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Thread started 09/17/09 4:49am

Tremolina

Geert Wilders wants to tax headscarves

Yes, it's our very own Geert Wilders at it again proving to the world that the Netherlands is really full of reasonable people who are not xenophobic or racist AT ALL.

This time Wilders wants to tax Muslimas € 1000 for wearing a headscarve.

Contradicting his former position that all headscarves should be banned, because he views headscarves as instruments of oppression that don't fit in with dutch culture, he is now proposing to make money off of it.

"If the tax is introduced we are finally going to earn some money back from the Islam" Wilders said.

According to Wilders headscarves, as well as mosques and Muslim men with beards and long dresses 'polute' the Dutch streets.

"We are completely fed up with head scarves" Wilders said.

Calling the tax a 'rag head tax', Wilders suggested that the extra tax income for the government should go to so-called 'blijf van mijn lijf huizen' (homes were abused women can flee to).

Wilders was met with ridicule and offense when he laid down his proposal in the Dutch parliament.

D66-leader Alexander Pechtold called it an "embarassing performance" and accused Wilders of xenofobic and racist speech against Muslims.

SP-leader Agnes Kant called Wilder's plan too absurd to react to. "You want a headscarve police. I think that's ridiculous." , said Kant.

Arie Slob of the ChristenUnie told Wilders that he insults people simply because of their appearance.

"You are very good at insulting women mr. Wilders", reacted Mariëtte Hamer of coalition partner PvdA.

CDA-chairman Pieter van Geel also rejected Wilder's idea. "You want to sell your principles for a 1000 euros?" he asked Wilders.

According to GroenLinks-leader Femke Halsema, Wilders apllies Iranian methods. "What you want is to introduce a vice police. Shame on you", she said.

Geert Wilder's one man party, the PVV (party for freedom) still stands strong in Dutch political polls.


link (in dutch)

http://www.nuzakelijk.nl/...sting.html

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[Edited 9/17/09 4:57am]
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Reply #1 posted 09/17/09 8:13am

razor

Tremolina said:

Yes, it's our very own Geert Wilders at it again proving to the world that the Netherlands is really full of reasonable people who are not xenophobic or racist AT ALL.

This time Wilders wants to tax Muslimas € 1000 for wearing a headscarve.

Contradicting his former position that all headscarves should be banned, because he views headscarves as instruments of oppression that don't fit in with dutch culture, he is now proposing to make money off of it.

"If the tax is introduced we are finally going to earn some money back from the Islam" Wilders said.

According to Wilders headscarves, as well as mosques and Muslim men with beards and long dresses 'polute' the Dutch streets.

"We are completely fed up with head scarves" Wilders said.

Calling the tax a 'rag head tax', Wilders suggested that the extra tax income for the government should go to so-called 'blijf van mijn lijf huizen' (homes were abused women can flee to).

Wilders was met with ridicule and offense when he laid down his proposal in the Dutch parliament.

D66-leader Alexander Pechtold called it an "embarassing performance" and accused Wilders of xenofobic and racist speech against Muslims.

SP-leader Agnes Kant called Wilder's plan too absurd to react to. "You want a headscarve police. I think that's ridiculous." , said Kant.

Arie Slob of the ChristenUnie told Wilders that he insults people simply because of their appearance.

"You are very good at insulting women mr. Wilders", reacted Mariëtte Hamer of coalition partner PvdA.

CDA-chairman Pieter van Geel also rejected Wilder's idea. "You want to sell your principles for a 1000 euros?" he asked Wilders.

According to GroenLinks-leader Femke Halsema, Wilders apllies Iranian methods. "What you want is to introduce a vice police. Shame on you", she said.

Geert Wilder's one man party, the PVV (party for freedom) still stands strong in Dutch political polls.


link (in dutch)

http://www.nuzakelijk.nl/...sting.html

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[Edited 9/17/09 4:57am]


eek I knew this guy was controversial, but I generally thought he kept his language "political" if you know what I mean. If this is true, if does indeed reveal some true colours...
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #2 posted 09/17/09 2:18pm

Tremolina

razor said:

eek I knew this guy was controversial, but I generally thought he kept his language "political" if you know what I mean. If this is true, if does indeed reveal some true colours...


Uhm it is true. And very embarrassing because he has a lot of supporters.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/n...rf_tax.php
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Reply #3 posted 09/17/09 5:21pm

KoolEaze

avatar

confused whofarted disbelief disbelief

The relationship between Holland and me is like finding out that your girl has been cheating on you....what a disappointment, what a disillusion !

I really used to love that country from the bottom of my heart and even thought about learning the language and moving there, but I better stay on the other side of the border.

Sometimes I wonder if Pim Fortyn would have made a difference and maybe would have brought some positive change to the Netherlands if he hadn´t gotten killed.
Sure, he was a rightwing politician too, but even some foreigners,including Muslims, respected and admired his attitude and his views because he was totally different in comparison to Haider, Le Pen, the BNP or Front National. Even though he was probably nothing but a provocateur, I still think that he could have brought some change and balance to this madness.
Then again,I don´t know enough about Dutch politics.

I think my last visit to Holland, very frustrating by the way, was definitely my last visit. neutral
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #4 posted 09/18/09 4:28am

Tremolina

KoolEaze,

It's not all Dutch that support Wilders. He gets support from those who listen to their "underbelly" feelings (as mordang put it) instead of facts. If his supporters would listen to facts they would realise that Wilders was part of the "political elite" for a long time and that he supported their policies - the policies he is now raging against - with passion and conviction.

The same passion and conviction he now uses to plead against. This contradiction is largely ignored by his supporters, which proves that they are not interested in facts, but that they are fearful and intolerant of others. But that's certainly not all or most Dutcfh. Unfortunately it is a large minority tho'.

Wilders is nothing but a populist looking to achieve as much political power as possible by means of injecting fear, spreading lies and pitching ethinical groups against eachother. He is an expert in polarising and stirring up shit.

This fearmonging populism directed against Islam and "the political elite" STARTED with Pim Fortuyn. he started with the attacks against the "political elite" and with the pleas that Dutch society should be protected against the march of Islam. Wilders just stepped in the void he left when he was killed.
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Reply #5 posted 09/18/09 5:04am

marxisreal

In Flanders, Belgium, official education (that's without the catholic schools) has just decided to ban the headscarf in schools. It just polarizes the situation and leads to more racism. These muslim girls should be allowed to follow a religion or to follow none at all. "Forcing" people to follow, or not to follow a religion is plain wrong.
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Reply #6 posted 09/18/09 5:07am

IrresistibleB1
tch

marxisreal said:

In Flanders, Belgium, official education (that's without the catholic schools) has just decided to ban the headscarf in schools. It just polarizes the situation and leads to more racism. These muslim girls should be allowed to follow a religion or to follow none at all. "Forcing" people to follow, or not to follow a religion is plain wrong.


nod and it might keep some girls from going to school.
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Reply #7 posted 09/18/09 7:12am

marxisreal

IrresistibleB1tch said:

marxisreal said:

In Flanders, Belgium, official education (that's without the catholic schools) has just decided to ban the headscarf in schools. It just polarizes the situation and leads to more racism. These muslim girls should be allowed to follow a religion or to follow none at all. "Forcing" people to follow, or not to follow a religion is plain wrong.


nod and it might keep some girls from going to school.


It already does. And it launched a debate about separate "muslim schools" (in Belgium there's a freedom to establish schools on the basis of religion or world view). This is going in the wrong direction. It will be the most reactionary elements in the muslim community which will run these schools, but I don't even think the majority of muslim parents will send their children to these schools.

Catholic schools have also banned the headscarf but there it isn't a general rule. Schools want to prevent being seen as "concentration schools", but it's a wider problem of the concentration of poverty in certain neighbourhoods and a failure of society to give everyone the means and chances to succeed.
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Reply #8 posted 09/18/09 7:16am

KoolEaze

avatar

Tremolina said:

KoolEaze,

It's not all Dutch that support Wilders. He gets support from those who listen to their "underbelly" feelings (as mordang put it) instead of facts. If his supporters would listen to facts they would realise that Wilders was part of the "political elite" for a long time and that he supported their policies - the policies he is now raging against - with passion and conviction.

The same passion and conviction he now uses to plead against. This contradiction is largely ignored by his supporters, which proves that they are not interested in facts, but that they are fearful and intolerant of others. But that's certainly not all or most Dutcfh. Unfortunately it is a large minority tho'.

Wilders is nothing but a populist looking to achieve as much political power as possible by means of injecting fear, spreading lies and pitching ethinical groups against eachother. He is an expert in polarising and stirring up shit.

This fearmonging populism directed against Islam and "the political elite" STARTED with Pim Fortuyn. he started with the attacks against the "political elite" and with the pleas that Dutch society should be protected against the march of Islam. Wilders just stepped in the void he left when he was killed.



Thanks for the uplifting message but I´m still disappointed.Last time I was in Holland (that´s when Ivy visited you and she missed me at the Rijksmuseum and Central Station...I kept going back and forth there for hours) I noticed a drastic change in the social atmosphere there. Yes,even during that short time.

I talked to some young people on the train on my way back to Groningen to catch my bus, and even those young students all of a sudden showed some really weird, distanced reaction after they found out that I´m actually Turkish.

I still kept the conversation going and in the end, we had some great exchange of thoughts, and you know, I can really relate to some of those people who think and feel like Mordang or those students on the train , I can understand that they probably had a lot of negative encounters with Turkish or Moroccan teenagers but I find it quite sad that they automatically pigeonheole a whole people, lump everybody in one category and don´t use their brains.

They rather argue on a gut level instead of differentiating or seeking for true communication.

Ironically, these people often rave about the USA or other countries where you have less of Muslim population but they conveniently neglect the fact that in those countries, you still have petty crimes, violent teenagers, gangs, robberies and so on, often comitted by OTHER minorities like Hispanics, Vietnamese Hmong people for instance in Mpls, or AfricanAmericans, or Russians, or Armenian gangs in Glendale, or Polish stick up kids in some parts of Germany. Funnily, it´s always the "Muslims" , or more precisely, people from the Mid East or Southeast Europe or Anatolia that get the blame these days.

Thirty years ago it was the Italians, the Greeks, the Spaniards and the Portuguese but those people received an "update" in status over the years because now white, nominally Christian people worlwide have found a new enemy to look down on. I feel like we are reviving the crusades and the Middle Ages again.And here´s me thinking that we would all progress in the new millenium,especially in progressive countries like Holland. Boy was I wrong.

And then there´s this talk in the media about the socalled "Judeo-Christian,western culture"...I call it utter bullshit. Not too long ago they were persecuting and killing Jews for centuries and decades, it was the Ottoman Turks who gave shelter to the Jews who were escaping the Inquisition in 1492, and Turkey was the first predominantly Muslim state to accept the nation of Israel, and now it´s all about this "Us Christians and Jews against those fucking Muslims" thing. The Turks saved a lot of Jews from Nazi persecution in the 1930s and 40s and gave Turkish passports to many Jews in France and Greece so they could come to Turkey but these days none of this seems to matter anymore.

It´s a vague idea of "Us" against "Them", whatever that is. And shockingly, a lot of the Turkish teenagers who don´t know better because they don´t know their history and naively judge Israel by the actions of the radicals there, a lot of teenagers of Muslim descent become susceptible to antisemitism, which is actually not part of the culture at all.

Sad and frustrating times for anybody with a half decent working brain.

There are always reasons for inacceptable behaviour, whether it´s violent African Americans in the USA or Turks in Europe. It´s political neglect that lead to this situation, not some religion and for sure not the culture or race.
But I know that you and MarxisReal know this already.

Now, far be it from me to blame those other minorities or use them as a scapegoat but, all I´m saying is, we are definitely not all the same, and we are not all fundamentalists, and even those who are devout Muslims don´t necessarily pose a serious threat, and even if so, those are issues that can be solved in a civilized manner, without resorting to demagogic, populist tripe.


I feel that we´re all going through some turbulent times and that we will either all benefit in the process or run straight into a huge disaster. Hopefully, more rational thinking heads will prevail and remain strong and not let other forces, be it rightwingers or fundamentalists, control society.

It´s ironic that it was the Dutch and the German government who let in a lot of troublemakers for whatever reason and now they´re blaming those people who have been living peacefully as law abiding citizens here for more than thirty years.
Why did they even let certain people in when they knew they´d be trouble? They granted exile to a lot of fanatics when it suited their interests.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #9 posted 09/18/09 7:18am

KoolEaze

avatar

Some of the paragraphs in my last post got mixed up a bit, hope it still makes a bit of sense.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #10 posted 09/18/09 8:35am

IrresistibleB1
tch

marxisreal said:

IrresistibleB1tch said:



nod and it might keep some girls from going to school.


It already does. And it launched a debate about separate "muslim schools" (in Belgium there's a freedom to establish schools on the basis of religion or world view). This is going in the wrong direction. It will be the most reactionary elements in the muslim community which will run these schools, but I don't even think the majority of muslim parents will send their children to these schools.

Catholic schools have also banned the headscarf but there it isn't a general rule. Schools want to prevent being seen as "concentration schools", but it's a wider problem of the concentration of poverty in certain neighbourhoods and a failure of society to give everyone the means and chances to succeed.


interesting, thanks!

oh and hi! wave
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Reply #11 posted 09/18/09 10:58am

marxisreal

IrresistibleB1tch said:

marxisreal said:



It already does. And it launched a debate about separate "muslim schools" (in Belgium there's a freedom to establish schools on the basis of religion or world view). This is going in the wrong direction. It will be the most reactionary elements in the muslim community which will run these schools, but I don't even think the majority of muslim parents will send their children to these schools.

Catholic schools have also banned the headscarf but there it isn't a general rule. Schools want to prevent being seen as "concentration schools", but it's a wider problem of the concentration of poverty in certain neighbourhoods and a failure of society to give everyone the means and chances to succeed.


interesting, thanks!

oh and hi! wave


Hi Martina! I see you still have your Marie Curie avatar. lol You really want to cure the world, eh?
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Reply #12 posted 09/18/09 1:16pm

Tremolina

It´s ironic that it was the Dutch and the German government who let in a lot of troublemakers for whatever reason and now they´re blaming those people who have been living peacefully as law abiding citizens here for more than thirty years. Why did they even let certain people in when they knew they´d be trouble? They granted exile to a lot of fanatics when it suited their interests.


We let them (the parents of the current generation experiencing many problems) in because we needed them to do the work Dutch people wouldn't do no more. In Holland we called them "guest workers" because the idea was that they would only stay temporarily to make money and then return home. But that didn't happen, and since we still wanted to use them as cheap labour forces, we let them stay and bring over their entire family.

The children now are trapped between a rock and a hard place, raised by morrocan values by parents that know very little about holland and that have mainly worked very hard and living in dutch society with different customs, looser values and many temptations.

In addition many of the young morrocan boys in the netherlands grow up being 'streetwise' and aren't stimulated much to get a good education and not get involved with crime and other bullshit. Unfortunately the dutch lower class mostly has had to deal with the consequences of this because most immigrants came to live in their neighboorhoods and took their former jobs. That, a load of ignorance and a bunch of socio-economic frustrations is fertile voter ground for politicans like Wilders and Fortuyn.

Wilders tho' also takes advantage of a clever agenda against "the political elite" of PvdA (labor), CDA (christian democrats) and VVD (liberals). Many people, not only those from the lower classes, have lost a lot of trust in the mainstream parties, especially since Fortuyn. Wilders has managed to appeal to a lot of those people too.

That's where we are now. For a part it's pretty fucked up, but for the most part it's really okay. The vast majority of immigrants and their descendants are doing fine and the vast majority of dutch are very tolerant of them. There are definitly some serious porblems in urban areas, but it's a shame that only the bad shit is always in the news and that some politicans manage to take advantage of it so much. But that's the world we live in today.
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Reply #13 posted 09/18/09 2:27pm

dothejump

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I was always very proud of 'my' tolerant Netherlands but that tolerance has almost disappeared in the last couple of years. I really hope there won't be elections soon because I'm afraid that that insane Wilders will get a lot of votes. And that will lead to a completely unlivable situation.
Formerly known as Parade @ HQ and formerly proud owner of www.paradetour.com
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Reply #14 posted 09/18/09 4:39pm

KoolEaze

avatar

Tremolina said:

It´s ironic that it was the Dutch and the German government who let in a lot of troublemakers for whatever reason and now they´re blaming those people who have been living peacefully as law abiding citizens here for more than thirty years. Why did they even let certain people in when they knew they´d be trouble? They granted exile to a lot of fanatics when it suited their interests.


We let them (the parents of the current generation experiencing many problems) in because we needed them to do the work Dutch people wouldn't do no more. In Holland we called them "guest workers" because the idea was that they would only stay temporarily to make money and then return home. But that didn't happen, and since we still wanted to use them as cheap labour forces, we let them stay and bring over their entire family.

The children now are trapped between a rock and a hard place, raised by morrocan values by parents that know very little about holland and that have mainly worked very hard and living in dutch society with different customs, looser values and many temptations.

In addition many of the young morrocan boys in the netherlands grow up being 'streetwise' and aren't stimulated much to get a good education and not get involved with crime and other bullshit. Unfortunately the dutch lower class mostly has had to deal with the consequences of this because most immigrants came to live in their neighboorhoods and took their former jobs. That, a load of ignorance and a bunch of socio-economic frustrations is fertile voter ground for politicans like Wilders and Fortuyn.

Wilders tho' also takes advantage of a clever agenda against "the political elite" of PvdA (labor), CDA (christian democrats) and VVD (liberals). Many people, not only those from the lower classes, have lost a lot of trust in the mainstream parties, especially since Fortuyn. Wilders has managed to appeal to a lot of those people too.

That's where we are now. For a part it's pretty fucked up, but for the most part it's really okay. The vast majority of immigrants and their descendants are doing fine and the vast majority of dutch are very tolerant of them. There are definitly some serious porblems in urban areas, but it's a shame that only the bad shit is always in the news and that some politicans manage to take advantage of it so much. But that's the world we live in today.



lol Oh, I know all that, those are not the ones I was referring to. I am the son of those socalled guest workers. That´s a 1970s thing and absolutely not what I was referring to. I meant it in a different way...what I was trying to say is that the Netherlands, Great Britain and especially Germany let in some people of dubious character in the past two decades who basically laid the foundation of some of todays problems , of course combined with political mistakes.
I meant people from the religously radical wings in certain countries, people like Cemalettin Kaplan who was wanted by the police in Turkey for his crimes yet was granted asylum by Germany. Or some people who sought refuge in the Netherlands for political reasons yet abused their asylum seeker status by selling heroin in order to support their guerilla war in Turkey, or that Abu Hamza madman in London who openly supported terrorism and who spread hatred and antisemitism, or some of those folks I saw at Finsbury Park in London.

All these people don´t represent me, my parents or my Turkish peers, yet we are under scrutiny because of what they do, we are the scapegoats and it is a mystery to me how those folks were granted asylum because of some liberals who thought they were doing something humanitarian.

Where I live,even the police is scared of certain families who came here about a decade ago under false claims and who were openly supported by some political groups, ranging from green to left to even right, and now they don´t know how to get rid of them and most of them are even citizens now. I fought hard for my citizenship even though I was born here yet those guys didn´t contribute shit to Germany and were granted citizenship quite easily, yet it is always my people who get blamed and scrutinized or pigeonholed by the majority.

Don´t know if I got my point across this time.That´s why I mentioned Pim Fortyn. Sure he laid the foundation for Wilders but, from the little that I read about him, I had the impression that he was more pragmatic and less islamophobic and less racist then Wilders.Maybe, just maybe, he could have started a more civilized discussion about these issues but I don´t really know because I don´t live in the Netherlands and I only followed the news about him occasionally. But I think his whole attitude was totally different from Wilders or van Gogh.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #15 posted 09/20/09 12:46am

jn2

The headscarves'tax was of course ironic.

Madam Chairman, this government, this elite does not have even the slightest will to oppose Islamization. No, it looks to it as a great enrichment of the Dutch landscape. All those snug mosques, those cute headscarves, those cozy burkas. Yes, the Netherlands really becomes more beautiful with that. Here and there from time to time some are left dead, or some are raped, and eventually our country will go bankrupt. But all that may not spoil the fun. Only a grumbler would pay attention to that. Just have patience for a little while, because we await the Islamic Utopia.
Madam Chairman, a better environment begins with yourself. Many Dutch are irritated by the pollution of public space by Islam. In other words, our streets in some places are increasingly looking like Mecca and Tehran. Scarves, hate-beards, burkas, men in long weird white frocks. Let us do something about that. Let us start to reconquer our streets, and ensure that the Netherlands will look like the Netherlands again. Those headscarves are a true sign of oppression of women, of subjugation, of conquest. It is a symbol of an ideology that is out there to colonize us. Therefore: it is time for a big spring-cleaning of our streets. If our new Dutch citizens want so badly to show their love for that seventh-century desert ideology, then they should rather comfortably do that in a Muslim country, but not here, not in our country.
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Reply #16 posted 09/20/09 6:57am

marxisreal

jn2 said:

The headscarves'tax was of course ironic.

Madam Chairman, this government, this elite does not have even the slightest will to oppose Islamization. No, it looks to it as a great enrichment of the Dutch landscape. All those snug mosques, those cute headscarves, those cozy burkas. Yes, the Netherlands really becomes more beautiful with that. Here and there from time to time some are left dead, or some are raped, and eventually our country will go bankrupt. But all that may not spoil the fun. Only a grumbler would pay attention to that. Just have patience for a little while, because we await the Islamic Utopia.
Madam Chairman, a better environment begins with yourself. Many Dutch are irritated by the pollution of public space by Islam. In other words, our streets in some places are increasingly looking like Mecca and Tehran. Scarves, hate-beards, burkas, men in long weird white frocks. Let us do something about that. Let us start to reconquer our streets, and ensure that the Netherlands will look like the Netherlands again. Those headscarves are a true sign of oppression of women, of subjugation, of conquest. It is a symbol of an ideology that is out there to colonize us. Therefore: it is time for a big spring-cleaning of our streets. If our new Dutch citizens want so badly to show their love for that seventh-century desert ideology, then they should rather comfortably do that in a Muslim country, but not here, not in our country.


What a hateful speech. Cleaning of the streets... head rags tax... reducing all problems in Dutch society to immigrants... an almost openly stated desire to deport all those muslims... throwing all muslims on the same heap as the fundamentalist extremists... It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist. And no, not in the slightest bit ironic, the head rags tax, in the context of the rest of this speech (I understand Dutch).
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Reply #17 posted 09/20/09 10:37am

jn2

marxisreal said:

It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist.
Of course these were "fascists" who slaughtered Theo van Gogh.
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Reply #18 posted 09/20/09 11:04am

marxisreal

jn2 said:

marxisreal said:

It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist.
Of course these were "fascists" who slaughtered Theo van Gogh.


I wouldn't argue with that. But does this justify vilifying a whole segment of the population?
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Reply #19 posted 09/20/09 11:49am

OnlyNDaUsa

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How very liberal of him!

Obama wants to tax sugar!

heck Obama wants to tax people for not buying something OBAMA thinks people should have? A tax for NOT spending money? A tax for not buying something you do not want?

So a tax on a scarf is not all that MORE unreasonable.
"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #20 posted 09/20/09 6:06pm

Dewrede

avatar

marxisreal said:

jn2 said:

The headscarves'tax was of course ironic.



What a hateful speech. Cleaning of the streets... head rags tax... reducing all problems in Dutch society to immigrants... an almost openly stated desire to deport all those muslims... throwing all muslims on the same heap as the fundamentalist extremists... It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist. And no, not in the slightest bit ironic, the head rags tax, in the context of the rest of this speech (I understand Dutch).



that is just bullshit
critisizing one's religion doesn't make one a racist


he's right imo
; those dumb headscarfs are a symbol of oppression of muslim women
having said that ; of course the idea to have to pay tax to wear them is ridiculous


and islam doesn't belong in Europe imo or anywhere else for that matter

it's a indoctrination of terror against 'infidels';

the prophet mohammed himselfkilled people that wouldn't convert to islam
he spread his religion of terror by the sword
and that is a FACT !
it's only natural for his followers to do the same



i get so tired of all those political correct people caught up in their dogma who label people racist when they critisize islam , it's pathetic


the fact that those who critisize islam get death threats proves them right
it's a religion of terror


and the FACT that suicide bombers are blowing themselves up with hundreds of innocent victims dying every single day in the name of allah proves them right even more

what a peaceful religion ey confused
[Edited 9/20/09 19:17pm]
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Reply #21 posted 09/20/09 6:12pm

Dewrede

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marxisreal said:

In Flanders, Belgium, official education (that's without the catholic schools) has just decided to ban the headscarf in schools. It just polarizes the situation and leads to more racism. These muslim girls should be allowed to follow a religion or to follow none at all. "Forcing" people to follow, or not to follow a religion is plain wrong.


there's alot of pressure amongst muslim girls to wear those things

some are being forced when they don't want to wear them
[Edited 9/20/09 18:13pm]
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Reply #22 posted 09/21/09 1:34am

razor

Dewrede said:

marxisreal said:



What a hateful speech. Cleaning of the streets... head rags tax... reducing all problems in Dutch society to immigrants... an almost openly stated desire to deport all those muslims... throwing all muslims on the same heap as the fundamentalist extremists... It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist. And no, not in the slightest bit ironic, the head rags tax, in the context of the rest of this speech (I understand Dutch).



that is just bullshit
critisizing one's religion doesn't make one a racist


he's right imo
; those dumb headscarfs are a symbol of oppression of muslim women
having said that ; of course the idea to have to pay tax to wear them is ridiculous


and islam doesn't belong in Europe imo or anywhere else for that matter

it's a indoctrination of terror against 'infidels';

the prophet mohammed [b]himself
killed people that wouldn't convert to islam
he spread his religion of terror by the sword
and that is a FACT !
it's only natural for his followers to do the same
[/b]
i get so tired of all those political correct people caught up in their dogma who label people racist when they critisize islam , it's pathetic


the fact that those who critisize islam get death threats proves them right
it's a religion of terror


and the FACT that suicide bombers are blowing themselves up with hundreds of innocent victims dying every single day in the name of allah proves them right even more

what a peaceful religion ey confused
[Edited 9/20/09 19:17pm]



What is the difference between that and Christianity? Does Christianity therefore not belong in Europe either?
[Edited 9/21/09 2:02am]
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #23 posted 09/21/09 2:21am

dothejump

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Dewrede said:



i get so tired of all those political correct people caught up in their dogma who label people racist when they critisize islam , it's pathetic


the fact that those who critisize islam get death threats proves them right
it's a religion of terror


and the FACT that suicide bombers are blowing themselves up with hundreds of innocent victims dying every single day in the name of allah proves them right even more



The ETA brings more terror in Europe than the islam. Should we get rid of all Spanish people too? All the muslims I know practise their religion at home and I have no problem with that. Geert Wilders is sowing hate and makes people believe that every muslim is a terrorist and nothing but trouble.
Formerly known as Parade @ HQ and formerly proud owner of www.paradetour.com
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Reply #24 posted 09/21/09 2:44am

jn2

Dewrede said:

marxisreal said:



What a hateful speech. Cleaning of the streets... head rags tax... reducing all problems in Dutch society to immigrants... an almost openly stated desire to deport all those muslims... throwing all muslims on the same heap as the fundamentalist extremists... It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist. And no, not in the slightest bit ironic, the head rags tax, in the context of the rest of this speech (I understand Dutch).



that is just bullshit
critisizing one's religion doesn't make one a racist


he's right imo
; those dumb headscarfs are a symbol of oppression of muslim women
having said that ; of course the idea to have to pay tax to wear them is ridiculous


and islam doesn't belong in Europe imo or anywhere else for that matter

it's a indoctrination of terror against 'infidels';

the prophet mohammed himselfkilled people that wouldn't convert to islam
he spread his religion of terror by the sword
and that is a FACT !
it's only natural for his followers to do the same



i get so tired of all those political correct people caught up in their dogma who label people racist when they critisize islam
, it's pathetic


the fact that those who critisize islam get death threats proves them right
it's a religion of terror

Criticism of islam has been criminalized even when you talk about intolerant, racist, hateful people who just don't want to share the values of the western societies.
*
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Reply #25 posted 09/21/09 4:11am

marxisreal

Dewrede said:

marxisreal said:



What a hateful speech. Cleaning of the streets... head rags tax... reducing all problems in Dutch society to immigrants... an almost openly stated desire to deport all those muslims... throwing all muslims on the same heap as the fundamentalist extremists... It's the same kind of hate speech as Hitler's against the Jews in the 1930s. Not that I consider Wilders a fascist, he's a right wing and racist populist. And no, not in the slightest bit ironic, the head rags tax, in the context of the rest of this speech (I understand Dutch).



that is just bullshit
critisizing one's religion doesn't make one a racist


he's right imo
; those dumb headscarfs are a symbol of oppression of muslim women
having said that ; of course the idea to have to pay tax to wear them is ridiculous


and islam doesn't belong in Europe imo or anywhere else for that matter

it's a indoctrination of terror against 'infidels';

the prophet mohammed himselfkilled people that wouldn't convert to islam
he spread his religion of terror by the sword
and that is a FACT !
it's only natural for his followers to do the same



i get so tired of all those political correct people caught up in their dogma who label people racist when they critisize islam , it's pathetic


the fact that those who critisize islam get death threats proves them right
it's a religion of terror


and the FACT that suicide bombers are blowing themselves up with hundreds of innocent victims dying every single day in the name of allah proves them right even more

what a peaceful religion ey confused
[Edited 9/20/09 19:17pm]


I think your post kind of answers itself. But nevertheless: why not make a difference between right wing "political islam", which includes Bin Laden and his ilk, and the majority of muslims who don't indulge - do I have to repeat this? - in terrorism.

If that's not a deliberately racist speech, what is? And it is because it pigeonholes ALL muslims and makes them the cause of almost all problems in Dutch society.

Btw I'm an atheist myself, like some might have noticed in other discussions. I belong to a socialist organization which has a sister organization in Pakistan, where we try to organize all the workers and oppressed, irrespective of their background or religious beliefs, against all forms oppression. Including the oppression of those who want to force women to wear a veil when they don't want to. Believe me, the fundamentalist Bin Laden types hate our organization to death for this. But that doesn't lead me to generalizations against all muslims.

It's not necessarily the religion of islam in itself, but the terrible conditions of poverty, alienation and war which provides the fundamentalists in Pakistan, the Middle East,... with a breeding ground. I'm not against critisizing islam or any other religion. But this task, imo, is subordinate to the task of providing a working class, left wing alternative to capitalism. I think atheist propaganda is a good thing, but in itself, when you don't create the conditions to empower people and change society, it is pretty useless. People will never throw of religion when so much of them keep on being oppressed, alienated, powerless and poor.
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Reply #26 posted 09/21/09 4:13am

KoolEaze

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Criticism of Islam is totally okay as far as I´m converned or as far as most Muslims are concerned but Wilders and his supporters are pigeonholing an entire group of people ( which is not even one big monolithic block of people to begin with). Most of the socalled Muslims in Europe are only nominal Muslims anyway,so what do you do with them ? Why aren´t they ever brought into consideration? Why do most rightwingers ignore the fact that fanaticism and taking the Koran too literally is frowned upon in the immigrants communities as well?

It´s not like all socalled Muslims want to fight for headscarves,and it is also not true that all Muslim women wear it because they´re oppressed. There are many who wear it because THEY want to wear it, not because their parents force them to do so. But I digress, and I don´t even consider myself an advocate of those groups of immigrants but I don´t like the direction where all this is leading to.

Criticism of Islam is perfectly justified and okay with me, but those who criticize it should criticize Judaism as well, because there are many parts in the Thora and Talmud that discriminate against non-Jews, and let´s not forget about the oh-so-peaceful Christian crusades where the Crusaders even ate human flesh.
Personally,I am against any religion that oppresses and controls people but I am also strictly against discriminating people the way Geert Wilders and his cohorts do.
Ignorance, fear and stupidity are just as dangerous for society as radical Islam.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #27 posted 09/21/09 4:23am

razor

marxisreal said:

Dewrede said:




that is just bullshit
critisizing one's religion doesn't make one a racist


he's right imo
; those dumb headscarfs are a symbol of oppression of muslim women
having said that ; of course the idea to have to pay tax to wear them is ridiculous


and islam doesn't belong in Europe imo or anywhere else for that matter

it's a indoctrination of terror against 'infidels';

the prophet mohammed himselfkilled people that wouldn't convert to islam
he spread his religion of terror by the sword
and that is a FACT !
it's only natural for his followers to do the same



i get so tired of all those political correct people caught up in their dogma who label people racist when they critisize islam , it's pathetic


the fact that those who critisize islam get death threats proves them right
it's a religion of terror


and the FACT that suicide bombers are blowing themselves up with hundreds of innocent victims dying every single day in the name of allah proves them right even more

what a peaceful religion ey confused
[Edited 9/20/09 19:17pm]


I think your post kind of answers itself. But nevertheless: why not make a difference between right wing "political islam", which includes Bin Laden and his ilk, and the majority of muslims who don't indulge - do I have to repeat this? - in terrorism.

If that's not a deliberately racist speech, what is? And it is because it pigeonholes ALL muslims and makes them the cause of almost all problems in Dutch society.

Btw I'm an atheist myself, like some might have noticed in other discussions. I belong to a socialist organization which has a sister organization in Pakistan, where we try to organize all the workers and oppressed, irrespective of their background or religious beliefs, against all forms oppression. Including the oppression of those who want to force women to wear a veil when they don't want to. Believe me, the fundamentalist Bin Laden types hate our organization to death for this. But that doesn't lead me to generalizations against all muslims.

It's not necessarily the religion of islam in itself, but the terrible conditions of poverty, alienation and war which provides the fundamentalists in Pakistan, the Middle East,... with a breeding ground. I'm not against critisizing islam or any other religion. But this task, imo, is subordinate to the task of providing a working class, left wing alternative to capitalism. I think atheist propaganda is a good thing, but in itself, when you don't create the conditions to empower people and change society, it is pretty useless. People will never throw of religion when so much of them keep on being oppressed, alienated, powerless and poor.



Yep, there's definately some truth to that (Although its also important to note that the richest country in the world is also one of the most ardently religious).

But broadly, I agree. Education, empowerment and opportunity will always reduce the need for religion and superstition. Unsurprisingly though, I disagree with your preferred solution i.e. a socialism.

Ideally though we should rally against all religions and their deleterious effects. Their absence certainly wouldn't solve all mankinds problems or lead to some sort of Utopia; far from it. But it would remove the most poisonous and effective argument that's ever been created to pursaude people into and legitimise violence and conflict.
[Edited 9/21/09 5:28am]
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #28 posted 09/21/09 5:53am

Tremolina

Dewrede said:

of course the idea to have to pay tax to wear them is ridiculous
and islam doesn't belong in Europe imo or anywhere else for that matter


So let me get this straight. taxing head scarves is ridiculous but for the rest Wilders is right and all muslims should be deported, or better yet exterminated, because "Islam doesn't belong in Europe or anywhere else" right?

(FYI, Islam has been in Europe for many hundreds of years already.)


the FACT that suicide bombers are blowing themselves up with hundreds of innocent victims dying every single day in the name of allah proves them right even more


Because all muslims blow themselves or are in support of terrorism?

-
[Edited 9/21/09 5:54am]
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Reply #29 posted 09/21/09 5:57am

Tremolina

jn2 said:

Criticism of islam has been criminalized


It is not criminalised. More fear monging with lies. There is nothing criminalised about criticising Islam.

In fact, criticising Islam happens daily on a large scale. So please stop with the emotional bullshit.

What is criminal, is calling for the deportation or even worse, extermination of an entire group of people.
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