Let’s compare your music – your band, your CD, your mp3 site, your voice, to a can of Peanut Butter.

Specifically, SKIPPY, New and Improved! Honey-nut Peanut Butter.

Now, everybody loves peanut butter, right? Okay, no? Well then, let’s stop to think about who loves peanut butter.

Kids 2 – 20.

But those kids don’t buy groceries. Their parents do. So then, how do we sell the parents on Peanut Butter? That’s right. Advertising. But do we just to a massive global advertising campaign, anywhere and everywhere? If we were Windows, yes. But we’re Skippy Honey-Nut Peanut Butter. The suits aren’t going to pour that much money into the ad campaign, so this has to be effective.

So we have to have a pointed marketing plan. Go directly to the parents, when they’re thinking about their kids, when they’re also thinking about grocery shopping. That way, the light-bulb goes off in the right heads, at the right place.

Bingo! Parent Magazines and daytime programming. Heck – go sink a donation into Sesame Street for a 15-second spot talking about how Skippy Honey Nut Peanut Butter wants kids to be smater and how you support local public broadcasting.

So when mom-dad is at the grocery store and they look at their grocery list and see “Peanut Butter”, and look at the 50,000 different brands and flavors of peanut butter, they nod and reach for Skippy Honey Nut Peanut Butter because they saw the ad in Parenting magazine, and wow, Skippy supports Sesame Street – wow that’s so much better than running an ad on that Ninja Cow Fighter show that runs JIF

and bam, you’ve hit your target audience where they’re thinking about getting the stuff that you’re putting out there.

SO THEN.
- - - - -
Let’s put this approach to music.

First off. IDENTIFY YOUR MARKET. Think about 4 other bands that are on your level, in the arena that you intend to market to. Online, local music, whatever. Come up with FOUR. NOT ONE, FOUR. List their strengths and why you think they are big. List their typical audience, including age, income, sex, race, whatever you can do to narrow down your typical consumer.

[ Now – at this point there will be the argument that your music is global – it’s for everybody and anybody. Okay. Let’s come back to step one here. Before you position yourself as the next Beatles, you’ll need to think locally, finding just FIFTY people who will want to hear you more than once. ANYONE will listen to your music once if you hand it to them. You want to find the person who will want to hear more of your music. So this is where you have to find a group of people who are like minded in their appreciation of things – a TARGET AUDIENCE. Back to my point…]

So you have your person. For me, it’s classic rock dude. Sure, Prince fans dig my music too, but, the ones that seem to dig my stuff on the first listen, without giving it a second thought, are the beer-gut dudes who dig Clapton and Hendrix, SRV and (shivver) John Cougar. 30-50 white guy in the burbs. For you, it could be 14-20 black females who dig Beyonce. You have to be really honest with yourself about this one if you’ve never played out, never played your music anonymously to get somebody’s reaction… you have to think about who do you sound like. NOT who do you WANT to sound like, but who do you CURRENTLY sound like. And even then, go back to the list of local musicians you listed. Can you see yourself doing a double header with that group? Who is out in the audience?

Spend a lot of time on this part, because you will dedicate the rest of your marketing strategy to this group primarily.

Okay, when/if you’ve figured out your target audience, take a step back from that group and think about the bigger picture. Who else would like your music? For me, it’s Prince, blues, funky fans. Unfortunately, that’s a grey area. Prince fans (at this point in time) are an underground lot. So, let’s leave them alone for a sec. Blues/funky fans of live music. Because I’m not eletronic/house/rave. That cuts me out of most college radio, except for their blues / “soulternative” stuff, but even that last category – most “soulternative” college radio won’t touch a white guy unless they know the person. It’s sad but you have to be VERY realistic with yourself here.

So then, you’ve got your target audience – you have a visual picture in your head about that person – age, sex, race, income, location, (in-town? Suburb? Mall? Golf course?) and now we’ve got a bigger picture that actually applies to a music genre or two.

That first group of things are probably the most important in developing your career in the beginning. If you just go handing out CDs at the mall, you will build a following, but it’ll cost you tons in blank CDs. BUT, if you go to that same mall, knowing exactly what your target audience looks like, and what stores they shop in, BAM, you are now armed with just 20 CDs and you can bet that 10 of them will hook somebody in, if you know what to say to that person.

And that’s the hard part. You have to talk to somebody. You will always have to network, talk, face-to-face, on the phone, to a human. Posting music and hiding behind it is cute and makes for a great tormented artist image, but nobody will hear the amazing stuff you do.

Therefore, you have to come up with what they call the elevator speech. It’s a statement that you can throw at somebody in the time it takes to get on an elevator and get off in 5 floors. And you have to have yams the size of Christmas. It’s almost impossible to just walk up to somebody you do not know and say “hey, here’s a great record by me”. Period. Impossible. Well – you can do it, but very few people will take your CD home. They’ll take it, and put it in the trash when you’re not looking.

This elevator speech will also apply to your online posts, radio/paper communication, etc. You HAVE to sell yourself to a person in 30 seconds or less. Therefore, knowing who you want to sell to is as important as knowing what you’re selling.

I digress.

So then. Again, for me, it’s a game of “find the ‘dude’ at work/mall/movies/radio/reading paper” and sell them on my music. A question beats a statement everytime. A question that gets a yes beats a no everytime.

“do you like [hendrix/srv/clapton/sly/stevie wonder/prince/local music that I sound like]?” and that fill-in-the-blank part depends on the person you’re talking to. Do they look like local-music supporter? A local music supporter will ALWAYS pride themselves on knowing the hip bands in town over national acts. Ego, pride, whatever it is, they’re “in the know”, so you’re getting to them through their ego, stroking it, if you will.

“I just finished my CD, and [insert local DJ who plays your target music] said it sounds a lot like [insert that band]. Here – take this copy, if you dig it, shoot me an e-mail, I’m trying to get some people’s opinions of the stuff – kind of like a taste-test thing”. And HAVE THE CD IN YOUR HAND, extended towards them.

Here’s the catch:
YOU HAD BETTER be dead-on about your music. Any and all advice you will ever read starts with the un-said rule, “first of all, let’s assume you don’t suck”. I’m saying it. Polish your music as much as possible before you go handing it out on the “blind taste test” move. If your music sucks, you are wasting your time. Now, “your music sucks” is always debatable.

But here’s what’s not: crappy recording, sloppy production, sloppy package. You can do everything at home and still hand out a great package. Tune your guitars. Fix missed notes. Clean up any flubbed vocals. Print out labels, or get a friend to hand-write the label on the CD – make it look GOOD. Not perfect, but GOOD. These people will dig that you’re entrusting them with your music, unless it looks like you barely trust your music yourself.

Be sure your CD has contact info: website? Email? Whatever you want to put on there, make sure they can reach you once you hand out the music.

Okay. That’s the hardest way to build a following, but if you’re not gigging, if you’re just whipping up tracks in your basement and posting online, that’s your arena.

If you’re playing out live, do the exact same thing, but be sure you have flyers stuck in the CDs so they’ll know where to go see you live.

# # #

RADIO:

This one is tough because markets are different everywhere. Which radio stations are popular with your target audience? Because again, if you’re doing blues, then getting airplay on the classical station is airplay, but it won’t do anything for you. If you want to work effectively, again, you have to go where your target audience goes, meet them on their level.

So, let’s say you find some stations that play your kind of music. Do they HAVE a local music show? You’re gold. If not, you’re going to have to really work to get some attention, but it can be done.

Regardless of a local show or not, DO NOT just send a CD with a bio and wait for the magic to happen. Contact the DJ or DJs most likely to support local music. If there’s no local music show, it’s going to be the DJ who talks about what’s happening in your community, mentions local music heroes, does call-in spots from bars or on-site shows from the arena when the big band is playing.

Me, I prefer to e-mail the dude. If you call while they’re on the air, they want to hear your request and get you off the phone.

E-mail them a letter that basically says stuff similar to the Elevator speech: I sound like [band] and [some other local DJ NOT at that station] says I also sound like [second band]. I would like to send you a CD, just to get your opinion on the music. I’m trying to just figure out the market for this music. I really like it, yadda yadda”

DID the other DJ say you sound like [band 2]? No. So then, lie? Yes. Like I said, DJs, while cool people, are in a glass booth being told what to play, hell, half of them hate the music they’re playing. But if you get them thinking that somebody else has already heard you and digs you, then they’re more likely to at LEAST give you a listen for fear of the other DJ/Station getting bragging rights on finding the next Beyonce.

Again – your music better not suck at this point, or you’ll NEVER get an audience with that DJ again.

Most DJ’s are very cool in that they’ll write back. I got one to ask for the CD now, another asked me to send him a copy when it’s completely finished. I put one in the mail right away with a short bio, some photos, and a CD that was as professional as I could get it on my home computer/printer setup. These guys are getting 20-50 CDs a week. Don’t send them a coaster.

Follow up a week later – in e-mail – “hey, I sent that disc out, I hope you got it. I’d love to talk to you about it if you have the time – just trying to get some feedback from people in the industry” etc.

In Atlanta, there are 3 – 7 stations that will give a local musician the time of day. Since I’ve figured out that I’m reaching for the beergut crowd, I’m skipping the college stations entirely. I’m skipping the hip-hop and old-school funk stations. Why? For now, I want to focus just on reaching the target market first. Old School funk is next, but for now, try to reach the dudes. So that’s 3 stations, maybe 4 if I get the dude to hear my CD when it’s finished.

In your follow-up email – tell them 3 odd pieces of trivia about you and say you’d LOVE to do an interview or anything that might get a little publicity out there for the thing. That tends to work on the smaller stations… the bigger stations are interviewing Alec Baldwin about saving elephants or whatever, and rarely have the interest/time for local musicians that aren’t already huge.

# # #

PRINT:

This one is the toughest, to me. I haven’t done much in this area, so, my info will be speculative at best. Hopefully in 2-3 weeks, I’ll come back with a few success stories, but, for now, I’m doing the same thing I did with radio: identify the local press that would be picked up by your target audience, and contact the writers in those papers that specialize in local music. Most papers have somebody who handles it. If you don’t know who, just call the paper, they’ll tell you.

Of course, you can always BUY print. When my CD release party comes up in late August, I will put an ad in the entertainment magazine here in ATL. I’m hoping that they’ll also either run a review or interview me or something, who knows, but, to be sure of the exposure, IF I have the money/connections, I’m running an ad. Do you do that with every gig? Hell no. But this release party – I’m hoping to sell a lot of CDs at this thing, so, the more people I tell about it, the more money will come back to PAY for the expenses of advertising, flyering, etc.

But it would be awesome to avoid the expense. Since the bar will be making some money off of the party, maybe I can go in with them to buy the ad, who knows.

Lastly – ANY community event you get involved with – charity, playing music for kids, old people, donating proceeds to something, whatever – this will get you in the paper, IF YOU TELL THE PAPER about it. Until you’re huge and have a publicist, YOU have to do all the work. Period. NOBODY will ever contact you out of the blue about your music – not when every other band is contacting THEM.

Always think about that desk with 50 CDs on it. Always. You’re one of those 50 CDs. YOU have to draw attention to yourself, or end up being a coaster.

# # #

Booking a gig at a BAR/COFFEE HOUSE:

So, you’ve got the publicity. You’ve got some airplay maybe, you’ve gone out and maybe built up a tiny fan base, person by person. You need a gig now.

Never EVER EVER book a gig without a fan base. I’ve done it. We’ve all done it. The bar will not call you back, and you’ll hate life because you booked a show and the only people who came are friends or family, and they’re only there so you don’t cry at your empty show.

Honest. I’ve played to 6 people in a venue that holds 1500. Never make that mistake.

START SMALL. ALWAYS.
Pick a SMALL venue that hosts music similar to your style or at least attracts people in your target audience. This is where you look at your TA (target audience) and try to figure out what other music styles do they like? Which bars/coffee houses would they attend?

Contact the bar with numbers and information about the publicity you’ve been working. Don’t tell them how awesome your music is. Tell them how awesome your fan base is. A bar won’t book you because you sound good, they’ll book you because you will bring people to their venue. E-mail is the first step, but it’s best to follow up with a phone call, or better yet, go to the bar during off-hours, when you know that the booking person will be there, to drop off your music. It’s hard, but you can do it sometimes.

Again, you have to get creative here. That desk with 50 unopened CDs is in that bar as well. Your CD package has to REALLY stand out. I once put a tape in a large box with a can of pig brains, a bottle of warm beer, a photo-collage of my favorite singers and my favorite cereals, and a “worlds best dad” statuette. (Hell yes he remembered me and booked me. Did I already tell you about the 6 people in a 1500-person venue? I worked the booking, didn’t work the publicity or fan base.)

Sometimes you have to follow up several times to get them to book you. And sometimes, just give up and pick another joint.

Once you get the gig, your work is hardly over. There’s FLYERS and POSTERS. Go with 11X17 paper, black and white copies. Your band name in very big letters. If you know the other bands on the bill, you HAVE to post them. It’s a mutual respect thing. If you think you’re above it, you’ll find your posters torn down every time. On a poster, put a headline that reaches your audience. For me, it’s “MORE COWBELL!” for you, it could be “BOOTY FOR DAYS!” Whatever it is, you want it to be short and quick so your TA will see the poster and identify with it right away, get pulled in, and maybe, hopefully, remember that you have a gig.

FLYERS:
Go to other gigs that have similar sounds. Remember the list of 4 bands in your area? Those. Flyer places that are frequented by your TA. If you play metal, don’t flyer the coffee houses. If you play blues, don’t flyer the raves. Sure, there’s always one or two TAs at an unlikely spot, but we’re talking about working effectively here.

Between the time of the booking and the actual gig, do everything you can to get press/radio/tv about that show. If the DJ has heard your record and responded positively, write them and put them on the guest list and push for a quick radio interview about the new stage robot you got for this gig. Or whatever.

FESTIVALS:
That desk with 50 CDs? It just jumped to 300. Festivals book bands about 6-9 months in advance. Usually through a web site where you download the app, fill it out and mail it in. Do that, but call the office to see if you can drop it by. Get the name of the person you talk to. Call back two or three more times – due to delays, bad weather, whatever, CALL THAT PERSON TWO MORE TIMES before you drop off the package with the barbie doll and the bag of twizzlers in it. Say your name and your band’s name every time, and say THAT person’s name every time. They will remember you. And THEN YOU drop off your package and application.

Get it? Get to know them. Sometimes, this is impossible. Because there are other bands doing the same thing, always. But sometimes, you can squeeze through.

One last thing about festivals. A festival is ALWAYS better than a regular gig. Even if it’s free, it is better. A bar gig will get you 50 people on average. A festival will put you in front of many more people. Find as many festivals in your area and apply. I can’t stress this enough. Again – be sure you’re playing to your TA every time. Don’t play the Pride Festival if you play metal or blues, don’t play the Harley festival if you play techno. In short, don’t be stupid.

Good luck. My hands hurt.

There’s more to this, but, I tried to go fast to keep it short enough.

OUTSTANDING! Dead on it as always. Really appreciate you taking the time to write that short novel there buddy. You got a knack for writing. I keep telling you that you and Frank have to co-write a music book or music website.

Thanks, Beau. I guess I was totally going about this the wrong way by standing outside of Chucky Cheese in a chicken suit.

Nonsense cracker! That's what you call guerilla PR. People will remember you. People will take your CD, grab their child and run. When they get home, they'll tell their spouse - "I saw some nut in a chickensuit outside of Chuck E Cheez! handing out this CD!"

The spouse will reply: "well what was on the CD?"

BAM. A fan is born. Or a lawsuit, depending on what's on the CD.

nice ideas
but they keep the old world spinning
when a new world is winning
a world of giving
for the love of living

instead of
" what can i do to get what i want "
we say
" how can i give expecting nothing in return "
this is the burn
of truth.

the world of thinking men
still use the sword
in place of a pen

our intentions
guide the course
self self self
leads 2 remorse
purity
is free
and abundant
in love
r we vultures
or doves?

peace.

Although I agree with that thinking, I think that sometimes you have to play the game to change it. Not to mention that in a band situation you're also looking for the LIVE gigs, live performances where the playing field is on someone elses terms and this is excelent advice.

Great points Sacred Warrior, um, I think.

When is your next performance? And when can we hear you on the radio? Just curious.

I just can't believe that you continue to be so negative to self promotion when you've got a link to your site for your signature. You drop your message of free love as often as I drop one about self promotion, so, then, you are by definition PROMOTING your views, your opinions, and your music, with the link to your site in your signature.

I'm completely baffled by your utopian beliefs while at the same time being a capitalist. You sell your music. You promote your music on this site, just like I do. Just like so many people do. Why are you so opposed to promotion but participate in it at the same time?

And could you not answer the question in the style of Glenda the Good Witch, but as a person? Pretty please?

Beau,

You nailed it man! I've stop trying to do club gigs and have put more effort into the festival circuit. The attention you get from festivals far out weights bar gigs. I still play clubs from time to time but free publicity is worth it's weight in gold!!! I'd love to hear more from you on this topic, we all need to learn to be more industry minded...Keep it comin' bro!!!!

P.S. I listen to some of your new stuff and I really think it's your best work so far. I'd love to see you get a deal, You get 5 stars from me!

Thanks Frank. I appreciate that a lot.

beauhall said:

I'd say you got that part right.

Sorry - "Eye'd Saigh U Gaught Thayte Parte Reyeght."

yamomma said:

FrankAxtell said:

Beau, I used to visit your site "Funkmusian" for exactly this kind of information. Succinct 'Nuts & bolts'logical advice. I'm not sure if it's still online, but there were great tips on there.

I wrote in the ; 'I'm not trying to piss anybody off thread' :
http://www.prince.org/msg/15/153798

I think we're all old and ugly enough by now to know what it is We want to know.
Whether it be the Philosophy of Industry, or the Industry of Philosophy.
As yamomma said in reply to sacredwarrior's interesting philosophical post:

I'm a little confused, which is glaringly apparent; but I think this thread was directed at people trying to market their music into a public situation which is real now; rather than the esoteric's of using music as a politic, which is a great concept, but disparate, or contrasting to BeauHall's essay.
Anyhow, great food for thought !

And could you not answer the question in the style of Glenda the Good Witch, but as a person? Pretty please?
now that is the quote of the year.
can we just get along? Utopia is the illusion that only a few dare to dream. I think musicians should be paid for their work. Sports icons don't play for free. Nothing is free in this world. Even salvation comes at a price. Who would have thought that we would have a water bill when the Earth is covered mostly in water ?

That's why I did not do a self promotion of my new cd on this site. As much as I would like to share my music with new ears, I am not in the mood for new haters.

My 10-year-old cousin has memorized the words and dance moves from a Skippy peanut butter commercial and performs the whole routine again and again in front of the family. I've always thought, "Now that's powerful marketing!" ...or um...I should say brainwashing

But great post and thanks.

I do believe artists should be paid for their work because it helps them excel at what they do. Otherwise we seem to be doomed to a schizophrenic lifestyle of producing work against all odds which dramatically cuts down on the quality and quantity of production. Unless, of course, you're independently wealthy and highly motivated at the same time. But even then, not many will hear your work if you simply offer it but don't market it.

I am very happy cause a guy like Prince entered in the show business, because he is so good, and can share a little of what he can do. At the same time, now that I know him I think that if he was a more underground artist and cared less about hits we wouldn't have superficial comercial pop (that he does from time to time). SO in a way i am sure that over-commercialization of the music Is what brought it down in a general sense, just see the quality of the TOP 40 in the 70's and nowadays. So, for the sake of art I hope everybody keeps underground, i wouldn't like to see nobody here going formulaic in exchange of a few dimes, nor doing their songs with the objective of following a market, cause we all know big bucks are reserved for eminem and the likes. SO what is the use of going Pop if you are only going to be a sub pop fallacy, selling 40 cds and touring in bars for 20 people?

7salles, I think there are followers and leaders in the music trends. I don't mean like a hero of the masses, but an innovator. Prince, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, the Beatles, the Beegees - roll your eyes if you want, but there are those who start the trend and follow it through to the big fat cash cow, and then there are the Nickelbacks and Ready For the Worlds and Hermans Hermits who will start out no different than any other band, just doing their thing, and either THEY or an A&R Suit says, "you know what? You guys could be huge if you sounded a little more like the flavor of the month!"

So the followers chase the wagon of innovators instead of just doing their own thing. There's a grey line there though, because we're all playing music with drums, bass, keys, guitars, a 4 count, vocals that contain a verse, a chorus, maybe a bridge, so, where are you different from the others, and where are you just the same?

It's an interesting discussion. The Black Crowes re-created the Rolling Stones and swept the music industry (suits) into a frenzy for the 70's Rock sound. Now, were they doing what they wanted to do? Or were they chasing a wagon that had been around for 15 years? (and forgotten). Hard to say. Same with Living Colour. Would you say they started a music revolution by just being black? Because if they were white, you could say that they were no different than Led Zeppelin, only funkier.

Tal: You BETTER share that music! There are no haters on here. Some folks might want to poke and prod you, but I'm learning to deal with it.

Last night I played at a bar and came across my old room mate - I played in her band, she used to play in mine, we were best friends 6 years ago, and the sea hag wouldn't give me the time of day last night. I don't get it, but, okay, you don't have to like me.

(I so totally slashed her tires before I left!)

OH COME ON. I'm kidding!!

beauhall said:

Yeah. everything sounds like something that has gone before, to some extent..

It just comes down to the difference between being influenced and copying...

Where you draw THAT line, is anyone's guess!

I saw a tape of aerosmith in the studio and they accepted orders from poducers, even when they didnt agree. I cannot understand that, as an "artist" i couldnt ever do that, i cant see how Steven Tyler and Joe Perry let's a producer say what they should do. Still aerosmith is among my favorite artists and I respect them deeply. So i dont knwo what the fuck i am talking about. But they are right, they sell themselves and they have to follow what the market wants. But the fault is in the demand, the people, if the people in general respected and cared more about art, artists should not have to be formulaic to be sold, people should have a higher degree of musical perception. But I am sure some jazz artists, and some guys like Mike Patton, Beck and Prince, sometimes does songs for themselves without caring for THEIR so called market. And that is the most difficult thing to do.

A lot of people criticize artists for selling out, but I don't happen to think it's that easy to make a bestselling hit. As an experimental/cross genre filmmaker, I tend to be in the opposite position. I do my own thing, but it tends to be very alternative and only a few can appreciate it. Sometimes this frustrates me because it's hard to continue working in the margins. I think every artist wants an audience.

Beau, I will share the music but not in a big premier. I will give it to my supportive friends.

7Salles - I don't think you're selling out when you allow external influences into your art. It still comes down to the artist to make the final decision. In Aerosmith's case, one of the things that has kept them coming back again and again is that their music seems to remain on the edge of current trends, while being instantly a classic. (Jaded comes to mind). While they may have written the basic tracks for the song, they've been out on the road for 2 years straight, living out of hotel rooms and airplanes, so they may not have a grasp on what has changed in the music trends.

By allowing someone to introduce current trends into their music, they've been able to adapt. THe best example of that would be RUN DMC's work with them. I think even Steven and Joe give RUN DMC credit for bringing them back from the dead.

When I was in the studio, the engineer would make suggestions, and it was up to me as to what to do with those suggestions. It became a point of frustration, wondering when should I listen to external influences, and when should I go with my gut. On the areas that I let go, I'm pretty happy with the results. On the areas that I held on firmly, I'm also pretty happy... but I did have to learn to allow external opinions into the framework of my songs. I've never done that before and had no intention of doing it when I went into the studio. If I held to my original ideas, would the CD be better or worse? I think it wouldn't be any different than the demos. While they're pretty good, I think there's little things with the CD that sound way better than the demos, and that's what I wanted out of this whole experience.

Just saying from my own experiences there. When the engineer first started suggesting how to change my songs, I was offended and thought I would never do that. In the end, I'm glad I got over that and allowed his experiences and opinions into the mix.

I didnt mean accepting suggestions is selling out. But what argument the producer
has when he wants us to change the song?

* It will turn out to be a better song!

or

* It will be more easily accepted in your market!


When it's the second, I am sure it is selling out.

MMM - even there, man, I just don't know. I had a song with a wicked 5 minute guitar solo that just went and went. And went. And went.

And Matt (the co-producer)'s argument to edit it down was that I would be losing people's attention with nothing going on but the solo, for that long. At first I thought, no way! I'm rockin and the solo is Hendrix wailing on Machine Gun, it's Skynard on Freebird, it's Dwayne Allman on whatever... but, well, to Matt's credit, he pointed out that they were already wildly accepted as guitar icons, whereas, I'm one of the few members of the "beau rocks the guitar" fan club.

So, in the end, I opted for a digestible solo versus an epic one.

I WANTED a solo that just kept going and going, because it was more about the groove behind it, the changing backing vocals, stuff behind the solo. His argument was that people would be hitting the next button before they GOT the awesome layers and stuff.

My point is, as the artist, it's extremely hard to remove yourself from your art, and see it through new eyes. When I hear these songs, I'm hearing every little minute detail because i PLAYED every little minute detail, the tamborine doing the occasional triplet instead of the usual 16th notes, crap like that, that NOBODY will hear until I've been heralded as a legend and there's a beau.org out there somewhere...

I'm from the school of digging into a song and listening for that stuff. Most people aren't. The producer's JOB is to represent "most people". That's not selling out, that's helping you hear the song with new ears and recognizing some things that might need to be re-thought. It's a hard thing to accept though. As soon as ANYBODY starts making suggestions to improve your art, the tendency is to feel misunderstood, or that they just didn't get it.

And hell, HERE, we've ALL seen Purple Rain and want to believe that moral to the story - "no one digs your music but yourself" and in the end, there's a packed house that's exploding to the very same music. However - EVEN IN THAT movie - Prince eventually accepts outside input.

So, yeah, if they come back to you and say "we want you to sound more like Creed" then, okay, that's the suits telling you to sell more records. But if the producer says "I gotta have more cowbell!" you have to put your faith in that person - at least some of the time, in that they've made gold records, or plastic ones at least, and they've seen poopers slide down the wall, and they've seen brilliant ones turn to platinum.

I just saw a John Meyer interview where he pointed it out - with a big label deal, the first record is theirs, and the second record is yours. You have to jump through the hoops to get the buy-in from them. Once you're golden, they'll let you record cows mooing onto your record if you want, they got paid, they're happy.

If you go back and check out the big names, you'll see that this applies - Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced, while trippy and stoner, still has solid gold hits on it. His next record, (Axis? ladyland? I forget) was so wild and out there, you rarely hear THOSE songs on the radio, but the overall album is much better. He explores songs longer, all sorts of stuff. Compare "Prince" and "For You" to "Dirty Mind" and "Controversy".

So will I churn out a Creed record if the label wants one? No. When/IF I ever sign to a major label, there will be long and extended conversations about what I want and where I'm going with my music, so they understand and I understand that we're on the same page. That take place with bands all the time - they'll say "we talked to three labels, and THIS record label had the same vision as we did for a record" or whatever.

MAN I'm long-winded today. Sorry about that. The ritalin hasn't kicked in yet.

beauhall said:

That's classic.

beau, you're making me really wish I had a producer

I'm the kind of person who despises anyone who comes up with criticism about my work, then caves in later. It's just so hard to get some distance. But I would have to develop a relationship with that person and it would have to be someone whose work I really admire and viewpoints I trust. Then I would hand over some of the creative power willingly. A true partnership would be nice.

heartbeatocean said:

Yeah. There's the challenge. I met Matt as a friend first, and we talked about the music ahead of time, talked about what CDs I wanted to sound like, the kind of audience I was shooting for, my background, etc, so in the beginning he knew what I wanted.

There were times where I felt like he was trying to make a rock record and I was trying to make a funk record, and that's where we'd have the hardest time figuring out who's opinion/input to go with. In the end, I think I did most of the Producer's roles, and he did most of the engineering, but there were times where he definitely stepped in and helped guide me when I was missing the mark.

Guitar solos are a good example. I did like 5 or 6 on one song, and he called me into the control room to hear the FIRST one over the speakers instead of thru the headphones. After doing 6 solos, and missing a note here or there, when he played the first one, it was awesome and I didn't remember why I told him to back up and start again. That's the one that I kept. ("Can I Get Some Lovin" is the song.) He did a lot of stuff like that - I'd get really bogged down in the details and miss the point that people weren't in the studio with me, watching me play the solo, they'd just hear it as it came out on the CD, not knowing that I meant to hit one note and hit another by accident. Now when I listen to the solo, (2 months later) I have NO CLUE why I didn't just set my guitar on fire after that first solo, and declare it done.

heartbeatocean said:

[Edited 7/29/05 9:13am]

I used to be so stuck on my own vision, always knowing exactly what I wanted, browbeating my crew into submission constantly. For me, it's the Director of Photography who I boss the most, telling him exactly what light I want, what camera angle etc. Well, after some experience, I realized that he actually knows a lot more about cinematography -- it being his specialty, obviously. When things got so hectic on set, a couple of times I actually had to leave and let him get the shots himself. Well, the two shots that he got on his own happened to be some of the most striking shots in whole film!

So my point is that we can squander a lot of talent by being stuck on our own vision and not receiving input. The ability to collaborate is an art in itself and our own egos can really shut out a lot of gems that could blow the project out of the water. Probably true about life too.

I just started a new thread "Finding a Collaborator".