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Reply #90 posted 04/11/17 2:55pm

purplepoppy

OnlyNDaUsa said:

nd33 said:


There's bullshit going down on both sides of the Dem/Rep fence, all the more reason to identify as a fully independent human being voter. It's ok to call out the BS from either party and their representatives when you see it. That is healthier and better for everyone smile

yup and I am thinking I have never *or very rarely* sided with either one. back in 1996, I voted for Clinton. In 2008 Johnson. This time, in the primary Cruz (in 2008 Obama!)


So you voted for Obama in the 2008 primary? And as President?

Dance, shake it like a peckerwood.
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Reply #91 posted 04/11/17 6:03pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar

midnightmover said:

QueenofCardboard said:



The endless investigating into Hillary's e-mails was a big witch hunt.

Deviate from the script you have been give and use your brain.

Trump is hiding something or he would disclose his tax information.










We know for a fact Hillary went out of her way to build a private server in order to make her emails immune to Freedom of Information requests.

We know for a fact she lied about it.

We know for a fact she mishandled classified information (ludicrously claiming that she didn't know it was classified).


By contrast the whole narrative that Trump is Putin's puppet has never had any real facts behind it.

It's all innuendo and assertion.

The fact that Trump won't release his tax returns is a disgrace.

But that is not proof that he's a puppet of Putin.

As Clinton said during the debate there could be any number of reasons for that (most likely he's not as rich as he'd like you to believe).

And if Trump is Putin's puppet then why did he just bomb Syria?

Have you not been paying attention?

Trump is now supporting the terrorists just like you wanted.

That means he's going against Putin who supports the legitimate government.



That is absolute bullshit and you have no proof for it.

She operated the same way that Colin Powell told her was the correct way to handle e-mail communication.

The same way that Jim Pence is, as we speak, handling secret e-mail information.

Did you get indoctrinated into the cult of The Deplorables or something?


I don't want Trump to support terrorists.

I want Trump and everyone else in our government to spend time and money on solving America's domestic problems.



[Edited 4/12/17 0:09am]

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Donald Trump
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Reply #92 posted 04/15/17 12:01am

midnightmover

QueenofCardboard said:

midnightmover said:


We know for a fact Hillary went out of her way to build a private server in order to make her emails immune to Freedom of Information requests.

We know for a fact she lied about it.

We know for a fact she mishandled classified information (ludicrously claiming that she didn't know it was classified).


By contrast the whole narrative that Trump is Putin's puppet has never had any real facts behind it.

It's all innuendo and assertion.

The fact that Trump won't release his tax returns is a disgrace.

But that is not proof that he's a puppet of Putin.

As Clinton said during the debate there could be any number of reasons for that (most likely he's not as rich as he'd like you to believe).

And if Trump is Putin's puppet then why did he just bomb Syria?

Have you not been paying attention?

Trump is now supporting the terrorists just like you wanted.

That means he's going against Putin who supports the legitimate government.



That is absolute bullshit and you have no proof for it.

She operated the same way that Colin Powell told her was the correct way to handle e-mail communication.

The same way that Jim Pence is, as we speak, handling secret e-mail information.

Did you get indoctrinated into the cult of The Deplorables or something?


I don't want Trump to support terrorists.

I want Trump and everyone else in our government to spend time and money on solving America's domestic problems.



[Edited 4/12/17 0:09am]

Colin Powell did not pay people to build a private server in his home to handle classified emails. As for supporting terrorists, you absolutely do support them. That's who the "moderate rebels" in Syria are. "Moderate rebels" is a euphemism just like "freedom fighters" was a euphemism that America used in the 1980s to describe the mujahideen and Osama bin Laden.

If you support Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump's position on President Assad then you support terrorists. That's who he's fighting and that's who would benefit from his forced removal, just as the terrorists benefitted from the forced removal of Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gadaffi.

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Reply #93 posted 04/15/17 7:39pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar

midnightmover said:

QueenofCardboard said:



That is absolute bullshit and you have no proof for it.

She operated the same way that Colin Powell told her was the correct way to handle e-mail communication.

The same way that Jim Pence is, as we speak, handling secret e-mail information.

Did you get indoctrinated into the cult of The Deplorables or something?


I don't want Trump to support terrorists.

I want Trump and everyone else in our government to spend time and money on solving America's domestic problems.




Colin Powell did not pay people to build a private server in his home to handle classified emails.

As for supporting terrorists, you absolutely do support them.

That's who the "moderate rebels" in Syria are.

"Moderate rebels" is a euphemism just like "freedom fighters" was a euphemism that America used in the 1980s to describe the mujaheddin and Osama bin Laden.

If you support Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump's position on President Assad then you support terrorists.

That's who he's fighting and that's who would benefit from his forced removal, just as the terrorists benefited from the forced removal of Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gaddafi.




Re read what you wrote that I highlighted and look for the flaw in the logic.

You are changing the subject.

Donald Trump is hiding something or he would release his tax returns.

I think that he is in bed with Russian oil, and he stands to gain financially if the Iran-Syria-Russia pipeline prevails.

He has conflicts of interests up the ass.

And your raison d'etre on this forum is to divide and conquer the left.

You would write anything to further that goal.










"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Donald Trump
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Reply #94 posted 04/16/17 12:20am

midnightmover

QueenofCardboard said:

midnightmover said:



Colin Powell did not pay people to build a private server in his home to handle classified emails.

As for supporting terrorists, you absolutely do support them.

That's who the "moderate rebels" in Syria are.

"Moderate rebels" is a euphemism just like "freedom fighters" was a euphemism that America used in the 1980s to describe the mujaheddin and Osama bin Laden.

If you support Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump's position on President Assad then you support terrorists.

That's who he's fighting and that's who would benefit from his forced removal, just as the terrorists benefited from the forced removal of Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gaddafi.




Re read what you wrote that I highlighted and look for the flaw in the logic.

You are changing the subject.

Donald Trump is hiding something or he would release his tax returns.

I think that he is in bed with Russian oil, and he stands to gain financially if the Iran-Syria-Russia pipeline prevails.

He has conflicts of interests up the ass.

And your raison d'etre on this forum is to divide and conquer the left.

You would write anything to further that goal.










No, I am not changing the subject. You are trying to hide your position. Do you support the removal of Assad? If so then you should acknowledge the fact that his enemies are overwhelmingly jihadists (there's a reason why the Christians in Syria all support Assad and why they have fled rebel-held areas in such huge numbers). You should also acknowledge the track record. Every time we force regime change on other peoples' countries it is disastrous. It boosts terrorism. So show your hand. Tell us, do you support the forced removal of President Assad? If you can't answer this question then you will only prove me right.

And my goal is to champion the progressive ideas I believe in. To tell the truth about the world we are living in. You prefer safe and easy lies. You will join in the assassinations of any real progressive who tries to rise up in your party. You will look the other way as corporate Democrats promote right wing policies, thus you are effectively an enabler of the right wing as your support for the pro-TPP, pro-fracking, pro-war Hillary Clinton showed. I'm honest about what I stand for, but you are not honest about what you stand for.

And I repeat. Trump has changed his stance on Syria. That's why the mdia is no longer promoting the Russian conspiracy theory so hard. The fact that they've dropped that for the moment proves what I said all along. It was merely a tactic they were using to get Trump to support their evil foreign policy on Syria and Russia. It appears to be working. You should be happy about that and you should realize that that is what it was all about. But you never really understood and you never will. Sheep tend to just go with the crowd without ever really knowing that the shepherd is directing you for his own reasons. In this case the shepherd is the deep state and the shepherds' horn is the media and establishment politicians. You know who the sheep are.

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Reply #95 posted 04/16/17 1:36am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

QueenofCardboard said:



Re read what you wrote that I highlighted and look for the flaw in the logic.

You are changing the subject.

Donald Trump is hiding something or he would release his tax returns.

I think that he is in bed with Russian oil, and he stands to gain financially if the Iran-Syria-Russia pipeline prevails.

He has conflicts of interests up the ass.

And your raison d'etre on this forum is to divide and conquer the left.

You would write anything to further that goal.










No, I am not changing the subject. You are trying to hide your position. Do you support the removal of Assad? If so then you should acknowledge the fact that his enemies are overwhelmingly jihadists (there's a reason why the Christians in Syria all support Assad and why they have fled rebel-held areas in such huge numbers). You should also acknowledge the track record. Every time we force regime change on other peoples' countries it is disastrous. It boosts terrorism. So show your hand. Tell us, do you support the forced removal of President Assad? If you can't answer this question then you will only prove me right.

And my goal is to champion the progressive ideas I believe in. To tell the truth about the world we are living in. You prefer safe and easy lies. You will join in the assassinations of any real progressive who tries to rise up in your party. You will look the other way as corporate Democrats promote right wing policies, thus you are effectively an enabler of the right wing as your support for the pro-TPP, pro-fracking, pro-war Hillary Clinton showed. I'm honest about what I stand for, but you are not honest about what you stand for.

And I repeat. Trump has changed his stance on Syria. That's why the mdia is no longer promoting the Russian conspiracy theory so hard. The fact that they've dropped that for the moment proves what I said all along. It was merely a tactic they were using to get Trump to support their evil foreign policy on Syria and Russia. It appears to be working. You should be happy about that and you should realize that that is what it was all about. But you never really understood and you never will. Sheep tend to just go with the crowd without ever really knowing that the shepherd is directing you for his own reasons. In this case the shepherd is the deep state and the shepherds' horn is the media and establishment politicians. You know who the sheep are.

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that the removal of Assad will support terrorism and will be even more disasterous for Syria, there is no denying that Assad is a corrupt dictator. Unfortunately there is no 'good' outcome for Syria who lose if Assad remains and who lose if Assad goes. That is why I cannot support Western intervention in Syria other than to provide safe refuge for those fleeing the country. There is no side to support - do we support the evil dictator? or the terrorists? We shouldn't support either. Every forced removal has gone wrong so far - why add another to the list?



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Reply #96 posted 04/16/17 2:06am

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar

midnightmover said:

QueenofCardboard said:



Re read what you wrote that I highlighted and look for the flaw in the logic.

You are changing the subject.

Donald Trump is hiding something or he would release his tax returns.

I think that he is in bed with Russian oil, and he stands to gain financially if the Iran-Syria-Russia pipeline prevails.

He has conflicts of interests up the ass.

And your raison d'etre on this forum is to divide and conquer the left.

You would write anything to further that goal.












No, I am not changing the subject.

You are trying to hide your position.

Do you support the removal of Assad?

If so then you should acknowledge the fact that his enemies are overwhelmingly jihadists (there's a reason why the Christians in Syria all support Assad and why they have fled rebel-held areas in such huge numbers).


You should also acknowledge the track record.

Every time we force regime change on other peoples' countries it is disastrous.

It boosts terrorism.

So show your hand.

Tell us, do you support the forced removal of President Assad?

If you can't answer this question then you will only prove me right.

And my goal is to champion the progressive ideas I believe in.

To tell the truth about the world we are living in.

You prefer safe and easy lies.

You will join in the assassinations of any real progressive who tries to rise up in your party.

You will look the other way as corporate Democrats promote right wing policies, thus you are effectively an enabler of the right wing as your support for the pro-TPP, pro-fracking, pro-war Hillary Clinton showed.

I'm honest about what I stand for, but you are not honest about what you stand for.

And I repeat.

Trump has changed his stance on Syria.

That's why the Media is no longer promoting the Russian conspiracy theory so hard.

The fact that they've dropped that for the moment proves what I said all along.

It was merely a tactic they were using to get Trump to support their evil foreign policy on Syria and Russia.

You don't even believe this rationalization yourself, why do you expect someone else to buy into it?

It appears to be working.

You should be happy about that and you should realize that that is what it was all about.

But you never really understood and you never will.

Sheep tend to just go with the crowd without ever really knowing that the shepherd is directing you for his own reasons.

In this case the shepherd is the deep state and the shepherds' horn is the media and establishment politicians.

You know who the sheep are.




The sheep are all the people who believe the disinformation about the Democrats.

The sheep are the ones who believed the propaganda that said that there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats.

The sheep are the people who can't see that you have an agenda and that everything you write is disingenuous.

Why do you only attack Democrats and not Republicans?

What is you nationality?

What is your country of residence?

Why won't Donald Trump release his tax information?




"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Donald Trump
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Reply #97 posted 04/16/17 2:30am

midnightmover

Thank you for proving me right. I asked you a simple, but vital question about Assad and you refused to answer it. You do not want to show your hand. That is very telling.

Your views are matched EXACTLY with the views promoted on mainstream media, but you are in such denial that you even got the insane idea in your head that the media supported Trump in the election over Hillary. Given such a detachment from reality it's hardly surprising that you haven't noticed the creepy match between your view of the world and the view promoted in mainstream media. They are literally the same. That's not a coincidence. Their propaganda has shaped your views in ways you haven't even noticed.

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Reply #98 posted 04/16/17 2:43am

midnightmover

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

No, I am not changing the subject. You are trying to hide your position. Do you support the removal of Assad? If so then you should acknowledge the fact that his enemies are overwhelmingly jihadists (there's a reason why the Christians in Syria all support Assad and why they have fled rebel-held areas in such huge numbers). You should also acknowledge the track record. Every time we force regime change on other peoples' countries it is disastrous. It boosts terrorism. So show your hand. Tell us, do you support the forced removal of President Assad? If you can't answer this question then you will only prove me right.

And my goal is to champion the progressive ideas I believe in. To tell the truth about the world we are living in. You prefer safe and easy lies. You will join in the assassinations of any real progressive who tries to rise up in your party. You will look the other way as corporate Democrats promote right wing policies, thus you are effectively an enabler of the right wing as your support for the pro-TPP, pro-fracking, pro-war Hillary Clinton showed. I'm honest about what I stand for, but you are not honest about what you stand for.

And I repeat. Trump has changed his stance on Syria. That's why the mdia is no longer promoting the Russian conspiracy theory so hard. The fact that they've dropped that for the moment proves what I said all along. It was merely a tactic they were using to get Trump to support their evil foreign policy on Syria and Russia. It appears to be working. You should be happy about that and you should realize that that is what it was all about. But you never really understood and you never will. Sheep tend to just go with the crowd without ever really knowing that the shepherd is directing you for his own reasons. In this case the shepherd is the deep state and the shepherds' horn is the media and establishment politicians. You know who the sheep are.

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that the removal of Assad will support terrorism and will be even more disasterous for Syria, there is no denying that Assad is a corrupt dictator. Unfortunately there is no 'good' outcome for Syria who lose if Assad remains and who lose if Assad goes. That is why I cannot support Western intervention in Syria other than to provide safe refuge for those fleeing the country. There is no side to support - do we support the evil dictator? or the terrorists? We shouldn't support either. Every forced removal has gone wrong so far - why add another to the list?



Maple, I hate to break this to you but there is strong evidence that most Syrians support that "corrupt dictator". Why do you think Assad is still there after 6 years of bombardment by Western-backed jihadists? The reason he's still there is because he has huge support within the country. Most of the refugees have not actually left Syria; they've left rebel-held areas of Syria to get to government-held areas. This fact is almost never mentioned in the media.

This Syrian conflict is presented as a civil war, but it is not. Most of the rebels are coming from outside Syria. Their money and weapons are coming from outside Syria. The truth is we and our allies are waging a war on Syria but we never declared it. Just look into The White Helmets (a fake humanitarian group created in 2013 and treated with huge respect by the media) to get an idea of just how bad it is. They are largely funded by the American state department yet their leader is not allowed into America because of the threat he would pose to national security. The Americans think he's a terrorist yet they're paying his salary! eek Have you heard anything about that in the media?

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Reply #99 posted 04/16/17 3:26am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

maplenpg said:

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that the removal of Assad will support terrorism and will be even more disasterous for Syria, there is no denying that Assad is a corrupt dictator. Unfortunately there is no 'good' outcome for Syria who lose if Assad remains and who lose if Assad goes. That is why I cannot support Western intervention in Syria other than to provide safe refuge for those fleeing the country. There is no side to support - do we support the evil dictator? or the terrorists? We shouldn't support either. Every forced removal has gone wrong so far - why add another to the list?



Maple, I hate to break this to you but there is strong evidence that most Syrians support that "corrupt dictator". Why do you think Assad is still there after 6 years of bombardment by Western-backed jihadists? The reason he's still there is because he has huge support within the country. Most of the refugees have not actually left Syria; they've left rebel-held areas of Syria to get to government-held areas. This fact is almost never mentioned in the media.

This Syrian conflict is presented as a civil war, but it is not. Most of the rebels are coming from outside Syria. Their money and weapons are coming from outside Syria. The truth is we and our allies are waging a war on Syria but we never declared it. Just look into The White Helmets (a fake humanitarian group created in 2013 and treated with huge respect by the media) to get an idea of just how bad it is. They are largely funded by the American state department yet their leader is not allowed into America because of the threat he would pose to national security. The Americans think he's a terrorist yet they're paying his salary! eek Have you heard anything about that in the media?

Of course most Syrians will say they support Assad - better the devil you know, also better than being killed for admitting that you are for a rebel regime. Look at North Korea - most North Koreans support Kim Jong Un, that does not mean that he is not a corrupt dictator. There is plenty of evidence that Assad has behaved as a dictator over the past decade, and that many have died from his leadership.

As for that the refugees have not left Syria - 4.8 million have fled Syria whilst 6.6 million are internally displaced. That's over 11 million have left their homes - half the population. Those that stay are in desperate need of food, water and education. The rebels have not caused half of the country to become displaced - Assad has played a huge part.


I commented that there is no 'best case scenario' for Syria. Assad needs to go yet the terrorist rebels offer no alternative - I think the country would be better off if all the other countries got the hell out of there. But they are too entrenched. There cannot be a good outcome for Syria.

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Reply #100 posted 04/16/17 4:15am

midnightmover

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

Maple, I hate to break this to you but there is strong evidence that most Syrians support that "corrupt dictator". Why do you think Assad is still there after 6 years of bombardment by Western-backed jihadists? The reason he's still there is because he has huge support within the country. Most of the refugees have not actually left Syria; they've left rebel-held areas of Syria to get to government-held areas. This fact is almost never mentioned in the media.

This Syrian conflict is presented as a civil war, but it is not. Most of the rebels are coming from outside Syria. Their money and weapons are coming from outside Syria. The truth is we and our allies are waging a war on Syria but we never declared it. Just look into The White Helmets (a fake humanitarian group created in 2013 and treated with huge respect by the media) to get an idea of just how bad it is. They are largely funded by the American state department yet their leader is not allowed into America because of the threat he would pose to national security. The Americans think he's a terrorist yet they're paying his salary! eek Have you heard anything about that in the media?

Of course most Syrians will say they support Assad - better the devil you know, also better than being killed for admitting that you are for a rebel regime. Look at North Korea - most North Koreans support Kim Jong Un, that does not mean that he is not a corrupt dictator. There is plenty of evidence that Assad has behaved as a dictator over the past decade, and that many have died from his leadership.

As for that the refugees have not left Syria - 4.8 million have fled Syria whilst 6.6 million are internally displaced. That's over 11 million have left their homes - half the population. Those that stay are in desperate need of food, water and education. The rebels have not caused half of the country to become displaced - Assad has played a huge part.


I commented that there is no 'best case scenario' for Syria. Assad needs to go yet the terrorist rebels offer no alternative - I think the country would be better off if all the other countries got the hell out of there. But they are too entrenched. There cannot be a good outcome for Syria.

"Internally displaced" largely means leaving rebel-held areas to get to government-held areas. No-one is fleeing in the opposite direction. This is a fact that the media do not report. And there are many more who would leave but they fear being killed by the rebels if they are caught fleeing.

Assad is RESPONDING to the attempted overthrow of his government by foreign forces. If we and our four partners in crime (America, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar) were not funding this proxy war then Syria would not be in this state. If Assad falls the country will descend into anarchy and terror just like Libya. It's not just about the end of Assad it's about the end of a stable and functioning state. That's what will happen if the regime change maniacs get their way.

The people of Syria should decide their future but that cannot happen while international troublemakers are hellbent on regime change. Tulsi Gabbard is absolutely correct in her analysis. We are fighting a regime change war in Syria. Assad did nothing to us and poses no threat to us, but we decided we wanted him gone.

And this whole argument that "he's a dictator" is a joke to me. Just look at who our partners are in this war: Saudi Arabia and Qatar! These are not democracies. They are theocratic dictatorships. At least Assad is secular. At least he protects Christians, Hindus, atheists, etc. In Saudi Arabia the punishment for a woman driving is to have her head chopped off, so please spare me the lecture about what a tyrant Assad is.

[Edited 4/16/17 4:19am]

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Reply #101 posted 04/16/17 6:43am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

maplenpg said:

Of course most Syrians will say they support Assad - better the devil you know, also better than being killed for admitting that you are for a rebel regime. Look at North Korea - most North Koreans support Kim Jong Un, that does not mean that he is not a corrupt dictator. There is plenty of evidence that Assad has behaved as a dictator over the past decade, and that many have died from his leadership.

As for that the refugees have not left Syria - 4.8 million have fled Syria whilst 6.6 million are internally displaced. That's over 11 million have left their homes - half the population. Those that stay are in desperate need of food, water and education. The rebels have not caused half of the country to become displaced - Assad has played a huge part.


I commented that there is no 'best case scenario' for Syria. Assad needs to go yet the terrorist rebels offer no alternative - I think the country would be better off if all the other countries got the hell out of there. But they are too entrenched. There cannot be a good outcome for Syria.

"Internally displaced" largely means leaving rebel-held areas to get to government-held areas. No-one is fleeing in the opposite direction. This is a fact that the media do not report. And there are many more who would leave but they fear being killed by the rebels if they are caught fleeing.


So where are you getting your 'facts'?

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Reply #102 posted 04/16/17 6:57am

midnightmover

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

"Internally displaced" largely means leaving rebel-held areas to get to government-held areas. No-one is fleeing in the opposite direction. This is a fact that the media do not report. And there are many more who would leave but they fear being killed by the rebels if they are caught fleeing.


So where are you getting your 'facts'?

This is from Stripes.com and there are numerous statements from aid agencies confirming the same thing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vast majority of internally displaced Syrians chose government side, officials say

UNHCR staff and Syrian Arab Red Crescent (SARC) aid workers bring humanitarian aid to Syria's internally displaced persons.

DAMASCUS, Syria — Syrians displaced by war and living in their own country — mainly on the government side of the front lines — are far greater in number than those fleeing to Europe, who have received the bulk of media attention in the past year.

International aid officials in Damascus say the civil war, now in its sixth year, has forced more than half of Syria’s prewar population of 23 million to leave their homes.

“While more than 4 million people have fled the country, the real problem is inside Syria, where 8 million have been displaced, many multiple times,” said Pawel Krzysiek, spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Damascus.

“The only viable solution for those living in (war-torn) places is to leave them.”

Although nobody has exact figures on the whereabouts of the internally displaced people, or IDPs, aid officials and nongovernmental organizations say the vast majority have sought shelter in areas controlled by the government of President Bashar Assad.

“There is no doubt that many, many more displaced people are on the government side than on the opposition side,” Krzysiek said.

About 4.84 million Syrians have fled abroad since 2011, and 8.7 million are estimated to have been displaced within Syria, according to latest statistics released by the U.N. High Commission on Refugees. In 2016, the United Nations appealed for $7.73 billion in vital new funding to help them.

Because many countries are now placing restrictions on the number of refugees who can enter their borders, thousands of vulnerable people have been left stranded within Syria. Many of those remaining are too poor to leave and depend heavily on international aid agencies for food and other supplies. Humanitarian aid groups say they are hard-pressed financially to meet the needs of such large numbers of near-destitute people.

Relief organizations have been reluctant to provide detailed breakdowns of how much aid is going to areas controlled by the various sides in the conflict, citing the potential political sensitivity of such revelations. But a Western aid official said that the bulk of relief supplies is going to areas controlled by the opposition groups because the needs there were the greatest.

On Thursday, international relief groups delivered aid to the rebel-held Damascus suburb of Daraya for the first time since it was besieged in 2012, The Associated Press reported. The delivery came hours after the United Nations said the Syrian government approved access to 15 of the 19 besieged areas within the country.

It has proved difficult for non-Islamic aid agencies to deliver food and medical supplies to some areas under opposition control because the pro-Western rebels are often intermingled with fighters from the Nusra Front, al-Qaida’s Syrian affiliate.

“On the government side, things are much better organized,” said the Western official, who asked not to be named because he was not authorized to speak to journalists.

Although regime security forces have lost control of large swaths of territory to opposition groups, including the al Qaida-affiliated Nusra Front and the extremist Islamic State, about three-quarters of the population still lives in regime-held territory.

Nearly 80 percent of those displaced by the war within Syria have fled to government-held parts of the country, a European diplomat said. Less than a quarter have chosen the side controlled by the various rebel groups, said the diplomat, who could not be named under his nation’s standing rules.

“This probably also shows where their political preferences lie,” he said.

Opposition sympathizers acknowledged that most Syrians preferred the government side but denied this was because they supported the regime.

Rami Abdurrahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a British-based monitoring group widely regarded as favoring the opposition, dismissed suggestions that this showed that most people preferred the regime to the rebels.

“It is 100 percent true that the large majority of people who don’t want to escape Syria go to the regime areas,” he said in a telephone interview. But, he added: “These people don’t care about politics. They just want to stay alive and opposition areas are not safe.”

For example, Abdurrahman said at least 1.5 million people from rebel areas in the northern, war-torn provinces of Idlib and Aleppo had sought shelter in pro-government areas along the coast, including the port cities of Tartus and Latakia, because they were relatively free of the violence afflicting other parts of the country.

Among Syria’s neighbors, Turkey currently hosts a record 2.5 million Syrians, according to the U.N.

In Lebanon, Syrians — who number about 1.1 million — account for a fifth of the population. About 600,000 are registered in Jordan, where they account for about 10 percent of the inhabitants.

In Europe, nearly 500,000 Syrians have arrived in Germany, and just over 100,000 in Sweden.

Sunnis made up about two-thirds of Syria’s prewar population. Most of those joining the rebellion and those fleeing the country and settling in refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan are rural Sunnis, many of them intensely religious, aid officials say. In contrast, many urban Sunnis — who tend to be nonreligious — have sided with the government, as have overwhelming majorities of Christians, Shiites, Druze, Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.

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Reply #103 posted 04/16/17 7:18am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

maplenpg said:

So where are you getting your 'facts'?

This is from Stripes.com and there are numerous statements from aid agencies confirming the same thing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vast majority of internally displaced Syrians chose government side, officials say

UNHCR staff and Syrian Arab Red Crescent (SARC) aid workers bring humanitarian aid to Syria's internally displaced persons.

DAMASCUS, Syria — Syrians displaced by war and living in their own country — mainly on the government side of the front lines — are far greater in number than those fleeing to Europe, who have received the bulk of media attention in the past year.

International aid officials in Damascus say the civil war, now in its sixth year, has forced more than half of Syria’s prewar population of 23 million to leave their homes.

“While more than 4 million people have fled the country, the real problem is inside Syria, where 8 million have been displaced, many multiple times,” said Pawel Krzysiek, spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Damascus.

“The only viable solution for those living in (war-torn) places is to leave them.”

Although nobody has exact figures on the whereabouts of the internally displaced people, or IDPs, aid officials and nongovernmental organizations say the vast majority have sought shelter in areas controlled by the government of President Bashar Assad.

“There is no doubt that many, many more displaced people are on the government side than on the opposition side,” Krzysiek said.

About 4.84 million Syrians have fled abroad since 2011, and 8.7 million are estimated to have been displaced within Syria, according to latest statistics released by the U.N. High Commission on Refugees. In 2016, the United Nations appealed for $7.73 billion in vital new funding to help them.

Because many countries are now placing restrictions on the number of refugees who can enter their borders, thousands of vulnerable people have been left stranded within Syria. Many of those remaining are too poor to leave and depend heavily on international aid agencies for food and other supplies. Humanitarian aid groups say they are hard-pressed financially to meet the needs of such large numbers of near-destitute people.

Relief organizations have been reluctant to provide detailed breakdowns of how much aid is going to areas controlled by the various sides in the conflict, citing the potential political sensitivity of such revelations. But a Western aid official said that the bulk of relief supplies is going to areas controlled by the opposition groups because the needs there were the greatest.

On Thursday, international relief groups delivered aid to the rebel-held Damascus suburb of Daraya for the first time since it was besieged in 2012, The Associated Press reported. The delivery came hours after the United Nations said the Syrian government approved access to 15 of the 19 besieged areas within the country.

It has proved difficult for non-Islamic aid agencies to deliver food and medical supplies to some areas under opposition control because the pro-Western rebels are often intermingled with fighters from the Nusra Front, al-Qaida’s Syrian affiliate.

“On the government side, things are much better organized,” said the Western official, who asked not to be named because he was not authorized to speak to journalists.

Although regime security forces have lost control of large swaths of territory to opposition groups, including the al Qaida-affiliated Nusra Front and the extremist Islamic State, about three-quarters of the population still lives in regime-held territory.

Nearly 80 percent of those displaced by the war within Syria have fled to government-held parts of the country, a European diplomat said. Less than a quarter have chosen the side controlled by the various rebel groups, said the diplomat, who could not be named under his nation’s standing rules.

“This probably also shows where their political preferences lie,” he said.

Opposition sympathizers acknowledged that most Syrians preferred the government side but denied this was because they supported the regime.

Rami Abdurrahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a British-based monitoring group widely regarded as favoring the opposition, dismissed suggestions that this showed that most people preferred the regime to the rebels.

“It is 100 percent true that the large majority of people who don’t want to escape Syria go to the regime areas,” he said in a telephone interview. But, he added: “These people don’t care about politics. They just want to stay alive and opposition areas are not safe.”

For example, Abdurrahman said at least 1.5 million people from rebel areas in the northern, war-torn provinces of Idlib and Aleppo had sought shelter in pro-government areas along the coast, including the port cities of Tartus and Latakia, because they were relatively free of the violence afflicting other parts of the country.

Among Syria’s neighbors, Turkey currently hosts a record 2.5 million Syrians, according to the U.N.

In Lebanon, Syrians — who number about 1.1 million — account for a fifth of the population. About 600,000 are registered in Jordan, where they account for about 10 percent of the inhabitants.

In Europe, nearly 500,000 Syrians have arrived in Germany, and just over 100,000 in Sweden.

Sunnis made up about two-thirds of Syria’s prewar population. Most of those joining the rebellion and those fleeing the country and settling in refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan are rural Sunnis, many of them intensely religious, aid officials say. In contrast, many urban Sunnis — who tend to be nonreligious — have sided with the government, as have overwhelming majorities of Christians, Shiites, Druze, Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.

The bolded bit sums it up - it is less about support for Assad but more for a desire to keep them and their families alive.

But, to be picky, you said "no-one is fleeing in the opposite direction. That is a fact" - this shows that 20% of 8 million displaced Syrians are moving in the opposite direction. Hardly no-one.

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Reply #104 posted 04/16/17 7:45am

midnightmover

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

This is from Stripes.com and there are numerous statements from aid agencies confirming the same thing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vast majority of internally displaced Syrians chose government side, officials say

UNHCR staff and Syrian Arab Red Crescent (SARC) aid workers bring humanitarian aid to Syria's internally displaced persons.

DAMASCUS, Syria — Syrians displaced by war and living in their own country — mainly on the government side of the front lines — are far greater in number than those fleeing to Europe, who have received the bulk of media attention in the past year.

International aid officials in Damascus say the civil war, now in its sixth year, has forced more than half of Syria’s prewar population of 23 million to leave their homes.

“While more than 4 million people have fled the country, the real problem is inside Syria, where 8 million have been displaced, many multiple times,” said Pawel Krzysiek, spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Damascus.

“The only viable solution for those living in (war-torn) places is to leave them.”

Although nobody has exact figures on the whereabouts of the internally displaced people, or IDPs, aid officials and nongovernmental organizations say the vast majority have sought shelter in areas controlled by the government of President Bashar Assad.

“There is no doubt that many, many more displaced people are on the government side than on the opposition side,” Krzysiek said.

About 4.84 million Syrians have fled abroad since 2011, and 8.7 million are estimated to have been displaced within Syria, according to latest statistics released by the U.N. High Commission on Refugees. In 2016, the United Nations appealed for $7.73 billion in vital new funding to help them.

Because many countries are now placing restrictions on the number of refugees who can enter their borders, thousands of vulnerable people have been left stranded within Syria. Many of those remaining are too poor to leave and depend heavily on international aid agencies for food and other supplies. Humanitarian aid groups say they are hard-pressed financially to meet the needs of such large numbers of near-destitute people.

Relief organizations have been reluctant to provide detailed breakdowns of how much aid is going to areas controlled by the various sides in the conflict, citing the potential political sensitivity of such revelations. But a Western aid official said that the bulk of relief supplies is going to areas controlled by the opposition groups because the needs there were the greatest.

On Thursday, international relief groups delivered aid to the rebel-held Damascus suburb of Daraya for the first time since it was besieged in 2012, The Associated Press reported. The delivery came hours after the United Nations said the Syrian government approved access to 15 of the 19 besieged areas within the country.

It has proved difficult for non-Islamic aid agencies to deliver food and medical supplies to some areas under opposition control because the pro-Western rebels are often intermingled with fighters from the Nusra Front, al-Qaida’s Syrian affiliate.

“On the government side, things are much better organized,” said the Western official, who asked not to be named because he was not authorized to speak to journalists.

Although regime security forces have lost control of large swaths of territory to opposition groups, including the al Qaida-affiliated Nusra Front and the extremist Islamic State, about three-quarters of the population still lives in regime-held territory.

Nearly 80 percent of those displaced by the war within Syria have fled to government-held parts of the country, a European diplomat said. Less than a quarter have chosen the side controlled by the various rebel groups, said the diplomat, who could not be named under his nation’s standing rules.

“This probably also shows where their political preferences lie,” he said.

Opposition sympathizers acknowledged that most Syrians preferred the government side but denied this was because they supported the regime.

Rami Abdurrahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a British-based monitoring group widely regarded as favoring the opposition, dismissed suggestions that this showed that most people preferred the regime to the rebels.

“It is 100 percent true that the large majority of people who don’t want to escape Syria go to the regime areas,” he said in a telephone interview. But, he added: “These people don’t care about politics. They just want to stay alive and opposition areas are not safe.”

For example, Abdurrahman said at least 1.5 million people from rebel areas in the northern, war-torn provinces of Idlib and Aleppo had sought shelter in pro-government areas along the coast, including the port cities of Tartus and Latakia, because they were relatively free of the violence afflicting other parts of the country.

Among Syria’s neighbors, Turkey currently hosts a record 2.5 million Syrians, according to the U.N.

In Lebanon, Syrians — who number about 1.1 million — account for a fifth of the population. About 600,000 are registered in Jordan, where they account for about 10 percent of the inhabitants.

In Europe, nearly 500,000 Syrians have arrived in Germany, and just over 100,000 in Sweden.

Sunnis made up about two-thirds of Syria’s prewar population. Most of those joining the rebellion and those fleeing the country and settling in refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan are rural Sunnis, many of them intensely religious, aid officials say. In contrast, many urban Sunnis — who tend to be nonreligious — have sided with the government, as have overwhelming majorities of Christians, Shiites, Druze, Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.

The bolded bit sums it up - it is less about support for Assad but more for a desire to keep them and their families alive.

But, to be picky, you said "no-one is fleeing in the opposite direction. That is a fact" - this shows that 20% of 8 million displaced Syrians are moving in the opposite direction. Hardly no-one.

It was hyperbolic to say "no-one". I should've said "the vast majority".

And the person making the point you approve of is supporting the rebels so he would say that. The European diplomat clearly thinks it's an indication of where their political sympathies lie. I know if I hated a dictator and some good freedom loving democrats came along to liberate me from the evil dictator there's no way I'd flee towards the dictator. That wouldn't make any sense.

There was a great video on Youtube of a BBC journalist in Syria who was confronted by a group of ordinary Syrians who told her that the BBC was lying. When she asked what were they lying about they responded "We love Assad!". This was totally random. They were just some locals. They said the rebels were not Syrian. Also, when Assad recaptured Aleppo last year there was footage of Syrians dancing in the street. People were thanking the government for driving out the rebels (even Channel 4 News, the worst war propagandists of them all, admitted this briefly in one of their reports).

Bottom line. You need to treat everything you hear from the media about foreign affairs with extreme scepticism. They have an agenda. The misreporting of the Ukrainian coup and subsequent refugee exodus in 2014 was another spectacular example of this. Interestingly, the left wing outlets (The Guardian for example) are the worst war propagandists. I can only assume they are compensating for anti-establishment themes elsewhere by being the most loyal state propagandists in foreign affairs.

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Reply #105 posted 04/16/17 8:06am

maplenpg

midnightmover said:

maplenpg said:

The bolded bit sums it up - it is less about support for Assad but more for a desire to keep them and their families alive.

But, to be picky, you said "no-one is fleeing in the opposite direction. That is a fact" - this shows that 20% of 8 million displaced Syrians are moving in the opposite direction. Hardly no-one.

It was hyperbolic to say "no-one". I should've said "the vast majority".

And the person making the point you approve of is supporting the rebels so he would say that. The European diplomat clearly thinks it's an indication of where their political sympathies lie. I know if I hated a dictator and some good freedom loving democrats came along to liberate me from the evil dictator there's no way I'd flee towards the dictator. That wouldn't make any sense.

There was a great video on Youtube of a BBC journalist in Syria who was confronted by a group of ordinary Syrians who told her that the BBC was lying. When she asked what were they lying about they responded "We love Assad!". This was totally random. They were just some locals. They said the rebels were not Syrian. Also, when Assad recaptured Aleppo last year there was footage of Syrians dancing in the street. People were thanking the government for driving out the rebels (even Channel 4 News, the worst war propagandists of them all, admitted this briefly in one of their reports).

Bottom line. You need to treat everything you hear from the media about foreign affairs with extreme scepticism. They have an agenda. The misreporting of the Ukrainian coup and subsequent refugee exodus in 2014 was another spectacular example of this. Interestingly, the left wing outlets (The Guardian for example) are the worst war propagandists. I can only assume they are compensating for anti-establishment themes elsewhere by being the most loyal state propagandists in foreign affairs.

I completely agree with the bolded bit. But we have to trust someone, somewhere otherwise we get nowhere. I trust the bit from the article you posted and you don't; I think Assad is a dictator and you don't. We all draw our own conclusions.

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Reply #106 posted 04/16/17 8:32am

midnightmover

maplenpg said:

midnightmover said:

It was hyperbolic to say "no-one". I should've said "the vast majority".

And the person making the point you approve of is supporting the rebels so he would say that. The European diplomat clearly thinks it's an indication of where their political sympathies lie. I know if I hated a dictator and some good freedom loving democrats came along to liberate me from the evil dictator there's no way I'd flee towards the dictator. That wouldn't make any sense.

There was a great video on Youtube of a BBC journalist in Syria who was confronted by a group of ordinary Syrians who told her that the BBC was lying. When she asked what were they lying about they responded "We love Assad!". This was totally random. They were just some locals. They said the rebels were not Syrian. Also, when Assad recaptured Aleppo last year there was footage of Syrians dancing in the street. People were thanking the government for driving out the rebels (even Channel 4 News, the worst war propagandists of them all, admitted this briefly in one of their reports).

Bottom line. You need to treat everything you hear from the media about foreign affairs with extreme scepticism. They have an agenda. The misreporting of the Ukrainian coup and subsequent refugee exodus in 2014 was another spectacular example of this. Interestingly, the left wing outlets (The Guardian for example) are the worst war propagandists. I can only assume they are compensating for anti-establishment themes elsewhere by being the most loyal state propagandists in foreign affairs.

I completely agree with the bolded bit. But we have to trust someone, somewhere otherwise we get nowhere. I trust the bit from the article you posted and you don't; I think Assad is a dictator and you don't. We all draw our own conclusions.

No, I never said Assad was not a dictator. He may well be. To me that's irrelevant since we support tons of dictators. We supported Saddam Hussein for years.

But there are objective facts which are vital to the story which are too often left out. That's why you need alternative sources of information if you want to get a handle on what's going on. Ask yourself why David Cameron openly and explicitly encouraged British Muslims to go to Syria to fight (violently) to overthrow Assad. If you think there are benign reasons for that then I would ask you to go and have a lie down and come back when you're feeling better.

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