An interesting followup to a previous thread: Margaret Cho posted the following intelligent commentary on her blog site.

"Of course I didn't see that shit, but supposedly Bette Midler said on Larry King that same sex marriage doesn't look like it would work because gay men are so promiscuous that they would just be cheating on each other constantly. That is a fucked thing to say, seeing that she was the one in the seventies performing in bathhouses. You would think that she would be championing gay rights more fervently. These statements are not much different than what Falwell and all the 700 club posse are saying, who say that homosexuality is like polygamy or bestiality. What the fuck, Bette? I mean, you are the Divine Miss M and all that, but what would you have without the undying support of gay men? Who do you think is your audience? I suppose it isn't as bad as "If God had meant gay men to exist he would have made Adam and Steve" - which supposedly Donna Summer never said, but it wrecked her reputation with her gay fans.

I mean, it is funny to joke about how gay men do have a defined sex culture that springs forth from a history of having to hide their identity in darkened alleys and unmarked doors that would open into speakeasy barrooms, where there was no speaking, just easy, and this legacy has followed us into this new century, but it is a bittersweet joke. It is about how when we are not allowed to be who we are, we take whatever we can get. Times have changed. Sexual predator is an identity we are desperately trying to shed. And then we have gay icons, who have built their empires on gay money distancing themselves in a 'safe' way from the fans who made them 'divine' in the first place making an argument against the fact that we are not human enough to have families, to have commitments, to have the same rights as all other Americans. Heterosexual Americans. Since when has the dick flailing, cruising, drug addicted, circuit boy/man/queen/hairdresser/std carrier become the symbol for all of gay culture? Admittedly, I am like that. But that is just me. And who is to take on the authority to claim that all gay Americans are just examples of this stereotype? I don't understand what Miss M is trying to do, besides sit on the fence of conservative ideals while still maintaining a bullshit posture that she has gay friends, so it is cool.

I have gay friends who are raising families, who are struggling to hang onto their kids, who stay home at night and rent "Beaches" time and time again because there is nothing else for them out there in the scene anymore. They have grown up and have babies and are living the lives that they have always wanted to live. They are loving each other and that is enough, just like it is enough for countless families all over the world. I have straight friends who will stay out all night, cheating on their spouses, doing drugs, dancing shirtless to house music. It is fun to make jokes about the status of gay culture and it being based on sex, drugs and Paul Oakenfold, but really, the laughter has two distinct beats to it. The first is the acknowledgement of this ever present social view of who we are, and the second is our own failed attempts at aligning ourselves to it, because when that is all you have to identify with, who else are you supposed to be?

I suppose that you are old school, Bette, where gay is one way, and that is that, and you sit in your mermaid tail and wheel yourself around in a wheelchair flashing your green sequins and judging the distance between yourself and your audience. I don't blame you for that, and all I am saying is that maybe you need to return to the sea now. You have spent enough time on the beach. Hey Bette! Remember what it was like to be wet, in the bathhouses, steamy with hope and laughter and wonder. before AIDS, when it was still chic to be a homo, and not deadly or sick or slutty or dirty? Why aren't you back there? I followed in your footsteps and now I don't want to anymore so, like that old story goes, do I have to carry you?"

You know, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Mags Cho likes to sing to the choir - she likes to champion "The Gays" no matter what, as if gay male culture can do no wrong, and all our weaknesses are due to our oppression and victimization, blah blah blah.

Never mind the fact that gay audiences are her bread and butter.

And that's great and all, but I think what Bette said on Larry King is a bit more nuanced than simply "making an anti-gay comment". I think Bette knows what she's talking about. I think she's been around gay culture longer than Cho, and I think she's at a point in her life and career where she can challenge her fanbase without worrying about it damning her career.

Hell, it's true - gay men are dogged by the stereotype that we're promiscuous and aren't able to settle down into a monogamous lifelong relationship. So what are we gonna do about it? I think this is what Bette was saying. On the one hand, yes, gay marriage should be legally available to same sex couples. On the other hand, when we get it, what are we gonna do with it?

I think Mags Cho needs to lay off and take a deeper look at what Bette Midler said, and look at her comments with the knowledge that Midler didn't say them with spite or contempt. I really think she was just trying to provoke some thought in her gay audience, and good for her.

While the commentary seems misdirected toward Bette (whose joke was a one-liner regarding promiscuity), every word Margaret Cho said is true. Good read!

I think Cho's way out of line and I think her response is as kneejerk as she's accusing Midler of being.

Margaret Cho rules and has it dead on! Bette is old school and consverative (not quite Bush Con and I don't think she'll get there either). Keep in mind Bette also made a very cryptic comment about the Britney and Madonna kiss being "irresponsible", which first led me to think that the queen of the bathhouses was coming off a bit anti-gay (even though none of those girls are gay). I really wonder what is going on in her head.

Totally right on about the Donna Summer thing too (she is either a fan of Donna or just really into gay culture). True, Margaret is preaching to the choir even though I don't think audience is mostly gay men. There are a lot of young people and women that dig her. I love her and I'm a straight guy but also a liberal so maybe I'm baised. I Bette if Margret had seen the same "Access Hollywood" clip that I did, she would have added it to her paragraph.

CinisterCee said:

I didn't see the interview (apprently neither did Cho) so it is hard to tell if it is a joke considering we can't hear the tone in her voice or see her saying it. Something tells me if Prince fans (who don't give a shit about Bette either way) are talking about this in so much detail I'm sure her fans must have comments about it too. She will probably have to respond to this soon if the mainstream media picks up on it more.

Bathhouse Bette knows firsthand how gay men "can be" so she can say whatever she wants. I say yes to gay marriage because that legal document will most certainly make gay men think twice before cheating. Sanctity of marriage or costly divorce, one of the two will strike a nerve.

It's easy to single out gays because they are a minority but looking at the bigger picture shows us all that hetero couples are just as guilty if not more.

spellcheck edit
[This message was edited Mon Jan 5 21:52:56 PST 2004 by marcdeondotcom]

Without weighing in on the issue of Bette v. Cho, I just wanna say that bitch can WRITE, DAMN!

Perhap Bette is beyond trying to win over gay people, she seems to have befriended plenty of gay people.

Like someone else on this thread mentioned, I didnt see the interview, so I dont know where she's comin from with those remarks.

She could be just speaking very frankly.

My peers and I are critical of the gay community at times, but if a straight person were to repeat some of the things we said they would probabbly be labeled as a homomphobe.

I just want to throw out there that a person can be supportive and critical of a thing at the same time.

It can happen.

Really.

Anxiety said:

As Prince fans, we've made a career for him based on this principle.

ohh...and Margaret hasnt made *her* reputation w/ perpetuating homosexual jokes...and korean jokes for that matter...



i've been annoyed by Cho for sometime now...ever since she lost her show...she seems very bitter and it has cooled her humor...

[This message was edited Mon Jan 5 21:51:03 PST 2004 by marcdeondotcom]

The 'right' to marry has absolutely no basis in gay citizen's behaviour. The bottome line is not whether a gay man is likely to cheat or not. It is the fact that some U.S. citizens (who pay taxes, vote, add to the economy through work and consuming, etc.) are being treated VERY differently due to sexual choices. I am positive we would be in an uproar if marriages between blacks and whites were not legally available. I fail to see a difference here. Bette is taking the stance of "well, it doesn't matter because they'd all cheat anyway". Maybe that is true and maybe not. But it is certainly irrelevant. After all, the current divorce rate is already over 50%. Can gays mess it up any more? The mixing of religion and state is supposedly unethical, so why not with this issue as well?

Maybe (for the benefit of the doubt) Bette was making a statement from the perspective of one who has seen her close friends die of AIDS specifically because of their promiscuous behaviour. Maybe she feels like its time to grow up. If that is the case, she should have made it more clear though.

Tron...love that avatar

I think its fairly obvious that Bette was making a joke at the expense of her fans, most of whom are quite aware that she is being facetious. Margret, I think you're great, but you need to take a

I've been in theater for years, so I know LOTS of gay men. Most of them make jokes like this all the time. Likewise, my ex-wife is a self-proclaimed "fruit fly", who spends most of her time around gay men. If I had a dime for every time she made jokes like this to her friends, I'd be rolling in the dough. Promiscuity is a very real part of gay culture, even though many gays hate it. Does this mean all gays are like that? No. Does this mean that gays shouldn't have the right to marry? Absolutely not! Gays should be afforded the same rights as anyone else.

As for Bette's comments about the Britney/Madonna kiss as "irresponsible", I can't conceive how that is, in any way, a homophobic comment. Quite the contrary, really. Maddy and Britney are NOT gay, so therefore they did the kiss as a publicity stunt. It was "irresponsible", since they did it to tittilate.

SassyBritches said:

I could be wrong on this but it seems like maybe that comment was just an extension of her thoughts on marriage in general. Maybe she thinks the institute of marriage isn't the greatest idea because people cheat and divorce and by extension of that she thinks tha gay marriage is not a good idea. Just a thought. I'm not much of a fan of Margaret Cho or Bette Midler. All I remember about Cho is that she did this bit about a vibrator once. It kinda scared me.

VoicesCarry said:

that's where she should have stopped.

but she went on to say...



immediately followed by...



what exactly does Margaret Cho think Bette Midler was seeing in those bathhouses?



but anyway, that's where i stopped reading. i like Margaret Cho (and i like Bette Midler), however, the LAST person i want to hear political commentary from is a celebrity.

and as celebrities go, stand up comedians are absolutely THE LAST PEOPLE in entertainment whose opinions i give a damn about. i know Bill Mahr and Dennis Miller have turned it into quite the career path for themselves, but them notwithstanding, i'm not going to listen to political "thought" spewed from the mouth of a group of people that's above only CIRCUS CLOWNS and RADIO DJ's on the show business ladder.
[This message was edited Tue Jan 6 10:55:34 PST 2004 by AaronAlmighty]

Transcripts of the Larry King show are available to anyone with a computer so I don't know what Cho was on about addressing the issue without actually checking the statements made, but here's an excerpt:

MIDLER: It's a real dilemma, but I think it's a dilemma to a lot of people. I don't think it really hurts anybody. I think -- I think -- to tell you the truth, my -- my -- many, many, many of the homosexual men that I know -- I can't speak for the women because -- the way I feel -- the women, they can look at each other from across a crowded room, and suddenly, they're mates for life. You know, they -- you know, they'll go out for a Coke, and they'll just be, you know, move in, and that'll be the end of it. But gay men, they like to -- you know, they like to move around. They like to have -- you know, they're -- that's part of it. That's part of the fun of being a gay man. So if they're married, does that mean they're not going to cheat, they're only going to be with one...

KING: Well, that's what they say, they want to make the commitment.

MIDLER: They want to make the commitment...

KING: Why shouldn't society let them make the commitment?

MIDLER: Well, it's interesting.

KING: That's what they're saying.

MIDLER: It's very interesting. I'm really wondering how -- what that commitment is going to be about.

Is Margaret gay?

very good question, and it's one that a lot of gays (and gay activisits) need to actually think about. seriously think about it, rather than immediately yelling out "me too" when it comes to rights. the "me too" part is important, but more important is understanding what they're asking for. i wonder if a lot of people do... i've already read news stories about some of the earliest participants of "civil unions" in divorce court trying to decide who gets what.

Jestyr said:

Larry King sounds more pro-gay marriage then she does! Margret was right on. The woman is questioning gay marriage becuase she thinks that "many, many, many" gay men won't be able to commit. She even says that she doesn't understand the women but thinks that they can be together for life. What???

I think that gays know what they are getting into. Marriage! They want what everyone else is getting and the same protection in legal matters that we get when we marry. What's to question. I seriously think, and I don't know for sure, that she is getting older and thinks in very sterotypical terms (not that she has ever been PC). I seriously think that she might not think much of the idea of gay people as equal and only loves them so much becuase they are her fans whil somone like Margret defends them politically. Not to say that Bette by any means has to be an advocate for gay rights but if she leans the other way I guess she can expect a backlash for her beliefs, which might be silly but it happens. ]

JediMaster said:

She didn't make that clear at all and I highly doubt that is what she meant. I don't remember excatly but part of the irresponsible part I think had something to do with Britney's age and her influence of young girls. I highly doubt that "Access Hollywood" has transcripts. I just think that she is growing older and less tolerant (or maybe she was never tolerant at all). When I heard it I just thought it was very anti-lesbain and suggested that Britney's kissing Madonna was somehow "a lesbain recruiting call" aimed toward young girls and Bette didn't like it. Could be wrong.

VinnyM27 said:

hey, i loved the kiss, and i'm gay, but it was irresponsible.


2 women (no wait, 3), 20 years apart in age, are kissing on TV to be titilating, not because there's any love or passion between them.


then again, i'm not one that subscribes to the theory that every behavior needs to be the responsible actions of a role model.

okaypimpn said:

Margaret is very confusing. She condsiders herself part of the gay community and is proud to call herself a "fag hag," but I have heard her talk about men romantically. She could be bisexual. I read somewhere that she was, but it was more like gossip

Anxiety said:

Indeed - hell, if ANYONE is gonna know how promiscuous we gay men CAN be (*note:not 'are') then surely its someone who worked the infamous American gay bathouses of the (dare I say it - hell yeah!) promiscuous 70's.

I think she's been taken outta context somewhat and people like Cho should take the dick outta their azz, n lighten up a little.

But then again - perhaps that's the whole point - I dont know HOW Cho said this, so it could have been in a jesting, digging way - then again, it could have been in a: 'Im championing gay rights, vote 4 me' kinda way.

Who knows. Who cares?

It's Bette frikkin Midler fer Chrissakes!!!

Janfriend said:

well judging from that vibrator bit I saw her go on about some years ago the girl likes men. Her bit was about how she went to her high school reunion so that she could sleep with this guy she liked when she was in high school but instead she just ended up doing her vibrator.

I wonder if I should be concerned that my 2 favorite orgers TOTALLY disagree with me on this one...after reading the transcript, I feel like Cho is at least admirable for the fact that she's not afraid to say Bette has a shitty attitude for someone who has made much of their living off the gay community.

Straight men are fucking whores too, and the vast majority of them cheat on their wives at some point. Just sayin'.

derek said:

I don't.

Gimme back the JD one.

NOW!

I remember reading the comments Midler made and it seems that her comments have been a bit stretched.

To call the comments ANTI gay is taking things too far. I agree with Anxiety.

Her comments have been taken out of proportion by people with long toes.