Bare with me here,
Madonna has been regaurded a some type of great influence in pop music/culture, right?
Throughout her career she's used every imaginable trick to stay relevant, which I applaud her for; she does it very well. For a large part of her career she's used sexuality to get a point/message across. And that point/message is valid and something that I agree with, but I'm starting to question if she actually succeeded in getting that point across.
The generation that grew up listening to her (Britney, Christina, Jessica, ect.) has praised her endlessly, but did that generation get the point she was trying to make?
Seems like the only thing they got was "it's okay to dress like a whore". They're dressing provacatively but do they really get what Madonna did?
It seems like she's the one who started the whole "dress like a whore and you'll get attention" era, it also seems like she didn't do well in getting her point/message across, which makes me start to question her so-called genuis...

She was daring and did things people were afraid 2 do. She pushed alot of buttons and become the voice 4 a lot of people, especailly women and gay men, that's what made her famous.

Madonna isn't afraid to be a smart, sexual woman and say what she thinks. She rarely lets a chance go by to speak her mind. Her genius lies in her ability to remain popular and relevant in an industry that discriminates against independent (and now, aging) women who want to control their own career trajectories. She is (I believe) the only woman to currently run a major label, and she's extremely business-savvy.

A good example of why such an ethos is so important would be Kelis. Label told her to lose weight. She did it, slimming herself down to what is deemed "sexy" but I liked her when she had some flesh on her bones. Madonna would have simply told them to fuck off. She calls her own shots.

And she does it while making incredible pop music (well, that's my opinion, but there you are).

And Marilyn Monroe deserves the credit for starting the whole "dress like a whore and get attention" era. Madonna hardly invented that.

Actually, some could argue Josephine Baker was responsible for it, but in the American psyche it's Monroe.
[This message was edited Sun Dec 28 17:19:58 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

Her impact is a great ability to rip-off every artist she can & not except the fact that she is no longer relevant but a saggy faced ole has-been who should be workin the Vegas circuit.

I mean how sad was that Britney duet
And the really sad recent MTV publicity stunt

She's now in the process of being taken to court for ripping off some artists work for her 'hollywood' video, some things never change

http://antimadonna.ms11.net/

This site is good & details MANY of the similarities in M's & other's work!!!

Oh 4got 2 mention the fab GAP ad
[This message was edited Sun Dec 28 18:01:17 PST 2003 by kremlinshadow]

Madonna has opened the door, via her pop star status, for serious discussion of things that "you just don't discuss"... in the media, in sociology, in philosophy, in politics, in entertainment, etc.



simple as that. i'm not going to bother listing out examples, because they will invariably be lost on those who will come to populate this thread.

It's not very far to always list Madonna by her some of poorest subjects (the Britneys). If nothing else, Madonna opened the door for dance pop music to be taken more seriously. While Madonna's sound is and was a combination of a lot of other people, you have to admit that once Madonna makes it OK, a lot of people follow (for better or worse). I've never thought of Madonna as just image and just being shcoking. I think those that actually have her albums (some which are more worthy than others) understand what a great songwriter and producer she is (despite only so-so vocals most of the time). People that don't understand that impact Madonna has had on music and not just pop culture are mostly music snobs and the only women they take seriously in music are hairy legged folk artists (not that there is anything wrong with them either).

In the 80's she was homogenised version of Deborah Harry for dummies
In the 90's she looked to Bjork to rip off and water down (and this is where she remains, in limbo, or is she loking to Britney?? maybe she will go full circle ? )

twink69 said:

I think you give both Debbie and Bjork (who I like a lot) way too much credit.

twink69 said:

Uh, yeah, because writing Bedtime Story means Bjork defined Madonna's 90's output.

VoicesCarry said:

The funny thing about the title track is that it doesn't reflect the album at all, which is much more R&B based. I would go as far as saying that Bjork was an influence on "Ray of Light" to some extent (both "Candy Prefume Girl" and "Mer Girl" are very Bjorkish). As far as Blondie, there are tones of Debbie in Madonna's early demos and a little on the first album but then it kind of stopped as Madonna was way more poppish than Blondie ever was was.

ripped off Bjork? she had her write one song for her, and then had a semi-follow up in the semi-same vein in I Want You. neither song went anywhere, and she quickly headed back into the adult contemporary phase she was in the middle of with Evita, soon to be followed by a return to her roots with Ray Of Light (and don't be fooled, that wasn't the bold new direction for her that many thought it was. though it did lead the charge for "electronica" (for lack of a better word) influenced pop, it was the most "Madonna" of any album she'd recorded since Like A Prayer).

VoicesCarry said:

Oh that's just taking away from the streetwalkers and porn stars of the 90's you cant credit Bjork for that, Madonna made it acceptable in the 90's to prostitute yourself through tacky explicit lyrics (Erotica) & posing for a tacky porn book (Sex) - such an original and influencial thing to do

kremlinshadow said:

Yes, but Dangelo and Maxwell aren't sluts for appearing practically naked in videos, selling their sex appeal and writing sometimes tacky lyrics? Double standard...

And whatever you may think about Erotica, Ray Of Light still remains one of the best albums of the 90s.
[This message was edited Sun Dec 28 20:18:26 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

kremlinshadow said:

well it was pretty original. has any other mega-star done a coffee-table book of nudes and sexual fantasies?

AaronAlmighty said:

Thankfully not Michael Jackson.

AaronAlmighty said:

It's not an original idea full-stop, Check your local newsagents top shelf. Metal backed or soft-backed it's all the same, but buttering it up as a 'coffee-table book' it's still a cheap nasty porn book!!

VoicesCarry said:

Ray of light was a William Orbit album as I see it

lovebizzare said:

You go first.

kremlinshadow said:

even so, what other super-celebrity has done this at the height of her fame, and of her own doing?

If my comments look familiar,it's because I have made this point numerous times...Britney,Christina and all the other so-called pop "divas" just don't get it.They're just being sleazy for the sake of being sleazy.There's no drama,no irony,no humor and no message they're trying to convey.Back in the day,Madonna was making a statement.She was breaking down taboos,destroying stereotypes,proving that sex can be liberating,and basically just "breaking all the rules I didn't make" (as she says in "Human Nature").She was making people confront things that they didn't necessarily wanna deal with.She was making fun of America's conservative views on sex.I like her whole "shake up the system" attitude from this period but sadly,there is nobody else in pop music who is going to take it to the next level.


Apparently,nobody seemed to learn from Madonna,but that's not her fault.It just shows how shallow and un-original today's pop scene has become.Britney,Christina and the others just appear half-naked in magazine photo shoots,make a few "naughty" comments,and they assume they're making a huge impact on pop culture.Whatever.

twink69 said:

Oh please,give me a break!

With all due respect to Debbie Harry and Bjork,Madonna did NOT rip them off.She has done things that those artists wouldn't DREAM of doing (musically and otherwise).

VoicesCarry said:

kremlinshadow said:

a Prince fan complaining of "tacky explicit lyrics"?

DavidEye said:

Yeh but Prince does it in such a better way that's not tacky - Madonna just appears 'tacky' with everything she does.

Mind you I have to say I did like her 'Justify my love' which she co-wrote with Lenny!! Oh blow me down with a copy of A certain sacrifice, I almost 4got - that was another song she claimed to of wrote but turns out she was trying to rip-off Ingrid Chavez for her songwriting credits & make out she wrote it... Tsk

VoicesCarry said:

"Yes I have but it's a children's book. Ye He!"

kremlinshadow said:

Jay-Z recently sampled "Justify My Love" and guess what..Madonna's writing credit was still there! Just becuase Ingrid Chavez...starfucker of the ninties, wrote part of the song doesn't mean that she wrote the entire thing. And no one thinks that "Justify My Love" is Madonna's best written song and so far that has been the only song that someone has claimed she hasn't written (and it appears that she did write it anyway).

DavidEye said:

VoicesCarry said:

DavidEye said:

Britney and Christina haven't the faintest idea of how to write a great pop melody. Christina has some songwriting ability, but Britney? Forget it!

As far as America's conservative views on sex... why is the porn industry so huge? Hmmm. I read an article a while back, it was more like a commentary about how Britney personified the way we deal with sex in America. Use it to sell, but don't talk about it like it's a natural thing. Pretend it's not there, even though it's everywhere...

Madonna said fuck that! When her sex book came out, yeah people were like, "Oh my God, why is she doing this?" but it sold out at stores, didn't it? Sure it's no different than any other erotica book out there, but instead of being coy and teasing she went for it. When is Britney gonna put out? She borders on soft porn already.

But like others have said, that's not all it's about. The sexuality is beside the point. Sure that's all these youngins have learned from her, and it's too bad. Madonna can write great pop melodies, she can be cutting edge yet still accessible to a wide audience. She has worked on her voice and now she can play some guitar. I give her mad props.

I always crack up at the Madonna haters. She may not be the best in her craft but you can't say she's not original. She's a perfect pop princess and Prince could take a lesson or 2 on her business savvy. If he had 1/10th her skill in this area he'd blow the roof off the phucker.