BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Grundman made the remasters from a pre-masters tape, not his own original masters???

AFAIK those were made from the mixdown master tapes, i.e. not the multitrack ones but the ones where everything is mixed, and now only the mastering has to happen. There is currently even a trend of taking these "unmastered" recordings and stamping them on vinyl, sort of as a "what the artist heard and not what the mastering engineer made of it" version.

http://entertainment.hows...rding4.htm

I'm not sure I understand. A recording can either be:

#1/ Unmastered (as recorded and mixed by the artist)

#2/ Mastered (using the unmastered recording above aka #1)

#3/ Remastered (from sratch, using the unmastered recording above aka #1)

#4/ Remastered (using the original master aka #2, because the unmastered recording aka #1 is lost or unavailable)

If I understand correctly, a record company (WB in that case) only have a copy of #2, which is what the original Prince releases were made with, unless of course the artist also has to deliver #1 to the record company, or unless Bernie G. kept a copy of #1 in his own vault, that WB could use. If not, Bernie G. could only remaster #2, and therefore the vinyl "remasters" are #4, which means only Prince can deliver #3 when and if he gets his catalogue back.

So are the vinyl remasters #3 or #4?

Chas said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

My theory that even if they revert to him he's not necessarily want to get them out as remasters..

Why?

1) It means years of meetings and discussions with WB. He spent years trying to be 'free' he's hardly likely to want to go back to that. This I can sympathise with, like going back to an old employer who you weren't happy with.

2) He probably figures he's got enough money already and is thinking what would I prefer, Freedom from WB or Money?

3) I doubt even without working with WB, other record companies couldn't or wouldn't take on the new remasters as there are probably a myraid of legal issues over it.

4) Prince would have to promote them. Something he wouldn't want to do again.

5) Prince talks about living in the now and not the past, coming out with these would mean he would keep going over the past. As he is now a JW i doubt he would sanction a re-release of Darlin Nikki or Head or Sister!

6) He would only probably release them if all the revenue etc went straight to him and not WB execs who he's never met. The only way he could do that is ONLINE and given his views on digital music unlikely.

7) Could reopen rights/royalty payment issues with former bandmembers, again dragging up the past.

However, I think they should be out there, his music is so great it's worthy of an excellent remasters package but the more I think about it, the more the above reasons make sense as to why he might not allow it for the time being or at least in his lifetime.

[Edited 10/8/12 13:49pm]

I think you nailed it. We won't see any kind of remasters until after he's dead. WB may keep rehashing the old stuff, and release a few more "Very Best Of..." CDs. But I think if there was a buck to be made off of Prince and they didn't need his permission, they'd have a box set out for each of the albums. Remastered with a bonus DVD and some vinyl and a poster, etc. I would assume a remastered album would at the very least break even, even in today's market. They would be able to sell it as "You've heard the music, now hear the sound..." or something clever like that. I was looking at my Purple Rain CD that I got in 1985. I'm sure CD mastering technology is light years past what it was then.

Oh well, dare 2 dream.

My $0.02

Chas

Thanks Chas.

Agreed about the CDs, the irony is that CDs sound great if the recordings are made on the basis that it will be going to CD.

Think of Dire Straits' Brothers In Arms from 1985 which sounded amazing as it was designed especially for CD. As many of Prince's albums were recorded for vinyl/cassette, with the CDs coming later, the CDs do show up the 'limitations of the source tape' as the standard CD blumph says!

Vinyl definately has an 'energy' about it that somehow doesn't seem to transfer to CD.

Also I think the conversion wasn't done that well, as someone else here noticed, SOTT sounds way too quiet and I'd have to agree!!

[Edited 10/15/12 11:00am]

databank said:

I did not ask what tapes Bernie used. Most likely they were the same generation as whatever was used to cut the original vinyl back in the early 1980s. But the reissues sound better than the originals in my opinion, and I haven't heard anyone say otherwise.

electricberet said:

databank said:

I'm not sure I understand. A recording can either be:

#1/ Unmastered (as recorded and mixed by the artist)

#2/ Mastered (using the unmastered recording above aka #1)

#3/ Remastered (from sratch, using the unmastered recording above aka #1)

#4/ Remastered (using the original master aka #2, because the unmastered recording aka #1 is lost or unavailable)

If I understand correctly, a record company (WB in that case) only have a copy of #2, which is what the original Prince releases were made with, unless of course the artist also has to deliver #1 to the record company, or unless Bernie G. kept a copy of #1 in his own vault, that WB could use. If not, Bernie G. could only remaster #2, and therefore the vinyl "remasters" are #4, which means only Prince can deliver #3 when and if he gets his catalogue back.

So are the vinyl remasters #3 or #4?

I did not ask what tapes Bernie used. Most likely they were the same generation as whatever was used to cut the original vinyl back in the early 1980s. But the reissues sound better than the originals in my opinion, and I haven't heard anyone say otherwise.

Thanks for the precision

databank said:

You can always email Bernie Grundman Mastering yourself and try to find out more:

http://www.berniegrundman...ntact.html
[Edited 10/15/12 12:10pm]

electricberet said:

Tremolina said:

No that makes no sense, because the vinyl releases weren't true remasters and were released by Rhino, which is owned by Warner.

Can you define "true remasters?"

merely improving all the sound of the ultimate master tape could already be called a form of remastering as far as I am concerned, but a true remaster is a re-work/improvement of the original multi track tapes, i.e. not changing the originally recorded music and performance - but only improving the sound and chohesion of all the recorded tracks together, resulting in a sonically new and much improved mixed master tape on all levels.

[Edited 10/15/12 12:16pm]

Tremolina said:

In other words, a remix. No, the vinyl reissues are not remixed.

electricberet said:

Tremolina said:

merely improving all the sound of the ultimate master tape could already be called a form of remastering as far as I am concerned, but a true remaster is a re-work/improvement of the original multi track tapes, i.e. not changing the originally recorded music and performance - but only improving the sound and chohesion of all the recorded tracks together, resulting in a sonically new and much improved mixed master tape on all levels.

In other words, a remix. No, the vinyl reissues are not remixed.

any remix or re-recording ultimately results in a new or "re-master".

the term "master" is often interpretated differently but legally "master" merely means that it is the recording used for the original pressing of a published recorded song/ album, the "source" recording from which all copies are made of so to speak.

there are usually many more (pre)recordings than only that one. a demo or live recording therefore might just as well serve as "master" too. it all depends.

[Edited 10/15/12 12:37pm]

As has been said, once Prince gets his masters back, he could fuck them up by remixing them. Phil Spector, who has always owned his stuff and never "belonged" to a label, did something similar quite recently.

Think of it like what George Lucas did to the original Star Wars. Nobody wanted it, but we got it regardless LOL.

Thing is, if Prince does FINALLY decide to reissue the old albums himself, which company will he use to distribute them, or will he do it himself?

At least we got his movies on DVD LOL. Very telling that when we got the aniversary DVD of "Purple Rain" that we got no new remaster of the album. Prince obviously doesn't own the rights to his cinema movies LOL.