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Thread started 07/25/18 11:13am

ThatWhiteDude

Elin Ersson is a hero - She stopped a Deportation from Othenburg to Afghanistan

This brave lady stood up and refused to sit down until an old passenger was allowed to leave the plain. This guy would've been deported from Othenburg to Afghanistan and he most likely would've been killed. Others followed to help her.

At one point a guy says: "People won't get to their destination because of you."

And she answers: "Yes, but they won't die and he will."

https://www.facebook.com/...mp;theater

[Edited 7/25/18 11:37am]

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Reply #1 posted 07/28/18 12:29pm

FullLipsDotNos
e

avatar

ThatWhiteDude said:

This brave lady stood up and refused to sit down until an old passenger was allowed to leave the plain. This guy would've been deported from Othenburg to Afghanistan and he most likely would've been killed. Others followed to help her.

At one point a guy says: "People won't get to their destination because of you."

And she answers: "Yes, but they won't die and he will."

https://www.facebook.com/...mp;theater

[Edited 7/25/18 11:37am]

She was amazing.

However, I'm afraid they'll still find a way to deport him sad

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Reply #2 posted 07/28/18 4:31pm

EmmaMcG

Why was he being deported?
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Reply #3 posted 07/29/18 11:07am

poppys

ThatWhiteDude said:

This brave lady stood up and refused to sit down until an old passenger was allowed to leave the plain. This guy would've been deported from Othenburg to Afghanistan and he most likely would've been killed. Others followed to help her.

At one point a guy says: "People won't get to their destination because of you."

And she answers: "Yes, but they won't die and he will."

https://www.facebook.com/...mp;theater


woot! Good for her standing up and getting others on board to help. She looks like a kid too. Kudos.

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Reply #4 posted 07/29/18 1:00pm

NorthC

That's because she is a kid. And Emma's question hasn't been answered so far. The girl in the video also said that the man would "most likely" be killed. So there is no proof of that. Who is the man we're talking about? Why would he "most likely" be killed? ThatWhiteDude can't even get the name of the city right. Gothenburg is in Sweden. ThatWhiteDude is from Germany. Can you please provide us with some background information, Dude?
[Edited 7/29/18 13:01pm]
[Edited 7/29/18 13:08pm]
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Reply #5 posted 07/29/18 1:52pm

ThatWhiteDude

NorthC said:

That's because she is a kid. And Emma's question hasn't been answered so far. The girl in the video also said that the man would "most likely" be killed. So there is no proof of that. Who is the man we're talking about? Why would he "most likely" be killed? ThatWhiteDude can't even get the name of the city right. Gothenburg is in Sweden. ThatWhiteDude is from Germany. Can you please provide us with some background information, Dude? [Edited 7/29/18 13:01pm] [Edited 7/29/18 13:08pm]

I forgot the G in the name and what does this have to do with me being from germany? And I can't answer Emma's question when I'm not on the Org 'cause I feel sick for days.

Most likely be killed probably means because there's still a war going on. Wars kill innocent civilians. And if I remember correctly there's a new law that says that every refugee that comes from a supposed safe country will be deported. She wanted to stop the deportation from another refugee but he wasn't the guy on the plane. But the other refugee, who has been deported, told her about the older man on the plane.

But I already know your opinion North, you just can't see the good thing this girl did. She safed a life this day.

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Reply #6 posted 07/29/18 1:52pm

ThatWhiteDude

poppys said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

This brave lady stood up and refused to sit down until an old passenger was allowed to leave the plain. This guy would've been deported from Othenburg to Afghanistan and he most likely would've been killed. Others followed to help her.

At one point a guy says: "People won't get to their destination because of you."

And she answers: "Yes, but they won't die and he will."

https://www.facebook.com/...mp;theater


woot! Good for her standing up and getting others on board to help. She looks like a kid too. Kudos.

yes

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Reply #7 posted 07/29/18 1:53pm

ThatWhiteDude

FullLipsDotNose said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

This brave lady stood up and refused to sit down until an old passenger was allowed to leave the plain. This guy would've been deported from Othenburg to Afghanistan and he most likely would've been killed. Others followed to help her.

At one point a guy says: "People won't get to their destination because of you."

And she answers: "Yes, but they won't die and he will."

https://www.facebook.com/...mp;theater

[Edited 7/25/18 11:37am]

She was amazing.

However, I'm afraid they'll still find a way to deport him sad

Yes sad

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Reply #8 posted 07/29/18 2:05pm

ThatWhiteDude

EmmaMcG said:

Why was he being deported?

I don't know why since she was there because she thought there was another refugee, a younger man. But he was deported a day later. The younger man told her about the older man on the plane and so she stood up for him. So, that's all I know.

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."
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Reply #9 posted 07/29/18 2:16pm

NorthC

ThatWhiteDude said:



EmmaMcG said:


Why was he being deported?

I don't know why since she was there because she thought there was another refugee, a younger man. But he was deported a day later. The younger man told her about the older man on the plane and so she stood up for him. So, that's all I know.


In other words, you don't know shit. In the other post, you said you know my opinion, but you don't. I want to know the FACTS before I form an opinion. So far, you haven't provided us with facts, Dude.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #10 posted 07/29/18 2:19pm

ThatWhiteDude

NorthC said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

I don't know why since she was there because she thought there was another refugee, a younger man. But he was deported a day later. The younger man told her about the older man on the plane and so she stood up for him. So, that's all I know.

In other words, you don't know shit. In the other post, you said you know my opinion, but you don't. I want to know the FACTS before I form an opinion. So far, you haven't provided us with facts, Dude.

I know what I read. There's no need to be aggressive biggrin I wrote what I read. She came for another refugee but he was deported the next day SO THE REFUGEE SHE ACTUALLY CAME FOR ISN'T IN SWEDEN ANYMORE. The only thing they said about the older man was that the younger man told her about him. What do you want me to do? Fly over to sweden and ask her about the older man?

[Edited 7/29/18 14:20pm]

[Edited 7/29/18 14:28pm]

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Reply #11 posted 07/29/18 2:27pm

ThatWhiteDude

You can look up yourself North in case of you don't believe me. There's no info on why the older man should've been deported, but I think it might be the same reason as here in germany, because some politicians believe that afghanistan is a safe country. Here's a quote from another article:

Ultimately, both she and the asylum seeker were removed from the plane. Ersson’s protest comes as Sweden imposes tightening policies on immigration and increased numbers of deportations.

“This is how deportations in Sweden work. The people involved know nothing and they are not allowed to reach out to their lawyers or family,” she told The Guardian. “My ultimate goal is to end deportations to Afghanistan.”

https://www.thecut.com/2018/07/elin-ersson-plane-protest-asylum.html

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Reply #12 posted 07/29/18 2:42pm

NorthC

"There's no info"..."but I think"...
Now do you understand why I put the word FACTS in capitals? Sometimes I agree with Tweety, sometimes I don't. And sometimes, believe it or not Dude, I agree with you. I try to keep an open mind. See what the left has to say, see what the right has to say. But most importantly, I look at the facts. And this thread has been going on for a while now, but there's still some unanswered questions.
Who was this man that was being deported?
Why was he being deported?
Why did the girl protest?
What did she know that we don't?
Why would the man "most likely" be killed?
None of these questions have been answered so far.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #13 posted 07/29/18 2:50pm

ThatWhiteDude

NorthC said:

"There's no info"..."but I think"... Now do you understand why I put the word FACTS in capitals? Sometimes I agree with Tweety, sometimes I don't. And sometimes, believe it or not Dude, I agree with you. I try to keep an open mind. See what the left has to say, see what the right has to say. But most importantly, I look at the facts. And this thread has been going on for a while now, but there's still some unanswered questions. Who was this man that was being deported? Why was he being deported? Why did the girl protest? What did she know that we don't? Why would the man "most likely" be killed? None of these questions have been answered so far.

Obviously you didn't read right. I couldn't find info about the man! I don't know why he should've been deported because they didn't say anything about it, get it now? All I read in articles (yes I read more than one just to be sure I didn't miss anything) is that she came for another refugee that has been deported and the only thing I they said about the old man was that the younger man told her about him!

God, I'm repeating myself here but I don't think you get it. I don't have more info! Only what I read in the articles.

But what do you want to hear? That the guy was a criminal?

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."
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Reply #14 posted 07/29/18 2:52pm

ThatWhiteDude

Oh and by the way, I quoted her on WHY she protested, but like I said before, you obviously didn't read the comments right. wink And that is not my fault tho.

And to "most likely get killed" like I said afghanistan isn't safe. There are still wars going on. And people who live in war zones most likely get killed.

[Edited 7/29/18 14:54pm]

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."
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Reply #15 posted 07/29/18 3:37pm

NorthC

ThatWhiteDude said:



NorthC said:


"There's no info"..."but I think"... Now do you understand why I put the word FACTS in capitals? Sometimes I agree with Tweety, sometimes I don't. And sometimes, believe it or not Dude, I agree with you. I try to keep an open mind. See what the left has to say, see what the right has to say. But most importantly, I look at the facts. And this thread has been going on for a while now, but there's still some unanswered questions. Who was this man that was being deported? Why was he being deported? Why did the girl protest? What did she know that we don't? Why would the man "most likely" be killed? None of these questions have been answered so far.

Obviously you didn't read right. I couldn't find info about the man! I don't know why he should've been deported because they didn't say anything about it, get it now? All I read in articles (yes I read more than one just to be sure I didn't miss anything) is that she came for another refugee that has been deported and the only thing I they said about the old man was that the younger man told her about him!



God, I'm repeating myself here but I don't think you get it. I don't have more info! Only what I read in the articles.



But what do you want to hear? That the guy was a criminal?


Okay, so once again you admit that you don't know shit. Time to get off your high horse, Dude. wink
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #16 posted 07/29/18 3:46pm

ThatWhiteDude

NorthC said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

Obviously you didn't read right. I couldn't find info about the man! I don't know why he should've been deported because they didn't say anything about it, get it now? All I read in articles (yes I read more than one just to be sure I didn't miss anything) is that she came for another refugee that has been deported and the only thing I they said about the old man was that the younger man told her about him!

God, I'm repeating myself here but I don't think you get it. I don't have more info! Only what I read in the articles.

But what do you want to hear? That the guy was a criminal?

Okay, so once again you admit that you don't know shit. Time to get off your high horse, Dude. wink

BECAUSE THEY DON'T MENTION ANYTHING IN THE ARTICLES DON'T YOU GET IT NORTH??? How about you get your booty! off your high horse and start reading correctly! Google it yourself and you'll find the exact same sh*t I did. THERE IS NO MORE INFORMATION!!!!

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."
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Reply #17 posted 07/29/18 3:52pm

NorthC

If there is no information, then for the umpteenth time, that shows that you don't know shit.
You started the thread, so the burden of proof lies with you, brother, not with me. wink
[Edited 7/29/18 15:53pm]
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Reply #18 posted 07/29/18 3:57pm

ThatWhiteDude

NorthC said:

If there is no information, then for the umpteenth time, that shows that you don't know shit. You started the thread, so the burden of proof lies with you, brother, not with me. wink [Edited 7/29/18 15:53pm]

And I posted a quote from Elin that gives a little insight in what most likely IS the reason for the deportation: BECAUSE POLITICIANS BELIEVE AFGHANISTAN IS A SAFE PLACE.

She said she's going against deportations to Afghanistan. People get deported there because politicians believe it is a safe place. It's the same with germany.

There is still a discussion going on because of the deportations to Afghanistan!

[Edited 7/29/18 16:10pm]

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Reply #19 posted 07/29/18 4:00pm

ThatWhiteDude

And honestly, this thread is about a girl who was brave enough to stand up for another person, seriously and you try to find a reason to shit on her actions.

1600 dead civilians in Aghanistan in the first half of this year. So yeah, this guy most likely would get killed. And why do you care about the guy or his background? He's in sweden and you don't live there if I remember correctly.

[Edited 7/29/18 16:06pm]

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Reply #20 posted 07/30/18 12:22am

FullLipsDotNos
e

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If I understand that correctly, he wasn't persecuted in Afghanistan, just fled to Sweden, possibly to escape the war. However, the Swedes said, "Sorry, bro, but you can get by over there" and sent him back.

I've never been to Afghanistan, but the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs discourages anyone to travel there. I can't speak Swedish, so I can't check if its ministry says something similar or something different. But if it discourages its citizens from travelling there, then I think it would be hypocritical to send back Afghan refugees.

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Reply #21 posted 07/30/18 1:03am

EmmaMcG

FullLipsDotNose said:

If I understand that correctly, he wasn't persecuted in Afghanistan, just fled to Sweden, possibly to escape the war. However, the Swedes said, "Sorry, bro, but you can get by over there" and sent him back.



I've never been to Afghanistan, but the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs discourages anyone to travel there. I can't speak Swedish, so I can't check if its ministry says something similar or something different. But if it discourages its citizens from travelling there, then I think it would be hypocritical to send back Afghan refugees.



There's a right way and a wrong way of entering another country. If this Afghan guy entered Sweden illegally then technically speaking he's an illegal immigrant. Regardless of whether or not he has done anything else illegal or whatever his reasons were for going to Sweden in the first place, he's in the country illegally and by the letter of the law, the Swedes have every right to deport him. He could be the nicest man in the world but if he didn't go through the right channels then unfortunately he needs to be sent home. This Elin girl's heart is in the right place but she probably didn't think it through. Stopping one flight from taking off won't prevent the man from being deported if that's what the government wants. Unless she was just trying to bring media attention to the issue. In which case she's probably failed in that regard too because the majority of press coverage and comments I've seen have been tearing her apart for being "an attention seeking do-gooder" and other things I won't list here.

It's dodgy ground, this immigration thing. There's no right or wrong way of looking at it. On the one hand, people in poor countries are suffering and are desperately trying to escape to a better life elsewhere. And on the face of it, that sounds reasonable. But the governments of countries like Sweden, in this case, or the US or other wealthier countries have a responsibility to look after their own people before those of other countries. So the rules that are in place that say "immigration is OK but ILLEGAL immigration is not" may not be perfect in every case but it's probably the best solution to a very complicated issue.
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Reply #22 posted 07/30/18 2:04am

FullLipsDotNos
e

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

FullLipsDotNose said:

If I understand that correctly, he wasn't persecuted in Afghanistan, just fled to Sweden, possibly to escape the war. However, the Swedes said, "Sorry, bro, but you can get by over there" and sent him back.

I've never been to Afghanistan, but the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs discourages anyone to travel there. I can't speak Swedish, so I can't check if its ministry says something similar or something different. But if it discourages its citizens from travelling there, then I think it would be hypocritical to send back Afghan refugees.

There's a right way and a wrong way of entering another country. If this Afghan guy entered Sweden illegally then technically speaking he's an illegal immigrant. Regardless of whether or not he has done anything else illegal or whatever his reasons were for going to Sweden in the first place, he's in the country illegally and by the letter of the law, the Swedes have every right to deport him. He could be the nicest man in the world but if he didn't go through the right channels then unfortunately he needs to be sent home. This Elin girl's heart is in the right place but she probably didn't think it through. Stopping one flight from taking off won't prevent the man from being deported if that's what the government wants. Unless she was just trying to bring media attention to the issue. In which case she's probably failed in that regard too because the majority of press coverage and comments I've seen have been tearing her apart for being "an attention seeking do-gooder" and other things I won't list here. It's dodgy ground, this immigration thing. There's no right or wrong way of looking at it. On the one hand, people in poor countries are suffering and are desperately trying to escape to a better life elsewhere. And on the face of it, that sounds reasonable. But the governments of countries like Sweden, in this case, or the US or other wealthier countries have a responsibility to look after their own people before those of other countries. So the rules that are in place that say "immigration is OK but ILLEGAL immigration is not" may not be perfect in every case but it's probably the best solution to a very complicated issue.

I see, but I haven't heard of him having entered the country illegally. On the other hand, I don't think we'll ever know enough details (which is perfectly understandable because personal data must be protected).

That being said, I think death is a disproportionate punishment for entering a country illegally. I think there should be different rules for people whose lives are threatened.

And while I agree that the US and other countries have to take care of their citizens first, they are also one of the reasons why they face a massive influx of refugees. They are those who have been bombing Afghanistan as well as others and they majorly contribute to global warming, which leaves people in warmer climates without harvest.

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Reply #23 posted 07/30/18 3:19am

Lianachan

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Very noble of her indeed, but she didn't stop the deportation.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #24 posted 07/30/18 4:30am

EmancipationLo
ver

avatar

Lianachan said:

Very noble of her indeed, but she didn't stop the deportation.

.

It wasn't 'very noble' of her, it was simply a case of totally ignoring the legal system in Sweden.

.

Sweden is, by all standards, a democratic country with a functional legal system. If you think that a decision made within this system is incorrect, there are means to appeal etc.

.

Based on the interview conducted with the young man, he was attempting to abuse the right to apply for asylum. That is a right that democratic countries grant to people when they are under threat for political reasons in their home countries. This young man lived a life in Iran and apparently hasn't provided sufficient evidence that he was under threat there. He simply tried to play the 'asylum' card instead of applying for proper visa to move to his family in Sweden.

.

He apparently hasn't done anything useful in Sweden. How could he survive? I would bet 100 € that he was supported by the generous Swedish social security system. Yes, this awful racist country with its deportation rules probably fed the man all the time.

.

This young woman simply decided that she should make the call on this man's rights instead of a Swedisch court or the Swedish parliament. I don't see anything heroic in that, it's just naive and stupid imo.

prince
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Reply #25 posted 07/30/18 5:05am

EmmaMcG

FullLipsDotNose said:



EmmaMcG said:


FullLipsDotNose said:

If I understand that correctly, he wasn't persecuted in Afghanistan, just fled to Sweden, possibly to escape the war. However, the Swedes said, "Sorry, bro, but you can get by over there" and sent him back.



I've never been to Afghanistan, but the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs discourages anyone to travel there. I can't speak Swedish, so I can't check if its ministry says something similar or something different. But if it discourages its citizens from travelling there, then I think it would be hypocritical to send back Afghan refugees.



There's a right way and a wrong way of entering another country. If this Afghan guy entered Sweden illegally then technically speaking he's an illegal immigrant. Regardless of whether or not he has done anything else illegal or whatever his reasons were for going to Sweden in the first place, he's in the country illegally and by the letter of the law, the Swedes have every right to deport him. He could be the nicest man in the world but if he didn't go through the right channels then unfortunately he needs to be sent home. This Elin girl's heart is in the right place but she probably didn't think it through. Stopping one flight from taking off won't prevent the man from being deported if that's what the government wants. Unless she was just trying to bring media attention to the issue. In which case she's probably failed in that regard too because the majority of press coverage and comments I've seen have been tearing her apart for being "an attention seeking do-gooder" and other things I won't list here. It's dodgy ground, this immigration thing. There's no right or wrong way of looking at it. On the one hand, people in poor countries are suffering and are desperately trying to escape to a better life elsewhere. And on the face of it, that sounds reasonable. But the governments of countries like Sweden, in this case, or the US or other wealthier countries have a responsibility to look after their own people before those of other countries. So the rules that are in place that say "immigration is OK but ILLEGAL immigration is not" may not be perfect in every case but it's probably the best solution to a very complicated issue.

I see, but I haven't heard of him having entered the country illegally. On the other hand, I don't think we'll ever know enough details (which is perfectly understandable because personal data must be protected).



That being said, I think death is a disproportionate punishment for entering a country illegally. I think there should be different rules for people whose lives are threatened.



And while I agree that the US and other countries have to take care of their citizens first, they are also one of the reasons why they face a massive influx of refugees. They are those who have been bombing Afghanistan as well as others and they majorly contribute to global warming, which leaves people in warmer climates without harvest.



I haven't seen anything to say he entered the country illegally either but there must be a reason why they're deporting him. Sending him to certain death is a step too far though regardless. But that presents another issue of what to do with people like him. If sending them back will see them killed, what is the alternative? IF he did initially enter the country illegally there must be some form of, for lack of a better word, punishment. The Swedish government can't just offer him asylum because before you know it their borders will be flooded with people with similar problems. That's why I say it's a complicated issue that I genuinely don't think there will ever be an answer to that will suit both sides.
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Reply #26 posted 07/30/18 5:15am

maplenpg

EmancipationLover said:

Lianachan said:

Very noble of her indeed, but she didn't stop the deportation.

.

It wasn't 'very noble' of her, it was simply a case of totally ignoring the legal system in Sweden.

.

Sweden is, by all standards, a democratic country with a functional legal system. If you think that a decision made within this system is incorrect, there are means to appeal etc.

.

Based on the interview conducted with the young man, he was attempting to abuse the right to apply for asylum. That is a right that democratic countries grant to people when they are under threat for political reasons in their home countries. This young man lived a life in Iran and apparently hasn't provided sufficient evidence that he was under threat there. He simply tried to play the 'asylum' card instead of applying for proper visa to move to his family in Sweden.

.

He apparently hasn't done anything useful in Sweden. How could he survive? I would bet 100 € that he was supported by the generous Swedish social security system. Yes, this awful racist country with its deportation rules probably fed the man all the time.

.

This young woman simply decided that she should make the call on this man's rights instead of a Swedisch court or the Swedish parliament. I don't see anything heroic in that, it's just naive and stupid imo.

I agree with Liana, I think it was noble. If we move aside from the individual case in question, she has helped to highlight the plight of these men (and women and children) being sent back to who knows what? Most of us accept that war torn countries are dangerous and difficult places to live in, yet we seem happy to send people back to them in case they dare encroach on our (mostly) comfortable lives. I've said it before, I cannot imagine having to leave everything I own, with nothing but the clothes on my back, to try and start a new life elsewhere, yet we sneer at those who have the 'audacity' to try and make a life in 'our' western world away from the imminent threat to their life. We often don't even give them a chance to try and make it here.



The interview that Liana posted shows a young man whose mom and sisters live in Sweden. I don't honestly think it is too unreasonable to think that if they have been granted asylum, that he should be too. The real devil in my eyes though are the detention centres that are housing these immigrants whilst the legal process takes place - some are housed for years, in the interview he has detained for eight months. I listened to an academic once speak about the housing of child immigrants in detention centres in the UK and it had a profound effect on me. Who are we to effectively jail these people that have commited no crime aside from wanting somewhere safe to call home? Jordan and Lebanon are bursting at the seams with refugees, yet we western countries still continue to slam the door rather than offering an olive branch, in case of what? What are we really frightened of?

The young woman did not decide that she was going to overrule the courts or parliment. More that she thought they were wrong and so looked at what she could do to highlight the plight of those being deported. This was something she could do, and she did it. She may not have stopped the deportations, but she did what she could. I don't believe she was naive or stupid, merely someone doing what they could for a family who didn't know what to do. The fact people are discussing it shows that her actions have, at the very least, highlighted a problem to which many are happy to turn a blind eye.

[Edited 7/30/18 5:36am]

It never ceases to amaze me how cruel humans can be against fellow humans and animals, especially when in the pursuit of money and power.
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Reply #27 posted 07/30/18 5:36am

EmancipationLo
ver

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maplenpg said:

I agree with Liana, I think it was noble. If we move aside from the individual case in question, she has helped to highlight the plight of these men (and women and children) being sent back to who knows what? Most of us accept that war torn countries are dangerous and difficult places to live in, yet we seem happy to send people back to them in case they dare encroach on our (mostly) comfortable lives. I've said it before, I cannot imagine having to leave everything I own, with nothing but the clothes on my back, to try and start a new life elsewhere, yet we sneer at those who have the 'audacity' to try and make a life in 'our' western world away from the imminant threat to their life. We often don't even give them a chance to try and make it here.

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I am compassionate with these people, but that does not mean that their uncontrolled immigration into other countries is a proper solution.

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It's quite simple: either have an open border, or have a good social security system. Having both at the same time will lead to uncontrolled immigration of a large number of people. As these folks often haven't received a professional training that enables them to be successful on the competitive job market in Western countries, they will compete with the most challenged parts of the local societies for work. This will ultimately lead to increased frustration on all sides. The result is the rise of pouplist right wing parties, as you already can observe it in most countries in Western Europe.

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If you aim for open borders and you want to avoid such issues, the only viable solution is to reduce social security to an absolute minimum. Who should tell people in Sweden to abandon their traditional social security system? Will anyone proposing this stand a chance in any election?

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maplenpg said:

The interview that Liana posted shows a young man whose mom and sisters live in Sweden. I don't honestly think it is too unreasonable to think that if they have been granted asylum, that he should be too.

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That is unreasonable as asylum is granted on an individual basis, not based on family membership - because it is an individual right, not a family right. Just imagine someone not being granted asylum because their mother or sister hasn't received it - would you support that as well?

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The way I see it there should be three ways of immigration: (i) asylum; (ii) status as a refugee (for instance, if there is a civil war in your home country, but you are not under threat for a political reason); (iii) application for working visas (similar to the American Green Card or to the Canadian system). If you can't make it via any of these three criteria, then you can't immigrate. It would be important though to allow people to switch between these systems. For example, if people have come as refugees, they should be allowed to apply for permanent working visas if they are successful on the country's job market.

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Either way: whatever one's pathway towards immigration is, it should not be decided upon by a young girl who thinks she has more to say in her society than a judge or the elected members of parliament.

prince
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Reply #28 posted 07/30/18 7:17am

poppys

Yes, because laws, judges and members of parliment are always right, lol. This is a revealing thread.

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Reply #29 posted 07/30/18 8:45am

EmancipationLo
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poppys said:

Yes, because laws, judges and members of parliment are always right, lol. This is a revealing thread.

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I've never claimed that they were 'always right'. But in contrast to some young girl, they have a mandate to do what they do.

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If you believe that a certain institution has messed up, there are structured processes in a democracy that help to deal with it. A law is flawed? Well, there are lawmakers and there is an electorate. A judge has made a questionable decision? Well, you can appeal. A parliament does not do its job properly? Well, go and speak to the MP representing your district.

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A democratic society cannot function if everyone just does what they want to do, irrespective of the rule of law. Maybe I feel that it is my right to break into your house and take your property. My subjective evaluation of the situation certainly doesn't justify this (hypothetical) action of mine.

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In the particular situation that we discuss here, a young woman (with no apparent legal expertise, as far as I know) claims to have a better evaluation of what is 'just' in her democratic country than courts and lawmakers. That is self-righteous and arrogant, not heroic.

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There is something else worth mentioning imo. To the best of my knowledge, Sweden, Austria and Germany have accepted most of the refugees that resulted from the crisis/civil war in Syria. All three countries have been very generous, with lots of support not only provided by their governments, but also by many volunteers.

prince
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