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DISRESPECTFUL, a Gooey rant on religion and the fear of the unknown. Okay. I can understand that taking on the handle JESUSWASQUEER in chat might seem a bit disrespectful. I just did it to tease ONE chatter, but upset three, unwillingly.
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"It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
My IQ is 139, what's yours? | |
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*puts confi-chair and popcorn away and goes back to work but makes mental note to check back on this thread later today*
"It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
My IQ is 139, what's yours? | |
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SpcMs said: *puts confi-chair and popcorn away and goes back to work but makes mental note to check back on this thread later today*
 It is quiet. Had been all weekend. Quite boring for insomniacs like me. | |
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Between people who dismiss the Bible as a bunch of folktales
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Hyungbu said: Between people who dismiss the Bible as a bunch of folktales
and those who believe it to be the Word of God, could there be a middle ground? Peace I always thought so...it's were I've lived practically all of my life... We just tend to be a lot more quiet than those who live on the outskirts... | |
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Byron said: Hyungbu said: Between people who dismiss the Bible as a bunch of folktales
and those who believe it to be the Word of God, could there be a middle ground? Peace I always thought so...it's were I've lived practically all of my life... We just tend to be a lot more quiet than those who live on the outskirts... As if you ever seen me here... Then there are moment in your life you need to get outspoken... | |
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gooeythehamster said: Then there are moment in your life you need to get outspoken... I understand where you are coming from, Gooey... The points you made in your 'opening statement' are perfectly clear and valid: You see Jesus as a wise man, but you also see the atrocities and distortions of religion. I think many people can agree with you. Your concept about the fear of the unknown is interesting too. It is tempting to think that people are religious because they need an explanation and are afraid of not knowing. But I don't think this is necessarily the case... I think the roots go deeper than that... Anyway, I agree that people need a sense of humour. I'm sure Jesus had one! Peace | |
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Byron said: Hyungbu said: Between people who dismiss the Bible as a bunch of folktales
and those who believe it to be the Word of God, could there be a middle ground? Peace I always thought so...it's were I've lived practically all of my life... We just tend to be a lot more quiet than those who live on the outskirts... I believe the Bible is the Word of God which contains many parables (folktales) that teach wonderful lessons. Hi Sweet Byron....  So...how's everybody doing?  | |
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gooeythehamster said: Okay. I can understand that taking on the handle JESUSWASQUEER in chat might seem a bit disrespectful. I just did it to tease ONE chatter, but upset three, unwillingly.
It was pointed out to me when I did, so I changed. I do not need a handle to advocate that the bible is just a folkstore written by highly dubious intracable sources that claim things never proven, and a book that was used as excuse to persecute entire cicilisations. Has it occured to anyone else but me it seems humans are the only beings on this planet to conjure an all powerful being to still their fears of the unknown? Worship is something alien to the rest of the planet. To me, it is a joke to claim Jesus was queer, while all he was was a wise man, ahead of his time, whoms legacy was raped and abused. He was not queer. But he was no saint either. Just a human being that cared for others. His lifestory altered to fit other people's agenda's. [*] I was typing an excuse for my rave here, but removed it as I do not need an excuse. My points are valid. Anybody quoting the "good book"at me can stuff their intrepetations of 2000 year old folk tales where the sun don't shine. The Bible is a beautiful collection of words, hopelessly out of touch with reality. I am glad it still gives joy and hope to many, bummed out by the reason it gives to some to shut out reality and stops them from grwoing as a human being. I gladl say that IF there had been a devil, religion would have been his forst creation. Well okay I have no idea about your earlier debate but I do have to say this. What makes you so sure you are correct. I mean I have gotten into this debate with Neversin and Evil White Male and I never get a clear answer. You are offering at best your opinion on the Jesus and the Bible. It is not based in fact so it is at best conjecture. Why is it you feel you have an intellectual leg up on a book and its history that you have not really studied? Over the past month Christians like myself and Eklab101 have given scientific arguments of fact around scripture and of course people have taken that for what it is worth but the science is there. Granted Ekalb is way better at that than myself. See if the teaching of Jesus were 'raped' as you say they would not have lasted as long as they have. I say study them and their history before you believe in claims like the one you jst made because the is not factual. I appreciate you apologizing though, that was cool cause you didn't have to and I think that showed respect in hindsight. Peace THE CARDINAL HAS SPOKEN!!! | |
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the difference between those who believe in a religion and those who don't is really only one thing. you BELIEVE you will die and that's the end. we BELIEVE we will die and that's only the beginning.
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gooey, you completely misunderstand the essence of God and faith.
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder | |
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SassierBritches said: the difference between those who believe in a religion and those who don't is really only one thing. you BELIEVE you will die and that's the end. we BELIEVE we will die and that's only the beginning.
either way it is an "unknown" that you are believing in. I don't get this, it's like that "atheism is also just another religion"-line. It is not. As namepeace put it, faith is belief without knowledge. Not 'believing' in some life after death and not 'believing' in some God is, given the current knowledge, the most 'logic' thing. Some people 'believe' you can travel at warpspeed, but speed of light is the more probable limit. Can we prove any of those two statements? Not exactly, so they are both 'unknows' that you are believing in, right? Some people 'believe' that Saddam personally planned the 9/11 bombings, and some people 'believe' God commands them to go and kill infidels so they can screw some virgins in heaven. "It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
My IQ is 139, what's yours? | |
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SpcMs said: SassierBritches said: the difference between those who believe in a religion and those who don't is really only one thing. you BELIEVE you will die and that's the end. we BELIEVE we will die and that's only the beginning.
either way it is an "unknown" that you are believing in. I don't get this, it's like that "atheism is also just another religion"-line. It is not. As namepeace put it, faith is belief without knowledge. Not 'believing' in some life after death and not 'believing' in some God is, given the current knowledge, the most 'logic' thing. Some people 'believe' you can travel at warpspeed, but speed of light is the more probable limit. Can we prove any of those two statements? Not exactly, so they are both 'unknows' that you are believing in, right? Some people 'believe' that Saddam personally planned the 9/11 bombings, and some people 'believe' God commands them to go and kill infidels so they can screw some virgins in heaven. Atheists generally misunderstand what religions are about. (I want to use the plural here as I think that the word 'religion' will be read as 'Christianity' by many people...) Scientific knowledge gives us a framework in which to understand how things work. It is restricted to the categories of time and space. Religions are concerned with the unfathomable mystery of our existence. This existence too is subjected to time and space, but all religions agree that some dimension of it trenscends time and space. Now you may say: 'I don't need transcendence to explain why I'm here... Science tells me that enery became matter, matter evolved and consciousness arised... And here I am! My brain produces my consciousness, which is like software running on hardware...' Well, the fundamental message of all the world religions is that -- amazingly enough -- things don't work in that order. Consciousness dosen't arise from matter, but time and space and matter as secondary phenomenons arising from a primary consciousness. Some people may disagree with me at this point, but I don't think religions are trying to explain the world. In another thread, you said: faith is just some man-made construct to fit different needs in different times and under different circumstances. It may seem so. And it often does work that way, because some people tend to read everything literally and miss the deeper meaning. But the real 'need' that is being fulfilled doesn't actually vary. Religions -- through stories, allegories, parables, life accounts, cosmogonies, cosmologies, myth, poetry, etc, etc... -- are doing the same thing over and over again: putting us in contact with the unfathomable mystery of our existence. This is the core, the center. People who find this center, whatever their religion, will find that the teachings of the great spiritual teachers (Jesus, Buddha, Lao-Tze, Mahomet, etc.) are easy to understand and to apply. In fact, they flow naturally from the peacful center shared by all the great traditions of the world. . | |
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There is a huge difference between religion and spirituality; It is possible to be spiritual person whilst believing that religion is a waste of time. It's also possible to be very religious and not have an ounce of spirituality, so when SassierBritches says:
the difference between those who believe in a religion and those who don't is really only one thing. you BELIEVE you will die and that's the end. we BELIEVE we will die and that's only the beginning
that's not necessarily the case - I don't believe in religion, but I do believe that this life is just part of our experience. | |
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chiltonmusic said: Over the past month Christians like myself and Eklab101 have given scientific arguments of fact around scripture and of course people have taken that for what it is worth but the science is there.
Most Christian scientific proof looks like a Michael Moore documentary; all warbled to fit the cause, like all propaganda. I am told that religion is believe, so scientific proof of belief is somewhat dubious in my eyes. I see the folktale origin of stories like Genesis and do not expect scientific proof of an actual arc or a world created in six days. Then there is the part I am asked to believe another scripture, where a man is presented as the son of a god. His death and resurection should asure me that when I follow some rules it will get me to a place called heaven. If I do not, I will go to hell. First of all, I am very spiritual and know there is something more than what the eye can see, but an entire plain of excistence? That sounds like a story of Star Trek to me. The point comes down to this; I do not believe. I am very happy to let everybody and everything be, but too often I am told, esp on sites like this that my being a homosexual is a huge problem. That is where I draw the line and will enter a forum where I normally am not inclined to go. Also I am not willing to enter in a discussion where Christians will quote folktales to me. I am willing to listen some of the wisdoms in the bible, koran or thora, but I will not let those scriptures form my being. Mother Nature made me the way I am and it took some time to get to grips with it. When I was young and impressionable I read the bible. I read the thora and the koran. I saw the simularities. I saw why these scriptures were written. It is hard to admit that religion is something that evolves. Not even the most orthodox Christian, Jew or Islamite does worship as was when there were no scriptures. Scriptures were changed, tinkered with, deleted to fit society, aka the ruling class of the time. Even Prince is subject to that; switching scriptures changes the man's attitude in just two generations; imagine how the face of religion changed in times when the written word was non-excistent. It varied from region to region. Do not think I have not studied the scriptures. I was probably more aware of religion that most here, who were indoctrined by their parents, as is logical. I was raised in a non practising Catholic family, with roots in Judaism. My father, Catholic, made a switch to Judaism when I was 7, but of course the process was set in motion way earlier in his life. He died when I was ten, unable to ask him about some essential religious questions. From age 12 I spent two summer holidays in my great-uncle's monastery to study the bible. With him I was able to question the scriptures and he set me on the path of the koran and thora, which I read in the year between the two summers I spent with him. Actually it was this old man (he was around 70 at the time) who finally was willing to answer my questions. He was the one that told me that the scriptures were not to be taken literally. And he was from a strict form of the Christian church. But his life as a missionary in South Africa had taught him to open his eyes to reality. In his missionary days he preached safe-sex to his flock, which was and still the direct opposite opinion of the Catholic Church. There are just two major Catholic forms in Europe's mainland, which made my point of view somewhat more specific than I might have been able to in a country like the US, where so many forms of Catholism have developed over the years. At age 13 I officially exited the Catholic church. My aim then became set on the Jewish religion, not firstly because my father's switch to this religion. The main reason then was because prior to the war my grandmother on mother's side switched from Judaism to Catholism, to be able to marry my grandfather. This got the entire family savely through the war, but my father was very adament that his four children were aware of their heritage. Especially on me, the youngest, the most spiritual in the family, he impressed the knowledge I could easily enter this other religion if I wanted to, because of my link to it on mother's side. I dove head on into this. Entered youth study groups. Started being educated on the thora. The orthodox side of the religion beckoned me. I was welcomed into this new family with open arms. Made starts with Hebrew studies. But the deeper I entered these studies, the harder I found to conform. Because, alongside the deepening of my religious feelings, my sexual feelings were blossoming too. My falling in love with a classmate made it clear. I knew how ALL religions I had studied thought about homosexuality. I was alone in my mind, felt isolated, and felt incapable to share my thoughts with my rabbi. I knew what his answer would be. Our studies were intense. His thoughts on people like me known. So I dropped out. I left without a real answer to the question why. I had to re-educate myself again. It took me three years to come to terms with my sexuality. But never again my doubts were centered on religion. I was sure. Religion is right for people who are willing to believe half truths and folktales. People who derive power from their beliefs I love. People who believe and have a big enough heart not to prosecute others with any scripture I adore. Live and let live. A religion in itself. To me words from the past are nothing more than a lesson on how to live life now. And the future is shaped by our actions today. I believe in that. I believe in the power of life. Death is a part of that. And there is continuation after life, but not in ways thaught by any religion I have encountered. The one closest enough is Budism. 2004 to me is the hardest year in my life. Losing the person closest to me has thaught me things without words. The questions I sought for so long were right in front of me and I am sure that Jesus the carpenter would have been able to enter a beautiful discussion about these experiences. As a spiritual person I am sure I would have learned from him and he from me, because that is what it is all about; being able to listen. And I am still open. My soul is an open door and all are invited. I am just afraid that ANY organised religion closes doors because they address love and life on the wrong terms. And who claims that? I do. I am the center of my universe, as you are of yours. I shape mine as is fitting, as you do. I just do not see reason to prosecute anyone on the cores of their believes and being based on something too rigid to be called a part of life. Again, live and let live. Open the door. let a fresh wind blow through your life and open your eyes to what really matters. Live. | |
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namepeace said: And through His life and His Death Jesus taught us all we need to know.
This, my dear, is a closed door. | |
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chiltonmusic said: See if the teaching of Jesus were 'raped' as you say they would not have lasted as long as they have. I say study them and their history before you believe in claims like the one you jst made because the is not factual.
With raped I mean that his teaching were not written down by him. His words were intrepeted by his followers, already watering down the wine. With raped I mean that the so called good book was molded into its current day form to fit culture throughout the years. Translating errors not even entering the picture here. Anyone claiming that the book is the word as written by any god is naieve. Believe indeed. | |
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gooeythehamster said: IF there had been a devil, religion would have been his forst creation.
Satan is real. Furthermore he does not want you to serve God. He wants to turn everyone away from God that he can. So you are absolutely dead on when you say religion was his first creation. He instituted false religion. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says: "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works." A religion is false if it does not teach the truth from the Bible. False religion is like false money—it may look like the real thing, but it is worthless. Many Christmas' ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way. | |
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Hyungbu said: Your concept about the fear of the unknown is interesting. It is tempting to think that people are religious because they need an explanation and are afraid of not knowing.
Religion was formed from the first moment humanity was able to think and learn. Religion has been a tool to trying to understand the world better. It also has been a tool to subdue the working class. (Hehehe, that sounds like communist propaganda, but it ain't). Catholism especially shows us that the word of a few (not god) was used to become the better. Organised religion is always about politics and gain in the end, how humbleand pure it's begiinings. Religion comes from the earliest fear for thunder. Of fire. Of not knowing how the world works. Strong minds always have tried to explain the world to the best of their knowledge. That is just a logical way of evolving. Religion has been a tool to get a grip on a world of wonder. From the earliest forms of shamanism to the mass religion of today. See how it disappears in some parts of the world and get smore orthodox in others in these days. It is all about how the world is perceived. In some parts of the world the US is now portrayed by images of the US and Bush jr. Their counterparts ostracize Islam and their warped sense of what it stands for. Again, organised religion is politics. I am in no way against it as long as it is not used to stigmatize or persecute others. | |
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ekalb101 said: gooeythehamster said: IF there had been a devil, religion would have been his forst creation.
Satan is real. Furthermore he does not want you to serve God. He wants to turn everyone away from God that he can. So you are absolutely dead on when you say religion was his first creation. He instituted false religion. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says: "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works." A religion is false if it does not teach the truth from the Bible. False religion is like false money—it may look like the real thing, but it is worthless. Wow. Words from the good book. And again, a highlighted closed door. One thing is I am sure of that was part of Jesus's original preachings was to be open. Jesus never ever laid eyes on the book you prosecute other with. | |
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gooeythehamster said: ekalb101 said: Satan is real. Furthermore he does not want you to serve God. He wants to turn everyone away from God that he can. So you are absolutely dead on when you say religion was his first creation. He instituted false religion. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says: "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works." A religion is false if it does not teach the truth from the Bible. False religion is like false money—it may look like the real thing, but it is worthless. Wow. Words from the good book. And again, a highlighted closed door. One thing is I am sure of that was part of Jesus's original preachings was to be open. Jesus never ever laid eyes on the book you prosecute other with. Jesus had the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) and read from them in the temple often. He was constantly quoting from them when he taught. They were in scroll form at that time and were kept at the temple. Many Christmas' ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way. | |
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gooeythehamster said: Again, organised religion is politics. I am in no way against it as long as it is not used to stigmatize or persecute others.
Yes, most religion today is neck deep in the political affairs of the country they are in. This is contrary to what Jesus taught and what the bible teaches. True christians do not get involved in politics. Their allegiance is to God's heavenly government and it's king, Jesus. They do not stigmatize or persecute others. Many Christmas' ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way. | |
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gooeythehamster said: chiltonmusic said: See if the teaching of Jesus were 'raped' as you say they would not have lasted as long as they have. I say study them and their history before you believe in claims like the one you jst made because the is not factual.
With raped I mean that his teaching were not written down by him. His words were intrepeted by his followers, already watering down the wine. With raped I mean that the so called good book was molded into its current day form to fit culture throughout the years. Translating errors not even entering the picture here. Anyone claiming that the book is the word as written by any god is naieve. Believe indeed. Gooey, have you ever done any research on the dead sea scrolls? The Dead Sea Scrolls are ancient Jewish manuscripts, most of them written in Hebrew, some in Aramaic, and a few in Greek. Many of these scrolls and fragments are over 2,000 years old, dating to before the birth of Jesus. When all the scrolls and fragments are sorted out, they account for about 800 manuscripts. About one quarter, or just over 200 manuscripts, are copies of portions of the Hebrew Bible text (the old testament). Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were from about the ninth and tenth centuries C.E. Could these manuscripts truly be relied upon as faithful transmissions of God’s Word, since the writing of the Hebrew Scriptures was completed well over one thousand years earlier? Professor Julio Trebolle Barrera, a member of the international team of editors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, states: “The Isaiah Scroll provides irrefutable proof that the transmission of the biblical text through a period of more than one thousand years by the hands of Jewish copyists has been extremely faithful and careful.” THE scroll that Barrera refers to contains the complete book of Isaiah. To date, among over 200 Biblical manuscripts found at Qumran, portions have been identified of every book of the Hebrew Scriptures except the book of Esther. Unlike the Isaiah Scroll, most are represented only by fragments, containing less than one tenth of any given book. The Bible books that were most popular at Qumran were Psalms (36 copies), Deuteronomy (29 copies), and Isaiah (21 copies). These are also the books most frequently quoted in the Christian Greek Scriptures. These scrolls demonstrate that the Bible has not undergone fundamental changes. Many Christmas' ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way. | |
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P o o |/, P o o |\ | |
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There is good in all that is alive. God Is Love and God is Good. | |
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POOK said: HEY GOOEY JESUS CLAIM TO BE SON OF GOD SO EITHER HE WISE MAN AND HE RIGHT OR HE CRAZY AND OR LIAR THERE NO MIDDLE GROUND There is a middle ground. It is the middle ground that the bible is filled with propagandous fodder and that Jesus' words were taken out of context by people playing mind games. Jesus was ahead of his time in many ways. The story as is contains beautiful stories. | |
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ekalb101 said: gooeythehamster said: Again, organised religion is politics. I am in no way against it as long as it is not used to stigmatize or persecute others.
Yes, most religion today is neck deep in the political affairs of the country they are in. Only today? Please. Jesus was subject to politics. Half of the old testament is filled with political scheming. | |
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ekalb101 said: gooeythehamster said: Wow. Words from the good book. And again, a highlighted closed door. One thing is I am sure of that was part of Jesus's original preachings was to be open. Jesus never ever laid eyes on the book you prosecute other with. Jesus had the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) and read from them in the temple often. He was constantly quoting from them when he taught. They were in scroll form at that time and were kept at the temple. My mistake. I was in this case refering to the new testament. | |
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ekalb101 said: gooeythehamster said: With raped I mean that his teaching were not written down by him. His words were intrepeted by his followers, already watering down the wine. With raped I mean that the so called good book was molded into its current day form to fit culture throughout the years. Translating errors not even entering the picture here. Anyone claiming that the book is the word as written by any god is naieve. Believe indeed. Gooey, have you ever done any research on the dead sea scrolls? The Dead Sea Scrolls are ancient Jewish manuscripts, most of them written in Hebrew, some in Aramaic, and a few in Greek. Many of these scrolls and fragments are over 2,000 years old, dating to before the birth of Jesus. When all the scrolls and fragments are sorted out, they account for about 800 manuscripts. About one quarter, or just over 200 manuscripts, are copies of portions of the Hebrew Bible text (the old testament). Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were from about the ninth and tenth centuries C.E. Could these manuscripts truly be relied upon as faithful transmissions of God’s Word, since the writing of the Hebrew Scriptures was completed well over one thousand years earlier? Professor Julio Trebolle Barrera, a member of the international team of editors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, states: “The Isaiah Scroll provides irrefutable proof that the transmission of the biblical text through a period of more than one thousand years by the hands of Jewish copyists has been extremely faithful and careful.” THE scroll that Barrera refers to contains the complete book of Isaiah. To date, among over 200 Biblical manuscripts found at Qumran, portions have been identified of every book of the Hebrew Scriptures except the book of Esther. Unlike the Isaiah Scroll, most are represented only by fragments, containing less than one tenth of any given book. The Bible books that were most popular at Qumran were Psalms (36 copies), Deuteronomy (29 copies), and Isaiah (21 copies). These are also the books most frequently quoted in the Christian Greek Scriptures. These scrolls demonstrate that the Bible has not undergone fundamental changes. I must say I am not as aware of these details as you are. My interest in religion has waned before much of these texts became known. I am aware of their ecxistence. Let's draw a line between old and new testament. I am sure that the old testament, practised in a fairly small part of the world was hardly subject to change, as the base of the religion was centered. As religion then meant something we cannot even imagine now, the words were carefully copied and taught in their purest form, not subject to translations or divided by huge different points of view. These things happened when the words spread across the Mediteranean. Isn't it the case that there are scriptures there of female preachers? And that many scriptures over the centuries were put aside as they did not fit the then common form of Christianity? The new testament is most certainly tinkered with. But, as I said; if I want to dive head into that I would have to study new data, something I am not really interested in. | |
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