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Thread started 03/23/17 2:19pm

QueenofCardboa
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Was Jesus really the son of God?


Was Jesus really the son of God?

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
180px-R%C3%B6merhalle%2C_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG
Tiberius Pantera's tombstone in Bad Kreuznach

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera (c. 22 BC – AD 40) was a Roman soldier whose tombstone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany, in 1859.

A historical connection from this soldier to Jesus of Nazareth has long been hypothesized by numerous scholars, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who, according to Christian writer Origen in his Contra Celsum ("Against Celsus") (Greek Κατὰ Κέλσου, Kata Kelsou; Latin Contra Celsum), was the author of an anti-Christian work titled 'The True Word' (Greek Λόγος Ἀληθής, Logos Alēthēs).

Celsus' work was lost, but in Origen's account of it Jesus was depicted as the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a Roman soldier. He said she was "convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera".[1] Tiberius Pantera could have been serving in the region at the time of Jesus's conception.[1] Both the ancient Talmud and medieval Jewish writings and sayings reinforced this notion, referring to Jesus as "Yeshu ben Pantera" (Jesus, son of Pantera).

Although the hypothesis is considered unlikely by mainstream scholars given that there is little other evidence to support the Pantera paternity, outside of the hostile Jewish texts, the chronological time frame of the Pantera tomb does make the proposition a fascinating intellectual curiosity since even the Gospels acknowledge that Joseph was not the father of Jesus.[2][3] But Luke 4:22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked. Historically, the name Pantera is not unusual and was in use among Roman soldiers.[2][4]





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Reply #1 posted 03/23/17 2:36pm

IanRG

QueenofCardboard said:


Was Jesus really the son of God?

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
180px-R%C3%B6merhalle%2C_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG
Tiberius Pantera's tombstone in Bad Kreuznach

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera (c. 22 BC – AD 40) was a Roman soldier whose tombstone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany, in 1859.

A historical connection from this soldier to Jesus of Nazareth has long been hypothesized by numerous scholars, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who, according to Christian writer Origen in his Contra Celsum ("Against Celsus") (Greek Κατὰ Κέλσου, Kata Kelsou; Latin Contra Celsum), was the author of an anti-Christian work titled 'The True Word' (Greek Λόγος Ἀληθής, Logos Alēthēs).

Celsus' work was lost, but in Origen's account of it Jesus was depicted as the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a Roman soldier. He said she was "convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera".[1] Tiberius Pantera could have been serving in the region at the time of Jesus's conception.[1] Both the ancient Talmud and medieval Jewish writings and sayings reinforced this notion, referring to Jesus as "Yeshu ben Pantera" (Jesus, son of Pantera).

Although the hypothesis is considered unlikely by mainstream scholars given that there is little other evidence to support the Pantera paternity, outside of the hostile Jewish texts, the chronological time frame of the Pantera tomb does make the proposition a fascinating intellectual curiosity since even the Gospels acknowledge that Joseph was not the father of Jesus.[2][3] But Luke 4:22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked. Historically, the name Pantera is not unusual and was in use among Roman soldiers.[2][4]





.

I think you answered your own question with you tag line. This is what is now known as an "Alternate fact".

[Edited 3/23/17 14:36pm]

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Reply #2 posted 03/23/17 2:55pm

QueenofCardboa
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IanRG said:





I think you answered your own question with you tag line.

This is what is now known as an "Alternate fact".



You are right.

This is so much more "far Out" than the idea that God impregnated a virgin to produce a half god half human son.







[Edited 3/23/17 14:56pm]

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Reply #3 posted 03/23/17 3:22pm

Dasein

popcorn

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Reply #4 posted 03/23/17 3:33pm

EmmaMcG

I always thought that the idea of Jesus being the "son of God" was more of a metaphorical thing rather than meaning that he was actually supposed to be the son of God. Then again, I don't believe in God and I don't go to church to hear how I'm going to hell so perhaps I'm wrong. My uncle is a Catholic priest though so I'll ask him his opinion on it.
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Reply #5 posted 03/23/17 3:45pm

IanRG

QueenofCardboard said:

IanRG said:



I think you answered your own question with you tag line.

This is what is now known as an "Alternate fact".



You are right.

This is so much more "far Out" than the idea that God impregnated a virgin to produce a half god half human son.

.

Exactly. I know you mean it sarcastically, but, as you are asserting your belief about which is more believable then you need to justify your position.

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Whether God did this is dependent on God existing as believed in Christianity - Within this belief, do you think that the person who created the entire universe and is able to play an active part in the lives of God knows how many billion beings potentially on God knows how planets for God knows how many years will have any trouble being born in this universe as one of us? Against this we have people after the event making up alternate explanations. My contribution to this thread will only be on whether Jesus was the Son of God or of Pantera, not on the validity of the Bible. Hopefully this means it will not spiral down to the usual mess.

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The measure of whether an unsubstantiated and rejected alternate fact could be right is not merely being able to create an alternate explanation that supports your side on the issue. This is a Kelly Conway defense. Obviously people who don't believe Jesus is God will seek to create a more earthly explanation for Jesus. Without proof, this is an alternate fact.

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Reply #6 posted 03/23/17 3:55pm

toejam

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Jesus was the son of some human male and female. Probably not Pantera, despite that James Tabor makes a good crack at making the case. Tabor himself, the leading proponent of this idea, does not describe it as a "fact". I certainly wouldn't say that Tabor's hypothesis is more "out there" than the idea that Yahweh impregnated himself into a virgin. That's pretty out there if taken literally! I think the reality is that we don't know who Jesus's father was. But this is the case with most people of ancient history.

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Reply #7 posted 03/23/17 4:05pm

toejam

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EmmaMcG said:

I always thought that the idea of Jesus being the "son of God" was more of a metaphorical thing rather than meaning that he was actually supposed to be the son of God. Then again, I don't believe in God and I don't go to church to hear how I'm going to hell so perhaps I'm wrong. My uncle is a Catholic priest though so I'll ask him his opinion on it.

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You will find Christians who take it literally and those who take it metaphorically. Similarly, you will find non-Christians who think the authors wanted its readers to take it literally, and non-Christians who think the authors wanted its readers to take it metaphorically lol

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I predict your Catholic Priest uncle will either give you a confident "Yes! I believe it literally!", or give you a wishy-washy "Well, in some sense..." response. It's often hard for Catholic Priests to deny it outright.

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[Edited 3/23/17 16:13pm]

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Reply #8 posted 03/23/17 4:11pm

toejam

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A relevant quote:
.
“If you compare Matthew and Luke, as ancient biographies, with other ancient biographies, you will see that the sorts of things that Matthew and Luke placed in their birth narratives were precisely what anyone would have expected to hear in a 'beginning of the life' of a great figure. Typically what happened was that the authors of ancient biographies didn’t have a lot of information about their subject's birth because the subject came to greatness later in life. And so in these biographies, you will find “reports” and created anecdotes, signs and omens, portents and dreams etc., further stories that place the figure in precocious discussions with major state figures of the ancient world - at the age of 11 or 12 or something like that. Events that bring out his later greatness. All of those things, plus the notion that this great philosopher or statesman must have also been related to the gods in some way. And so, you will also find in these biographies accounts of how the conception and birth involved a god somehow. You will find virginal and non-virginal conceptions. But the main thing being stressed is there was no human male - it was instead a god who was involved. So all of those things are there in this literary genre.”

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- Andrew T. Lincoln, discussing his book 'Born of a Virgin?'

(taken from https://www.youtube.com/w...xQOmUiWus)

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Reply #9 posted 03/23/17 4:30pm

toejam

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QueenofCardboard said:

.

IanRG said:

I think you answered your own question with you tag line.
.
This is what is now known as an "Alternate fact".

.
You are right.
.
This is so much more "far Out" than the idea that God impregnated a virgin to produce a half god half human son.

.

Whoops. In my earlier post, I mistakenly read Queen as being serious, not sarcastic lol

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Reply #10 posted 03/23/17 5:53pm

IanRG

toejam said:

Jesus was the son of some human male and female.

.

And you know this how?

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Reply #11 posted 03/23/17 6:20pm

toejam

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IanRG said:

toejam said:

Jesus was the son of some human male and female.

.

And you know this how?

.

What sense of "know" do you mean? In the absolute philosophical sense? In that sense, I don't know. But I would say I "know" in the general sense in the same way you and I know that Pontius Pilate had a human male and female. It's how humans come about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...tilization

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[Edited 3/23/17 18:25pm]

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Reply #12 posted 03/23/17 6:32pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:

.

And you know this how?

.

What sense of "know" do you mean? In the absolute philosophical sense? In that sense, I don't know. But I would say I "know" in the general sense in the same way you and I know that Pontius Pilate had a human male and female. It's how humans come about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...tilization

.

[Edited 3/23/17 18:25pm]

.

You have made an assertion about Jesus, not humans in general. An assertion that you know is not held by the target audience of this thread. How do you know your assertion is right without playing semantic games and irrelevant links to wikipedia?

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Reply #13 posted 03/23/17 6:46pm

toejam

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IanRG said:

You have made an assertion about Jesus, not humans in general. An assertion that you know is not held by the target audience of this thread. How do you know your assertion is right without playing semantic games and irrelevant links to wikipedia?

.

I'm not playing semantic games. It's a fact that the word "know" has multiple uses. Trying to clarify this is not "playing semantic games". I'm clarifying this because I know equivocation over the word "know" happens a lot in such discussions. In the absolute philosophical sense, I don't know anything about Jesus. None of us do. We could all be wrong about everything we think about Jesus. But in the general day-to-day sense of the word, I'm confident in saying if there was a Historical Jesus (which I do suspect), that he was conceived like the rest of us. I say this with just as much confidence as I suspect you would say you know that Romulus's body was not whooshed up into to the heavens only to later to reveal himself in splendid glory to Proculus. There's nothing irrelevant about my link. This is what we know about how new humans come about.
.
Would you say you "know" Jesus was born of a virgin? Feel free to clarify the sense of the word "know" you're using...

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Reply #14 posted 03/23/17 9:11pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:

You have made an assertion about Jesus, not humans in general. An assertion that you know is not held by the target audience of this thread. How do you know your assertion is right without playing semantic games and irrelevant links to wikipedia?

.

I'm not playing semantic games. It's a fact that the word "know" has multiple uses. Trying to clarify this is not "playing semantic games". I'm clarifying this because I know equivocation over the word "know" happens a lot in such discussions. In the absolute philosophical sense, I don't know anything about Jesus. None of us do. We could all be wrong about everything we think about Jesus. But in the general day-to-day sense of the word, I'm confident in saying if there was a Historical Jesus (which I do suspect), that he was conceived like the rest of us. I say this with just as much confidence as I suspect you would say you know that Romulus's body was not whooshed up into to the heavens only to later to reveal himself in splendid glory to Proculus. There's nothing irrelevant about my link. This is what we know about how new humans come about.
.
Would you say you "know" Jesus was born of a virgin? Feel free to clarify the sense of the word "know" you're using...

.

It is a semantic game - You said "Jesus was the son of some human male and female." When pushed to explain how you know, all you give is a wishy-washy what does know mean and then well I don't know.

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Reply #15 posted 03/23/17 9:46pm

toejam

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IanRG said:

It is a semantic game - You said "Jesus was the son of some human male and female." When pushed to explain how you know, all you give is a wishy-washy what does know mean and then well I don't know.


I'm sorry you see it that way. I think what I've posted makes perfect sense and is no "game". That you perceive it as one speaks more about you, I feel.

In an absolute philosophical sense, I don't know anything about Jesus. In a day-to-day sense I know that Jesus, assuming there was a historical figure which I do, was conceived in the same way that every other human was - just like you and I in a day-to-day sense of "knowledge" know that Pilate was not a reincarnated octopus.
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Reply #16 posted 03/23/17 10:04pm

toejam

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Anyway, if you can accept my clarification here, I'd be more than happy to explain why I think we can safely say that Jesus was conceived via the union of a male and female, and not through a virgin mother... But it will have to be another day as I'm about to head out for the weekend.
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Reply #17 posted 03/23/17 10:46pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:
It is a semantic game - You said "Jesus was the son of some human male and female." When pushed to explain how you know, all you give is a wishy-washy what does know mean and then well I don't know.
I'm sorry you see it that way. I think what I've posted makes perfect sense and is no "game". That you perceive it as one speaks more about you, I feel. In an absolute philosophical sense, I don't know anything about Jesus. In a day-to-day sense I know that Jesus, assuming there was a historical figure which I do, was conceived in the same way that every other human was - just like you and I in a day-to-day sense of "knowledge" know that Pilate was not a reincarnated octopus.

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Don't be sorry. All I am pointing out is that your assertion is based on assumption and not knowledge and in the last couple of posts you have agreed with me on this point.

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Reply #18 posted 03/23/17 10:54pm

QueenofCardboa
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Parthenogenesis is a mode of asexual reproduction in which offspring are produced by females without the genetic contribution of a male.

Among all the sexual vertebrates, the only examples of true parthenogenesis, in which all-female populations reproduce without the involvement of males, are found in squamate reptiles (snakes and lizards).[1]

There are about 50 species of lizard and 1 species of snake that reproduce solely through parthenogenesis (obligate parthenogenesis).[2]

It is unknown how many sexually reproducing species are also capable of parthenogenesis in the absence of males

(facultative parthenogenesis), but recent research has revealed that this ability is widespread among squamates.



[Edited 3/23/17 23:20pm]

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Reply #19 posted 03/23/17 11:04pm

IanRG

toejam said:

Anyway, if you can accept my clarification here, I'd be more than happy to explain why I think we can safely say that Jesus was conceived via the union of a male and female, and not through a virgin mother... But it will have to be another day as I'm about to head out for the weekend.

.

I can write why you think you can safely say what Jesus' father was you can write why I think I can safely say what Jesus' father was. It does not matter how many days it is before you do this - It will still come down your beliefs being not my beliefs and vice versa.

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At this point the thread will be just another repeat of so many threads spiralling down and convincing no one. Words like Occam's razer, burden of proof will be thrown around - we have all seen it before.

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Or you can seek to think out of your shell and answer - If God is how Christian's perceive God then why is it so unlikely Jesus' Father was God?

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In return I am saying if God is not how Christians perceive God, then Jesus' father was almost certainly a man and he could have been called Pantera or ....

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Reply #20 posted 03/24/17 4:15am

toejam

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IanRG said:


I can write why you think you can safely say what Jesus' father was



I would actually be curious to hear your understanding of the reasons you think I hold that have me believing that Jesus was conceived by a human male and female. I'm curious whether the reasons you think I would put forward are actually the ones I would... Hopefully makes sense


[Edited 3/24/17 7:07am]
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Reply #21 posted 03/24/17 6:08am

EmmaMcG

toejam said:



EmmaMcG said:


I always thought that the idea of Jesus being the "son of God" was more of a metaphorical thing rather than meaning that he was actually supposed to be the son of God. Then again, I don't believe in God and I don't go to church to hear how I'm going to hell so perhaps I'm wrong. My uncle is a Catholic priest though so I'll ask him his opinion on it.

.


You will find Christians who take it literally and those who take it metaphorically. Similarly, you will find non-Christians who think the authors wanted its readers to take it literally, and non-Christians who think the authors wanted its readers to take it metaphorically lol


.


I predict your Catholic Priest uncle will either give you a confident "Yes! I believe it literally!", or give you a wishy-washy "Well, in some sense..." response. It's often hard for Catholic Priests to deny it outright.



.


[Edited 3/23/17 16:13pm]



I haven't spoken to him yet but I'm not so sure he'll be as wishy-washy as you might assume. This is a guy who believes that gay marriage should be allowed and who once told me not to take the Bible as gospel. smile
In other words, he's not a typical priest.

As for my own beliefs on the matter, I don't think these people existed BUT if they did, I think that Jesus was the son of God in the same way that every other human is supposed to be. Jesus was just his favourite, that's why he got the magic powers. smile
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Reply #22 posted 03/24/17 9:02am

2freaky4church
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Josephus said he existed.

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Reply #23 posted 03/24/17 9:44am

RodeoSchro

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I guess if you don't know, you don't know.

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Reply #24 posted 03/24/17 10:42am

riocoolnes

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IanRG said:



toejam said:


Jesus was the son of some human male and female.



.


And you know this how?


Lol what other optiond exist lol???? A fish and a turtle?
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Reply #25 posted 03/24/17 1:03pm

IanRG

riocoolnes said:

IanRG said:

.

And you know this how?

Lol what other optiond exist lol???? A fish and a turtle?

.

Seeking to make a joke like this only makes you look silly. You and every one here knows the two options being discussed.

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Reply #26 posted 03/24/17 1:17pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:

I can write why you think you can safely say what Jesus' father was

I would actually be curious to hear your understanding of the reasons you think I hold that have me believing that Jesus was conceived by a human male and female. I'm curious whether the reasons you think I would put forward are actually the ones I would... Hopefully makes sense

.

No it does not make sense but at least it is consistent. I could have written the above reply for you - it is just an attempt to keep the discussion focused on you creating uncertainty about how the beliefs were originally formed by the people you disagree with. It is a shame that you cannot get out of from behind you shield and answer the question I asked you.

[Edited 3/24/17 13:27pm]

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Reply #27 posted 03/24/17 2:45pm

Menes

2freaky4church1 said:

Josephus said he existed.

Anyone who has studied classical demography would understand why there is scant evidence to support the existence of Jesus outside of the writings of the disciples themselves. Rome had bigger fish to fry.

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Reply #28 posted 03/24/17 2:58pm

IanRG

Menes said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Josephus said he existed.

Anyone who has studied classical demography would understand why there is scant evidence to support the existence of Jesus outside of the writings of the disciples themselves. Rome had bigger fish to fry.

.

And they would also know that there is scant evidence to support the existance of so many people. In recent years they have found Pharaohs they did not know existed. The earliest known biography of Alexander the Great was written 300 years after his death. When this is compared to writings within living memory of a person who was, as you say, a very small fish in the Roman empire, then this is significant.

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Reply #29 posted 03/24/17 3:02pm

morningsong

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I take it as suspended belief. There is so much stuff we know now that people 2 thousand years ago had no clue about. I mean sharks can have asexual reproduction which has only been recently observed in these last few decades, nobody can explain how but it happens quite naturally. Granted sharks and human 2 totally different animals, very difficult to fathom something like that for an individual. Hey we crossed the line in making a baby with 3 legitemate parents so who knows what's truly possible with a little intervention.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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