i have been trying for days to get an answer as to why my account was banned access to a forum that comes with membership costs. no one at npgmc will answer my emails. i've even been in the chat room waiting for a pp so i could pounce...nothing...not one chance to get a reply. so, in what seems to be a case of discrimination, i have filed a formal complaint.

basically, the way i see it is, i am a customer and i had a problem. i voiced, in a respectful and polite manner, my feelings in a forum designed to do just that. then my account was banned. the forum is not a privilege; as i've payed for the access, it should be granted.

the better business bureau has just received another complaint (the first from me, mind you) regarding that scam of a joint up in chanhassen.

y'know, i've been wonderin about that myself...i know how it says in the little 'agreement'-thingie you read before you sign up with the site that sez your membership fee is a 'donation' and is non-refundable and all that chit, but still...in a way it's wrong.

I dont wanna say i told ya so, but...I told ya so!
Screw his pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo bullshit

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

well, you know, it does say on the agreement form (when you first sign up) that if you are vulgar or offensive they can limit, suspend or cancel your account. and that's cool but how was my statement vulgar or offensive?

EXACTLY
*stay away from the Purple Kool Aid Edit*
[This message was edited Fri Sep 26 13:24:00 PDT 2003 by bananacologne]

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

I know it's only $25, but after last year's nonsense, I'm glad I didn't even waste time joining, considering the direction this club has taken.

doomboogie said:

i'm glad for you, too!

The most disrespectful part of the NPGMC's actions this year is how they delete posts and completely ban people yet refuse to even discuss the reasoning behind their actions.

Yes, I know that asking for reason from the NPGMC is a tad insane, but when you're paying for a service and they take that away from you, the very least they can do is let you know why, and if it's possible for you to get reinstated.

Of course, you could always ask Psilocybin and the rest of the Goon Squad to start a Private Message campaign on your behalf. There's another thing: some members get let back in, if the moderators deem them worthy of the club, and if you're liked by some of the more vocal Fams.

Welcome 2 The Blacklist Experience. If you would like to access this experience, tough shit. We already got your money, and you won't be getting a refund. Really makes you wanna plunk some more money on Prince, doesn't it?

doomboogie said:

true, i haven't joined either. don't think i'll be doin so in the future as well.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

I have a hard time accepting the whole concept of this year's club fees being a "donation". I think this is about as legit as when Prince used to say he had his name "legally" changed to a symbol.

1. NPGMC is not a non-profit organization, nor does it have any explicit ties to any charity organization other than Love4OneAnother, which...when was the last time we heard a damn thing about THAT?

2. A donation is a suggested contribution. Whether you give it or not, by definition you are still entitled to the same services. Have you ever gotten kicked outta church when you couldn't afford to donate, or when you could only donate a small amount? Did you know you don't have to pay the suggested donations in museums that refer to admission as "donation"?

The bottom line is: for a specific price, the NPGMC provides you with specific services. If you don't pay that specific price, you don't get the services - no ifs ands or buts about it.

So as I see it, ImNotSayin has a pretty valid complaint. He paid his money and followed the rules, and he should have the same full privileges as everyone else.

I would like to hear a rational argument against ImNotSayin's complaint.

No matter how wrong. You got to have standards.

Anxiety said:

exactly. omg...should this mean that npgmc will get featured on that nbc news thing, "the fleecing of america"?

If you read the whole agreement, it says they have the right to delete any post or ban any one at any time for any reason.

deepabove said:

actually, this is what the agreement says:

When using the Member Communities you may not do any of the following:

a. Restrict or inhibit any other member from using and enjoying the Member Communities;

b. Post or transmit any abusive, hateful, defamatory, indecent, libelous, obscene, pornographic, profane, threatening, harassing, embarrassing, unlawful, vulgar, or other information of any kind that violates applicable law or regulation or which harms minors in any way, including, without limitation, information that constitutes the following:

then there is all this talk of copyrights and stealing material and a bunch of stuff that is inapplicable in this particluar instance. then back to...


Cancellation of Subscription Services. If a subscription is charged and not paid or if the Club believes that you have violated the rules, then access to the Club may be denied in whole or part.

The Club reserves the right at all times to edit, refuse to post, or to remove any Information, in whole or part, that the Club deems inappropriate for inclusion in the Member Communities. The Club reserves the right to expel you from or suspend your access to some or all of the Member Communities for violating the law or this Agreement.

so, from my understanding of contractual law, i have done nothing to warrant banning from any or all of that website. i stand by my opinion that i should either be reinstated or refunded my membership fee.

the lawyer in me is making me go through with this on principle. and a friend of mine who recently hipped me to, what she calls, 'jewish principle'. so this is for julia!

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

I'd like to read your comment that NPGMC found so offensive. NPGMC seems a little defensive & a little too eager to push the BANNED button this year. The slightest comment & they are right on that button.

realm said:

Like, HELLO?

In the case of 'Imnotsayingthisjusttobenasty' vs NPGMChit: against what?!?

Please do explain - we're all ears...

so, they finally replied to me and here it goes (npgmc comments are in bold):

hi again...

i am requesting an official explanation as to why i can no longer ask questions/post comments in the "U Tell Us" section of your npgmc. i did not use vulgar language or obscene/offensive words. i simply utilized the forum for its purpose.


We didn't ban u and cannot answer ur question. However, disrespect will get u banned. If u did not "curse" but consistently posted antagonistic, disrespectful, and insulting messages, u would b banned.


i would like, at the very least, for this "club" to honor its contractual agreement we entered into together when i paid the 25 dollar fee for joining. i would appreciate some form of courteous explanation and a valid reason as to why my access is limited yet full club dues were paid.


Actually, if u read the member agreement that all members must agree 2 in order 2 join, it says:

"The Club reserves the right at all times to edit, refuse to post, or to remove any Information, in whole or part, that the Club deems inappropriate for inclusion in the Member Communities. The Club reserves the right to expel you from or suspend your access to some or all of the Member Communities"

And we will continue 2 do so as we deem appropriate.


Love4oneanother,
The NPG Music Club
www.NPGMusicClub.com
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
If u r a member, please visit the MEMBER HELP forum in the UTELLUS message board 4 assistance with the club. Responses will be quicker in the message forums.

my favorite bit is that last portion...where it tells me to contact them through 'u tell us'...but i'm banned and can't get in there...LOL

In defence of NPGMC - we know from experience that it isn't easy running a site of that magnitude, especially when doing it on a small budget (or even on no budget, as with free sites such as Prince.org). I sure wouldn't want to be the one that had to interpret Prince's intentions and trying to translate that into an efficient online business.

Ultimately it is their site, and they are free to run it as they see fit. When posting on their site, you gotta put up with their rules. They aren't obliged to publish anything you have to say. They may remove "negative" messages which portray Prince or the club in a bad light, that is their perogative. The only way to be assured of true freedom of expression is to set up your own website, with your own rules.

It's not an ideal situation, but that's why there exists plenty of independent fansites such as Prince.org, Housequake.com, Princefams.com and newsgroups like alt.music.prince. If you want to hear another side of the story, you have these resources to choose from.

Of course, it is a thorny issue banning users who are paying a subscription fee but you do still have access to the rest of the NPGMC site, and they have to be able to take some kind of action against people who post stuff that they don't want to see on their forums. That $25 surely does not guarantee any free run of the site

I suggest you either (a) apologise, and promised to adhere to their rules if you are allowed back on their forums or (b) accept that their rules do not suit you and the way you post, and simply go elsewhere.

ian said:

Ian, I think you're correct from a "free speech argument" point of view - all too often, folks mistake sites like the Org, NPGMC and other bulletin boards for democratic open forums in which the voice of the user is sacred. A lot of folks have yet to grasp the concept that these are privately owned sites that are subject to the owners' sensibilities.

BUT.

I don't think this argument applies to I'mNotSayin's situation. What you're talking about is a question of content. What HE'S talking about is a question of service.

I'mNotSayin's comment wasn't rude, profane, threatening or "disharmonious" in any way. It was critical, but it was honest and heartfelt. And as a result, he didn't just get a thread locked or a post deleted - he was banned from the forums altogether.

It's no secret that NPGMC's PPs are some of the most thread-lockin', post-deletin', arbitrary and humorless motherfuckers in the land, and when I post over there, I do so with the knowledge that I probably won't see what I'm writing the next time I log on. But at the same time, I try to conform to the standards they request that we uphold - as I think I'mNotSayin had done as well.

The bottom line is, no matter how respectful you are, when you strike a nerve with NPGMC on any substantial level, you're outta there.



...and by the way, if anyone gets to talk to Prince at his meet-n-greets, do be sure to tell the Emperor that his new clothes look just fabulous.

ian said:

Say you gave me money for something and I didn't give you that something because I expressed to you, however indirectly, that I didn't like your attitude.

Would you apologize to me, or just accept that my rules don't suit you?

Anxiety said:

My point is that your $25 covers more than just access to the forums. Surely banning problematic users from posting in those forums HAS to be an option for them. What else can be done with users who are abusive or who don't respect the rules of the forum? They have to try to maintain an overall level of quality for their other users, and they have to keep things in line with whatever brief Prince's people have given them.

If it was me, I'd say "fuck your dumb site" and go off and post on another site. But that's just me.

Anxiety said:

You might have a point - I'm not fully familiar with the circumstances surrounding this user being banned. Remember though that we (the Org) have had a lot more experience in providing a service like this and we still have difficulties at times... NPGMC are finding their feet and learning how to run a forum service (and how not to, I guess). One thing that I think would help a lot is if they illustrated their rules and guidelines more clearly so users have a better idea of what kind of posts will get removed and / or locked. Also, they probably need to better improve the feedback - if a user has paid $25 for a service, they DEFINITELY deserve an explanation for being banned (even if it was down to their own (mis)behaviour).

ian said:

But that would acknowledge the argument that what you wrote was on some level abusive or disrespectful to the forum.

In ImNotSayin's situation, he doesn't believe what he wrote was in any way abusive or disrespectful.

And I would be inclined to agree.

There's a fine line between being disrespectful and saying something someone isn't trying to hear.

ian said:

I think that's a very optimistic way of looking at it. Unfortunately, NPGMC seems to only become more and more prickly and idiosynchratic with time.

Anxiety said:

Sure, but I doubt they are doing it just to annoy you
It takes time and effort to do all these things... I'm sure they wouldn't be doing it unless they thought they were doing the right thing.

It's not a site I particularly want to post on myself though, for the reasons you mentioned.

If they can better clarify their rules and guidelines for posting, that will help a lot. Also, they need to provide better feedback to "banned" users. A paying customer deserves to know (a) precisely why they are banned (b) how they can avoid such problems in the future and (c) how long the ban remains in place.

Anxiety said:

Well, although there will always be cases where users will disagree with moderation decisions over there, I'd agree that they owe "imnotsayingthisjust2bnasty" a better explanation.

How can you ban someone for breaking rules that have not yet been defined? How can you ban someone that pays a subscription fee but then offer no concrete explanation for the ban? It makes little sense to me.

hey anxiety...thanks for the rally!

ian,

basically, this is my issue: npgmc gave a set of rules that were included in their agreement when you signed up and paid for membership. i have followed those rules. i have been very respectful with my postings at npgmc and, like anxiety, have accepted the fact that some of them will just be deleted. that is fine by me. lame, in my opinion, but still in accord to the letter of the law over at the club. this situation is different. they not only deleted my thread, but banned me from ever having an opinion there again. part of the terms of service state that i have access to the forums as long as i don't break the rules. i did not break the rules.

i did not get an email explaining things...instead what i got was an email telling me that they did not ban me...well, come on, the message says "you have been banned". their customer service is non existent and that is a problem.

as for telling them to fuck off and letting it be...well, if you paid for something and then they backed out of the agreement would you simply say "oh well, i'll never deal with them again" and move on or would you demand something in return for your money. it is a matter of principle, ian. if this was any other online store (which, in essence, is what npgmc is..a store) people would not buy from it and they would go out of business. because we're dealing with a celebrity, people put up with the crap that clubs hands out.

i understand your opinion and the angle from which you're coming but you have to realize that this site is free. if you kick me off or ban me from the org...well, no harm done really. i am not losing anything nor are you gaining anything. npgmc is a pay site that should acknowledge the fact that money was put down in order to gain entrance. i'm not saying we should have run of the mill because we paid. i'm saying that if i broke none of the written rules and have obided by club policy (which i have) than penalizing me simply because i don't agree with you is just wrong. it is discriminatory. if you walked into a department store and told the owner "i don't agree with your marketing campaign" and he than said "you are not allowed to shop in my store" and then took back merchandise for which you've already paid, i think you'd be a little bitter. and i doubt you would just walk away.

that is basically what is happening here.

by the way y'all, in regards to my treatment at the club...i feel like my avatar!

i hear you immnotsayingthisjust2bnasty... thanx for the clarification. it really sounds like things are a little disorganised over there. i suspect you will be able to get the matter resolved with further correspondence with them...