independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Mon 23rd Nov 2009 1:18pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > Doc who linked MMR and autism cooked the data
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 3 123>
  Create new topic   Printable version   (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
AuthorMessage
Thread started 02/08/09 5:46pm

Genesia

avatar

Doc who linked MMR and autism cooked the data

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism
Brian Deer

The doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition.

The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab. The team also claimed to have discovered a new inflammatory bowel disease underlying the children’s conditions.

However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the children’s ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated. Hospital pathologists, looking for inflammatory bowel disease, reported in the majority of cases that the gut was normal. This was then reviewed and the Lancet paper showed them as abnormal.

Despite involving just a dozen children, the 1998 paper’s impact was extraordinary. After its publication, rates of inoculation fell from 92% to below 80%. Populations acquire “herd immunity” from measles when more than 95% of people have been vaccinated.

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

With two professors, John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch, Wakefield is defending himself against allegations of serious professional misconduct brought by the GMC. The charges relate to ethical aspects of the project, not its findings. All three men deny any misconduct.

Through his lawyers, Wakefield this weekend denied the issues raised by our investigation, but declined to comment further.

http://www.timesonline.co...683671.ece

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 02/08/09 9:47pm

lilgish

avatar

Genesia said:



Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.


falloff Oh they want show numbers do they, funny they don't want to show the rise of autism of over the last 20 years just about the same time themarasol is used, yet they want to link the rise of measles to this guys alleged false research.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 02/09/09 1:31am

wildgoldenhone
y

avatar

lilgish said:

Genesia said:



Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.


falloff Oh they want show numbers do they, funny they don't want to show the rise of autism of over the last 20 years just about the same time themarasol is used, yet they want to link the rise of measles to this guys alleged false research.

lol

heart
4EVER
~heartheart~
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 02/09/09 1:39am

razor

lilgish said:

Genesia said:



Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.


falloff Oh they want show numbers do they, funny they don't want to show the rise of autism of over the last 20 years just about the same time themarasol is used, yet they want to link the rise of measles to this guys alleged false research.


Well, I can't comment on your first point, but on the second, it is most definately the case in the UK that vaccinations have fallen dramatically since this guys report, and measles cases have risen as a direct result. Plus, this research is not "allegedly" false, it has been discredited many times over.

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 02/09/09 7:33am

Genesia

avatar

lilgish said:

Genesia said:



Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.


falloff Oh they want show numbers do they, funny they don't want to show the rise of autism of over the last 20 years just about the same time themarasol is used, yet they want to link the rise of measles to this guys alleged false research.


You need to learn a little something about cause and effect. There has been no proven link between the MMR and autism.

On the other hand, it's fairly easy to correlate the rise in measles to this moron. All you have to do is ask the parents of children who weren't immunized why they didn't have their kids immunized - and record what they say.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 02/10/09 2:20am

meow85

avatar

Genesia said:

lilgish said:



falloff Oh they want show numbers do they, funny they don't want to show the rise of autism of over the last 20 years just about the same time themarasol is used, yet they want to link the rise of measles to this guys alleged false research.


You need to learn a little something about cause and effect. There has been no proven link between the MMR and autism.

On the other hand, it's fairly easy to correlate the rise in measles to this moron. All you have to do is ask the parents of children who weren't immunized why they didn't have their kids immunized - and record what they say.


Autism rates have risen during the past 20 years, so has the usage of computer-generated special effects in movies. Therefore, obviously Toy Story is to blame for autism. nod

Seriously, one of the first things that should always be kept in mind when looking at correlating data is that correlation is not necessarily causation. Only when all other possibilities have been removed can you tentatively say there's a link.

While it's certainly possible that certain vaccinations have adverse side effects, possibly even links to developmental and behavioural challenges like autism, it's a mistake to assume there is an obvious and direct link without empirical proof.

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 02/10/09 5:29am

razor

The preposterous prejudice of the anti-MMR lobby

The campaigners were always irrational. Yet the paranoia persists and children's lives are more at risk than ever. David Aaronovitch

Last week there was a bust-up in blogland. I'll explain later why it matters, but for now I'll just give you the bones of it. On one side was the author of the Bad Science blog, Ben Goldacre, who is an invaluable persecutor of the anti-scientific and wilfully inexpert.

On the other side was the warm, friendly broadcaster, Jeni Barnett, whose most substantial incarnation currently takes place on afternoons on LBC, a London local radio station, where she hosts a phone-in.

Goldacre was so annoyed about the January 7 edition of Barnett's show, dealing, among other things, with MMR and vaccination, that he posted the whole of it as a clip on his own website, where it acted as a sort of audio chamber of horrors to appal his readers. A few days later the lawyers for LBC contacted Goldacre and told him that he was infringing their copyright and must remove the clip forthwith, or else.

Goldacre was now anger squared. “This is not about LBC or Jeni Barnett,” he wrote. “This is about one perfect, instructive, illustrative example of a whole genre of irresponsible journalism that drove the media's anti-vaccine campaign for ten solid years, with serious consequences for public health.”

Goldacre's accusation is important. Last week ended with new figures for measles cases in the United Kingdom, showing that over the past decade we have managed the interesting - and almost unprecedented - trick of reintroducing into this country a disease that had more or less disappeared. A few children will have died as a result and some others will suffer serious long-term health problems. These figures correlate to the drop in parents giving their children the MMR vaccination. And that drop, more controversially, may be seen as the consequence of a panic about MMR that began around 2001, peaked in 2002-03, and still - even after the discrediting of the claims about the supposed link between MMR and autism- affects vaccination rates today.

Unable to listen to the withdrawn audio clips, I settled for some of the transcripts of Barnett's phone-in as posted on various websites. The host had begun telling listeners: “Always at the back of it [vaccination] in my head is ‘hold on a minute, there's a drug company that's making lots of money out of it'.” She reminded listeners (in case they had overlooked it) that “if, as a human being you decide you do not want to give your child a vaccination, you should, in a democracy, have that right to say ‘no'.”

Of course they do have that right, which is why we're suffering measles outbreaks now. But it was more than that for Barnett, concerned as she was to bolster the position of those brave parents who refused to vaccinate. “It's a lonely decision, if you're not part of the herd, if you're not mooing with the other cows or baaing with the other sheep...” And so it went on.

The third element to today's argument is provided by a spread in The Sunday Times last weekend, providing new evidence about how the original scare story over MMR was created. It claimed that several of the 12 children who were the subjects of Dr Andrew Wakefield's original research paper in 1998 - the one on which virtually the entire MMR scare was founded - either had symptoms that predated their vaccination, or that developed several months afterwards. It also reminded readers that before the examination of any of these children Wakefield was already employed by a lawyer for the anti-vaccination pressure group, Jabs, to establish a case against the manufacturers of vaccines. One month before the first child in the study arrived at Wakefield's hospital, Wakefield had already filed a confidential document stating that the object of his research was to discover evidence “acceptable in a court of law” of a link between MMR vaccines and “certain conditions” reported by families seeking compensation.

And sure enough Wakefield did “discover” a link (though not one ever “acceptable in a court of law”). That research was never replicated by any other study and no correlation has ever been found between the incidence of autism and the use of MMR, despite Wakefield's constant and confident assertions that such definitive evidence was imminent.

But, oh Lord, who'd have believed it? It was the way in which Wakefield's lone thesis was reported, dramatised and discussed that created the MMR scare and, therefore, the current measles outbreaks.

Last week, justifying herself on her blog, Barnett invoked the spirit of the insurgent ignoramus. Yes, she said, she should have been ready with facts and figures on MMR. “As a responsible broadcaster I should have been better prepared; as a parent, however, I can fight my corner.” Then she added: “I don't know everything that goes into cigarettes but I do know they are harmful.”

But how did Barnett “know” they were harmful? Wasn't it down to the huge body of evidence showing the correlation between lung cancer and smoking? And didn't she recall the early days of that discussion, when anti-herd people would pause before lighting up and tell of elderly relatives who'd smoked all their lives without coming to harm? The shamefulness of much of the reporting of MMR by some journalists is the subject of much longer studies than I have space for.

What I find just as interesting is the psychology. And here's my fourth element. Last week a relative became involved in a multi-person e-mail exchange concerning vaccination against the virus that causes cervical cancer. The first query had hardly been lodged before one correspondent - a highly educated and intelligent woman - asserted that “girls have died in the US” from the vaccination, and implying that profit-seeking drug companies (with the connivance of governments, presumably) were prepared to kill our kids in order to make money.

This reply, though intended for limited circulation, was so categorical yet so paranoid, that it was easy to imagine a fresh scare, perhaps arriving later in the year, concerning these new vaccinations. Maybe there'd be a maverick doctor, maybe Juliet Stevenson would portray a bereft but instinctual mother in a docudrama, maybe hacks would fill their pages and phone-in hosts their long hours with speculation dressed up as information.

That's why I'm passionately for Goldacre, and why I find myself wondering whether we can file a class action against LBC for permitting a presenter to inflict her preposterous prejudices on her listeners, to the detriment of someone else's kids.

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 02/10/09 5:48am

razor

Here's a link to the full evidence the Times unearthed.

http://www.timesonline.co...683643.ece

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 02/10/09 6:00am

deebee

avatar

The sad thing is, like all conspiracy theories, it soon becomes impossible to argue against. All the evidence that shows the claim to be false is just taken as yet more 'proof' of some massive cover-up operation.

"Everyone is crying out for peace. None is crying out for justice...." - Peter Tosh
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 02/10/09 7:57am

illimack

avatar

http://childhealthsafety....ournalism/


disbelief Here we go again I see.

**************************************************

Pull ya cell phone out and call yo next of kin...we 'bout to get funky......2,3 come on ya'll
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 02/10/09 4:08pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

Genesia said:

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism
Brian Deer

The doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition.

The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab. The team also claimed to have discovered a new inflammatory bowel disease underlying the children’s conditions.

However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the children’s ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated. Hospital pathologists, looking for inflammatory bowel disease, reported in the majority of cases that the gut was normal. This was then reviewed and the Lancet paper showed them as abnormal.

Despite involving just a dozen children, the 1998 paper’s impact was extraordinary. After its publication, rates of inoculation fell from 92% to below 80%. Populations acquire “herd immunity” from measles when more than 95% of people have been vaccinated.

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

With two professors, John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch, Wakefield is defending himself against allegations of serious professional misconduct brought by the GMC. The charges relate to ethical aspects of the project, not its findings. All three men deny any misconduct.

Through his lawyers, Wakefield this weekend denied the issues raised by our investigation, but declined to comment further.

http://www.timesonline.co...683671.ece


I KNOW that the American Chicken Pox vaccine can do horrible things to kids. I really hope someone doesn't ask me how I know or questions me on this one.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 02/10/09 4:31pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism. The US Government has agreed to help and compensate the family.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/...0306b.html

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 02/10/09 6:16pm

illimack

avatar

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

Genesia said:

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism
Brian Deer

The doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition.

The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab. The team also claimed to have discovered a new inflammatory bowel disease underlying the children’s conditions.

However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the children’s ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated. Hospital pathologists, looking for inflammatory bowel disease, reported in the majority of cases that the gut was normal. This was then reviewed and the Lancet paper showed them as abnormal.

Despite involving just a dozen children, the 1998 paper’s impact was extraordinary. After its publication, rates of inoculation fell from 92% to below 80%. Populations acquire “herd immunity” from measles when more than 95% of people have been vaccinated.

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

With two professors, John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch, Wakefield is defending himself against allegations of serious professional misconduct brought by the GMC. The charges relate to ethical aspects of the project, not its findings. All three men deny any misconduct.

Through his lawyers, Wakefield this weekend denied the issues raised by our investigation, but declined to comment further.

http://www.timesonline.co...683671.ece


I KNOW that the American Chicken Pox vaccine can do horrible things to kids. I really hope someone doesn't ask me how I know or questions me on this one.


They won't believe u. There are thousands of parents who have seen their children transformmed before their eyes due to vaccine damage. The naysayers will just repeat the company line....."correlation does not equal causation." How many times does this equation have to repeat itself before it does? My nephew, who is a little league quarterback, got the chickenpox vaccine last year. He got a huge knot on his arm and he literally could not raise his arm for two weeks. My sister was not going to let him get the vaccine becuase she knows that the pox is not usually dangerous. Her doctor gave her all these stories about how chicken pox could be dangerous and deadly. She asked me, when did chicken pox get so dangerous...my answer....when they created a damn vaccine for it and now they want parents to buy it.

**************************************************

Pull ya cell phone out and call yo next of kin...we 'bout to get funky......2,3 come on ya'll
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 02/10/09 6:18pm

meow85

avatar

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism. The US Government has agreed to help and compensate the family.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/...0306b.html

confuse

The article states that there wasn't a conclusive link....

What I want to know is, if the natural cause for autism still has not been determined, how is it even possible that the unnatural (man-made) cause is so obviously vaccinations? I'm not saying it's not possible, but where's the proof that one had anything to do with the other?
[Edited 2/10/09 18:20pm]

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 02/10/09 6:23pm

meow85

avatar

illimack said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



I KNOW that the American Chicken Pox vaccine can do horrible things to kids. I really hope someone doesn't ask me how I know or questions me on this one.


They won't believe u. There are thousands of parents who have seen their children transformmed before their eyes due to vaccine damage. The naysayers will just repeat the company line....."correlation does not equal causation." How many times does this equation have to repeat itself before it does? My nephew, who is a little league quarterback, got the chickenpox vaccine last year. He got a huge knot on his arm and he literally could not raise his arm for two weeks. My sister was not going to let him get the vaccine becuase she knows that the pox is not usually dangerous. Her doctor gave her all these stories about how chicken pox could be dangerous and deadly. She asked me, when did chicken pox get so dangerous...my answer....when they created a damn vaccine for it and now they want parents to buy it.


Why would anyone bother to vaccinate against chicken pox? confuse

Just let the kid catch it, heal from it, and there's your natural vaccine right there. shrug

And no, correlation does NOT equal causation. That is the first basic rule of all statistical studies. Only when there's viable proof can there said to be cause and effect, not just because they happen to occur together. I'm not saying vaccination hasn't played a role, but you can't assume that's the only possibility in the rise of diagnoses.

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 02/10/09 6:23pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

meow85 said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism. The US Government has agreed to help and compensate the family.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/...0306b.html

confuse

The article states that there wasn't a conclusive link....

What I want to know is, if the natural cause for autism still has not been determined, how is it even possible that the unnatural (man-made) cause is so obviously vaccinations? I'm not saying it's not possible, but where's the proof that one had anything to do with the other?
[Edited 2/10/09 18:20pm]


Right- no "conclusive" link, but the government paid them compensation anyway. It's just like MJ wasn't guilty in a court of law, but everybody knows something ain't right with the brother, and he paid folks to shut up. Paying off people to shut up is the closest thing to admission of guilt that you can get.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 02/10/09 6:27pm

meow85

avatar

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

meow85 said:


confuse

The article states that there wasn't a conclusive link....

What I want to know is, if the natural cause for autism still has not been determined, how is it even possible that the unnatural (man-made) cause is so obviously vaccinations? I'm not saying it's not possible, but where's the proof that one had anything to do with the other?
[Edited 2/10/09 18:20pm]


Right- no "conclusive" link, but the government paid them compensation anyway. It's just like MJ wasn't guilty in a court of law, but everybody knows something ain't right with the brother, and he paid folks to shut up. Paying off people to shut up is the closest thing to admission of guilt that you can get.

It can mean that, but not necessarily. Sometimes it really is a case of paying someone just to get them to shut the hell up. Easier to pay a pest to go away than it is to contest their claim, whether rightly or wrongly.

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 02/10/09 6:33pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

meow85 said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



Right- no "conclusive" link, but the government paid them compensation anyway. It's just like MJ wasn't guilty in a court of law, but everybody knows something ain't right with the brother, and he paid folks to shut up. Paying off people to shut up is the closest thing to admission of guilt that you can get.

It can mean that, but not necessarily. Sometimes it really is a case of paying someone just to get them to shut the hell up. Easier to pay a pest to go away than it is to contest their claim, whether rightly or wrongly.


Yes, some people are just whinyasses. I agree. But when you see a young 2 year old child, who acts completely normal, and within days of getting the shot, he turns inward and doesn't talk again for months, and acts almost as if he doesn't hear you, and has had a hard time getting back to normal at 6, it gets obvious as to what caused it.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 02/10/09 6:36pm

meow85

avatar

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

meow85 said:


It can mean that, but not necessarily. Sometimes it really is a case of paying someone just to get them to shut the hell up. Easier to pay a pest to go away than it is to contest their claim, whether rightly or wrongly.


Yes, some people are just whinyasses. I agree. But when you see a young 2 year old child, who acts completely normal, and within days of getting the shot, he turns inward and doesn't talk again for months, and acts almost as if he doesn't hear you, and has had a hard time getting back to normal at 6, it gets obvious as to what caused it.

I wouldn't say it's obvious. Two years old is the normal age for autism to manifest even without shots. The baby is normal developmentally until one day when they're 2 or 3, start regressing and withdrawing. That's how it always works.

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 02/10/09 6:39pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

meow85 said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



Yes, some people are just whinyasses. I agree. But when you see a young 2 year old child, who acts completely normal, and within days of getting the shot, he turns inward and doesn't talk again for months, and acts almost as if he doesn't hear you, and has had a hard time getting back to normal at 6, it gets obvious as to what caused it.

I wouldn't say it's obvious. Two years old is the normal age for autism to manifest even without shots. The baby is normal developmentally until one day when they're 2 or 3, start regressing and withdrawing. That's how it always works.


So then, is the shot a trigger if it's not the cause?

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 02/10/09 6:42pm

meow85

avatar

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

meow85 said:


I wouldn't say it's obvious. Two years old is the normal age for autism to manifest even without shots. The baby is normal developmentally until one day when they're 2 or 3, start regressing and withdrawing. That's how it always works.


So then, is the shot a trigger if it's not the cause?

I'm more willing to consider that a possibility than saying the cause is entirely vaccines. The right (or wrong) combination of genetics, hormones, and environmental factors combined with the chemicals or preservatives in certain vaccines might play a role in autism's development. But I think it's a mistake to claim flat out that vaccines cause these disorders.

Especially considering the age of onset is the same whether or not the child has had immunizations. nod

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 02/10/09 7:11pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

meow85 said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



So then, is the shot a trigger if it's not the cause?

I'm more willing to consider that a possibility than saying the cause is entirely vaccines. The right (or wrong) combination of genetics, hormones, and environmental factors combined with the chemicals or preservatives in certain vaccines might play a role in autism's development. But I think it's a mistake to claim flat out that vaccines cause these disorders.

Especially considering the age of onset is the same whether or not the child has had immunizations. nod


I just find it hard to believe that a child from a family with no previous history of such disorder would get it and get it so coincidentally around the same time of the vaccine.

The only reason I even say anything is that I don't want it to be law that people HAVE to get these things. No government owns my body, your body, our the bodies of our children. They will have to decapitate me or assassinate me first.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 02/10/09 7:44pm

meow85

avatar

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

meow85 said:


I'm more willing to consider that a possibility than saying the cause is entirely vaccines. The right (or wrong) combination of genetics, hormones, and environmental factors combined with the chemicals or preservatives in certain vaccines might play a role in autism's development. But I think it's a mistake to claim flat out that vaccines cause these disorders.

Especially considering the age of onset is the same whether or not the child has had immunizations. nod


I just find it hard to believe that a child from a family with no previous history of such disorder would get it and get it so coincidentally around the same time of the vaccine.

The only reason I even say anything is that I don't want it to be law that people HAVE to get these things. No government owns my body, your body, our the bodies of our children. They will have to decapitate me or assassinate me first.


Thing is, we don't yet understand the cause of autism in any situation, vaccines or no. It's not clear if it's genetic, or environmental, or just random. I think before too much effort goes into proving or disproving a link between vaccinations and autism, we'd be better served to focus our energy on trying to find the reasons it would appear at all.

I agree that we shouldn't be forced into immunizations, but at the same time I can understand the public health fears involved in, say, allowing a child with no bolstered immunity who may be carrying something to interact with other kids. Children, especially younger ones, can be pretty fragile. All it takes is contact with one non-immunized child to seriously threaten the health and even life of a child with a weaker immune system.

My sister has lupus, and so everyone in my family was always vaccinated for everything under the sun. No one wanted to be the one to bring home the flu and kill her. confused

Of course, this year I don't live with her anymore and so didn't bother. I got the flu for the first time in my life in January. What a hoot that was. lol

We are stardust. We are golden.

Feb. 12th -28th: Two weeks of corporate and nationalistic dick-stroking in the guise of a sporting event. I can not wait.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 02/11/09 4:24am

razor

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism. The US Government has agreed to help and compensate the family.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/...0306b.html


Please be quiet. There are prospective parents on this site who may well be considering these very issues as we speak. The last thing they need is bullshit statements claiming things as fact where no such evidence exists. It's people like you who have contibuted the deaths of un-immunised children. Have some responsibility and grow up.
[Edited 2/11/09 5:02am]

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 02/11/09 7:44am

illimack

avatar

meow85 said:

illimack said:



They won't believe u. There are thousands of parents who have seen their children transformmed before their eyes due to vaccine damage. The naysayers will just repeat the company line....."correlation does not equal causation." How many times does this equation have to repeat itself before it does? My nephew, who is a little league quarterback, got the chickenpox vaccine last year. He got a huge knot on his arm and he literally could not raise his arm for two weeks. My sister was not going to let him get the vaccine becuase she knows that the pox is not usually dangerous. Her doctor gave her all these stories about how chicken pox could be dangerous and deadly. She asked me, when did chicken pox get so dangerous...my answer....when they created a damn vaccine for it and now they want parents to buy it.


Why would anyone bother to vaccinate against chicken pox? confuse

Just let the kid catch it, heal from it, and there's your natural vaccine right there. shrug

And no, correlation does NOT equal causation. That is the first basic rule of all statistical studies. Only when there's viable proof can there said to be cause and effect, not just because they happen to occur together. I'm not saying vaccination hasn't played a role, but you can't assume that's the only possibility in the rise of diagnoses.


The chicken pox vaccine is now mandatory for school entry into the U.S. I know...it's stupid. Chickenk pox is not deadly for the average person. Now that there is a vaccine, docs are claiming that it's so dangerous.

I agree that vaccines are not the sole cause of autism. Another mother that I talked to explained it like this....
Cigarettes do not always cause lung cancer. If they did, then everyone who smoked would get lung cancer.. But in people that are genetically pre-disposed to get lung cancer, smoking is the trigger. The same can be true of vaccines and autism. Every child who gets a vaccine does not get autism, but it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that vaccines are triggering autism in some children. The numbers are just too high and I'm tired of hearing that children just happen to get autism at 2 years old after getting vaccinated. Where are all the children that you grew up with that suddenly stopped speaking and became withdrawn at two years old? Where are all the autistic people who are 30 and up? They don't exist. The numbers rose as the number of required immunization rose.

Why aren't they studying the children who got sick, comparing their gentics, immune systems, etc, to find a common link? Why aren't they developing a test to see who should and should not be vaccinated. Now, you are really playing russian roulette with your child and hoping for the best. And when your previously healthy child is now sick, your left on your own to deal with the consequences.

The same thing is happening with young girls and the Guardasil vaccine. Previously healthy girls are either dropping dead, or are developing seizure disorders or other debilitating diseases within days of receiving the vaccine. They are being told it's a coincidence. And we are supposed to believe this shit? confuse Please!!!!!

**************************************************

Pull ya cell phone out and call yo next of kin...we 'bout to get funky......2,3 come on ya'll
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 02/11/09 8:09am

illimack

avatar

razor said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism. The US Government has agreed to help and compensate the family.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/...0306b.html


Please be quiet. There are prospective parents on this site who may well be considering these very issues as we speak. The last thing they need is bullshit statements claiming things as fact where no such evidence exists. It's people like you who have contibuted the deaths of un-immunised children. Have some responsibility and grow up.
[Edited 2/11/09 5:02am]


What in the link that he posted is not factual? Please.....do tell? And why should prosepective parents not hear both sides of the issue? I'm beginning to think that you work for MERK.

**************************************************

Pull ya cell phone out and call yo next of kin...we 'bout to get funky......2,3 come on ya'll
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 02/11/09 8:18am

razor

illimack said:

razor said:



Please be quiet. There are prospective parents on this site who may well be considering these very issues as we speak. The last thing they need is bullshit statements claiming things as fact where no such evidence exists. It's people like you who have contibuted the deaths of un-immunised children. Have some responsibility and grow up.
[Edited 2/11/09 5:02am]


What in the link that he posted is not factual? Please.....do tell? And why should prosepective parents not hear both sides of the issue? I'm beginning to think that you work for MERK.


"Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism"= Not a fact, speculation. There is no "both sides", there is only empircal evidence and proven conclusions. Creating arbitrary links and following bad science and guesswork has led directly to deaths. The day you have hard evidence is the day I will withdraw everything I have said. Until then, you are contributing to death and disease. That's a fact

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 02/11/09 8:22am

illimack

avatar

razor said:

illimack said:



What in the link that he posted is not factual? Please.....do tell? And why should prosepective parents not hear both sides of the issue? I'm beginning to think that you work for MERK.


"Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism"= Not a fact, speculation. There is no "both sides", there is only empircal evidence and proven conclusions. Creating arbitrary links and following bad science and guesswork has led directly to deaths. The day you have hard evidence is the day I will withdraw everything I have said. Until then, you are contributing to death and disease. That's a fact


O.K.. So he should have said " here is link that shows the U.S. government conceeding that vaccines triggered a girl's autism." There! Is that better for you?

How many children in the U.K. have died from measles? In the U.S., there were 135 cases last year with no deaths? How many died in the U.K.? I'm not asking to be a smart ass. I'm really curious.

**************************************************

Pull ya cell phone out and call yo next of kin...we 'bout to get funky......2,3 come on ya'll
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 02/11/09 8:29am

razor

illimack said:

razor said:



"Here's a REAL incident of a vaccine causing Autism"= Not a fact, speculation. There is no "both sides", there is only empircal evidence and proven conclusions. Creating arbitrary links and following bad science and guesswork has led directly to deaths. The day you have hard evidence is the day I will withdraw everything I have said. Until then, you are contributing to death and disease. That's a fact


O.K.. So he should have said " here is link that shows the U.S. government conceeding that vaccines triggered a girl's autism." There! Is that better for you?

How many children in the U.K. have died from measles? In the U.S., there were 135 cases last year with no deaths? How many died in the U.K.? I'm not asking to be a smart ass. I'm really curious.



More reading what you want to read. Quote "The language in the document does not establish a clear-cut vaccine-autism link". End of.

In the last year, I believe 2 deaths and mutiple cases of severe long-term illness.

Since the discredited MMR/autism scare, vaccination have fallen significantly and measles cases have risen from 56 in 1998 to over 1300 last year.
[Edited 2/11/09 8:30am]

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 02/11/09 8:34am

razor

Mass Jabs To Stop Measles Deaths
1:23pm UK, Saturday November 29, 2008

Michelle May, North of England correspondent

A measles outbreak is threatening lives, prompting a mass vaccination programme in one of the country's worst-hit areas.


Cases of the disease are soaring across England and Wales



Doctors are preparing to immunise residents in a small corner of east Cheshire around Crewe, where almost 70 cases have been reported this year.

The alarming figures are worse than anywhere in England and Wales outside London.

Dr Ayo Oyinolye, from Cheshire Health Protection Unit, told Sky News: "The outbreak here is not showing any signs of tailing off.

"If we don't respond the infection will grow, and in the worst case scenario, we will see one or two deaths and many children suffering serious side effects from the disease."

Teams of nurses will vaccinate up to 10,500 children in 177 primary schools and 33 secondary schools. The jab will also be offered to young staff members.

Measles cases are soaring across England and Wales with 1,049 confirmed cases so far this year, surpassing last year's total of 990.

Dr Rosemary McCann, from the Health Protection Agency, said: "Britain is on the cusp of a measles epidemic because a large cohort of children and teenagers missed out on MMR vaccination over the past five to 10 years."

In 2006, a 13-year old boy from north west England became the first person in the UK to die of the virus in 14 years.

Last August the Chief Medical Officer announced an MMR catch-up programme, urging Primary Care Trusts and GPs to identify individuals not yet vaccinated.

As a result of the recent outbreak in Cheshire, the local Health Protection Unit has written to parents seeking urgent consent for their children to be immunised.

Dr Oyinolye said: "This is a big step but it's a nasty disease which is avoidable.

"So long as MMR uptake is low, we have a large number of children who are not immune…the virus can easily spread across the country."

http://news.sky.com/skyne...1415165895

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him"

Abraham Lincoln
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 3 123>
  Create new topic   Printable version   (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > Doc who linked MMR and autism cooked the data