i like him

EvilWhiteMale said:

seems you know as much about jokes & humor as you know about music
.
[This message was edited Thu Apr 29 6:52:15 2004 by Mistadobalina]

EvilWhiteMale said:

No people didn't write Prince off cuz there was substance there.The same can't be said for Manson.

EvilWhiteMale said:

Yeah, that's why he went to a suburban neighborhood and knocked on folks' doors asking if he offends them.Same tired routine--someone with nothing to offer,DESPERATLY trying to get a rise out of people and trying to count in the world.
What's dumb is blind hero worship and not seeing the writing on the wall

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[This message was edited Thu Apr 29 7:27:48 2004 by silentflute]

[This message was edited Thu Apr 29 7:28:21 2004 by silentflute]

EvilWhiteMale said:

maybe that's the point. I should smoke some crap or drink to like him ...I said before I don't like his music (or whatever) or his "voice" that's why i judge him. Not by his looks. I only said that his looks were helping him to be succesfull, this man/woman is NOT having IT from his songs!!!
I agree on the "teenage point" Kids want to be like him, like a rebel..these kids have grown up now, and..... bye bye marylin manson...
Limp Bizkit... same story...KID ROCK! Nice that kids learn about rock music through these bands, but it is only temporary!

Its easy to write Manson off because of his image, but that is just an easy way out. Plenty of artists are fueled by their image at first, and thats often how the post MTV music industry chooses to market bands. The downside of this is, folks then declare that your music has "no substance". I've heard this over and over again about a whole lot of artists I truly enjoy, especially if they first hit in the 80s, when MTV was hot and you HAD to use your image to sell. Bands like Duran Duran, Tears For Fears and yes, even Prince are often written off by those unfamiliar with their music. I've found myself defending all of these artists at one time or another by those who cannot see past their image, and realise that they produced some wonderful music.

When Manson first exploded onto the scene, it was at a time when rock artists had dropped much of the theatrical side of their shows. There is nothing wrong with this, but Manson chose to go for an over-the-top take with his image and live shows. Yes, he was all about the shock value, but at the core there was a message: don't just follow the herd. Now, its true that many of Manson's fans did exactly that, by imitating their idol, but this is true of just about every artist to ever make it big.

His first few albums were all produced by Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails. All of these albums are steeped in the sounds that Reznor was experimenting with at the time (this is the era between Broken and The Downward Spiral). All had a hard, industrial noise sound to them. What made them stand out was the lyrics by Manson. It would be very easy to dismiss the Antichrist Superstar album as being all about shock, but its actually a very smart disc that is structured as a concept album. The story unfolds of an abused child who grows into a huge rock star, and eventually into a facist icon. In the end, the message of Antichrist Superstar sums up what MM's name itself implies: our current culture is creating monsters, whether they be serial killers or power hungry politicos. What's worse, we elevate murderers to the same level as we do Hollywood stars and rock singers. Is there much of a difference between the celebrity and legend of Marilyn Monroe and that of Charles Manson? Not much, unfortunately. Charles Manson is as much of a household name, and his crimes are as well known as anything Monroe did in her lifetime. Its alarming, to say the least, but a very good point is made here.

Manson ditched Reznor thereafter, with the much debated Mechanical Animals. Many people who had become fans during his first few albums were incredibly shocked by the Bowie-esque turn he made on this disc. The songs are slickly produced, catchy as hell, and full of great hooks. An industrial edge is nowhere to be found anywhere on this disc. What repelled some fans is what actually proved to me that Manson was much more than the sum of his image or antics. He showed that he actually did care about his art, and was willing to alienate the fans who didn't "get it" (in many ways, this album was similar to the approach that Prince took with "Around The World In A Day". It was designed to weed out those that were only into it for the whole shock rock thing). Mechanical Animals was, once again, something of a concept album (with a much looser connection. The songs stand apart much better than anything on Antichrist). This time, Manson created the character of Omega, a kind of exaggeration of himself in the guise of a glam rocker. This disc explored the flip side of the coin expressed on the previous album: that of the cult of celebrity as a way of hiding from the serious problems in our culture. We create idols, tear them down and then rebuild them when we need another fix. As he states in "The Dope Show": "...They love you when you're on all the covers, but when you're not they'll love another". Our culture is all about instant gratification, and is designed to keep the masses in line: "you and I are underdosed and we're ready to fall/ raised to be stupid, taught to be nothing at all".

Look, I could continue to cite why I think MM is actually one hell of an artist. I could analyze the murk of Holy Wood: In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death", or the over-the-top rock burlesque of Golded Age Of Grotesque, but I'm not going to change the minds of people who don't like his music. It may not be your cuppa tea, and that's fine. Don't assume, however, that just because you don't like it it has no worth, or that the people who listen to it must have no taste. My musical taste spans everything from Coltrane and Miles to Beethoven to Audioslave. I find value in many different types of music, and I won't make assumptions about what folks find of value in an artist that I don't know much about. Thanks if you actually took the time to read this whole post. Mainly, I just wanted to give an answer to Lennon's question.

Musically I think he is pish, but he put the shitters up White America for a while and I'll always have respect for him for that

silentflute said:

That did not really happen, the incident you're referring to was a parody from The Onion.

JediMaster said:

Like you,I listen to all types of music--if you're going to do it ,do it well--and that's not entirely subjective.Just to give you an example--I'm not a Bowie fan,but that doesn't mean I don't respect him for the artist/visionary he was.I can say the same of Tupac.
MM--that's a whole diffrent story.Hard to respect someone who walks around just quoting and trying to imitate their idols.The effect is this: that person becomes a parody --in essence he becomes the things he claims to rebel against.

Tom said:

If that's the case, then it just further proves my point.

silentflute said:

DO elaborate.

silentflute said:

I strongly disagree and I'm skeptical of whether anyone who says that has actually listened to his lyrics.

JediMaster, that post was on point. I agree with everything you said. I also liked Mechanical Animals the best. It showed he could be a versatile artist and I'd like to see him come back with a few more reinventions. Golden Age of Grotesque was a major improvement over Holy Wood but I'd like to see more of the orignality I know he's capable of.

The Onion parody.

Mechanical Animals was Manson's crowning achievement. That album made my best-of top 10 list that year. (The same can't be said for NewPower Soul, ha ha.)

silentflute said:

Music IS an entirely subjective topic. It's not math; there are no right and wrong answers. You stated your opinion, but it's not absolute. I happen to totally disagree with everything you've said. You've reduced MM down to someone that "walks around just quoting and trying to imitate their idols" when he's a lot more complex than that. I don't think you understood anything Jedimaster wrote.

Jedi,u're missing the point.I have no problem with acts using their image to sell something--that's part of marketing.The folks u mentioned all had something to offer --meaning a quality that made the music unique.As for originality--u and I both know --it's all been done.The pioneers were back in the dayfrom the 80's on it was about creating a unique stamp to that hybrid.

Well, I disagree. You know I respect you alot, so this isn't an attack at all. I do think Marilyn can be derivitive, but I think he also crafts everything in such a way that it is very thought-provoking, as well as incredibly entertaining.



Sure,it's true with every big act,but that doesn't make it not stupid.When you're a teenager you go thru that kinda thing--that's a given.But when you're in your late 20's and you're still doing that--get help.

Sure. But I was never one of those folks who did that. My point was that the fans who do that kinda thing don't automatically invalidate the artists. I see folks at Prince concerts wearing their 80s puffy shirts too. Every artists has fans who are just a bit off. I think the more flamboyent the artists (as in the case of Manson and Prince) the more weirdos you are going to attract. This doesn't invalidate what the artist has accomplished.

You're believing in a broad picture painting.Charles Manson is known for his crimes,Marilyn Monroe is known for being the hollywood bombshell that she was.I know I don't consider C.Manson a "celebrity" in any way shape or form.He's simply a twisted fuck whose crimes were so heinous that the press covered it in a big way. His story serves as an example and reminder that there are twisted individuals out there.Yes,people know who he is and should know about what he did--it's a cautionary tale .I don't know anyone, personally, who sensationalizes C.Manson.

Well, this I stongly disagree with you on. I see Charles Manson T-Shirts and the like all the time by stupid kids who think its cool. Guns N Roses covered one of his songs. For that matter, look at every story in the last few years about murderers. Jeffery Dahmer was discussed ad naseum (there was even a set of friggin serial killer trading cards).



Once again--he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before(and BETTER, I might add)


Well, this is a subjective opinion. I think he's saying it in a way that is fresh and interesting. Again, this is just a matter of aesthetics

Like you,I listen to all types of music--if you're going to do it ,do it well--and that's not entirely subjective.Just to give you an example--I'm not a Bowie fan,but that doesn't mean I don't respect him for the artist/visionary he was.I can say the same of Tupac.
MM--that's a whole diffrent story.Hard to respect someone who walks around just quoting and trying to imitate their idols.The effect is this: that person becomes a parody --in essence he becomes the things he claims to rebel against.

Well, I don't agree that he only goes around quoting his idols. He certainly has borrowed from them, but I don't think that he only mimics them. He has blended elements from Bowie, Pink Floyd, Alice Cooper, Jim Morrison and lots of other artists, but he is still very distinctive from them.

Its cool man, I know you don't dig him. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on him. Certainly, he is an aquired taste, and he just won't do it for everyone. I was just trying to explain why I like him, and why I feel he is, indeed, and artist.

As always, its cool having a discussion with you. Actually, this has to be one of the few times we've strongly disagreed, eh?

Just read my last post, and realised that I say "well" way too much!

silentflute said:

If you believe that article from the Onion, then there's something wrong with your brain.

EvilWhiteMale said:

I posted that on another thread, and people actually took it seriously. That was pretty amusing .

On a serious note, I don't know why so many people are so hard on the guy. It's not like he's Britney Spears. He actually cowrites/writes songs! Give the man credit where credit is due. People like to claim that his shocking persona sold records (and not the music) and now that he's no longer shocking, people stopped buying. Well, that's news to me, considering his last one debuted at No. 1. Marilyn Manson is seen as a gimmick, because he didn't change his image at a Madonna-like pace.

I don't mind people not liking Manson for his music and image, that's a matter of opinion. But some people have such dumb reasons.

Personaly, I like the image, but most of all I like the music. He's able to change in every album, but not deviate from the formula that works.

Question is can he make it past 5/ 6 albums? Will he be able to achieve his previous success or is he a washed up has been? Sure, in the 90s he was able to have something fresh and new to say, but can he really do it in this new century, aren't his fans just fooling themselves that he has any longevity.
Pretty soon he'll only be some freakshow Vegas act.

morningsong said:

Well, people said the same thing about Prince. He's been declared a has-been more times in the last decade than I care to count. Now, he's back on the chart. Personally, I really don't care if MM is making big hits or not, as long as I'm still enjoying his work. In fact, there are plenty of acts that have long ago fell off the charts that still produce great music. Being a hit maker isn't the only gauge for success.

EvilWhiteMale said:

As I stated above---if it didn't really happen,thatfurther proves my point.
The person that wrote it was obviously making a comment on how his whole shtick is about going out of his way to offend --in his interviews,videos and concerts--just for the attention.

Furthermore,It wouldn't be hard to see MM doing something like that in the near future,when no one's buying his albums.

Next.

JediMaster said:

You do have a point about the knucklehead kids with the manson t-shirt(it feels like forever since my high schoold days).I'd like to hope most of em out grow it and get some sense.

An yeah,i think this is the first time we disagreed on something.



FYI,when i was talking about folks in their twenties imitating their idols--i wasn't refering to you.

morningsong said:

Well, so far he's still selling out shows and getting #1 albums. I'd say he's doing okay up to this point. I guess we'll see.

JediMaster said:

Actually I was being a bit sarcastic. Though his music doesn't inspire me, if that's what you are in to then more power to you. But why shouldn't he have to measure exactly like you know who in the scheme of things. Though MM has enjoyed a success that few "artist" ever get to enjoy, I doubt he'd have the longevity that only a chosen few have had the privilege to relish, but he made his mark and I guess that's all that counts, too bad P isn't given the same respect around here.

Lennon said:

Coming from people who are supposed to be knowledable of"music" there sure is alot of immature opinions floating around.Your really that arrogant to believe that your opinion is so grand,if you can't see, understand or you think" weird shock artist." its talentless or unoriginal with no substance.I love all music.And Manson has some good work out there,no denying it.Now on the flip side to that.Musicology I think is just another crappy Prince album to add to the list,starting at graffiti bridge till now.Michael Jackson, Thriller was it for me.Antichrist Superstar 96 ,Mechanical Animals 98,Holy Wood 00 are three strong albums whether you understand them or not.MJ, whats it been going on twenty years.I'm not even an Manson fan but those albums are really good.I remember 1981 I think my older sister went to go see Prince.When she came home I kind of remember her saying they booed prince right off the fuckin stage.That was when he opened for the stones and bombed.He was wearing a trenchcoat g string fish net in 81?You tell me who was into shock value?Every man has a right to there own opinion.And I respect that opinion if its an educated one.
[This message was edited Sat May 1 4:15:10 2004 by crazyhorse]

Some of you people ought to take these lyrics to heart then:

The Beautiful People

I don't want you and I don't need you-
don't bother to resist, or I'll beat you.
It's not your fault that you're always wrong-
the weak ones are there to justify the strong.
The beautiful people, the beautiful people-
it's all relative to the size of your steeple
you can't see the forest for the trees-
you can't smell
your own shit on your knees.

There's no time to discriminate,
hate every motherfucker
that's in your way.

Hey you, what do you see?
Something beautiful, something free?
Hey you, are you trying to be mean?
If you live with apes, man, it's hard to be clean

The worms will live in every host-
it's hard to pick which one they eat most
The horrible people, the horrible people-
It's as anatomic as the size of your steeple.
Capitalism has made it this way,
old-fashioned fascism
will take it away!

Hey you, what do you see?
Something beautiful, something free?
Hey you, are you trying to be mean?
If you live with apes, man, it's hard to be clean

There's no time to discriminate,
hate every motherfucker
that's in your way.

The beautiful people, the beautiful people (x4)

Hey you, what do you see?
Something beautiful, something free?
Hey you, are you trying to be mean?
If you live with apes, man, it's hard to be clean. (x2)

EvilWhiteMale said:

That coming from someone who lists FOX News and the New York Post as his favorite choice of news outlets.

Ubiquity said:

Ahh, Chuckles is back to start more bullshit. Will you ever be able to resist the urge?