Do you side with Bush and the USA, or the dictators and terrorists?

Lately I've been getting into several discussions about how many people here in the US (mainly lefties/socialists/communists) tend to sympathize with the Islamic extremists and spread hatred towards our President.

Why are there more anti-Bush t-shirts than anti-Osama t-shirts? Why is it cool to trash the president, but un-cool to talk badly about Arab terrorists? Why the fuck are people trying to get lawers for terrorists?

It seems things are really backwards in this country, and much of the rest of the world. There is more hatred for us than those who bomb buildings and crowds, just because they feel joy in it or because their "God" tells them to.

Many lefties in this country seem to have no loyalty to this country at all, and that sucks. I'm sure they'd be happier with a democrat in office, but it would be nice if we could all be on some sort of side together.

i wouldn't say i side with either. the problem i see is that the western world - no, not just bush but pretty much the whole capitalist, westernized world - doesn't want to allow socialist/authoritarian states to remain outside of the capitalist society.

i agree that t shirts depicting bush as the devil are just ignorant. i don't mean ignorant in the sense of rude but ignorant in the sense that many people who think this iraq conflict/war on terrorism is a "bush administration" thing are either misinformed or uninformed. osama bin laden and his group of terrorists are certainly worse than bush and his cronies but i think people don't bother to wear anti-osama shirts because its a given that everyone accepts that his actions are wrong. because many people don't think bush is wrong i believe more people feel the need to express their dissatisfaction with his choices.

that said, people do need to recognize that the notion of democrat/republican is kind of pointless. both, democrats and republicans, are part of the capitalist machine and that machine has tentacles all over the world. they (meaning both parties) have much invested in continued and exceled global capitalism. this all really kicked up after the oil embargo of 1973 when the US re-examined its foriegn policy strategies.

desert storm was one of these strategic motions and, though it was instigated by george bush sr, in all of his 8 years in office, clinton did not withdraw all the troops from iraq. he, along with most politicians (again, democrat and republican) in this nation, want to maintain the status quo of post-cold war capitalism. the goal of setting up a military base in the middle east was desired for years before the bush's were ever in office. clinton was not about to undo that achieved goal.

i think the lefties do have loyalty to the country and i believe they want what's best for the nation therefore they express their dislike and disapproval of bush. i just think many of them are misguided or misinformed of the history behind the US involvement in the middle east.

I know you're not trying to resurrect that dead damn rotting horse of "either/or" loyalty politics for another round of necro-equestrian flailing.

some folks aren't happy with bush because they love america.

some folks are completely fine with removing dictators and still don't like the bush administration.

why is that so hard to comprehend, without bringing in the "if you don't like bush, then you must love osama" foolishness?

that line of propaganda is sooooo, like, 2003.

EvilWhiteMale said:

SassyBritches said:

Anxiety said:

EvilWhiteMale said:

2teh9s said:

EvilWhiteMale said:

2teh9s said:

Actually, you're not trying anymore. It's already done.

2teh9s said:

EvilWhiteMale said:

2teh9s said:

2teh9s said:

Why don't you try and responding intelligently.

Or were you just trying to get people riled up?

EvilWhiteMale said:

EvilWhiteMale said:

2teh9s said:

Or were you just trying to get people riled up?

I'm only interested in discussing this issue with those who are worthy. Grow up and perhapse we'll dialogue.

2teh9s said:

first and foremost, EWM and 2the9s: KNOCK IT OFF. i don't care who's goading whom or who started it or whatthefreakever - STOP IT. i know i'm not a mod in this forum, but i'm asking you as a fellow orger - if ya can't play nice, don't try to share a sandbox.

now:

EWM, you're poking around at a really good argument about dissent in this country, but i think this 'either/or' argument is not only pointlessly mired in right-wing dogma, but i'd also venture to suggest that the 'either/or' argument is becoming more and more unfashionable as a form of bandwagon peer-pressuring, even among those who lean on the right.

do you really think it's as simple as "if you're against bush, you're for the evildoers?" do you honestly, truly think it's that simple of an equation?


oh, and uh, OH YEAH - the good argument you're poking around at...i do believe that it's time to quit cawing about what we're doing wrong and start advocating for what would be considered optimal solutions. unfortunately, i think that the current political climate still marginalizes anything straying from the bush administration mainstream as "radical" or "subversive". frustrating, since the very core of patriotism contains a healthy dose of dissent....doesn't it?
[Edited 6/2/05 19:45pm]

Never having left the topic, I find it unnecesary to be told to get back on...

What about all my ON topic points?

I think this issue is too important for it to be sidetracked (as I knew would happen) into personal stuff. Which is why I acknowldged it up front. I also alerted a mod to it just for this reason.

Who did you WANT to respond? Who was this directed at?

EvilWhiteMale said:

Anxiety said:

i forgot to comment on the lawyer aspect of ewm's post.

the reason people want to get lawyers to those being detained is that the entire us criminal court system is based on innocent until proven guilty. these men have been detained for years without any counsel provided and its been made ok due to the rules of war. the strange thing is that part of the rules of war are that one must prove that those being detained are, indeed, part of the opposition and this has not been done in the case of guantanamo bay. furthermore, acts of torture are not permitted in the rules of war nor are they acceptable to UN charters. the fact that the US has made changes to what can be called "torture" is a dispicable act used to justify or, at the very least, permit these acts of torture. this is why people want these guys to have lawyers. they want them to have lawyers because being provided with legal representation, regardless of who you are or what you've done, is part of what makes america such a great place to live. having access to counsel is something we pride ourselves on because we have faith in our justice system. when you take away this right to counsel it suggests that you don't have respect for our justice system...pretty sad when we tout that america is the best nation in the world.

on a personal note, i've worked hard with hundreds of thousands of people from amnesty int'l and various other int'l human rights organizations as well as citizens acting on their own or through school groups, to fight for the release of prisoner's of torture in various countries. i never thought the day would come when america would be the nation i was pleading to for the release of tortured prisoners. i'm not saying its never happened in the past but with the current situation, not only is abuse clearly happening but the current administration doesn't seem to care enough about our own history to correct it. its a disgrace that i have to write letters condemning torture to my own leaders.

Anxiety said:

chiltonmusic said:

Hmmm...lemme see....do I side with Bush(or any other President, for that matter) and the USA or the dictators and terrorists the USA helped to create? Why is the little bit of history left out when these people take the weapons and technology the USA gave or sold to them and then they become monsters? Why do we forget that Bush was governor of Texas where the most people were put to death? Oh, because the US puts people to death humanely? Why do we not get pissed off when the reason for Bush's war changed in the middle of the game? Does anyone that supports any administration ever wonder about our foreign policies and ever wonder why people do the things they do and why they hate the US?

If someone came over here to overthrow our nation because they feel Bush is a dictator, how would you feel then, Evil?

EvilWhiteMale said:

SassyBritches said:

Anxiety said:

uPtoWnNY said:

EvilWhiteMale said: