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Reply #120 posted 03/02/10 12:14pm

NDRU

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violetblues said:

I honestly do not think it is about using vintage anything or The Linn.
Prince's music was a breath of fresh air when it was first released, the structure in some ways, and yes the instruments played too, but not BECAUSE of the instruments, but because it was a fresh approach and fresh sounds, sounds we were not hearing on the radio or anywhere else.

When I hear about using "real instruments by real people" or the use of "vintage synths" "producers" "over production" or the "The Lynn" i roll my eyes because none of that was ever the appeal of his music. Nostalgia was never a part of his appeal, it was more a raw brashness and about innovation.

Sure those instruments and such are cool but there were other artists in the 80's using the same stuff, but the end product was just as tired as if they were using kazoos or banjos. Likewise if Prince was using kazoos and banjos in 83 the results would probably sound pretty innovative and cool.
Its not about using the finest oil paints and brushes or most sophisticated or expensive software its about whats inside the artist and the end result.

While I'm sure Prince's virtuosity has only grown since he was in his 20's and able to afford more time, media, and support for all his artistic whims, it still boils down to the artist and not the tools, producers or anything else.

The same artist can change too. Witness 1983's "1999" compared to his actual 1999 version. Witness 2010's Minneapolis sound to 1983's Minneapolis sound.

He has a lot more resources at his disposal at this point in his career. "Cause and Effect" is where he is at right now as an artist. To me "Cause and Effect" is what it sounds like when your art pallets are brimming with the best oil paints and finest brushes, the best canvases and best staff. But if an artist has nothing new to say, and ties mix all those individually gorgeous blues and gorgeous reds and yellows, and all those other gorgeous colors on your canvas you always get a muddy brown. To me "Cause and Effect" sounds like the muddy brown you get.
adding a Linn or live drumming, or even the whole kitchen sink and a pony will not help.
[Edited 3/2/10 6:35am]


true, the only way using old tools would make a difference is if they happened to inspire the artist to create in a different way.

But they're just tools, not inspiration in and of themselves.
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Reply #121 posted 03/02/10 12:16pm

Mindflux

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citrus said:

Mindflux said:



Only some of it. Some of what you say, requires a "belief"....a "new-age faith" because there is no science to back it up.

Yes, the body runs on electricity and everything we experience is down to an electrical impulse.

Certain rhythms and sounds do have a differing effect on humans - certain frequencies, for example, have been shown to alter the brainwave state, like moving from alpha to beta state.

It also can't be denied that a song captures a feeling of the moment, just as a photograph preserves a moment of history. There is also no doubt that music can contain healing properties (as well as others).

The universe is also made of vibration - matter itself is a vibration that is slow enough for us to see it and experience it. The universe possesses it's own frequency too - the "background" noise from the big bang. Even the ancient Hindu religion acknowledges this, as the "Ohm" in Hindu represents the "sound" of the universe.

All of that is sound (pun intended) reasoning! Where you start to reach is with your accusations about modern recording techniques.

My first problem with it is that all recording techniques are essentially modern, in comparison to both human and musical history. Mankind has been playing music ever since we were banging things and singing around fires, tens of thousands of years ago. Music has ALWAYS been important to humans, because it mirrors the rhythms and order found in nature.

We have only been able to record sound for a very short period of time, just over 100 years.....any method of recording sound is a modern invention. But your theory that being able to view a soundwave means the innocence is lost is a stretch - if anything, it gives you a further insight in to the behaviour of the sound and there is nothing wrong with that.

There is no reason you can give me that analogue recording is somehow closer to nature than making a digital recording. An analogue recording involves converting electrical current to magnetic, to order the magnetic particles on a tape. So, by your same logic, you could argue that recording to tape actually transforms the wave you recorded in to a different type of energy (hence why analogue recordings are generally less faithful than a digital recording.

I don't see why you could make an exception for recording with a computer, as a computer is actually much closer in essence to how we as humans operate! It runs on electricity itself and receives all its instruction and calculates things based on electrical signals turning themselves on and off - just like the human body does.

As I said before, your argument seems to be solely with using digital technology as a recording medium and you appear to be confusing a nostalgia for the past, your belief in the all pervasive electrical information in nature with the belief that a computer, somehow, absorbs all the life out of something and makes it artificial.....but that simply isn't true.

Digital recording is new, but it is more accurate, providing a more faithful representation of the recorded sound, which is the ultimate goal. I would have thought, then, that this would be a shared goal of yours - preserving, as best as possible, the original, perhaps "Sacred" sound that you were producing. For me, it is more "natural" for the computer to digitise information in a similiar way to our brains, than taking a signal and converting it in to something else (magnetic energy) as was our only means of storage before. And the simple error of trying to equate any modern recording technique with thousands of years of producing music but being unable to capture and preserve it, it was is far-reaching for me in your arguments.

I hope you can see that I agree with a lot of what you say, but I disagree strongly with your position against computers, as it doesn't seem to follow the same logic you are applying to your argument for analogue recording.

Peace


hi there smile

no offense but i've said this twice now - i'm not talking about the difference between analogue and digital recording - i'm talking about HOW to record 'properly' on either, with the main focus at this point being on the difference between 'samples' instead of midi-triggered events - whether you record onto digital or analogue doesn't matter - that was my first main point in this thread.

i fully respect what you've recently written, and i don't mean to rain on your parade, but there is science to back up what i've said. just because you and others don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesnt exist lol

you may like to start here and work your way through...
http://www.goldenmean.inf...algravity/

music asks us to be blind devotees. (ask Stevie Wonder)

heart


Its cool - oh and, by the way, that is definitely not raining on my parade! Its precisely why I said what you are talking about is a form of faith - it is belief with no real evidence. Nice theories, but not necessarily true either. A bit like "What the Bleep Do We Know" and "The Secret" (you've probably seen them) - both have nice, humanist, spiritaul and positive ideas but are not based on solid facts!

I did get the fact you had said that you weren't talking about analogue vs digital (and I know you said it twice - so, here's something I asked twice "What is it you do as a musician?"....and got not response! Why? I only want to know if you play as a hobby or professionally, whether you're "just" a musician or also a producer and/or engineer and, possibly, if there's anything of yours I can listen to, no matter what your level is.....why the reticence in giving me the answer?)but, seeing as you had said;

"computers have their place in recording, but not in the original source recording. for real, the last place you want to be looking when recording music, is at a computer screen watching soundwaves roll in."

well, that's you saying we should not record digitally! Even though you say that wasn't your argument, you did use it in your argument, so I didn't feel it was misplaced to counter it wink

As I said before, its really not necessary to be as purist as you appear to want to be (but, also, there is nothing wrong with the pursuit of recording excellence either wink). Whatever the methods, if the end result is great music, then it doesn't matter much about the "how".

Its all good bro - its cool to chat with a fellow cat.....keep on miaowing wink
[Edited 3/2/10 12:25pm]
...we have only scratched the surface of what the mind can do...

My dance project;
www.zubzub.co.uk

Listen to any of my tracks in full, for free, here;
www.zubzub.bandcamp.com

Go and glisten wink
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Reply #122 posted 03/02/10 4:31pm

citrus

Mindflux said:

"computers have their place in recording, but not in the original source recording. for real, the last place you want to be looking when recording music, is at a computer screen watching soundwaves roll in."

well, that's you saying we should not record digitally!


hi there biggrin

ever heard of a digital multi-track recorder? it's like a mixing desk with a built in drive. the only screen you see is the one tellin you ur levels and a few other things, but definitely no soundwaves.

it works totally separate from a computer and in my opinion, it's the best way to record audio.

i'd love to discuss 'cause and effect' and the irony of how much the production of that song has pretty much proven everything i've said, but i understand how some would prefer a scientific explanation: sort of like wanting proof of love.

anyway thanks for the note mindflux, and i hope i cleared up that thing about digi multi-tracks having nothing to do with computers or looking at soundwaves.

thumbs up!
2039 all treasures retrieved
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Reply #123 posted 03/02/10 5:00pm

Mindflux

avatar

citrus said:

Mindflux said:

"computers have their place in recording, but not in the original source recording. for real, the last place you want to be looking when recording music, is at a computer screen watching soundwaves roll in."

well, that's you saying we should not record digitally!


hi there biggrin

ever heard of a digital multi-track recorder? it's like a mixing desk with a built in drive. the only screen you see is the one tellin you ur levels and a few other things, but definitely no soundwaves.

it works totally separate from a computer and in my opinion, it's the best way to record audio.

i'd love to discuss 'cause and effect' and the irony of how much the production of that song has pretty much proven everything i've said, but i understand how some would prefer a scientific explanation: sort of like wanting proof of love.

anyway thanks for the note mindflux, and i hope i cleared up that thing about digi multi-tracks having nothing to do with computers or looking at soundwaves.

thumbs up!


No, you didn't - because a digital multi-track records in exactly the same way as a computer, that is DIGITALLY in 1s and 0s. They are the same thing, regardless of whether you can "see" the soundwave or not.

For some reason, perhaps a lack of sound musical background (which is certainly viable given the mish-mash of terms you present!), you have become patronising - so, clearly, we should end the discussion here.
...we have only scratched the surface of what the mind can do...

My dance project;
www.zubzub.co.uk

Listen to any of my tracks in full, for free, here;
www.zubzub.bandcamp.com

Go and glisten wink
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Reply #124 posted 03/02/10 5:31pm

violetblues

NDRU said:



true, the only way using old tools would make a difference is if they happened to inspire the artist to create in a different way.

But they're just tools, not inspiration in and of themselves.


Well said.
Whether something is scrawled with your finger in the dirt, a pencil, a typewriter, a Commodore Vic 20, or a MacBook Pro with all the bells & whistles, if you have something interesting to say with your art it doesn't really matter.
[Edited 3/2/10 17:32pm]
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Reply #125 posted 03/02/10 5:31pm

citrus

Mindflux said:

citrus said:



hi there biggrin

ever heard of a digital multi-track recorder? it's like a mixing desk with a built in drive. the only screen you see is the one tellin you ur levels and a few other things, but definitely no soundwaves.

it works totally separate from a computer and in my opinion, it's the best way to record audio.

i'd love to discuss 'cause and effect' and the irony of how much the production of that song has pretty much proven everything i've said, but i understand how some would prefer a scientific explanation: sort of like wanting proof of love.

anyway thanks for the note mindflux, and i hope i cleared up that thing about digi multi-tracks having nothing to do with computers or looking at soundwaves.

thumbs up!


No, you didn't - because a digital multi-track records in exactly the same way as a computer, that is DIGITALLY in 1s and 0s. They are the same thing, regardless of whether you can "see" the soundwave or not.



no they're not the same thing because they each respond to how you interact with those tools.

ur eliminating the effect of your participation, and how your participation in the recording process is directly affected by what your external senses are subjected to.

but yes i agree we should end the discussion here as it appears to me that your main interest is to disprove and argue with what i say, rather than ask a humble question and investigate whether or not what i am saying is true.

maybe i've said things that are true, and some day, you might realise it, the penny will drop and you'll be in your studio thinking 'wow actually that does sound different' but that day won't be today because your focus is on defending what you already know to be true, instead of welcoming a different perspective.

music equipment is never stand-alone. no one piece of equipment or instrument ever does the same thing as the next. the variables are endless because the crucial core point of connection, the source code of every song, is the artist, and if ur a self-produced artist, you wanna be sure ur using the right tools in the right way to maximise the creative process and over-all quality of your production to create LIVING MUSIC.

this is. after-all a discussion about CONSCIOUS MUSIC after-all, but seeing as the aim around here is to disprove rather than investigate, there doesn't seem to be much point talking about any of it.

wishing you all the best with your music mindlfux, and no i wasnt being patronising. you just interpreted it that way.

cheers mate take care
peace
2039 all treasures retrieved
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Reply #126 posted 03/02/10 5:37pm

violetblues

.
[Edited 3/2/10 17:59pm]
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