See, here's what I have a problem with. I seem to see lots of posts from people who say Prince can do whatever he likes with his music, and that it's understandable he wouldn't want people picking through his "garbage," - etc. - basically I'm talking about most of the posts from this thread:

http://www.prince.org/msg/7/116382

My question is this....unless the people making these arguments do not own any bootlegs whatsoever, I can't figure out how they reconcile owning and loving a boot with their agreement with Prince's stance that it is somehow not even okay to DISCUSS them.

I'm not trying to start beef with anyone. Many people who I know and love personally posted in that thread talking about how while THEY own a couple bootlegs that they love, we should respect Prince's wishes. Okay, then send in your bootlegs - otherwise, y'ain't practicing what you preach. Does anyone think I'm missing something, or do you agree that this is an inconsistent stance?

Hey
I can be a sinner, admit it and yet wish I wasn't...but sometimes you can't help it.


Get it?

I do think you're missing something, Blue.

While I don't necessarily take the stance you're talking about, I can understand the people who do.

Owning bootlegs doesn't mean one can't also take the position that it's Prince's right to do what he wants with his music. To my knowledge, these folks aren't saying "I agree with everything Prince says; bootlegs are wrong and I'm wrong for owning them." They're simply acknowledging that can exercise his legal rights as he sees fit.

FunkMistress said:

I'm stealing from NuPwrSoul but it's the best advice I've heard ever when it comes to Prince and his decisions that seem to piss off fans.

I hope this thread doesn't get locked because it is a very good one.

Bluey,

I am one of those people you are talking about. Yes, I love the boots I own but at the end of the day, someone stole something from someone and in turn sold that something to someone else who sold it and so on. Stealing's wrong. It's just that simple for me and I know it's blaphemy but if I had never heard a single one of the boots I own, my life would not be completely different. I would have continued to buy Prince releases just as other Prince fans who don't have access to boots. A lot of the stuff I own has crappy sound quality and some of it just downright sucks. I won't take any moral high ground on this but I would personally never ever pay for a bootleg, especially at some of the incredibly high prices I have seen them at. If Prince wants me to send him a bunch of CDRs, cool.

FunkMistress said:

Well put.

What Prince has a right to do and what *I* personally think he should do are two different things. You can respect the path a person is on without necessarily agreeing with it. I don't think it's hypocritical at all to own bootlegs while saying the man's completely within his rights to wage his little purple crusade against 'em. Hell, he's only making his bootlegs more sought after and valuable by doing so....so really, the more you dig on his bootlegs, the more you keep the paisley food chain going strong.

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

the only way i'd consider sending prince ANYthing is if he knocked it off with this "cease and desist" legal stormtrooper of doom schtick, engaged in a direct and open dialog with his fans on the subject, and appealed to us as an artist and a fellow human being without having to speak through other people or rely on word games or freakin' metaphors about pharoahs and woodchucks and whatnot. even then, i feel like there was a time when the circulation of bootlegs was an accepted part of the culture of being a prince fan, and that it's kind of folly to expect fans to turn in all that wonderful music just because there's been a shift in his "Xpectations".

Anxiety said:

OdysseyMiles said:

Beat me too it sister! That woodchuck line was stellar!

i just wish it could be a fruitful discussion for fans to talk about how bootlegs have enhanced the careers of other prolific artists, and how they've made lemons from lemonade and beat the bootleggers at their own game. it's all fine and well to say "it's prince's music with which he can do what he pleases" - yeah, that's true - but the damage has been done. the boots are out there. trading bootlegs is part of the cultue, whether he likes it or not. he's gonna have to send his goons to every mailbox of every fan and have them stand vigil every day if he really wants to crack down. and that doesn't even account for trading online. the true "problem" eclipses the well-meaning ideals of intellectual property at this point.

the no-brainer here is that if there was official "beat the boots" product made available, fans would chuck their bootlegs with the quickness and the bootleggers would find it harder and harder to make a buck off the fans, and the money would be directed back to the artist. zappa did this very successfully, bob dylan's bootlegs have been making the scene as legit product...heck, they're even talking about how brian wilson's official release of "smile" is gonna sweep the grammys next year! so releasing the boots is not only a popular option, but one that can pay off like mad.

but of course, we know prince knows this. and we know that's not an option.

so, to quote his own song, "what do u want me 2 do, babe?"

Well said...as I say...If you can't beat em...join em to quote another P song. This has been going on for years and will continue. Find a way to beat the game.

Here's how...record every single performance and offer it on your website and make as many as get ordered. That way for the HEAVY collector, they would buy it and for those of us that want the show we went to...we can pick that one. I think this would even interest the regular fan...if they were able to "capture" the show and keep it with them forever.

And for the past stuff...get the best of the best boots and cut the bootleggers off by the balls. Make copies of what they are selling for half price (heck they are already recorded) and offer them on his site. Boot the bootleggers!

THe thing is, how many of us that would buy/trade a bootleg, would also buy an official copy of the CD if released? I dare say a hefty majority of us would, because like Prince is supposedly, we are all about the music. Prince expects us to be herded around like blinded cattle, while he speaks one thing and does another. Who remembers the crusade he was on to release Gold. WHy do we have to rally to his causes, but be damned if we want some new music from a now less than prolific artist. What about the whole Slave thing. Why did he want out of the contract? To release as much music as he wants, but now that he is "free" we get $100 hat boxes. Thanks for the gesture.

I would not even be a fan if I had not heard "Rock Hard in a Funky place" from a friends Black Album bootleg. I don't buy/trade bootlegs (anymore) and I totally understand the arguement of intellectual property rights, however all I am saying is give the fans a little something, they have been there for him for his career. I have alot of respect for artists like the Grateful Dead who allowed their fans to plug into the soundboards, hell I would even pay for that honor, but with Prince we all have to be fed like little children and at daddy's pace.

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

Sweet thang (don'tchaknowyermyeverythang)...

You said:

Naw, it ain't blasphemy, that's just your truth - thanks for explaining that. I guess I take for granted that the outtakes and live shows have blown everyone else's ass away FAAAAAR more consistently over the last 15 years than any of his official releases. Far, far, far more consistently.

I would definitely not be here now if it were not for the outtakes and live releaes that I have. And while I have lots of shitty sounding stuff, I also have HOURS and HOURS and HOURS of really good, soundboard or close quality outtakes, alternate mixes and live shows that I listen to with a much greater frequency than any of the official releases.

Now I understand. Thanks, y'all!

And Ivy, give yerself a nice sloppy kiss for me.

FunkMistress said:

While I totally agree with you on this, yes Prince does have the right to prosecute those that break legal rights with his music, does it neccasarily mean he should?

Forgetting this whole notion of wrong and right, lets take into considerations how many rights we do have and those that we break on a daily basis. I have the right to own a gun, it doesnt mean I HAVE TO GET ONE, right? I have the right to sue if I'm let go from a job without being paid for the time I worked, doesn't mean I SHOULD/WILL SUE. How many times have you jay-walked, which is breaking the law, went 45mph in a 25mph zone...but you didn't get tickets for them. My point is, no man-made law, rule or standard is absolute and all are far from perfect.
Using the law to bend to your favor because you can doesn't mean you should. I think we need to look at the real crimes out in the world and say "is it really worth this much time, money, and effort to rid the world of bootlegging?"

When it comes to the issue of bootlegging, there is NO way you can stop it. The music is out, why cry over spilled milk...why spend millions of dollars pursuing a matter that will never be solved. You can't regulate everything, its impossible. Yes, can't stop the waves from crashing right?

I'm not disappointed, surprised or MAD at Prince for doing this, I've seen it SOO MANY times in the past that I don't even care anymore. I just know that in time, another incarnation of trading boots will spring up as usual. The next step is to get us all individually, that's impossible. Too many and if you get one, you only make martyrs out of us.

Is this the world Prince wants us to live in?? To battle each other in hate over music, when its really about $$$ and control? Is this what God wants for us? Come on, whats this world coming to when we consider all that is evil in the world and throw in unreleased music as one of those evils. Its not hurting anyone, no one gets killed, mentally scarred, physically damaged and not even financially damaged over listening to music, right? (Yes, remember he was NUMBER #1 AT THE BANK after Crystal Ball was released)

In the end, it IS just music, a true and remarkable gift given to us by God for enjoyment, enlightment and experience. When we start controling this gift, then just another freedom is taken away from us in life. One of the few good things, for some of us, in our lives is taken away. That just strips us of another shred of happiness in this very difficult world to understand and take in.

Does music really mean this much to us, sure it does. It is worth, crying, killing, hating or balling over...no get over it! Its not that important, right? But remember, when you say that to ppl that collect, appreciate and yes obsess over unreleased music....remember that you can also say the same to Prince. Its not THAT important!! It may be HIS MUSIC, but it's also, JUST MUSIC too.

Prince, you want to go after the sellers, fine, go...but leave the HQ trading alone. They do you no harm and makes no profits from what they do. In the end, you are just wrong for persecuting fans that helped you get to where you are.

My 0.02 cents....
[Edited 9/30/04 12:52pm]

theblueangel said:

See, I don't own a lot of stuff and maybe I would feel differently if I did. I have been trying to see this from the other side and I can understand, kinda but I equate it (selling boots) to going to work for eight hours a day, 40 hours a week and someone else getting paid for it.

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

True, but how many ppl make money off YOUR work on a daily basis. Ppl benefit from your work at your job and in the end, they end up reaping the benefits over your work, this relates to everyone. Look at those poor folk at McDonalds, they work HARD for what $8.25 an hour?? How rich is McDonalds??? Hmm?? How about UPS drivers that make "good" livings, but end up having knee, back, joint problems later in their life, they suffer injuries, yet UPS is a thriving company who makes money off of these ppl. The point is, no matter what. Someone gets paid for what you do, and most of the time YOU deserve it more than they do, but you don't get it, they do. Its life my man, is Prince so great that he's above life? I think not.

I remember when Crystal Ball was released and quite a few people complained that alot of the songs on the album had already been released on bootlegs and they wated "new" material.

The man can't win.

If he doesn't release the "bootleg" material he's an asshole. If he does release it it's a waste because it's already been circulating as a boot.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

doeineffect said:

the problem is not that he realesed stuff that have been bootleg b4...but songs he put on that album was (in most part) the worst he had in the vault...I guess most people, like me, were waiting 4 others songs, that have been bootlegged 2, but way better and wanted.

It's complicated.

On one hand, an artist has the right to do what he pleases with his art - sell it - keep it - throw it away - destory it. On the other hand, the artist's biggest supporters collect any and everything he's done - even the stuff he chose not to "release" - because they love and appreciate his art. So in order to protect his art, he stops his truest fans from collecting it in whatever form they can get it in. In a way, he his censoring what art he wants his fans to have because there are some people out there profiting from his "unreleased" art.

How does an artist maintain his rights to what he creatively produces and not alienate his biggest fans? It's a dilemma.

DiminutiveRocker said:

doeineffect said:

There are always fans who want "new" material, my advise back then was don't buy the set if want "new" shit, just wait a while...


The fans who complained about the fact that most of the material on "Crystal Ball" had previously been released on bootlegs mostly complained about the fact that the bootleggers released "superior" versions of CB versions (full "uncut" versions instead of retardedly, blasphemously edited or "enhanced" versions: see "Crucial" and "Sexual Suicide" for example...) instead of Prince who could put bootleggers out of business by releasing the exact same bootlegged material in superior sound quality which would make bootlegs worthless...


As I said many times before "Crystal Ball" is just proof of how out of touch and removed Prince is from his fanbase...

Neversin.

doeineffect said:

Bingo.

I don't think it's an inconsistant stance. I seriously doubt that every single person that was a member of Housequake was just "discussing" boots. I also doubt that every single person who frequented that forum only traded. And unless you gave away your only copy of the boot without keeping a duplicate I don't think that anybody has a right to position a halo over his/her head and proclaim innocence.

As far as some fans being pissed/disappointed that Prince is excercising his rights, I liken the situation to the thief who picks someones pocket and then gets man when that person chases him down and beats the stew out of him.

And it seems to me you'd want to keep something like this on the downlow. You don't throw it up on a well known webpage which is the equivilient of it being in big flashing neon lights with signs saying 'BOOTLEGS, FIND OUT HOW TO GET EM' around it.

Just release Roadhouse Garden and the bootlegs will stop

Neversin said:

This is so true. The majority of the bootlegs I do own are from over 15 years ago and they're all on tape. I would rather listen to completely tape-hissed full versions of the boots I have than listen to their clear edited twins on CB.

It really does seem like a no-brainer: release the bootlegged material in superior sound and put the bootleggers out of business. He really can't lose. He could charge half of what bootleggers charge and make tons of money. He would have my business for sure because I'm just not willing to shell out $40 for a CD.

Ifsixwuz9 said:

Dear Blue Angel..
People are very often inconsistent. That in fact, is a constant. The thread should ethically end with the fact that bootlegs are illegal. Most of them are unfinished incomplete songs. To try and justify if with "If the Artist wanted the songs to be unheard, then the Artist should have had tighter control over them." This arguement is unethical. People have choice in life. Do I do what is wrong, or what is right. The good angel sits on your shoulder and says, don't download songs or buy bootlegs. The devils sits on the other shoulder and says do it, it won't hurt anyone. In fact, I believe it is the Artist who suffers. As I've said before, if the Artist wants the song to be published for the public, it would be so. If the Artist doesn't want it released, its THE ARTISTS perogative. That's the end of the debate/arguement. The intellectual property belongs to the Artist, to do with it as he/she pleases. So I ask you, Blue Angel..when faced with wrong, or right...which do you chooses?...It's actually a very easy choice

Many people I know, including myself, are paying - music buying fans today (for legit material) because of past bootlegs' impressions, and I do believe that the songs and recordings (bootleg or not)have an integrity unto themselves regardless of the artist's intention. It's really not important to me what Prince the actual person wants (I don't know him)... I'm only interested in Prince the artistic force and legacy which is constructed from listening and watching a lot of stuff, officially sanctioned by Prince or not.
[Edited 10/1/04 14:29pm]

ufoclub said:

I think you are getting me closer to understanding this whole thing. Thanks.