Putting it bluntly, "Did Prince F himself when he left Warner Bros."

Because he when he left Warner Bros. he got Black Balled from Radio and he's had only a few hits played nationally on the Radio.

Hence hes confined to his 80's hits in concerts (Greatest Hits Concert).

Yea or Nea?

I've often wondered this myself... he has complete artistic control, maybe that was more important to him than hits. Would he still be played on the radio if he were on a major label? Many of his contemporaries struggle to be heard even if they stuck with the majors.

I guess only he knows EXACTLY what he wanted and whether or not he got what he wanted out of it all. Who knows how things would have been if he stayed with WEA... we can only speculate.

Yea, which boils down to for most once you've reached a certain age nobody gives a darn about your arse no matter how good your stuff is.

Astasheiks said:

Putting it bluntly, "Did Prince F himself when he left Warner Bros."

Because he when he left Warner Bros. he got Black Balled from Radio and he's had only a few hits played nationally on the Radio.

Hence hes confined to his 80's hits in concerts (Greatest Hits Concert).

Yea or Nea?

Yes, he did f*ck himself, commercially. However, no, he didn't get blackballed from radio. He just stopped writing songs that appealed to the masses for the most part. Quite a few tracks from Emancipation got radio play.

jtfolden said:

Astasheiks said:

Putting it bluntly, "Did Prince F himself when he left Warner Bros."

Because he when he left Warner Bros. he got Black Balled from Radio and he's had only a few hits played nationally on the Radio.

Hence hes confined to his 80's hits in concerts (Greatest Hits Concert).

Yea or Nea?

Yes, he did f*ck himself, commercially. However, no, he didn't get blackballed from radio. He just stopped writing songs that appealed to the masses for the most part. Quite a few tracks from Emancipation got radio play.

Really?, I didnt hear any.

No, if anything, he uplifted his popularity. He will remain admired for

prevailing over corporate America

That's crazy... did he fuck himself leaving Warner Bros?? Come on, seriously. Can you guess at what triumphs or failures Prince has had personally from leaving them? I don't think we can. We can say "yes, he fucked up"... but that is more from our own selfish needs from the man. We feel as if we have been fucked by Prince and WB... the only person who can say whether they are better off now from that is Prince himself....and, from looking around... I ain't seen the man on the Org.

thepope2the9s said:

jtfolden said:

Yes, he did f*ck himself, commercially. However, no, he didn't get blackballed from radio. He just stopped writing songs that appealed to the masses for the most part. Quite a few tracks from Emancipation got radio play.

Really?, I didnt hear any.

Yup. Betcha By Golly Wow and Somebody's Somebody went to #10 and #15 on the R&B airplay charts. BBGW went top 40 on Pop airplay, as well. The Holy River also saw play on pop radio.

Absolutely. But he makes more money now. And that's the ONLY thing that matters to him.

vitriol said:

Absolutely. But he makes more money now. And that's the ONLY thing that matters to him.

This.

Genesia said:

vitriol said:

Absolutely. But he makes more money now. And that's the ONLY thing that matters to him.

This.

but he does have less pop cultural power.

no, he just wrote less commercially appealing stuff and besides mainstream music has changed alot over the past 15 years. It went from great to weak, which is why there is so much nonsense on the radio today

He made the best decision of his career. He has made more money than he ever would have had he stayed signed with WB. Radio hits don't spell success. Rhianna gets radio play but I wager she can't fill up Madison Square without 4 or 5 name brand opening acts. Really any of the people in the top ten now actually. So in reality he laughs to the bank.

ufoclub said:

but he does have less pop cultural power.

But you can't BUY things (or people) and bathe yourself in bank notes with pop cultural power.

of course. 15 years later, is there even a debate?

of course he'd tell you that he gets to do what he wants and has control over it now and makes more money.

but I'm sure there a lot of things that he would like to be doing, controlling, and making money with that Warner Bros would be a very beneficial place to be. he won't make the music he owns online because iTunes and Amazon won't pay him an advance, yet the system that provides advance payments is the one he was pissing and moaning about so loudly for so long.

[Edited 1/1/11 11:41am]

For is career, ya. He has NO cultural power, most people don't know he exists. Its made even worse with his music not being made available online.

ManlyMoose said:

For is career, ya. He has NO cultural power, most people don't know he exists. Its made even worse with his music not being made available online.

most people don't know he exists? coulda fooled me 12/17 in jersey and 12/29 at the Garden. i'm sure there are disadvantages to working without a major label but people do know of Prince, he's already considered a legend, even if people are not aware of his new music.

[Edited 1/1/11 19:04pm]

Coming from someone who isn't as devoted as most people on here, yeah, he screwed himself over pretty badly when he started the whole Slave/ phase. TGE is a fantastic album, but that's exactly the time when he pretty much dropped right out of the mainstream.

If Prince earns more $ being independent then I'm happy for him. He made the right choice. However, fams would have gotten more goodies (box sets, dvds, posters, tours, television appearances, music etc) had he stayed. Just my 2 cent.

Prince can still pack MSG...

...without a record label promoting him

...without a video on music television programs

...without a current hit song on the radio

...without a typical CD release to promote.

So I'd have to say no he didn't. He's lasted 30 years in the music industry and over half of it was done on his terms and he's still here.

Despite the fans who feel Prince could've, should've, didn't do this or that his mark on music and his legacy are intact and assured.

HonestMan13 said:

So I'd have to say no he didn't. He's lasted 30 years in the music industry and over half of it was done on his terms and he's still here.

Despite the fans who feel Prince could've, should've, didn't do this or that his mark on music and his legacy are intact and assured.

Which is all well and good but it actually does NOT negate the fact that he may have done even better if he hadn't disappeared from mainstream view for years and years on end. His legacy might have been greater, had he not been lost in the wilderness.

jtfolden said:

HonestMan13 said:

So I'd have to say no he didn't. He's lasted 30 years in the music industry and over half of it was done on his terms and he's still here.

Despite the fans who feel Prince could've, should've, didn't do this or that his mark on music and his legacy are intact and assured.

Which is all well and good but it actually does NOT negate the fact that he may have done even better if he hadn't disappeared from mainstream view for years and years on end. His legacy might have been greater, had he not been lost in the wilderness.

Perhaps but what does "may have done even better" mean if you don't own your work if that is something that is important to you. Obviously whatever he may have benefitted from continuing with a label at the time, was less important than what he would gain as an independent artist. In the end its all about what's important to him. And despite what people say, based on what HonestMan13 stated, I think his legacy is already set and P knows it. What I witnessed December 17 and 29 did not look like someone who's legacy was in jeapordy to me.

[Edited 1/2/11 16:56pm]

jtfolden said:

HonestMan13 said:

So I'd have to say no he didn't. He's lasted 30 years in the music industry and over half of it was done on his terms and he's still here.

Despite the fans who feel Prince could've, should've, didn't do this or that his mark on music and his legacy are intact and assured.

Which is all well and good but it actually does NOT negate the fact that he may have done even better if he hadn't disappeared from mainstream view for years and years on end. His legacy might have been greater, had he not been lost in the wilderness.

So in other words Princes 'fan speculated greatness' could have exceeded his 'actual greatness'. He also could've burned out and became a junkie by the time gold Experience came out. If we're dealing in fantasy scenarios then anything positive or negative is possible. Warner Brothers could've destroyed his career just as easily as those who say that they would've saved it.

HonestMan13 said:

jtfolden said:

Which is all well and good but it actually does NOT negate the fact that he may have done even better if he hadn't disappeared from mainstream view for years and years on end. His legacy might have been greater, had he not been lost in the wilderness.

So in other words Princes 'fan speculated greatness' could have exceeded his 'actual greatness'. He also could've burned out and became a junkie by the time gold Experience came out. If we're dealing in fantasy scenarios then anything positive or negative is possible. Warner Brothers could've destroyed his career just as easily as those who say that they would've saved it.

What hilarious hyperbole. Again, what you state doesn't negate the fact that he could have done better. Whatever you think of his standing now, a great majority of his business/marketing decisions post-WB have been fraught with mistakes (particularly in the 90's) and failures.

Furthermore, to the idea that he "doesn't own his work"... and that going independent somehow helped that situation - there were always other alternatives on the table in regard to that. He kept the masters for TGE and yet it was still released via WB. He could have no doubt negotiated similar deals for future albums. As for past releases, he willingly signed those contracts. It was only when he had to actually work for his advances that he started whining about it.

jtfolden said:

HonestMan13 said:

So in other words Princes 'fan speculated greatness' could have exceeded his 'actual greatness'. He also could've burned out and became a junkie by the time gold Experience came out. If we're dealing in fantasy scenarios then anything positive or negative is possible. Warner Brothers could've destroyed his career just as easily as those who say that they would've saved it.

What hilarious hyperbole. Again, what you state doesn't negate the fact that he could have done better. Whatever you think of his standing now, a great majority of his business/marketing decisions post-WB have been fraught with mistakes (particularly in the 90's) and failures.

Furthermore, to the idea that he "doesn't own his work"... and that going independent somehow helped that situation - there were always other alternatives on the table in regard to that. He kept the masters for TGE and yet it was still released via WB. He could have no doubt negotiated similar deals for future albums. As for past releases, he willingly signed those contracts. It was only when he had to actually work for his advances that he started whining about it.

How do you know that for sure? No doubt Prince is the worst businessman, sometimes I don't understand the decisions he make, but again, what is "better" if those things is not important to the artist. Even if he would have done better and the artist is not happy then what is the point? How many artists have we heard complaining about the headaches of dealing with a major label. It does not always work out best for everyone. Again, what is important to Prince despite whatever failures or disadvantages of going indie. I think he's doing well for himself, despite whatever decision or lack there of he makes.

wonder505 said:

jtfolden said:

What hilarious hyperbole. Again, what you state doesn't negate the fact that he could have done better. Whatever you think of his standing now, a great majority of his business/marketing decisions post-WB have been fraught with mistakes (particularly in the 90's) and failures.

Furthermore, to the idea that he "doesn't own his work"... and that going independent somehow helped that situation - there were always other alternatives on the table in regard to that. He kept the masters for TGE and yet it was still released via WB. He could have no doubt negotiated similar deals for future albums. As for past releases, he willingly signed those contracts. It was only when he had to actually work for his advances that he started whining about it.

How do you know that for sure? No doubt Prince is the worst businessman, sometimes I don't understand the decisions he make, but again, what is "better" if those things is not important to the artist. Even if he would have done better and the artist is not happy then what is the point? How many artists have we heard complaining about the headaches of dealing with a major label. It does not always work out best for everyone. Again, what is important to Prince despite whatever failures or disadvantages of going indie. I think he's doing well for himself, despite whatever decision or lack there of he makes.

Metallica, R.E.M., U2... they all got ownership of their work, not by complaining about it ad nauseum, throwing a public tantrums, and with work stoppages, but by waiting for the next contract negotiations coming around, making it a priority, and accepting less money up front so that they could get what they wanted. Prince doesn't see business this way. He insists on having the money up front AND also getting everything else he wants. His recent comments about not putting his music online because iTunes won't pay him an advance is indicative of this. He wants it all at the same time, because he thinks he deserves it. Which is fine, if he's dealing with people in business who are as bad as he is at it and are willing to give him more and more while getting less in return. But there aren't a lot of people willing to do that.

errant said:

wonder505 said:

How do you know that for sure? No doubt Prince is the worst businessman, sometimes I don't understand the decisions he make, but again, what is "better" if those things is not important to the artist. Even if he would have done better and the artist is not happy then what is the point? How many artists have we heard complaining about the headaches of dealing with a major label. It does not always work out best for everyone. Again, what is important to Prince despite whatever failures or disadvantages of going indie. I think he's doing well for himself, despite whatever decision or lack there of he makes.

Metallica, R.E.M., U2... they all got ownership of their work, not by complaining about it ad nauseum, throwing a public tantrums, and with work stoppages, but by waiting for the next contract negotiations coming around, making it a priority, and accepting less money up front so that they could get what they wanted. Prince doesn't see business this way. He insists on having the money up front AND also getting everything else he wants. His recent comments about not putting his music online because iTunes won't pay him an advance is indicative of this. He wants it all at the same time, because he thinks he deserves it. Which is fine, if he's dealing with people in business who are as bad as he is at it and are willing to give him more and more while getting less in return. But there aren't a lot of people willing to do that.

like I said, not the best businessman, but its what's important to him, as the one creating the work. He ain't hurting regardless of failures and decisions that don't make sense even if he could make more.

wonder505 said:

errant said:

Metallica, R.E.M., U2... they all got ownership of their work, not by complaining about it ad nauseum, throwing a public tantrums, and with work stoppages, but by waiting for the next contract negotiations coming around, making it a priority, and accepting less money up front so that they could get what they wanted. Prince doesn't see business this way. He insists on having the money up front AND also getting everything else he wants. His recent comments about not putting his music online because iTunes won't pay him an advance is indicative of this. He wants it all at the same time, because he thinks he deserves it. Which is fine, if he's dealing with people in business who are as bad as he is at it and are willing to give him more and more while getting less in return. But there aren't a lot of people willing to do that.

like I said, not the best businessman, but its what's important to him, as the one creating the work. He ain't hurting regardless of failures and decisions that don't make sense even if he could make more.

what's important to him is clearly the money. the ownership issue didn't come up til he wanted to leave and realized he didn't own his own work after spending all that money on videos for unreleased songs

i would have signed for less,got the masters,then done the whole slave,symbol,release mince on warner lets get outta here routine in that order.And once i moved on end up with record deals for 2-3 albums with other labels instead.it makes more sense.And i would also give the internet a better chance.

errant said:

wonder505 said:

like I said, not the best businessman, but its what's important to him, as the one creating the work. He ain't hurting regardless of failures and decisions that don't make sense even if he could make more.

what's important to him is clearly the money. the ownership issue didn't come up til he wanted to leave and realized he didn't own his own work after spending all that money on videos for unreleased songs

Maybe. I always took it to be that he saw he was OWING money by not being a hit under his new contract and that sort of looking like funny money, which it does (and probly is). Since the advance for the next album was predicated on the success of the previous album, you can see how disappointed and infuriated he would've been to sign a new contract and reneg on the benefits immediately.