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Reply #30 posted 01/03/19 8:05pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

IanRG said:

.

Not true. St Christopher is the Saint of traveling and travelers. St Jospeph is St Mary's husband. St Christopher was recognised as a Saint by all the Christian Church right up to the rise of Protestantism. St Christopher is still venerated by the Eastern Othodox Church but is not venerated anymore by the Catholic Church.

.

The myth that Constantine created a new religion separate from the Christian Church is an excuse used to justify the man-made new denominations that sprang up commencing with the Western Catholics and Eastern Orthodox split. To believe that the Catholic Church replaced the Christian Church is to beleive that Jesus was wrong and His Church fell to a poliitcally shrewed move.

.

All of this is off topic and just the most likely response to a thread like this. We have had all the expected responses about all religions being man made (argualby true), all evil comes from religions, religions are just to control people, I am against organised religion and then lets attack the Catholics instead.

.

In regards to the thread - witihn the 5 people in the OP there is a range of man-madeness. This is from people genuinely seeking to find a better understanding of God and how we should do this (I was an adult baptism, so have no problem with this) to fabricated stories about secret plates containing new religious texts. There is a huge difference between the two.

My Sicilian friends Barbara has a 'shrine' to St Joseph. I got the info from her. But catholic.org has him as the patron of travelers too

https://www.catholic.org/...saint_id=4

Feastday: March 19th & May 1st
Patron of the Universal Church, unborn children, fathers, workers, travelers, immigrants, and a happy death

.

Yes, there are double ups in what Saints are recognised as advocates to God for, especially as many of the major saints have a range of recognised minor areas. To your point, St Joseph is Jesus' foster father, not a Catholic only Saint added by Constantine to replicate Roman gods. St Christopher is first and foremost Saint to which Catholics, Orthodox and other denominations that recognise good and inspirational people to seek to have intercede for them (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans etc.) in regards to traveling and travelers. He may have died in 251, so precedes Constantine's proclamation.

.

There are other double ups eg Patron Saints for large families:

.

St Margaret of Scotland

St. Adelaide of Burgundy

St. Clotilde

St. Dagobert II

Blessed Dorothy of Montau

Blessed Ivetta of Huy

St. Leonidas of Alexandria

St. Nicholas of Flüe

St. Vladimir of Kiev

.

If you widen the pool to more than recognised/cannonised Saints to anyone who has been inspiration to you then there are so many people that we ask to pray for us for many of the simple things: health, courage, strength, inspiration to good works etc.

.

In regards to the rest of what I said: Was Jesus wrong when he said that his Church would stand against the gates of hell if it was replaced by proclamation of political leader? Where do you stand on the breakup to ever expanding numbers of denominations based on anything from minor theological differences (eg the age at which a person should be baptised) to political differences (eg Russian Orthodox has just divided with the formation of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church) to making up that you found gold plates with secret texts that only you could read and these plates have subsequently dissappeared.

[Edited 1/3/19 21:28pm]

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Reply #31 posted 01/04/19 2:34am

IanRG

Further evidence that St Joseph was not made patron Saint of travelers to replace Mercury by Constantine:

.

Although the veneration of Joseph seems to have begun in Egypt, the earliest Western devotion to him dates from the early 14th century, when the Servites, an order of mendicant friars, observed his feast on March 19, the traditional day of his death. Among the subsequent promoters of the devotion were Pope Sixtus IV, who introduced it at Rome about 1479, and the celebrated 16th-century mystic St. Teresa of Ávila. Already patron of Mexico, Canada, and Belgium, Joseph was declared patron of the universal church by Pope Pius IX in 1870. In 1955 Pope Pius XII established the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker on May 1 as a counter-celebration to the communists’ May Day.

.

Prior to this a mass was offered in Joseph's honour as Jesus' foster father from around 313 begining not in Rome but in the East.

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Reply #32 posted 01/04/19 5:33am

poppys

I never said denominations were the same as religions. I said that substituting the word denomination for the word religion in the premise of this thread doesn't change anything regarding the use of man-made in the OP.

Personally, I think that all religions and therefore all denominations of various religions are man-made.

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Reply #33 posted 01/04/19 5:48am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

IanRG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

My Sicilian friends Barbara has a 'shrine' to St Joseph. I got the info from her. But catholic.org has him as the patron of travelers too

https://www.catholic.org/...saint_id=4

Feastday: March 19th & May 1st
Patron of the Universal Church, unborn children, fathers, workers, travelers, immigrants, and a happy death

.

Yes, there are double ups in what Saints are recognised as advocates to God for, especially as many of the major saints have a range of recognised minor areas. To your point, St Joseph is Jesus' foster father, not a Catholic only Saint added by Constantine to replicate Roman gods. St Christopher is first and foremost Saint to which Catholics, Orthodox and other denominations that recognise good and inspirational people to seek to have intercede for them (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans etc.) in regards to traveling and travelers. He may have died in 251, so precedes Constantine's proclamation.

.

There are other double ups eg Patron Saints for large families:

.

St Margaret of Scotland

St. Adelaide of Burgundy

St. Clotilde

St. Dagobert II

Blessed Dorothy of Montau

Blessed Ivetta of Huy

St. Leonidas of Alexandria

St. Nicholas of Flüe

St. Vladimir of Kiev

.

If you widen the pool to more than recognised/cannonised Saints to anyone who has been inspiration to you then there are so many people that we ask to pray for us for many of the simple things: health, courage, strength, inspiration to good works etc.

.

In regards to the rest of what I said: Was Jesus wrong when he said that his Church would stand against the gates of hell if it was replaced by proclamation of political leader? Where do you stand on the breakup to ever expanding numbers of denominations based on anything from minor theological differences (eg the age at which a person should be baptised) to political differences (eg Russian Orthodox has just divided with the formation of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church) to making up that you found gold plates with secret texts that only you could read and these plates have subsequently dissappeared.

[Edited 1/3/19 21:28pm]

Of course He wasn't wrong. But the church(the Body of Christ) was not replaced. It never stopped being in existance.

.

Where do I stand? Denominational break-ups is because of the hardness of mans heart and his ego. Even under the Jewish sect, the Sadducees and Pharisees were political-religious denominations. And Jesus rebuked them left and right for straying from Law & the prophets that came from Jehovah. And in scripture it pointed out that the Sadduces recognized who Jesus was and moved with envy to have him crucified. That is mankinds undercurrent when it comes to denominations. To be like god.

.

The plates, I'm not familiar with, but just from what you've expressed, it's not of God.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #34 posted 01/04/19 5:54am

OldFriends4Sal
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poppys said:

I never said denominations were the same as religions. I said that substituting the word denomination for the word religion in the premise of this thread doesn't change anything regarding the use of man-made in the OP.

Personally, I think that all religions and therefore all denominations of various religions are man-made.

But the questioning in the OP needed to be cleared up, because the use of religion by the meme is wrong. Denomination is the correct term, and from there understanding the intent of the author of it.

.

which totally changes the direction of the topic. So it would then be rephrased to people who actually follow the 'christian' faith, what do 'you' say of these denominations. Which as I posted in a previous post, understand what the Torah and Scriptures say are the next step to judging them. *If there is a God who sent His Son Jesus, then what would He saw about these 5 + denominations, how have they deviated from His message of salvation. "Do not add to My Word, Do not take away from My Word, do not cause My Word to be Unclear, or I will blot your name out of the Lambs book of life" People will there have to give an account.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #35 posted 01/04/19 5:54am

OldFriends4Sal
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But where did this stuff come from? Like my friend literally has an shrine to St Joseph in her home. It might be because St Joseph is a large presence for Italians.

In Sicily, where Saint Joseph is regarded by many as their Patron saint, and in many Italian-American communities, thanks are given to Saint Joseph (San Giuseppe in Italian) for preventing a famine in Sicily during the Middle Ages. According to legend, there was a severe drought at the time, and the people prayed for their patron saint to bring them rain. They promised that if God answered their prayers through Joseph's intercession, they would prepare a large feast to honor him. The rain did come, and the people of Sicily prepared a large banquet for their patron saint.
In Italy, March 19 is also Father's Day.

In New Orleans, Louisiana, which was a major port of entry for Sicilian immigrants during the late 19th century, the Feast of Saint Joseph is a citywide event. Both public and private Saint Joseph's altars are traditionally built. The altars are usually open to any visitor who wishes to pay homage. The food is generally distributed to charity after the altar is dismantled.[13]

There are also parades in honor of Saint Joseph and the Italian population of New Orleans which are similar to the many marching clubs and truck parades of Mardi Gras and Saint Patrick's Day. Tradition in New Orleans also holds that by burying a small statue of Saint Joseph upside down in the front yard of a house, that house will sell more promptly. In addition to the above traditions, some groups of Mardi Gras Indians stage their last procession of the season on the Sunday nearest to Saint Joseph's Day otherwise known as "Super Sunday," after which their costumes are dismantled.[14]

Saint Joseph's Day is also celebrated in other American communities with high proportions of Italians such as New York City; Utica/Rome, NY, Syracuse, NY, Niagara Falls, NY, Buffalo, NY, Hawthorne, NJ, Hoboken, NJ, Jersey City, NJ; Kansas City, MO; and Chicago;[15] Gloucester, Mass.; and Providence, Rhode Island, where observance (which takes place just after Saint Patrick's Day) often is expressed through "the wearing of the red", i.e., wearing red clothing or accessories similar to the wearing of green on Saint Patrick's Day. Saint Joseph's Day tables may also be found in Rockford and Elmwood Park, Illinois

And being a fan of the Greco-Roman pantheon, a lot of this is exactly what I see with the catholic denomination.

IanRG said:

Further evidence that St Joseph was not made patron Saint of travelers to replace Mercury by Constantine:

.

Although the veneration of Joseph seems to have begun in Egypt, the earliest Western devotion to him dates from the early 14th century, when the Servites, an order of mendicant friars, observed his feast on March 19, the traditional day of his death. Among the subsequent promoters of the devotion were Pope Sixtus IV, who introduced it at Rome about 1479, and the celebrated 16th-century mystic St. Teresa of Ávila. Already patron of Mexico, Canada, and Belgium, Joseph was declared patron of the universal church by Pope Pius IX in 1870. In 1955 Pope Pius XII established the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker on May 1 as a counter-celebration to the communists’ May Day.

.

Prior to this a mass was offered in Joseph's honour as Jesus' foster father from around 313 begining not in Rome but in the East.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #36 posted 01/04/19 6:51am

OldFriends4Sal
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moderator

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #37 posted 01/04/19 11:09am

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

avatar

The thiing that I find interesting about the newer religions is my argument that if Gods plan is implemented through your religion then why did he wait thousands of years to inspire it on the planet?

2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #38 posted 01/04/19 12:26pm

onlyforaminute

I am still curious to know the point of all this was.

"The sole purpose of a child's middle name is so he can tell when he's really in trouble.

- Somebody
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Reply #39 posted 01/04/19 2:24pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

But where did this stuff come from? Like my friend literally has an shrine to St Joseph in her home. It might be because St Joseph is a large presence for Italians.

In Sicily, where Saint Joseph is regarded by many as their Patron saint, and in many Italian-American communities, thanks are given to Saint Joseph (San Giuseppe in Italian) for preventing a famine in Sicily during the Middle Ages. According to legend, there was a severe drought at the time, and the people prayed for their patron saint to bring them rain. They promised that if God answered their prayers through Joseph's intercession, they would prepare a large feast to honor him. The rain did come, and the people of Sicily prepared a large banquet for their patron saint.
In Italy, March 19 is also Father's Day.

In New Orleans, Louisiana, which was a major port of entry for Sicilian immigrants during the late 19th century, the Feast of Saint Joseph is a citywide event. Both public and private Saint Joseph's altars are traditionally built. The altars are usually open to any visitor who wishes to pay homage. The food is generally distributed to charity after the altar is dismantled.[13]

There are also parades in honor of Saint Joseph and the Italian population of New Orleans which are similar to the many marching clubs and truck parades of Mardi Gras and Saint Patrick's Day. Tradition in New Orleans also holds that by burying a small statue of Saint Joseph upside down in the front yard of a house, that house will sell more promptly. In addition to the above traditions, some groups of Mardi Gras Indians stage their last procession of the season on the Sunday nearest to Saint Joseph's Day otherwise known as "Super Sunday," after which their costumes are dismantled.[14]

Saint Joseph's Day is also celebrated in other American communities with high proportions of Italians such as New York City; Utica/Rome, NY, Syracuse, NY, Niagara Falls, NY, Buffalo, NY, Hawthorne, NJ, Hoboken, NJ, Jersey City, NJ; Kansas City, MO; and Chicago;[15] Gloucester, Mass.; and Providence, Rhode Island, where observance (which takes place just after Saint Patrick's Day) often is expressed through "the wearing of the red", i.e., wearing red clothing or accessories similar to the wearing of green on Saint Patrick's Day. Saint Joseph's Day tables may also be found in Rockford and Elmwood Park, Illinois

And being a fan of the Greco-Roman pantheon, a lot of this is exactly what I see with the catholic denomination.

IanRG said:

Further evidence that St Joseph was not made patron Saint of travelers to replace Mercury by Constantine:

.

Although the veneration of Joseph seems to have begun in Egypt, the earliest Western devotion to him dates from the early 14th century, when the Servites, an order of mendicant friars, observed his feast on March 19, the traditional day of his death. Among the subsequent promoters of the devotion were Pope Sixtus IV, who introduced it at Rome about 1479, and the celebrated 16th-century mystic St. Teresa of Ávila. Already patron of Mexico, Canada, and Belgium, Joseph was declared patron of the universal church by Pope Pius IX in 1870. In 1955 Pope Pius XII established the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker on May 1 as a counter-celebration to the communists’ May Day.

.

Prior to this a mass was offered in Joseph's honour as Jesus' foster father from around 313 begining not in Rome but in the East.

.

If you hover over the links within my quote, you will see that it comes from Brittanica, just as I can see that yours come from Wikipedia.

.

Your article agrees with mine in that both make absolutely no reference to Constantine making up St Joseph to create a Catholic only alternative to Mercury when the Catholics replaced Christians with Constantine's proclamation. This is because it is not true. Instead both state that veneration of St Joseph in the west Europe (including the Italian and Sicilian States) started in Medieval times.

.

I don't know what point you are trying to make by showing that there are people who started to venerate St Joseph more than 1,000 years after Constantine and not because he is imagined to be a replacement for Mercury.

.

From All thing Sicillian

.

Saint Joseph is considered as a symbol of compassion and kindness and because he is the father of Jesus, Father’s Day is ‘Festa del Papa’ is also celebrated in Italy on this day.

The Feast day is celebrated big time in the majority of Sicily. As well as being a symbol of generosity especially to the poor, he is also is associated with harvests. People pray to him so as to have abundant crops; his statue is often used in religious ceremonies (the blessing of the crops) to prevent famine.

.

Note: It only refers to St Joseph as being the foster father of Jesus and being a person of compassion and kindness with no reference to travel, Mercury or Constantine.

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Reply #40 posted 01/04/19 3:05pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

IanRG said:

.

Yes, there are double ups in what Saints are recognised as advocates to God for, especially as many of the major saints have a range of recognised minor areas. To your point, St Joseph is Jesus' foster father, not a Catholic only Saint added by Constantine to replicate Roman gods. St Christopher is first and foremost Saint to which Catholics, Orthodox and other denominations that recognise good and inspirational people to seek to have intercede for them (e.g. Anglicans, Lutherans etc.) in regards to traveling and travelers. He may have died in 251, so precedes Constantine's proclamation.

.

There are other double ups eg Patron Saints for large families:

.

St Margaret of Scotland

St. Adelaide of Burgundy

St. Clotilde

St. Dagobert II

Blessed Dorothy of Montau

Blessed Ivetta of Huy

St. Leonidas of Alexandria

St. Nicholas of Flüe

St. Vladimir of Kiev

.

If you widen the pool to more than recognised/cannonised Saints to anyone who has been inspiration to you then there are so many people that we ask to pray for us for many of the simple things: health, courage, strength, inspiration to good works etc.

.

In regards to the rest of what I said: Was Jesus wrong when he said that his Church would stand against the gates of hell if it was replaced by proclamation of political leader? Where do you stand on the breakup to ever expanding numbers of denominations based on anything from minor theological differences (eg the age at which a person should be baptised) to political differences (eg Russian Orthodox has just divided with the formation of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church) to making up that you found gold plates with secret texts that only you could read and these plates have subsequently dissappeared.

[Edited 1/3/19 21:28pm]

Of course He wasn't wrong. But the church(the Body of Christ) was not replaced. It never stopped being in existance.

.

Where do I stand? Denominational break-ups is because of the hardness of mans heart and his ego. Even under the Jewish sect, the Sadducees and Pharisees were political-religious denominations. And Jesus rebuked them left and right for straying from Law & the prophets that came from Jehovah. And in scripture it pointed out that the Sadduces recognized who Jesus was and moved with envy to have him crucified. That is mankinds undercurrent when it comes to denominations. To be like god.

.

The plates, I'm not familiar with, but just from what you've expressed, it's not of God.

.

The plates are the justication for Smith to make up Mormonism.

.

So the Church remained one holy, catholic and Apostolic church, just as it was in 310 when it was still illegal under Roman law, in 320 after it was made legal and in 330 after Constantine's proclamation. It is Jesus' Church that Jesus entrusted to St Peter to lead together with the other Apostles and their successors. It is the Church that St Paul and the other evangelists sought to spread and keep on target with being followers of Christ despite attempts by different Judaic, Gnostic and other heretical forces to make Christianity something else. Constantine's proclamation was very significant in the growth of the Church but did not make it new religion, not even a new denomination. The Church stood as one church, one denomination until the Orthodox split from Rome.

.

The ultimate end of denominationalism within Judaism was the between 70 and 136 Christianity separated itself from it. If we are to follow the teachings of Christ, then we should learn from the past: Where the differences are minor theological ones (such as the age a person should be baptised) or political (such as when Rome's power was waning and Constantinople's power was waxing, the latter split the Church to make their own Patriarch or a Briish king wanted a divorce) then we should be seeking to breakdown denominalisation be one church, one body of Christ as Christ taught. Where the denomination is based on making up found religious texts on gold plates that only Smith can read and few, if any others, saw before they disappeared, then this is a different religion.

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Reply #41 posted 01/04/19 3:39pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

I meant were did the theology of asking angels and 'saints' to intercede for believers come from? I'm very knowledgable about Greco-Roman rites and it identical. It is not scriptural and the torah and letters forbid this.

IanRG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

But where did this stuff come from? Like my friend literally has an shrine to St Joseph in her home. It might be because St Joseph is a large presence for Italians.

In Sicily, where Saint Joseph is regarded by many as their Patron saint, and in many Italian-American communities, thanks are given to Saint Joseph (San Giuseppe in Italian) for preventing a famine in Sicily during the Middle Ages. According to legend, there was a severe drought at the time, and the people prayed for their patron saint to bring them rain. They promised that if God answered their prayers through Joseph's intercession, they would prepare a large feast to honor him. The rain did come, and the people of Sicily prepared a large banquet for their patron saint.
In Italy, March 19 is also Father's Day.

In New Orleans, Louisiana, which was a major port of entry for Sicilian immigrants during the late 19th century, the Feast of Saint Joseph is a citywide event. Both public and private Saint Joseph's altars are traditionally built. The altars are usually open to any visitor who wishes to pay homage. The food is generally distributed to charity after the altar is dismantled.[13]

There are also parades in honor of Saint Joseph and the Italian population of New Orleans which are similar to the many marching clubs and truck parades of Mardi Gras and Saint Patrick's Day. Tradition in New Orleans also holds that by burying a small statue of Saint Joseph upside down in the front yard of a house, that house will sell more promptly. In addition to the above traditions, some groups of Mardi Gras Indians stage their last procession of the season on the Sunday nearest to Saint Joseph's Day otherwise known as "Super Sunday," after which their costumes are dismantled.[14]

Saint Joseph's Day is also celebrated in other American communities with high proportions of Italians such as New York City; Utica/Rome, NY, Syracuse, NY, Niagara Falls, NY, Buffalo, NY, Hawthorne, NJ, Hoboken, NJ, Jersey City, NJ; Kansas City, MO; and Chicago;[15] Gloucester, Mass.; and Providence, Rhode Island, where observance (which takes place just after Saint Patrick's Day) often is expressed through "the wearing of the red", i.e., wearing red clothing or accessories similar to the wearing of green on Saint Patrick's Day. Saint Joseph's Day tables may also be found in Rockford and Elmwood Park, Illinois

And being a fan of the Greco-Roman pantheon, a lot of this is exactly what I see with the catholic denomination.

.

If you hover over the links within my quote, you will see that it comes from Brittanica, just as I can see that yours come from Wikipedia.

.

Your article agrees with mine in that both make absolutely no reference to Constantine making up St Joseph to create a Catholic only alternative to Mercury when the Catholics replaced Christians with Constantine's proclamation. This is because it is not true. Instead both state that veneration of St Joseph in the west Europe (including the Italian and Sicilian States) started in Medieval times.

.

I don't know what point you are trying to make by showing that there are people who started to venerate St Joseph more than 1,000 years after Constantine and not because he is imagined to be a replacement for Mercury.

.

From All thing Sicillian

.

Saint Joseph is considered as a symbol of compassion and kindness and because he is the father of Jesus, Father’s Day is ‘Festa del Papa’ is also celebrated in Italy on this day.

The Feast day is celebrated big time in the majority of Sicily. As well as being a symbol of generosity especially to the poor, he is also is associated with harvests. People pray to him so as to have abundant crops; his statue is often used in religious ceremonies (the blessing of the crops) to prevent famine.

.

Note: It only refers to St Joseph as being the foster father of Jesus and being a person of compassion and kindness with no reference to travel, Mercury or Constantine.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #42 posted 01/04/19 4:04pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Luv4u love this post is very confusing lol

It seems like you should have started with a premise of of a religion you don't believe is man made lol

luv4u said:

What is your opinion/belief about man made religions?


49599675_1976664695721334_853285284454858752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=667db9b4897dbb085545a9a0acc8a4af&oe=5C9933B9

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #43 posted 01/04/19 4:12pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

avatar

onlyforaminute said:

I am still curious to know the point of all this was.

Discussion! lol

2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #44 posted 01/04/19 4:22pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

I meant were did the theology of asking angels and 'saints' to intercede for believers come from? It is not scriptural and the torah and letters forbid this.

IanRG said:

.

If you hover over the links within my quote, you will see that it comes from Brittanica, just as I can see that yours come from Wikipedia.

.

Your article agrees with mine in that both make absolutely no reference to Constantine making up St Joseph to create a Catholic only alternative to Mercury when the Catholics replaced Christians with Constantine's proclamation. This is because it is not true. Instead both state that veneration of St Joseph in the west Europe (including the Italian and Sicilian States) started in Medieval times.

.

I don't know what point you are trying to make by showing that there are people who started to venerate St Joseph more than 1,000 years after Constantine and not because he is imagined to be a replacement for Mercury.

.

From All thing Sicillian

.

Saint Joseph is considered as a symbol of compassion and kindness and because he is the father of Jesus, Father’s Day is ‘Festa del Papa’ is also celebrated in Italy on this day.

The Feast day is celebrated big time in the majority of Sicily. As well as being a symbol of generosity especially to the poor, he is also is associated with harvests. People pray to him so as to have abundant crops; his statue is often used in religious ceremonies (the blessing of the crops) to prevent famine.

.

Note: It only refers to St Joseph as being the foster father of Jesus and being a person of compassion and kindness with no reference to travel, Mercury or Constantine.

.

I will go with the Psalms where the author asks the hosts of Heaven join with them to pray to God.

.

I will heed the words of Jesus warning not to despise others because those in heaven who protect them always see the face of God.

.

I accept the understandings from the Revelation that twice refer to people of God in Heaven taking the prayers of Saints before the Lamb and God.

.

Have you never prayed for someone else? Have you never asked someone else to pray for you or for someone you love? We who live in Christ ask this all the time. As people who live in Christ, death of the body is not the end. We continue to live in Christ. With what Jesus taught I see no reason why we would cease to care about our loved ones just because our time on Earth has ended.

.

None of this has anything to do with Constantine making up St Joseph as a replacement for Mercury - espacially when veneration of St Joseph in Italy/Sicily is a much more recent thing.

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Reply #45 posted 01/04/19 6:10pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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IanRG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I meant were did the theology of asking angels and 'saints' to intercede for believers come from? It is not scriptural and the torah and letters forbid this.

.

I will go with the Psalms where the author asks the hosts of Heaven join with them to pray to God.

.

I will heed the words of Jesus warning not to despise others because those in heaven who protect them always see the face of God.

.

I accept the understandings from the Revelation that twice refer to people of God in Heaven taking the prayers of Saints before the Lamb and God.

.

Have you never prayed for someone else? Have you never asked someone else to pray for you or for someone you love? We who live in Christ ask this all the time. As people who live in Christ, death of the body is not the end. We continue to live in Christ. With what Jesus taught I see no reason why we would cease to care about our loved ones just because our time on Earth has ended.

.

None of this has anything to do with Constantine making up St Joseph as a replacement for Mercury - espacially when veneration of St Joseph in Italy/Sicily is a much more recent thing.

1. what Psalm is that? why would those in Gods presence need to pray?

5 Give ear to my words, O Lord, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto Thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt Thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto Thee, and will look up.

.

.

2. dispising believers whose angels behold the face of God is different from questioning doctrinal issues. Even Jesus said don't add subtract or blurr His word or He would blot names out of the Lambs Book of Life.

.

.

3. If you're talking about the 24 Elders, those are Angelic beings and the proof goes back to the Levitical revelations and in the Chronicles via King David when setting up the course of priests according to the vision of Heave the Lord showed him.

And that wasn't revealed in Revelations to create a doctrine of prayer. The formula of prayer was already established. When John fell at the angels feet, the angel told him to get up and worship God alone. Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.”
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
"Unto Thee shall all flesh come" Jesus said 'Pray to the Father, in His name' 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. Pray is an act of worship. The Lord will not share His glory with anyone.
.
.

4. The work of our service is to be done while we are alive, not dead. We are alive when we are body soul and spirit. The dead are 'at rest' When we are dead our works cease, this is scripture. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the brothers asked the Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers and he was rebuked and told if they won't believe 'Moses and the prophets' they would not believe the dead either. The scriptures tell us to pray for one another(intercede) or join in faith(where two or three are gathered in My name...) 'pray for the feebleminded' making supplication for all the saints, etc What we may or may not do after death is not the livings business. It is our job to love and serve now while in the flesh. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh(death), when no man can work.
.
Isaiah 8:19 ...should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #46 posted 01/04/19 6:20pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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IanRG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Of course He wasn't wrong. But the church(the Body of Christ) was not replaced. It never stopped being in existance.

.

Where do I stand? Denominational break-ups is because of the hardness of mans heart and his ego. Even under the Jewish sect, the Sadducees and Pharisees were political-religious denominations. And Jesus rebuked them left and right for straying from Law & the prophets that came from Jehovah. And in scripture it pointed out that the Sadduces recognized who Jesus was and moved with envy to have him crucified. That is mankinds undercurrent when it comes to denominations. To be like god.

.

The plates, I'm not familiar with, but just from what you've expressed, it's not of God.

.

The plates are the justication for Smith to make up Mormonism.

.

So the Church remained one holy, catholic and Apostolic church, just as it was in 310 when it was still illegal under Roman law, in 320 after it was made legal and in 330 after Constantine's proclamation. It is Jesus' Church that Jesus entrusted to St Peter to lead together with the other Apostles and their successors. It is the Church that St Paul and the other evangelists sought to spread and keep on target with being followers of Christ despite attempts by different Judaic, Gnostic and other heretical forces to make Christianity something else. Constantine's proclamation was very significant in the growth of the Church but did not make it new religion, not even a new denomination. The Church stood as one church, one denomination until the Orthodox split from Rome.

.

The ultimate end of denominationalism within Judaism was the between 70 and 136 Christianity separated itself from it. If we are to follow the teachings of Christ, then we should learn from the past: Where the differences are minor theological ones (such as the age a person should be baptised) or political (such as when Rome's power was waning and Constantinople's power was waxing, the latter split the Church to make their own Patriarch or a Briish king wanted a divorce) then we should be seeking to breakdown denominalisation be one church, one body of Christ as Christ taught. Where the denomination is based on making up found religious texts on gold plates that only Smith can read and few, if any others, saw before they disappeared, then this is a different religion.

There is nothing in the scriptures to justify Smith. And there are scriptures that contradict what he says happens coming from God. 'if a man or an angel preach any other gospel let him be accursed'

So yes Mormonism, having so much more behind it is very 'anti-Christ' teachings. God making spiritual children on the planet Kolob, and it's ethnic bigotry in the light and dark spirits.

.

The church was birthed through the Hebrew/Jewish -Law of Moses and the Prophets fullfilled by Yeshua/Jesus. The use of the church being 'catholic' is 'distorting' the origins...'To the Jew first then to the Gentiles'

Constantine still started the proclaimation that created the Holy Roman Catholic church. And the Roman Empire was the 4th beast that Daniel saw in his vision.

..

The Catholic doctrine is very different from what the early Hebrew church believed. I'm not talking about individuals that believe on Jesus the Son of God for salvation. The Church did not begin nor is it defined by the Catholic church in Rome, Italy. But in Jerusalem Israel. There is no way praying to or 'contacting' angels or dead souls on their behalf would have been condoned by the apostles and the church. Nor the building of alter or shrines to them. The torah forbids this kind of thing. The forbidding of men and women to marry for the 'priesthood/nunery', where did that come from in the scriptures? No priest in the Levitical order was forbidden to marry. But priests and priestess were forbidden to marry when in service to Apollo(the Sun god) and to a few others.
.
when according to scripture Christ is our High Priest and advocate between man and the Father, and the church/all beleivers are the But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; all believers are saints equally. No one needs to do works accept the 1 work with is believe on Christ and receive His salvation. All believers who repent receive salvation and the baptism in Jesus name become 'holy ones ie saints'

.

I don't believe there are 'minor' theological ones as with baptism. Which mean burial and was always from John and Jesus who both baptized people fully submerged as a 'burial'. The scriptures are very clear on authenticity of the baptism and spiritual act the is the result of repentance. Which is why babies, children and anyone forced should never take place.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #47 posted 01/04/19 7:35pm

onlyforaminute

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

onlyforaminute said:

I am still curious to know the point of all this was.

Discussion! lol



I'm the question asker-er.

Like why start with those 5 instead of these 4?





Or this guy?


File:Statue of Martin Luther in Hannover.jpg
Luther


"The sole purpose of a child's middle name is so he can tell when he's really in trouble.

- Somebody
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Reply #48 posted 01/04/19 9:08pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

IanRG said:

.

I will go with the Psalms where the author asks the hosts of Heaven join with them to pray to God.

.

I will heed the words of Jesus warning not to despise others because those in heaven who protect them always see the face of God.

.

I accept the understandings from the Revelation that twice refer to people of God in Heaven taking the prayers of Saints before the Lamb and God.

.

Have you never prayed for someone else? Have you never asked someone else to pray for you or for someone you love? We who live in Christ ask this all the time. As people who live in Christ, death of the body is not the end. We continue to live in Christ. With what Jesus taught I see no reason why we would cease to care about our loved ones just because our time on Earth has ended.

.

None of this has anything to do with Constantine making up St Joseph as a replacement for Mercury - espacially when veneration of St Joseph in Italy/Sicily is a much more recent thing.

1. what Psalm is that? why would those in Gods presence need to pray?

5 Give ear to my words, O Lord, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto Thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt Thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto Thee, and will look up.

.

.

2. dispising believers whose angels behold the face of God is different from questioning doctrinal issues. Even Jesus said don't add subtract or blurr His word or He would blot names out of the Lambs Book of Life.

.

.

3. If you're talking about the 24 Elders, those are Angelic beings and the proof goes back to the Levitical revelations and in the Chronicles via King David when setting up the course of priests according to the vision of Heave the Lord showed him.

And that wasn't revealed in Revelations to create a doctrine of prayer. The formula of prayer was already established. When John fell at the angels feet, the angel told him to get up and worship God alone. Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.”
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
"Unto Thee shall all flesh come" Jesus said 'Pray to the Father, in His name' 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. Pray is an act of worship. The Lord will not share His glory with anyone.
.
.

4. The work of our service is to be done while we are alive, not dead. We are alive when we are body soul and spirit. The dead are 'at rest' When we are dead our works cease, this is scripture. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the brothers asked the Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers and he was rebuked and told if they won't believe 'Moses and the prophets' they would not believe the dead either. The scriptures tell us to pray for one another(intercede) or join in faith(where two or three are gathered in My name...) 'pray for the feebleminded' making supplication for all the saints, etc What we may or may not do after death is not the livings business. It is our job to love and serve now while in the flesh. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh(death), when no man can work.
.
Isaiah 8:19 ...should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?

.

Hold the bus. You are using a thread that is not about Catholics to attack my faith. You are making assertions about St Joseph that are patently not true - He was not made up by Constantine to be venerated as an alternative to Mercury - your own quotes discredit that theory by stating the reasons and the period from which the Sicilians started to venerate St Joseph. You have not addressed this. You have left a number of questions unanswered.

.

Your arguments are confused.

1 Catholics etc. should not pray to a Saint. This is not how intercession is understood by Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran teaching. Christians and people of many other faiths may ask others to pray for them or for others. They will also pray directly to God themselves. One does not preclude the other. Quoting a place that talks about the latter does not mean there is no discussion or practice of the former. Prayer is communication with God - it is to praise and thank God and to seek help for yourself and others. Only one of these reasons ceases to be necessary once you are in the presence of God. That is to seek help for yourself to be one with God. The psalms (not just one) that ask the hosts of Heaven to join with them in Praise are literally asking the hosts of Heaven to pray with them to God.

.

2 Jesus warning people not despise others because the angels that look after those that may be despised always see the face of God has nothing to do with my commentary on doctrinal differences. It is Jesus literally saying that people in Heaven DO look out for those on Earth.

.

3 The nature of the elders is your assumption. There are many who don't agree that this must be Angels:

.

First, the reference to the twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning. Their role is to serve as "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14; cf. Matt. 18:10). The church, on the other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with Christ (2:26–27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4; Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2–3; 2 Tim. 2:12).

Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church. There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels. (Some believe that "elders" in Isaiah 24:23 refers to angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further, "elder" would be an inappropriate term to describe angels, who do not age.

While angels do appear in white (e.g., John 20:12; Acts 1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers. That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to "buy from Me ... white garments so that you may clothe yourself" (3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will "clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean" (19:8). White garments symbolize Christ’s righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.

That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans. Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. Stephanos (crown) is the victor's crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory. Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (2:10). "Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things," wrote Paul. "They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable" (1 Cor. 9:25). He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: "In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." James wrote of "the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12), and Peter of "the unfading crown of glory" (1 Pet. 5:4). Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer's crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them. [2]

.

Your argument also misses the point - No one said it was the first mention of the 24 Elders. The most important part is not the 24 Elders but the prayers of the Saints that are presented to the Lamb and to God. The rest of your argument is based on the incorrect belief that asking someone to pray for you means you are worshiping that someone. It does not.

.

The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man actually proves that Jesus understands that people do care about those they left behind after death of the body. Why on earth would Jesus teach a parable about people caring about others after death if this was not even possible and was counter to Jesus' teaching? The rich man seeks to get Lazarus sent back to warn his brothers - clearly he is caring for the living post death. In the Parable the teaching from Abraham's answer is simply that they would not listen - It is not the dead don't concern themselves with showing love and care for living.

.

4 Is showing care and love for those you leave behind "work". This is a very blinkered view and is contrary to Bible. The works in the Bible are the struggles for yourself and others that we all endure in life. It is what we can do whilst we are here - it does not means that our love and care for others dies with our body, just that what we can do about it is different.

[Edited 1/4/19 23:52pm]

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Reply #49 posted 01/04/19 9:46pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

IanRG said:

.

The plates are the justication for Smith to make up Mormonism.

.

So the Church remained one holy, catholic and Apostolic church, just as it was in 310 when it was still illegal under Roman law, in 320 after it was made legal and in 330 after Constantine's proclamation. It is Jesus' Church that Jesus entrusted to St Peter to lead together with the other Apostles and their successors. It is the Church that St Paul and the other evangelists sought to spread and keep on target with being followers of Christ despite attempts by different Judaic, Gnostic and other heretical forces to make Christianity something else. Constantine's proclamation was very significant in the growth of the Church but did not make it new religion, not even a new denomination. The Church stood as one church, one denomination until the Orthodox split from Rome.

.

The ultimate end of denominationalism within Judaism was the between 70 and 136 Christianity separated itself from it. If we are to follow the teachings of Christ, then we should learn from the past: Where the differences are minor theological ones (such as the age a person should be baptised) or political (such as when Rome's power was waning and Constantinople's power was waxing, the latter split the Church to make their own Patriarch or a Briish king wanted a divorce) then we should be seeking to breakdown denominalisation be one church, one body of Christ as Christ taught. Where the denomination is based on making up found religious texts on gold plates that only Smith can read and few, if any others, saw before they disappeared, then this is a different religion.

There is nothing in the scriptures to justify Smith. And there are scriptures that contradict what he says happens coming from God. 'if a man or an angel preach any other gospel let him be accursed'

So yes Mormonism, having so much more behind it is very 'anti-Christ' teachings. God making spiritual children on the planet Kolob, and it's ethnic bigotry in the light and dark spirits.

.

The church was birthed through the Hebrew/Jewish -Law of Moses and the Prophets fullfilled by Yeshua/Jesus. The use of the church being 'catholic' is 'distorting' the origins...'To the Jew first then to the Gentiles'

Constantine still started the proclaimation that created the Holy Roman Catholic church. And the Roman Empire was the 4th beast that Daniel saw in his vision.

..

The Catholic doctrine is very different from what the early Hebrew church believed. I'm not talking about individuals that believe on Jesus the Son of God for salvation. The Church did not begin nor is it defined by the Catholic church in Rome, Italy. But in Jerusalem Israel. There is no way praying to or 'contacting' angels or dead souls on their behalf would have been condoned by the apostles and the church. Nor the building of alter or shrines to them. The torah forbids this kind of thing. The forbidding of men and women to marry for the 'priesthood/nunery', where did that come from in the scriptures? No priest in the Levitical order was forbidden to marry. But priests and priestess were forbidden to marry when in service to Apollo(the Sun god) and to a few others.
.
when according to scripture Christ is our High Priest and advocate between man and the Father, and the church/all beleivers are the But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; all believers are saints equally. No one needs to do works accept the 1 work with is believe on Christ and receive His salvation. All believers who repent receive salvation and the baptism in Jesus name become 'holy ones ie saints'

.

I don't believe there are 'minor' theological ones as with baptism. Which mean burial and was always from John and Jesus who both baptized people fully submerged as a 'burial'. The scriptures are very clear on authenticity of the baptism and spiritual act the is the result of repentance. Which is why babies, children and anyone forced should never take place.

.

The Christian Church was birthed through Jesus. Jesus is the Head and we are the Body. - The Bible is specific about this. The term "catholic" refers to its universality - its complete oneness. This Universal Church stands before the gates of Hell and has not fallen.

.

Daniel's fourth beast has been variously interpreted as many different things over time - all with integrity of a person seeking to label a person as the Anti-Christ or apply a Nostrodamus quatrain. Regardless, even if it was the Roman Empire, the Church is not the Roman Empire.

.

You are confusing Early Judaism with Christianity, the precursor with the fulfilment. And all for what? There is not a single Christian Church today nor since Jesus' Death and Resurrection that would meet your requirement that they only believe what the early Hebrews did. Indeed the same can be said for Jews from a lot earlier than this date.

.

You are meandering further and further from the topic with old arguments created to justify the fracturing of Christian Universality in the post medieval time periods.

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Reply #50 posted 01/05/19 8:08am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Bev, the Bible was written thousands of years ago.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #51 posted 01/05/19 8:57am

sonshine

avatar

My relationship with religion is very complicated. Being raised Roman Catholic and attending Catholic schools for 12 years has left me with the guilt and shame baggage I believe is intentional. Why?! More recently I have been on a journey to fill a spiritual void that has taken me from a shamann to a small evangelical community led by a man I have deep respect for. Yet I still feel a disconnect I can't explain.
It's a hurtful place, the world, in and of itself. We don't need to add to it. We all need one another. ~ PRN
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Reply #52 posted 01/05/19 11:11am

onlyforaminute

The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States

1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members
2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members
3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members
4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members
7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members
12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members
13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members
"The sole purpose of a child's middle name is so he can tell when he's really in trouble.

- Somebody
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Reply #53 posted 01/06/19 7:57am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

I'll straighten this out when I get back.

IanRG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

1. what Psalm is that? why would those in Gods presence need to pray?

5 Give ear to my words, O Lord, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto Thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt Thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto Thee, and will look up.

.

.

2. dispising believers whose angels behold the face of God is different from questioning doctrinal issues. Even Jesus said don't add subtract or blurr His word or He would blot names out of the Lambs Book of Life.

.

.

3. If you're talking about the 24 Elders, those are Angelic beings and the proof goes back to the Levitical revelations and in the Chronicles via King David when setting up the course of priests according to the vision of Heave the Lord showed him.

And that wasn't revealed in Revelations to create a doctrine of prayer. The formula of prayer was already established. When John fell at the angels feet, the angel told him to get up and worship God alone. Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.”
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
"Unto Thee shall all flesh come" Jesus said 'Pray to the Father, in His name' 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. Pray is an act of worship. The Lord will not share His glory with anyone.
.
.

4. The work of our service is to be done while we are alive, not dead. We are alive when we are body soul and spirit. The dead are 'at rest' When we are dead our works cease, this is scripture. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the brothers asked the Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers and he was rebuked and told if they won't believe 'Moses and the prophets' they would not believe the dead either. The scriptures tell us to pray for one another(intercede) or join in faith(where two or three are gathered in My name...) 'pray for the feebleminded' making supplication for all the saints, etc What we may or may not do after death is not the livings business. It is our job to love and serve now while in the flesh. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh(death), when no man can work.
.
Isaiah 8:19 ...should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?

.

Hold the bus. You are using a thread that is not about Catholics to attack my faith. You are making assertions about St Joseph that are patently not true - He was not made up by Constantine to be venerated as an alternative to Mercury - your own quotes discredit that theory by stating the reasons and the period from which the Sicilians started to venerate St Joseph. You have not addressed this. You have left a number of questions unanswered.

.

Your arguments are confused.

1 Catholics etc. should not pray to a Saint. This is not how intercession is understood by Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran teaching. Christians and people of many other faiths may ask others to pray for them or for others. They will also pray directly to God themselves. One does not preclude the other. Quoting a place that talks about the latter does not mean there is no discussion or practice of the former. Prayer is communication with God - it is to praise and thank God and to seek help for yourself and others. Only one of these reasons ceases to be necessary once you are in the presence of God. That is to seek help for yourself to be one with God. The psalms (not just one) that ask the hosts of Heaven to join with them in Praise are literally asking the hosts of Heaven to pray with them to God.

.

2 Jesus warning people not despise others because the angels that look after those that may be despised always see the face of God has nothing to do with my commentary on doctrinal differences. It is Jesus literally saying that people in Heaven DO look out for those on Earth.

.

3 The nature of the elders is your assumption. There are many who don't agree that this must be Angels:

.

First, the reference to the twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning. Their role is to serve as "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14; cf. Matt. 18:10). The church, on the other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with Christ (2:26–27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4; Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2–3; 2 Tim. 2:12).

Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church. There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels. (Some believe that "elders" in Isaiah 24:23 refers to angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further, "elder" would be an inappropriate term to describe angels, who do not age.

While angels do appear in white (e.g., John 20:12; Acts 1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers. That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to "buy from Me ... white garments so that you may clothe yourself" (3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will "clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean" (19:8). White garments symbolize Christ’s righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.

That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans. Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. Stephanos (crown) is the victor's crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory. Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (2:10). "Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things," wrote Paul. "They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable" (1 Cor. 9:25). He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: "In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." James wrote of "the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12), and Peter of "the unfading crown of glory" (1 Pet. 5:4). Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer's crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them. [2]

.

Your argument also misses the point - No one said it was the first mention of the 24 Elders. The most important part is not the 24 Elders but the prayers of the Saints that are presented to the Lamb and to God. The rest of your argument is based on the incorrect belief that asking someone to pray for you means you are worshiping that someone. It does not.

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The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man actually proves that Jesus understands that people do care about those they left behind after death of the body. Why on earth would Jesus teach a parable about people caring about others after death if this was not even possible and was counter to Jesus' teaching? The rich man seeks to get Lazarus sent back to warn his brothers - clearly he is caring for the living post death. In the Parable the teaching from Abraham's answer is simply that they would not listen - It is not the dead don't concern themselves with showing love and care for living.

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4 Is showing care and love for those you leave behind "work". This is a very blinkered view and is contrary to Bible. The works in the Bible are the struggles for yourself and others that we all endure in life. It is what we can do whilst we are here - it does not means that our love and care for others dies with our body, just that what we can do about it is different.

[Edited 1/4/19 23:52pm]

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #54 posted 01/06/19 7:58am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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who actually created the term Protestant?

onlyforaminute said:

The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States 1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members 2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members 3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members 4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members 5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members 6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members 7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members 8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members 9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members 10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members 11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members 12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members 13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members 14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members 15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #55 posted 01/06/19 10:10am

onlyforaminute

OldFriends4Sale said:

who actually created the term Protestant?





onlyforaminute said:


The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States 1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members 2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members 3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members 4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members 5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members 6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members 7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members 8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members 9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members 10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members 11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members 12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members 13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members 14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members 15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members



1539, from German or French protestant , from Latin protestantem (nominative protestans ), present participle of protestari (see protest (n.)). Originally used of German princes and free cities who declared their dissent from ("protested") the decision of the Diet of Speyer (1529), which reversed the liberal terms allowed Lutherans in 1526.


1530–40; < German or French, for Latin prōtestantēs, plural of present participle of prōtestārī to bear public witness. See protest, -ant


A Christian belonging to one of the three great divisions of Christianity (the other two are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church). Protestantism began during the Renaissance as a protest against the established (Roman Catholic) church (see also established church). That protest, led by Martin Luther, was called the Reformation, because it sprang from a desire to reform the church and cleanse it of corruption, such as the selling of indulgences.
"The sole purpose of a child's middle name is so he can tell when he's really in trouble.

- Somebody
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Reply #56 posted 01/06/19 12:29pm

IanRG

onlyforaminute said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

who actually created the term Protestant?

1539, from German or French protestant , from Latin protestantem (nominative protestans ), present participle of protestari (see protest (n.)). Originally used of German princes and free cities who declared their dissent from ("protested") the decision of the Diet of Speyer (1529), which reversed the liberal terms allowed Lutherans in 1526. 1530–40; < German or French, for Latin prōtestantēs, plural of present participle of prōtestārī to bear public witness. See protest, -ant A Christian belonging to one of the three great divisions of Christianity (the other two are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church). Protestantism began during the Renaissance as a protest against the established (Roman Catholic) church (see also established church). That protest, led by Martin Luther, was called the Reformation, because it sprang from a desire to reform the church and cleanse it of corruption, such as the selling of indulgences.

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Yes, it comes from Martin Luther's Protest with his protest being seen as the start the third major group in the Christian Church, the other two being Catholics and Orthodox who split in the Great Schism in 1054.

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The first split was political - the power of the Western Church (centred in Rome since the Apostle St Peter) was waning and the power of the Eastern Church was waxing (in the Constantinople area since the Apostle St Andrew with the 4 key ecumenical synods from 328 to 451 and other changes elevating Constanintople to being the "New Rome"). These pressures built up until in the 1054 there was the Great Schism which created the first 2 divisions - The Catholics and the Orthodox.

.

Obviously, there were other divisions. The most important of these was between 70 and 136 with the split between the Christians (gentiles and, now, former Jews) and the remaing Jews. Outside of short lived internal heresies and attempts by outside groups to merge, change or take over Chrsitianity, there was also:

- the Nestorians in 431 currently in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and India.

- Monophysites (including the Coptics) in 451 currently in Egypt, Ethiopia, Armenia, Cilicia, Jerusalem, Syria and India (and elsewhere since modern immigrations and as refugees),

- Etc.

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The problem with tagging "Protestents" as the 3rd major division is that it is a collection of different divisions. The other two divsions have a much higher degree of solidarity. The Catholics have some splits between different Orders and between Western and Eastern Rite Catholics. They have the struggle between them and the Chinese government which is still being worked out. The Orthodox have divisions between nations or groups of nations. etc. However the Protestants have many, many more and often quite sharply different divisions so it is much more of a shattering. Just on the major groupings you have Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans (split between High Church Anglo-Catholics and Low Church Anglo-Protestants), Anabaptists, Unitarians, Congregationalists, Disciples of Christ (split between Mormons, JW, 7th day Adventists, Christian Scientists etc) and it goes on.

[Edited 1/6/19 16:07pm]

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Reply #57 posted 01/06/19 1:30pm

onlyforaminute

Yep there are a lot of denominations that fall under the protestant tradition. So I guess that ain't it then.
"The sole purpose of a child's middle name is so he can tell when he's really in trouble.

- Somebody
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Reply #58 posted 01/13/19 10:04am

Graycap23

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Just another form of manipulation.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #59 posted 01/14/19 4:12pm

CherryMoon57

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luv4u said:

What is your opinion/belief about man made religions?


49599675_1976664695721334_853285284454858752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=667db9b4897dbb085545a9a0acc8a4af&oe=5C9933B9



These fairly recent Christian denominations emerged around the 'Enlightenment' period - a movement that challenged the catholic church / the concept of religion / God / Absolutism. It revolutionised Europe between 1685-1815 and shaped the 'New World' in which we are living today.

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