When you put your ideas and demos here on the net, do u copy right them b4 u put them here??? if so how do u copy right your music b4 u put it on the net?

I don't copyright them. At first I was worried about that too, but I can always proof that the song is mine. And there simply is too much music out there, I think the risk of copyright infringement is very small. The songs that actually get released are copyright protected.

Technically, any original work is copyrighted the moment it is recorded in tangible form.

Registering the work is simply a way of protecting the copyright that already exists by establishing some proof.
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langebleu said:

so do i copyright my music...i heard u could post the demo 2 ur self...does that work...?

babar141 said:

You already do copyright your original work - when you record it.

Anything you do after that is protection of the copyright already created.

So, to this end, you could post the demo to yourself and leave it sealed in the envelope.

Then, in the event of a copyright dispute, you could produce the sealed and dated recording as evidence that the work at least existed as at that date. This would support your assertion of the right.
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langebleu said:

I've heard so many different stories from so many different sources, but the fact of the matter really is - it aint legally copyrighted until it's legally copyrighted. Just like everything else, the artist is too preoccupied with just creating and forgetting about real world shit. Luckily it's pretty damn easy and only costs $30 per submission & a submission can include multiple works. Do a search on google, there is a ton of information on the web -- as boring as it may be...

http://www.copyright.gov/

There are also firms (or whatever) that will do all the filing, etc for a little extra $$$.

ToyStein said:

'Copywritten' is a term that shouldn't be used in these discussions, because the law doesn't know it.

'Copyrighted' is the term to be used, which means 'protected by copyright law'. Nothing else.

In practically all countries, a work in the sense of the copyright law is 'copyrighted' (i.e protected by copyright law) as soon as it is created and fixed in a tangible medium of expression.

For example: as soon as you have written down your song on a piece of paper, on the hard disk of your computer, or recorded it on a sound tape it has been created and fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Thereby it is automatically proteced by copyright law / 'copyrighted'.

Nobody may then legally reproduce or publish your song without your permission (provided the possible exemptions made by law).Therefore: according to the law you don't have to do anything more than creating and fixing your work in a tangible medium of expression to have it 'copyrighted'.

Further, like monseigneur langeblue already said, everything you do after, like registering your work or sending yourself a copy of your work in a sealed envelop, is basically nothing more than protecting your work and the copyright you already have even more by establishing proof that you created it on a certain date.

Depending on what you want to do with your work, it is usually recommendable to either send a copy of your work for registration to the Copyright Office (in the US at least), or to send yourself a sealed envelop with a copy of your work in it if you want to make it public, or known to somebody else ( a company for example) that could go and exploit it.

Both ways can be used to establish credible and hard evidence that the work (and thus inherently also the copyright) already existed at the date of registration or mailing and thus belongs to you.

But by no means is it legally necessary in order to have tour work copyrighted.



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[Edited 9/5/04 8:16am]

From http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?
Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration” and Circular 38b, Highlights of Copyright Amendments Contained in the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), on non-U.S. works.

I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?
The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.



This is the way I understand it. Yes, technically it is copyrighted once you put it in tagible form. However, it isn't legally copyrighted unless you get it registered. Basically all you need the registered copyright for is if/when you go to court. The way I see it, someone can take my song off the internet, record it and register it if I havn't yet. Then, if I want to sue them I can't because they have the legal copyright. In fact, they might even be able to sue me! For my own song!!! LOL. The minute someone makes a million dollars off one of my songs, I'll start to legally copyright them.

But, the thing is, do you really want to spend money on legal/attorney fees? And how much time is it gonna take to go to court and prove this and that... Yeah, I know I have all my song on my hard drive, time-stamped and what not. And in a way, I'm pretty confident that a person wouldn't steal my ideas since they know that. BUT, the way I see it, they still can. They don't know which songs I have truly registered, if any. I've heard the "poor man's copyright" doesn't hold up in court. Sure it shows you recorded it on a certain date, but if you didn't register it, you're shit outta luck. I don't think an attorney would represent you if you didn't register your work with the US copyright office and someone else did. The way I understand it, that's what you are paying for: a legal document. Legal reality can sometimes be different than what actually happened.

Oh, and for the most part, I think people avoid stealing ideas because they would rather not get tangled into a legal mess. This is why some record companies do not take unsolicited demos... They do not want to open that package and be held accountable if a copyright infrigement does happen. If they don't open your demo submission, they can honestly say they have never heard your material.
[Edited 9/5/04 9:15am]

VinaBlue said:

THANK U so much

Vinablue,

Please don't jump to conclusions so fast and read the text of the US Copyright office again.

Registration is recommended for a number of reasons.

one is: "prima facie" evidence in court.

another is: statutory damages and attorney fees are avalaible to you in court actions.

That's it and that's for US lawsuits over US works in the US only.

Any other conclusions you have drawn are wrong, sorry.


First off: there is no such thing as a difference between "legally copyrighted" and "copyrighted". The text of the Copyright office doesn't mention it once, so forget about that, it's nonsense.

The fact is: Once a work is registered it simply gives you even more protection and possibilities, but is in NO WAY needed to have your work "copyrighted" (NOT copy"written")

Further: when someone else has registered your work as their own, they have registered it in bad faith and this is illegal.

Of course: there is a problem of evidence when you as the true owner have no way to prove that you created it first and they registered it in bad faith.

Therefore: when you have an important work you want to remain in control of: register it BEFORE you make it know or public. That way you will avoid possible problems in the future.

"Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright".

So you can also register your work AFTER someone else has registered already.

Regarding attorney's not wanting your case if someone else has registered your work; that depends on the case and the established facts. When you have evidence you were first to create it, I would take it.

Registered or not, your work is protect by copyright law once it is created.



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[Edited 9/7/04 8:54am]

Adding some more info on why it is recommendable to register your work in the US:


Although a copyright registration is not required, the Copyright Act establishes a mandatory deposit requirement for works published in the United States. See the definition of "publication."

In general, the owner of copyright or the owner of the exclusive right of publication in the work has a legal obligation to deposit in the Copyright Office, within 3 months of publication in the United States, two copies (or in the case of sound recordings, two phonorecords) for the use of the Library of Congress. Failure to make the deposit can result in fines and other penalties but does not affect copyright protection.

Certain categories of works are exempt entirely from the mandatory deposit requirements, and the obligation is reduced for certain other categories. For further information about mandatory deposit, request Circular 7d, "Mandatory Deposit of Copies or Phonorecords for the Library of Congress."


Once again: no requirement or legal obligation to register your work in order to enjoy copyright protection, but - depending on the type of work - as soon as the work is published it may cost you money or other penalties if you don't register it within 3 months of publication in the US.

Abrazo, I don't understand any of the legal mumbo jumbo so I guess that is why I'm a bit paranoid. I also really don't want to waste any time in court, lol.

Registration is recommended for a number of reasons.

one is: "prima facie" evidence in court.

another is: statutory damages and attorney fees are avalaible to you in court actions.

I have no idea what that means.


Further: when someone else has registered your work as their own, they have registered it in bad faith and this is illegal.

Of course: there is a problem of evidence when you as the true owner have no way to prove that you created it first and they registered it in bad faith.

So if I do have proof that is older than their fake copyright, ie files on my hard drive with dates from 5 years ago, I would win?

So you can also register your work AFTER someone else has registered already.

Huh? Then what's the point of copyright if everyone can do it on the same song?

Registered or not, your work is protect by copyright law once it is created.

Cool!

ok, so what about demos on the internet? That's mostly what my stuff is, and what about mp3s that you can only stream? Like all of the tracks we have on soundclick... they are protected, right? If I have a song that isn't quite done, like it doesn't have an ending that I'm satisfied with... shouldn't I wait to copyright it? Would I have to copyright it again once the ending is worked out? Aren't there some things (chord progressions, song titles, album titles...) that just can't be copyrighted? What is copyrighted then? Lyrics & melody lines, or only the melody line of the lyric? I think there is a certain amount of notes someone can take, right? Seems like people can easily take your hooks and create new songs with them!

I'm guessing you're a lawyer. Thanks for your input! This stuff is way too complicated.

I'll copyright my stuff when I officially release it to sell as a cd. For now I'll take my chances. I have PLENTY of proof that my songs are mine. I have lots of files saved (on discs and different computers) that date back to when the songs first started out.

Federally, your music and written works are copyrighted immediately after you publish them onto a medium (tape, digital, disc, video, paper, etc).

Everyone is entitled to copyright freely.

Here is the link. http://www.copyright.gov/...circ1.html

There are additional fees to get specific and to give your works extra protection. They are listed there also.

Peace,
JD
[Edited 9/7/04 9:49am]

REGISTERING your copy rights is what cost money, time, protects you from copy right infringement, etc.

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a couple years ago:

A copyright -- in the literal sense of the word -- means the right to copy (in this case) a song. As soon as an original song is fixed in some method of recording, whether it's audio, video, or even on paper, it has a copyright. The copyright holder can make copies of that song, and no one else can, without the copyright holder's permission.

It is important to note a few things: in the case of works for hire, (you write a jingle for a supermarket, for instance) the copyright belongs to the employer, not the employee. They paid you to write a song for them.

Also, keep in mind the copyright is for the structure of your creation, not the idea itself. If you wrote a song about tooling around in an AMC Pacer, you can't sue someone later on for writing another song about the same thing. But you can sue them if they use the same words or music.

The Fair Use provision

Fair Use is a provision that covers criticism, commentary (including parodies), news reporting, research or teaching. When a copyright infringement case comes before the court, 4 things are considered in determining Fair Use: purpose and character of the use, the nature of the work, how much of the original song was used, and what affect will the new song have on the potential market for the original version.

An example of the Fair Use provision being involved in an infringement lawsuit is the case of 2 Live Crew vs. Roy Orbison. The rap group wanted to write a song based loosely on the lyrics and melody of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman". They asked Roy, Roy said no, and they went ahead and recorded a song anyway.

In court, they claimed that their song, titled "Oh Pretty Woman" was protected by the Fair Use clause; stating that very few ideas were original anymore -- everything written borrows from another source. Despite this reasoning, the court ruled in favor of Roy Orbison.

However, a few years later, after several appeals, the decision was overturned because 2 Live Crew argued that the song was a parody, no different than songs by Weird Al Yankovic (also protected under the Fair Use provision). The court reasoned that no one could possibly confuse the 2 Live Crew version for Roy Orbison's, and therefore the new version would have no impact on the potential market for the original version.

Samples and loops

Using a sample of any length without permission is copyright infringement. By adding a sample, the new song benefits from the sound and characteristics of the original song. No matter how short the sample is, it is still considered copyright infringement.

How to Register

Registering your copyright is fairly easy and inexpensive. You can register one song or a collection of songs all at one time, as long as the songs are all authored by the same person. What you'll need is a completed application form (Form PA), a non-returnable deposit of the song(s) to be registered, and a non-refundable billing fee of $30 in the form of a check.

If you have printed documentation of the songs, (lyrics, charts, etc) it's a good idea to include those as well. Once you've submitted the form and all the required materials, and the money, the government processes your request and eventually sends you a copy of the registration.

For a more in depth review of the copyright laws, go online to the US Library of Congress Copyright Office at www.loc.gov/copyright. You can download the appropriate forms from the site, as well as read all about copyright laws in depth.

disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Any legal questions? Consult an attorney. This article is intended for basic reference only.

VinaBlue said:

Hi Vina, I will try to make it more clear, ok?

1) There is no difference between a "legally copyrighted" and "copyrighted" work. Once a work is created, it is copyrighted / copyright protected.

2) There is a difference however between a "registered work" and a "non-registered work".

Once your work is registered you can for example sue for infringement and you have "hard" ("prima facie") evidence in court that it is yours. You can then also demand "statutory damages" for infringement, meaning extremely high fines, made avalaible to the owner of copyright by the US Copyright Statute.

When your work is not registered, but you have to sue for infringement of your copyright, you can still register your work, because the rule is that a copyright can be registered whenever, as long as it is during the "lifetime" of the copyright (copyright duration is normally the life of the author plus 70 years). That's what I meant when I quoted this rule.

3) If someone registred your work in bad faith and you have clear and undisputed evidence that you created it before, you have good chances that a court will rule that the registration was made in bad faith and that the work plus its copyright belong to you, instead of the one who registered it in bad faith. Needless to say, these problems can easily be avoided by simply registering your work, altho' that remains recommendable, not mandatory.

VinaBlue said:

Yes, they are protected. But be carefull to always clearly reserve your rights, wherever you publish your songs, or whomever you give copies to.



You mean, "shouldn't I wait to REGISTER it?" (remember; it is already automatically copyrighted once you created it)

You could wait to register it, but once it is a song you want to remain control of as much as possible, I would advice you register it before you publish it and have the registration updated once the song has progressed.



When you have a recorded song with lyrics you are at least dealing with 3 works and therefore 3 different copyrights:

1) the copyright in the lyrics
2) the copyright in the composition of the song
3) the copyright in the sound recording of the song


There is also a copyright in the artwork of the CD, but these 3 copyrights are what it usually all boils down to.

As for taking stuff from somebody else. It's very hard to say how much you can take from someone else and not infringe on their copyright. It ultimately always depends on the facts of the case. But as a general rule: don't "borrow" someone else's stuff without permission, or at least without good legal advice.



It's certainly not simple. But don't make it any harder than it really is. That will make you negative about it and that could cause problems in the future. I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand it. All you really need to do to learn about copyright is to stay positive (don't "hate" it) and disciplined (put time and energy in it) and then one day you will see that it's not half as difficult as you always thought it was...



(REGISTER you mean.) Advice to stay out of problems: Register any of your work, that you deem important and want to remain in control of as much as possible, BEFORE you release (publish) it and also BEFORE you let anyone who could use you work, even hear your song.



Make sure that you never lose those files and register your most important work, regardless of whether you will actually release it or not. It's not that expensive nor difficult, but it is recommendable. Good luck!




--
[Edited 9/8/04 6:00am]

otan said:

Next to that and never to be overlooked it means the right to "publish/make public" you work and the right to create "derivative works" of your work.



(Unfortunately) the "Work for hire" doctrine is not that simple. Whether someone is paid to create a work or not doesn't really matter in this regard. What matters the most in the work for hire doctrine is whether the person(s) creating the work made it in the course of "employment" or not.



That's correct. Nicely put.

Abrazo said:

Thank you so much!