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Reply #60 posted 12/06/17 3:18pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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maplenpg said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

not all that similar in the case in the US wasn't it just a cake?

In the UK it was a cake with a political message T "Support Gay Marriage".

to me, the message was what was objectionable and it should have been ruled in favor of the cake makers for the simple reason that we could come up with messages that are LEGAL but clearly objectionable. (unless the UK has far fewer freedoms than I thought... and if so none of this matters anyway.)

Both are using their religion as a way to try to justify their discrimination. But both discriminate - the real problem lies that they are ignorant to the hurt caused by their intolerance and claim to be 'good' religious people.

maybe religion but not necessarily but the same argument can be made to force a cake maker to make a "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong" Cake

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #61 posted 12/06/17 3:43pm

PennyPurple

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

I can't bring my religion into my workplace, I'm not allowed to force my beliefs on our customers. I work in the dental field, we can't deny care to someone with HIV/AIDS...if we do we will probably get sued. We have to do our job, no matter what our religion or beliefs are.

you can not bring your religion into your workplace as a matter of your work's policy not a matter of law.

Then how do you explain the clerk that wouldn't issue same sex marriage license?? She was put in jail, and she still refuses to issue them. In fact one of the men that she refused a marriage license is now running against her.

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Reply #62 posted 12/06/17 4:03pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

you can not bring your religion into your workplace as a matter of your work's policy not a matter of law.

Then how do you explain the clerk that wouldn't issue same sex marriage license?? She was put in jail, and she still refuses to issue them. In fact one of the men that she refused a marriage license is now running against her.

oh do you work for the government? if you work for the government it is different.

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #63 posted 12/06/17 4:06pm

PennyPurple

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

Then how do you explain the clerk that wouldn't issue same sex marriage license?? She was put in jail, and she still refuses to issue them. In fact one of the men that she refused a marriage license is now running against her.

oh do you work for the government? if you work for the government it is different.

Nope. No government worker here.

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Reply #64 posted 12/06/17 4:10pm

CherryMoon57

djThunderfunk said:

Everywhere that there's a baker that doesn't want to bake cakes for a gay wedding, there are other bakers that would be happy to. If I needed a cake for a gay wedding, I'd go to the baker that wanted my business rather than try to force the one that had religious objections. Just sayin'...


True, although this option wouldn't make the headlines like the other one did... Some people do enjoy a challenge. lol

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Reply #65 posted 12/06/17 4:23pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

oh do you work for the government? if you work for the government it is different.

Nope. No government worker here.

then what LAW prohibits you from bringing your religion to work?

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #66 posted 12/06/17 5:23pm

PennyPurple

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

Nope. No government worker here.

then what LAW prohibits you from bringing your religion to work?

My bosses law. lol

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Reply #67 posted 12/06/17 5:28pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

then what LAW prohibits you from bringing your religion to work?

My bosses law. lol

yep! but not a law. that is my view of such at work. it is up to the boss. if some aspect of your job rubs you the wrong way you can hopefully work that out with your boss...

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #68 posted 12/07/17 7:16am

TweetyV6

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What a bunch of bollocks.

What is wrong with this guy not baking a cake for them?
Is he obliged to?
I mean, it's is own business. He decides whenever he wants to sell a cake or not.

Same as if I would open a restaurant.
I would not serve vegans (get lost, eat your rabbit food somewhere else) and I would not serve customers who would want their steak 'well done'.

My business, my decision.


It's completely rediculous that this ends up at the supreme court.

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Reply #69 posted 12/07/17 7:30am

jjhunsecker

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TweetyV6 said:

What a bunch of bollocks.

What is wrong with this guy not baking a cake for them?
Is he obliged to?
I mean, it's is own business. He decides whenever he wants to sell a cake or not.

Same as if I would open a restaurant.
I would not serve vegans (get lost, eat your rabbit food somewhere else) and I would not serve customers who would want their steak 'well done'.


My business, my decision.



It's completely rediculous that this ends up at the supreme court.



I'm assuming that you are not an American. In this country, if you own a business you are legally obligated to accommodate all customers equally. This was one of the results of Civil Rights legislation in the 1960s, aimed at businesses that refused to serve Black people and other minorities. That is essentially the ground under which the gay couple are suing. The baker's counter-argument is that by making the cake it is violating his rights to his religious beliefs.
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Reply #70 posted 12/07/17 7:54am

morningsong

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I was at a restaurant last night and I notice they had a sign in their window "We reserve the right not to serve anyone" I've seen those signs in so many places all my life but never really saw it practiced. Are those signs legit?
“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #71 posted 12/07/17 8:05am

OnlyNDaUsa

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morningsong said:

I was at a restaurant last night and I notice they had a sign in their window "We reserve the right not to serve anyone" I've seen those signs in so many places all my life but never really saw it practiced. Are those signs legit?

yeah, they are legit... but that is not to mean the can do at on the basis of race or being a 'member' of a protected class. So they can refuse to serve you for just about any or for no reason other than race, gender, religion, color... ect.

They get used to kick out or ban people that give them a hassle or say skip a check or bounce a check... maybe if they are rude... things like that. But then again they do not really need the sign to kick someone out.




"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #72 posted 12/07/17 8:11am

jjhunsecker

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morningsong said:

I was at a restaurant last night and I notice they had a sign in their window "We reserve the right not to serve anyone" I've seen those signs in so many places all my life but never really saw it practiced. Are those signs legit?


They have a right based on dress and behavior (like if the patrons were loud or drunk). It can't be based on inherent characteristics, like race, religion, sex etc, which is illegal and could be the basis of a lawsuit based upon discrimination.
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Reply #73 posted 12/07/17 8:41am

morningsong

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Honestly I've never paid much attention to those signs but I finally looked it up, because they do seem off.

Can business owners really refuse service to anyone?

Under federal anti-discrimination laws, businesses can refuse service to any person for any reason, unless the business is discriminating against a protected class.

At the national level, protected classes include:

Race or color
National origin or citizenship status
Religion or creed
Sex
Age
Disability, pregnancy, or genetic information
Veteran status
Some states, like California, have more protected classes than the federal baseline. In addition to the above factors, California adds:

Marital status
Sexual orientation or gender identity
Medical condition, or AIDS/HIV status
Military or veteran status
Political affiliations or activities
Status as a victim of domestic violence, assault, or stalking
“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #74 posted 12/07/17 8:47am

2freaky4church
1

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Just name the shop the we hate gays cake shop.

DJ is da man
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Reply #75 posted 12/07/17 9:55am

morningsong

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Unfortunately this is a matter of law not ethics. Personally, I have no ethical issues with serving people, it's a cake, give them the cake but I have the benefit of being raised where I was raised, a whole lot of things don't make a lick of sense to me and just seem silly, but I aint running things.

Here's the hitch I see. The 1st Amendement.


https://www.aclu.org/other/your-right-religious-freedom

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #76 posted 12/07/17 12:08pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

OnlyNDaUsa said:

poppys said:

Cakeman's religion is probably against divorce too. So let him put a note with every cake saying he will reimburse them for the cake if they get a divorce. Just to keep his spiritual world intact.

absurd...

Well it really isn't.

Either you are against 'sin' or you are not.

Do they make cakes for unwed people celebrating a baby(shower)?

If the person is gay or atheist, and want a cake do they make the cake?

There are a lot of of other scenarios that could be brought up in similar fashion.

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Reply #77 posted 12/07/17 12:22pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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OldFriends4Sale said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

absurd...

Well it really isn't.

Either you are against 'sin' or you are not.

Do they make cakes for unwed people celebrating a baby(shower)?

If the person is gay or atheist, and want a cake do they make the cake?

There are a lot of of other scenarios that could be brought up in similar fashion.

sure it is absurd. by that logic, the baby shower cake baker gives a refund of the baby is stillborn...

is getting a divorce a sin... can you reference it?

if they refused to make a baby shower cake for an unwed mother would that be illegal?

remember I am saying the cake maker ought to make the cake but should not be forced to design in a manner that is specific to anything they may not like.

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #78 posted 12/07/17 5:00pm

morningsong

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OldFriends4Sale said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

absurd...

Well it really isn't.

Either you are against 'sin' or you are not.

Do they make cakes for unwed people celebrating a baby(shower)?

If the person is gay or atheist, and want a cake do they make the cake?

There are a lot of of other scenarios that could be brought up in similar fashion.



I find that challenging. I mean if you are against sin then you don't bake a cake for people who are living right enough for you? Heck, one might as well go out of business.


I see this as a matter if married gay-couples are going to be a protected class, federally. Sounds like it's going to a drawn out fight, but one that's win-able.

[Edited 12/7/17 17:01pm]

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #79 posted 12/08/17 1:47am

CherryMoon57

This is a little like someone going into a Kosher deli asking for a pork pie...


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Reply #80 posted 12/08/17 1:48am

TweetyV6

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jjhunsecker said:

TweetyV6 said:

What a bunch of bollocks.

What is wrong with this guy not baking a cake for them?
Is he obliged to?
I mean, it's is own business. He decides whenever he wants to sell a cake or not.

Same as if I would open a restaurant.
I would not serve vegans (get lost, eat your rabbit food somewhere else) and I would not serve customers who would want their steak 'well done'.

My business, my decision.


It's completely rediculous that this ends up at the supreme court.

I'm assuming that you are not an American. In this country, if you own a business you are legally obligated to accommodate all customers equally. This was one of the results of Civil Rights legislation in the 1960s, aimed at businesses that refused to serve Black people and other minorities. That is essentially the ground under which the gay couple are suing. The baker's counter-argument is that by making the cake it is violating his rights to his religious beliefs.


Right assumption.
Didn't now that.

Strange. It's his loss of turnover & profit....

Anyhow... in that case he should have made the cake.

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Reply #81 posted 12/08/17 2:03am

Chancellor

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Masterpiece bakery is filled with Homophobic Male Bakers that slap each others Butts while they're mixing batter..Give it time...

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Reply #82 posted 12/08/17 3:52am

OnlyNDaUsa

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Chancellor said:

Masterpiece bakery is filled with Homophobic Male Bakers that slap each others Butts while they're mixing batter..Give it time...

yup licking each other's spoons and whipping each other's cream!

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #83 posted 12/08/17 3:54am

OnlyNDaUsa

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CherryMoon57 said:

This is a little like someone going into a Kosher deli asking for a pork pie...


no, because they do not serve pork...my bacon flavoured cake was a joke...but you could ask for a Hitler Cake...

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #84 posted 12/08/17 3:58am

OnlyNDaUsa

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Joking and what-ifs aside:

I believe they will say they have to make a basic wedding cake but that is it... that will be limited to the basic designs they make. No Special message or decorations and no additional services.

And it need not even be a religious objection.

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #85 posted 12/08/17 4:30am

Chancellor

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

yup licking each other's spoons and whipping each other's cream!



...lol...gotta steal that one..

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Reply #86 posted 12/08/17 4:35am

CherryMoon57

OnlyNDaUsa said:

CherryMoon57 said:

This is a little like someone going into a Kosher deli asking for a pork pie...


no, because they do not serve pork...my bacon flavoured cake was a joke...but you could ask for a Hitler Cake...


No, but they do serve pies. Some might argue that their selective choice of ingredients is deliberately aimed at excluding pork-eaters (ie. gentiles) from their customs. Pork-eaters might even get offended and contact the press about it...

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Reply #87 posted 12/08/17 5:16am

CherryMoon57

I think all of this comes as part of a much broader 'no-religion' agenda, destined to gradually erase any belief in a higher entity from this world.

"halal supermarket in a Paris suburb has been told by local authorities it must start selling alcohol and pork or else it will be shut down."

http://www.telegraph.co.u...own-tells/

"When Aïcha Tabbakhe, a French nurse, went to fill out the forms for her children’s school dinners in her small town outside Paris, she was puzzled. The box she would usually tick to say that her Muslim children didn’t eat pork wasn’t there. “Confused, I called the town hall and I was bluntly told: ‘From now on, that’s the way it is,’” she said. “Pork or nothing.”

https://www.theguardian.c...ntolerance

"Schools across the country have stopped using the terms BC and AD in religious education lessons for fear of offending non-Christians."


http://www.dailymail.co.u...ssons.html

"The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (e.g., government-operated) primary and secondary schools. The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law, especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité: the separation of state and religious activities."

https://en.wikipedia.org/...in_schools

"The current requirement in statute for an act of collective worship should be abolished, and the decision about the form and character of school assemblies should be left to the governors of individual schools."

https://www.express.co.uk...les-Clarke



[Edited 12/8/17 5:19am]

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Reply #88 posted 12/08/17 5:17am

OnlyNDaUsa

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Chancellor said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:



...lol...gotta steal that one..

you can lick my spoon and whip my... oh you mean the joke... okay! razz

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #89 posted 12/08/17 5:24am

OnlyNDaUsa

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CherryMoon57 said:

As think all of this comes as part of a much broader 'no-religion' agenda, destined to gradually erase any belief in a higher entity from this world.

"halal supermarket in a Paris suburb has been told by local authorities it must start selling alcohol and pork or else it will be shut down."


http://www.telegraph.co.u...own-tells/


That is pure BULL CORN~ this is the stuff we have to ALL stand against... it is like dose a shop for people with allergies have to sell peanuts?



"When Aïcha Tabbakhe, a French nurse, went to fill out the forms for her children’s school dinners in her small town outside Paris, she was puzzled. The box she would usually tick to say that her Muslim children didn’t eat pork wasn’t there. “Confused, I called the town hall and I was bluntly told: ‘From now on, that’s the way it is,’” she said. “Pork or nothing.”

https://www.theguardian.c...ntolerance

this is one is more iffy... to me if you have a special diet then you need to bring your own food... one reason is they can not be expexted to have seperate kitchens and seprate sets of dishes and all that...



"Schools across the country have stopped using the terms BC and AD in religious education lessons for fear of offending non-Christians."


http://www.dailymail.co.u...ssons.html

I have seen this in the US too.. it is no big deal... we all know that they years mean what they mean. (the new terms are BCE and CE)


"The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (e.g., government-operated) primary and secondary schools. The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law, especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité: the separation of state and religious activities."

https://en.wikipedia.org/...in_schools

another SICK law



"The current requirement in statute for an act of collective worship should be abolished, and the decision about the form and character of school assemblies should be left to the governors of individual schools."

https://www.express.co.uk...les-Clarke

I am not even sure what this one means...

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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