Create new topic
Printable version (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)| Author | Message |
Public hatred of bankers and their money ultimately harms us all Are democracy and capitalism incompatible?
"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Are democracy and capitalism incompatible?
Public hatred of bankers and their booty stands in the way of the expansion needed to stop world economic collapse. Anatole Kaletsky Three weeks ago in his address to Congress, President Obama said: “In a time of crisis, we cannot afford to govern out of anger, or yield to the politics of the moment. I know how unpopular it is to be seen as helping banks when everyone is suffering from their bad decisions. But I also know that my job is to solve the problem.” What has happened - not only in America but also in Britain - to this promise of a calm, pragmatic response to the world's economic problems? This week Mr Obama expressed outrage at the $165 million bonuses paid by AIG, the stricken insurance group, to executives in its financial products division who are responsible for most of its tens of billions of dollars in losses. In Britain the row over Sir Fred Goodwin's pension continues to grow. And in both countries, hatred of bankers is making it difficult for governments to take further action to stabilise the banks and support economic growth. The behaviour of the bankers who first blew up the world financial system and then proceeded to loot it, is genuinely outrageous and deserves political retribution. But that should take the form of recovering the booty by the normal processes of law. In Britain, the best approach would probably be for the Treasury and Financial Services Authority to launch civil lawsuits against Sir Fred and other senior bankers alleging negligence, breach of fiduciary duty and violation of numerous investment regulations by publishing misleading information about the financial condition of their companies. Whether the Government would succeed in proving negligence is almost beside the point. The cost of the lawsuits alone, even if no damages were awarded, would be more than enough to ruin most bankers. And even those rich enough to bear the financial costs of defending themselves would have their personal lives destroyed by being dragged through the courts. This was the fate of the totally innocent directors of Equitable Life and of many guiltless members of Lloyd's. Faced with the threat of such legal trauma, Sir Fred and the other “guilty men” of the banking community would have overwhelming incentives to reach out-of-court settlements - voluntarily giving up all their pensions and other gains in exchange for immunity from legal action. But such legal chess games do not satisfy lynch mobs - especially in America, where public fury is turning not only against individual bankers but against the system as a whole. Even Democratic congressmen are now calling for the resignation of the Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner, who has been in office for less than two months and is the only economic official confirmed so far by the Senate - and therefore quite literally the one man able to protect the country from total economic collapse. This bloodlust raises a truly alarming question: can capitalism and democracy survive side by side? Four months after Mr Obama's election the policy paralysis in Washington continues - and the backlash against the financial policies required to avert disaster becomes more vicious by the day. This brings to mind a disconcerting historical reality airbrushed away in the simplified picture presented by textbook economics: the people who are now blamed for the Great Depression of the 1930s and Japan's lost decade - Andrew Mellon, the US Treasury Secretary in the early 1930s, and Yasushi Mieno, the governor of the Bank of Japan from 1989 to 1994 - were not stupid, ignorant or wicked. They were considered at the time the leading economists and financiers of their generation and were widely admired for their honesty and ethical standards. And they enjoyed widespread public support for their puritanical views about the virtues of saving, the dangers of creating future booms and the necessity of punishing and “purging” imprudent and unethical boom-time behaviour. The confusion of moralism and economics led to disaster, as even schoolchildren are now taught. But many people also understood this in the 1930s. John Maynard Keynes campaigned for budgetary flexibility and abandonment of the gold standard for at least a decade before publishing his General Theory in 1936. And he was a genius of rhetoric as well as of economics. He could argue far more eloquently for expansionary policies than any of his latter-day disciples, from Mervyn King and Ben Bernanke down to humble journalistic scribblers such as myself. He could explain his ideas with equal brilliance in the abstractions of Treasury mandarins or the straightforward language of common people: “Housewives of England, for every shilling you save, you put a man out of work for a day.” But Keynes's arguments were ignored by democratic governments the world over. Gordon Brown describes a document in the Treasury archives in which Keynes's proposals for saving Britain from depression were dismissed by the Permanent Secretary with three scribbled words: “Inflation, Extravagance, Bankruptcy.” Most people in the 1930s agreed with the Treasury that Keynes was irresponsible and deluded. And that is what many believe today - that a debt crisis cannot be cured by borrowing; that saving is virtuous while spending is wasteful; that printing money creates inflation and that the best response to recession is to fire government bureaucrats. If these beliefs become conventional wisdom among voters, then coping with the economic crisis will become as difficult as it was in the 1930s - at least for democracies. And here we come to the real horror. In the 1930s only one country put expansionary policies fully into practice. Hitler's Germany, guided by the explicitly Keynesian economic thinking of its Finance Minister, Hjelmar Schacht, rapidly restored full employment by building the autobahns, even before it turned to rearmament. The US and Britain, by contrast, never applied expansionary policies even in Roosevelt's New Deal. It took Hitler's war to create the consensus required for the bold fiscal policies that pulled the democratic countries out of depression. Now consider this: is it coincidence that China is only leading economy where growth seems assured and there is no doubt about the solidity of the banking system? So is democracy incompatible with bold economic expansion? Obviously, I hope this is not true - and I am encouraged that for 250 years everyone who has bet against American democracy and capitalism has lost. But what if President Obama proves unable to unify America around an effective policy to pull itself out of recession? I can think of only one answer: we had better start learning Chinese. intelligence is another direct link to stupidity cheers! ~svn seven | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
|
Public and private hatred potentially harms us all |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Mach said: Public and private hatred potentially harms us all
Indeed. In this instance, people need to drop the anger/envy/revenge trip and get behind the bailouts and stimulus packages. Politicians are opportunists. If they know the public mood is anti-bank/anti-capitalism/string up the bankers, they will spend their time on useless PR stunts like focusing on bonuses etc. We need them to be concentrating on sorting out our economies, so its time for the vitriol to cease. [Edited 3/20/09 6:14am] "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Mach said: Public and private hatred potentially harms us all
Indeed. In this instance, people need to drop the anger/envy/revenge trip and get behind the bailouts and stimulus packages. Politicians are oppotunists. If they know the public mood in anti-bank/anti-capilalism/string up the bankers, they will spend their time on useless PR stunts like focusing on bonuses etc. We need them to be concentrating on sorting out our economies, so its time for the vitriol to cease. God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!! | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Mach said: Public and private hatred potentially harms us all
Indeed. In this instance, people need to drop the anger/envy/revenge trip and get behind the bailouts and stimulus packages. Politicians are oppotunists. If they know the public mood in anti-bank/anti-capilalism/string up the bankers, they will spend their time on useless PR stunts like focusing on bonuses etc. We need them to be concentrating on sorting out our economies, so its time for the vitriol to cease. useless pr stunts like going on talkshows and continuing townhall meetings when probably being president is more important cheers! ~svn seven | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Vendetta1 said: razor said: Indeed. In this instance, people need to drop the anger/envy/revenge trip and get behind the bailouts and stimulus packages. Politicians are oppotunists. If they know the public mood in anti-bank/anti-capilalism/string up the bankers, they will spend their time on useless PR stunts like focusing on bonuses etc. We need them to be concentrating on sorting out our economies, so its time for the vitriol to cease. That is of course your choice. But you should be aware of the consequences of that. If you incentivise the government to share the publics unprofessional, subjective and emotive concerns in this regard, you will get a government that is unproessional, subjective and emotive. And that does not lead to good policy or sensible decisions. [Edited 3/20/09 3:33am] "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Vendetta1 said: Oh pulease. Stop my right to protest? Get behind the stimulus? Fuck that. Not going to happen.
That is of course your choice. But you should be aware of the consequences of that. If you incentivise the government to share the publics unprofessional, subjective and emotive concerns in this regard, you will get a government that is unproessional, subjective and emotive. And that does not lead to good policy or sensible decisions. [Edited 3/20/09 3:33am] Of course, I'm a Liberal! I'm an American, damn it!
This country was founded on the premise of Liberty and Justice for ALL...remember? My wallet is STILL on hiatus! ![]() | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
HatrinaHaterwitz said: razor said: That is of course your choice. But you should be aware of the consequences of that. If you incentivise the government to share the publics unprofessional, subjective and emotive concerns in this regard, you will get a government that is unproessional, subjective and emotive. And that does not lead to good policy or sensible decisions. [Edited 3/20/09 3:33am] The corporate lobbyists of course. Hence the reason why I would prefer to see public funding of political parties. The difference there was that those people were acting out of educated self-interest. In this instance the naive public is inducing self-harm. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: HatrinaHaterwitz said: The corporate lobbyists of course. Hence the reason why I would prefer to see public funding of political parties. The difference there was that those people were acting out of educated self-interest. In this instance the naive public is inducing self-harm. Election 2008! The public funded President Barack Obama! Yes, corporate lobbyist got in where they could get in, that's the nature of the beast BUT the MAJORITY was funded by the public! Which is why the President has something to say...he uses any means necessary and at his disposal to speak to us! Of course, I'm a Liberal! I'm an American, damn it!
This country was founded on the premise of Liberty and Justice for ALL...remember? My wallet is STILL on hiatus! ![]() | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
HatrinaHaterwitz said: razor said: The corporate lobbyists of course. Hence the reason why I would prefer to see public funding of political parties. The difference there was that those people were acting out of educated self-interest. In this instance the naive public is inducing self-harm. Election 2008! The public funded President Barack Obama! Yes, corporate lobbyist got in where they could get in, that's the nature of the beast BUT the MAJORITY was funded by the public! Which is why the President has something to say...he uses any means necessary and at his disposal to speak to us! Yes, I'm aware of that, and a very healthy thing it was too. Corporate funding should be banned altogether in my view. However, back to the point. This vitriol has to stop if we are going to get out of this intact. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: HatrinaHaterwitz said: Election 2008! The public funded President Barack Obama! Yes, corporate lobbyist got in where they could get in, that's the nature of the beast BUT the MAJORITY was funded by the public! Which is why the President has something to say...he uses any means necessary and at his disposal to speak to us! Yes, I'm aware of that, and a very healthy thing it was too. Corporate funding should be banned altogether in my view. However, back to the point. This vitriol has to stop if we are going to get out of this intact. Vitriol towards "bankers and their booty"? Those whose corporate funds "should be banned altogether" in your view? Of course, I'm a Liberal! I'm an American, damn it!
This country was founded on the premise of Liberty and Justice for ALL...remember? My wallet is STILL on hiatus! ![]() | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
HatrinaHaterwitz said: razor said: Yes, I'm aware of that, and a very healthy thing it was too. Corporate funding should be banned altogether in my view. However, back to the point. This vitriol has to stop if we are going to get out of this intact. Vitriol towards "bankers and their booty"? Those whose corporate funds "should be banned altogether" in your view? Corporate funding of politicians campaigns. A seperate issue. I refer you to the article for the vitriol I am talking about. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: HatrinaHaterwitz said: Vitriol towards "bankers and their booty"? Those whose corporate funds "should be banned altogether" in your view? Corporate funding of politicians campaigns. A seperate issue. I refer you to the article for the vitriol I am talking about. I went there and in all honesty, it is the same issue! If it weren't for the corporate funding of political campaigns, we would not have had all the deregulation that has transpired that has led us to the situation we are in, where we are being advised that the only answer if the current President (who was not wholly nor in the majority, funded by corporate fund) is "unable to unify America around an effective policy to pull itself out of recession" is to learn to speak Chinese! [Edited 3/20/09 10:08am] Of course, I'm a Liberal! I'm an American, damn it!
This country was founded on the premise of Liberty and Justice for ALL...remember? My wallet is STILL on hiatus! ![]() | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Vendetta1 said: Oh pulease. Stop my right to protest? Get behind the stimulus? Fuck that. Not going to happen.
That is of course your choice. But you should be aware of the consequences of that. If you incentivise the government to share the publics unprofessional, subjective and emotive concerns in this regard, you will get a government that is unproessional, subjective and emotive. And that does not lead to good policy or sensible decisions. [Edited 3/20/09 3:33am] So what you're saying is that while this system throws millions out of work, has seriously mislead people by suggesting housing prices would "never fall", and poverty is on the rise,... it's not alright to hold the ones who got us in this mess responsable? Isn't the anger understandable and justified? Well, hopefully these sentiments are used in a positive way: to change society. | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
marxisreal said: razor said: That is of course your choice. But you should be aware of the consequences of that. If you incentivise the government to share the publics unprofessional, subjective and emotive concerns in this regard, you will get a government that is unproessional, subjective and emotive. And that does not lead to good policy or sensible decisions. [Edited 3/20/09 3:33am] So what you're saying is that while this system throws millions out of work, has seriously mislead people by suggesting housing prices would "never fall", and poverty is on the rise,... it's not alright to hold the ones who got us in this mess responsable? Isn't the anger understandable and justified? Well, hopefully these sentiments are used in a positive way: to change society. People misled themselves as much as they were misled. The anger may well be understandable. But it is pointless and indeed counter-productive. The people involved are being held accountable and will continue to be so. How many of the CEOs, senior managers etc responsible for these losses do you think are still in their jobs? Or will be able to replicate their past earnings in the future? If we do not support the banking system and stimulate the economy through agressive state support, we risk falling into a depression that will make out current situation look like a birthday party. If you are concerned about increasing poverty than you ned to be telling your politicians that although you are angry and frustrated, you understand that no matter how galling you may find it, you support their action to prop-up the banks and wnat them to focus on job creation and rather than petty squabbles about past bonuses etc. Its time to stop, or at least put aside, the pointless anger, and focus on solutions. [Edited 3/20/09 10:11am] "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: marxisreal said: So what you're saying is that while this system throws millions out of work, has seriously mislead people by suggesting housing prices would "never fall", and poverty is on the rise,... it's not alright to hold the ones who got us in this mess responsable? Isn't the anger understandable and justified? Well, hopefully these sentiments are used in a positive way: to change society. People misled themselves as much as they were misled. The anger may well be understandable. But it is pointless and indeed counter-productive. The people involved are being held accountable and will continue to be so. How many of the CEOs, senior managers etc responsible for these losses do you think are still in their jobs? Or will be able to replicate their past earnings in the future? If we do not support the banking system and stimulate the economy through agressive state support, we risk falling into a depression that will make out current situation look like a birthday party. Its time to stop, or at least put aside, the pointless anger, and focus on solutions. While I do agree that it is time to put aside the pointless anger and focus on solutions, I am all for ACCOUNTABILITY! I want to KNOW who is RESPONSIBLE for this mess! Yes, many are still in their jobs and I have a BIG, HUGE, MAJOR problem with that! Shedding light on who and what the problems are...is the only way to ensure...the mistakes of the past...don't happen now nor in the future! Of course, I'm a Liberal! I'm an American, damn it!
This country was founded on the premise of Liberty and Justice for ALL...remember? My wallet is STILL on hiatus! ![]() | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
HatrinaHaterwitz said: razor said: People misled themselves as much as they were misled. The anger may well be understandable. But it is pointless and indeed counter-productive. The people involved are being held accountable and will continue to be so. How many of the CEOs, senior managers etc responsible for these losses do you think are still in their jobs? Or will be able to replicate their past earnings in the future? If we do not support the banking system and stimulate the economy through agressive state support, we risk falling into a depression that will make out current situation look like a birthday party. Its time to stop, or at least put aside, the pointless anger, and focus on solutions. While I do agree that it is time to put aside the pointless anger and focus on solutions, I am all for ACCOUNTABILITY! I want to KNOW who is RESPONSIBLE for this mess! Yes, many are still in their jobs and I have a BIG, HUGE, MAJOR problem with that! Shedding light on who and what the problems are...is the only way to ensure...the mistakes of the past...don't happen now nor in the future! Who gains from the acceptance of this bullshit? Candy is horrible - no more for me thanks! | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
K as I look outside my window I don't see any institutions on fire or rioting in the streets. I see people going on their daily lives just like the government and the financial industry expects them to. So this article seems to be total hogwash.
"...I will go to the animal shelter and get you a kitty cat. I will let you fall in love...with that kitty cat. And then on some dark, cold night I will steal away into your home...and punch you in the face!" | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Vendetta1 said: Oh pulease. Stop my right to protest? Get behind the stimulus? Fuck that. Not going to happen.
That is of course your choice. But you should be aware of the consequences of that. If you incentivise the government to share the publics unprofessional, subjective and emotive concerns in this regard, you will get a government that is unproessional, subjective and emotive. And that does not lead to good policy or sensible decisions. [Edited 3/20/09 3:33am] God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!! | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: marxisreal said: So what you're saying is that while this system throws millions out of work, has seriously mislead people by suggesting housing prices would "never fall", and poverty is on the rise,... it's not alright to hold the ones who got us in this mess responsable? Isn't the anger understandable and justified? Well, hopefully these sentiments are used in a positive way: to change society. People misled themselves as much as they were misled. The anger may well be understandable. But it is pointless and indeed counter-productive. The people involved are being held accountable and will continue to be so. How many of the CEOs, senior managers etc responsible for these losses do you think are still in their jobs? Or will be able to replicate their past earnings in the future? If we do not support the banking system and stimulate the economy through agressive state support, we risk falling into a depression that will make out current situation look like a birthday party. If you are concerned about increasing poverty than you ned to be telling your politicians that although you are angry and frustrated, you understand that no matter how galling you may find it, you support their action to prop-up the banks and wnat them to focus on job creation and rather than petty squabbles about past bonuses etc. Its time to stop, or at least put aside, the pointless anger, and focus on solutions. [Edited 3/20/09 10:11am] I do not support their action to prop up banks, God DAMN there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers walking around! - George Carlin
Stalkerwomen of the world unite in delusion!!!!! | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Warning over bonus crackdown
"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
lazycrockett said: K as I look outside my window I don't see any institutions on fire or rioting in the streets. I see people going on their daily lives just like the government and the financial industry expects them to. So this article seems to be total hogwash.
Who said anything about public rioting? The point is the publics satnce agianst tghese measures is potentially hugely counter-productive and will lead us towards depression, (and everything that brings, which may well include social unrest), not away from it. That is the potential cost of "getting even" with the bankers. Time to rise above.. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
razor said: Warning over bonus crackdown
By Aline van Duyn and Julie MacIntosh in New York Published: March 22 2009 18:24 | Last updated: March 22 2009 23:18 Plans by US lawmakers to curtail big Wall Street bonuses may have adverse effects on government rescue plans aimed at restarting consumer lending and resolving the toxic asset overhang. Plans to pay AIG traders $165m in bonuses after the company received $160bn of taxpayer funds sparked outrage In particular, private investors such as hedge funds and private equity groups may be less likely to take part amid concerns of government scrutiny and fears that profits may be clawed back in the future. Fed officials believe there is already evidence of this in the lacklustre initial take-up of loans offered for the term asset-backed securities loan facility (Talf). The first $200bn leg of the Talf, aimed at restarting the securitised debt markets, began last week and details are expected on Monday on a “public/private partnership” aimed at getting billions of dollars of toxic assets off banks’ books. “I just hope this divide between Washington and the investment community doesn’t actually injure the initiatives we need to succeed,” said Roger Altman, the head of Evercore Partners and a former deputy US Treasury secretary. “We need the investment community to participate in the Talf and the public/private partnership, and it would be a shame if they were not willing to step in.” Already some investors have been concerned that borrowing money from the Federal Reserve to buy securities backed by car loans and credit cards might open them up to scrutiny from regulators. If nothing else, this could result in time-consuming disclosure requirements. “What we hear time and time again from the investors’ standpoint, and even the issuers’ standpoint, is a reluctance to get involved with a government programme, for fear of retribution . . . and that there’s some sort of clawback [on profits],” said Greg Peters, head of fixed income and economics research at Morgan Stanley. “There’s such concern about over-reaching government involvement that it’s actually hurting these programmes, ultimately,” he said. The Fed said it had lent $4.7bn to investors to buy securities. By borrowing money to buy triple A rated securities backed by car loans, the returns available can reach 20 per cent. Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary, has said that the Talf programme could be expanded to $1,000bn, making it a vital part of an effort to make credit available to consumers and businesses after the collapse of the securitisation markets, for years a key source of financing. Mr Geithner is also working on a plan for private investors to buy toxic assets that are clogging up banks’ balance sheets and that could include elements used in the Talf, such as lending investors money to pump up potential returns. There has been public outrage over plans to pay AIG derivatives traders $165m in bonuses after the company received $160bn of taxpayer funds to stay afloat. To recoup the funds, the House of Representatives approved a bill last week that would impose a 90 per cent tax on bonuses to employees of bailed-out institutions. Michael Widner, banking analyst at Stifel Nicolaus, said the bonus bills defeated the object of many of the government programmes to rebuild the banking sector – such as capital injections from the troubled asset relief programme (Tarp). “In our view the government has just given all of those banks strong incentives to get out from under Tarp as soon as possible. That means the banks will likely do what they wanted to do before Tarp came along.” This would mean less lending, fewer modifications to mortgage loans, more cost cutting, more capital building and more job cuts, he said. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0...fd2ac.html the damage has been done. nothing to see here. move along. move along cheers! ~svn seven | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
7e7e7 said: razor said: Warning over bonus crackdown
By Aline van Duyn and Julie MacIntosh in New York Published: March 22 2009 18:24 | Last updated: March 22 2009 23:18 Plans by US lawmakers to curtail big Wall Street bonuses may have adverse effects on government rescue plans aimed at restarting consumer lending and resolving the toxic asset overhang. Plans to pay AIG traders $165m in bonuses after the company received $160bn of taxpayer funds sparked outrage In particular, private investors such as hedge funds and private equity groups may be less likely to take part amid concerns of government scrutiny and fears that profits may be clawed back in the future. Fed officials believe there is already evidence of this in the lacklustre initial take-up of loans offered for the term asset-backed securities loan facility (Talf). The first $200bn leg of the Talf, aimed at restarting the securitised debt markets, began last week and details are expected on Monday on a “public/private partnership” aimed at getting billions of dollars of toxic assets off banks’ books. “I just hope this divide between Washington and the investment community doesn’t actually injure the initiatives we need to succeed,” said Roger Altman, the head of Evercore Partners and a former deputy US Treasury secretary. “We need the investment community to participate in the Talf and the public/private partnership, and it would be a shame if they were not willing to step in.” Already some investors have been concerned that borrowing money from the Federal Reserve to buy securities backed by car loans and credit cards might open them up to scrutiny from regulators. If nothing else, this could result in time-consuming disclosure requirements. “What we hear time and time again from the investors’ standpoint, and even the issuers’ standpoint, is a reluctance to get involved with a government programme, for fear of retribution . . . and that there’s some sort of clawback [on profits],” said Greg Peters, head of fixed income and economics research at Morgan Stanley. “There’s such concern about over-reaching government involvement that it’s actually hurting these programmes, ultimately,” he said. The Fed said it had lent $4.7bn to investors to buy securities. By borrowing money to buy triple A rated securities backed by car loans, the returns available can reach 20 per cent. Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary, has said that the Talf programme could be expanded to $1,000bn, making it a vital part of an effort to make credit available to consumers and businesses after the collapse of the securitisation markets, for years a key source of financing. Mr Geithner is also working on a plan for private investors to buy toxic assets that are clogging up banks’ balance sheets and that could include elements used in the Talf, such as lending investors money to pump up potential returns. There has been public outrage over plans to pay AIG derivatives traders $165m in bonuses after the company received $160bn of taxpayer funds to stay afloat. To recoup the funds, the House of Representatives approved a bill last week that would impose a 90 per cent tax on bonuses to employees of bailed-out institutions. Michael Widner, banking analyst at Stifel Nicolaus, said the bonus bills defeated the object of many of the government programmes to rebuild the banking sector – such as capital injections from the troubled asset relief programme (Tarp). “In our view the government has just given all of those banks strong incentives to get out from under Tarp as soon as possible. That means the banks will likely do what they wanted to do before Tarp came along.” This would mean less lending, fewer modifications to mortgage loans, more cost cutting, more capital building and more job cuts, he said. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0...fd2ac.html the damage has been done. nothing to see here. move along. move along cheers! ~svn seven No, not too late. There's still time for the public to see sense and get behind supporting the financial industry. "It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"
Abraham Lincoln | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Well that won't stop me. | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
If u're gonna hate on any1, let it be the Federal Reserve who helped cause this mess and Congress who took the taxpayer money and gave it to the banks, tho most of us did not want them too.
"It is the system of nationalist ndividualism that has to go...Countless people...will hate the new world order....and will die protesting against it." HG Wells | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
gawd razor, there is a big difference between bailing out a failing company and a failing company still paying bonuses after being bailed out, but please let us all known how scared you are of losing your own bonuses. Cuomo says AIG execs agree to return $50M bonuses
… NEW YORK – New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said Monday that 15 employees who received some of the largest bonuses from American International Group Inc. have agreed to return the more than $30 million worth of payments in full. In total, AIG employees have agreed to return about $50 million of the $165 million in bonuses awarded earlier this month by the troubled insurer, Cuomo's office said. Cuomo said he still hopes that more AIG employees will return their bonuses. At most, Cuomo said his office could hope to recoup $80 million of the bonuses — roughly the amount paid out to American employees. "I applaud the employees who are returning the bonuses," Cuomo said during a conference call with reporters. "I think they are being responsive to the American people." Cuomo said 9 of the 10 people receiving the largest awards have agreed to return their bonus. Additionally, 15 of the top 20 bonus recipients have consented to returning their money. Cuomo said some have refused to return the money, while others are still considering it. "We are deeply gratified that a vast majority of Financial Products' senior leadership have expressed a willingness to forsake their recent retention payments," wrote spokeswoman Christina Pretto in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press. She added that the company is continuing to review the responses of the other employees. AIG has come under heavy criticism because the bonuses were given to employees after the company received $170 billion in government bailout money. AIG Chief Executive Edward Liddy told Congress last week that some of the employees were willing to give the money back. But Liddy has expressed concern that the company may not be able to attract and retain talented employees if they believe their compensation is subject to adjustment by the Treasury. Pretto said Monday that a "handful" of senior-level executives have resigned from the financial products division, and that there will likely be more resignations to come. "We do believe that at this point it's all manageable," she said. Cuomo said he doesn't plan to release the names of the employees who have agreed to return the bonuses, and said there is no implied threat that if an employee doesn't consent to returning the bonus that their name will be released. Cuomo had sought the names of the employees who received bonuses from Liddy through a subpoena. He said his office is continuing to assess the security of the employees. About 400 employees and future employees in AIG's financial products division received bonuses. Documents provided by AIG to the Treasury Department said the awards ranged from $1,000 to nearly $6.5 million. Seven employees were to receive more than $3 million. Last week Cuomo said AIG paid bonuses of $1 million or more to 73 employees, including 11 who no longer work there. Separately, Connecticut's consumer protection division has subpoenaed AIG, demanding that the contracts and names of employees who received the bonuses be provided by March 27. Gov. M. Jodi Rell has said she wants the division to determine whether the bonuses can be voided under the Connecticut Unfair Trade Practices Act. AIG's financial products division is headquartered in Wilton, Conn. Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal says his office also demanded the bonus recipients' names and the amounts. Last week, the House passed a plan to slap a punitive, 90 percent tax on bonuses paid to AIG employees whose family income surpasses $250,000. Not all of the AIG employees earned more than the income threshold specified by the House bill. But President Obama has signaled opposition to the House's tax bill on constitutional grounds. The Senate is soon expected to take up its own plan on the tax. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/aig_bonuses | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Vendetta1 said: razor said: Indeed. In this instance, people need to drop the anger/envy/revenge trip and get behind the bailouts and stimulus packages. Politicians are oppotunists. If they know the public mood in anti-bank/anti-capilalism/string up the bankers, they will spend their time on useless PR stunts like focusing on bonuses etc. We need them to be concentrating on sorting out our economies, so its time for the vitriol to cease. Re-elect your Congresspeople! | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
7e7e7 said: razor said: Indeed. In this instance, people need to drop the anger/envy/revenge trip and get behind the bailouts and stimulus packages. Politicians are oppotunists. If they know the public mood in anti-bank/anti-capilalism/string up the bankers, they will spend their time on useless PR stunts like focusing on bonuses etc. We need them to be concentrating on sorting out our economies, so its time for the vitriol to cease. useless pr stunts like going on talkshows and continuing townhall meetings when probably being president is more important cheers! ~svn seven So as President, he should be ignoring his constituents? | |
- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Create new topic
Printable version (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)