SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Ure biased though being a friend of Dorothy's.
Im not a Madonna hater but I think she's given far too much credit for what in turn she is basically recycling.

VinaBlue said:

I don't understand why people call her music "unoriginal". Sure it's pop, but it's damn GOOD pop. Some of her songs are really dazzling (Like A Prayer, Ray Of Light, Secret, Holiday in its minimalistic simplicity) or simply gorgeous (Rain, The Power Of Goodbye). Even if she does use collaborators, this does NOT mean she isn't the driving force behind her music. You don't last 20 years in the business without having one clue about what you're creating and being really involved in it. If you've heard her talk, you know that she basically runs the show. This is one smart woman (her IQ is 140 I believe).

Madonna's best songs are ballads that have a dance edge. This is her specialty, and she has a corner on that market in my opinion. Oh Father, Keep It Together or Secret are excellent examples of her songcraft skills. She has a gift for melody, and you can trace an increasingly effective lyrical ability over her career. More importantly, her vocals make you feel the pain that haunts her best characters (Bad Girl, Oh Father, Till Death Do Us Part), and she's not afraid to be experimental, both lyrically (Bedtime Story) and sonically (Ray Of Light, some of Music).

Bedtime Story is perhaps her most underrated album. It's warm, stylish and probably her most seductive work (Inside Of Me, Forbidden Love).

I don't think very many people understood American Life, which was her most adventurous album yet. It failed commercially, but I think it had a lot of really interesting elements (the acoustic Madonna of Nothing Fails, X-Static Process, Intervention, and Love Profusion is truly wonderful). American Life, however, is one of her worst songs, a totally self-absorbed and dour parody of her image. It was unnecessary.

P.S. Did anyone like Mother & Father as much as I did? A lot of people hated it because her lyrics were too "childlike", but isn't that the point considering she's singing from the point-of-view of a 5-year-old girl (herself when her mother died)? Great beat and a killer chorus ("I've got to give it up"), though.


[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 13:51:08 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

VoicesCarry said:

Yes a total flop & what does she come out and do - displays a hot lesbo senario on MTV - she's just pure tack (including that fake english accent), it's always the way with her, if something dont go her way she just gets her tits out & flashes em for attention. But you know what those days are over as if the stretch marks around her mouth are any indication to go by Im sure the titties have gone the same way!!

That is not the action of a smart business savy woman - it's a cheap back-up
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 14:14:34 PST 2003 by kremlinshadow]

kremlinshadow said:

I really don't care WHAT she does as long as the music's good.

I don't think kiss/performance was done to sell the AL project. I think it was to effectively say "I'm back, I won't be taking things so seriously next time out and my next album is going to be pure dance pop." Throughout her career she has always been a forward thinker. Note even that the version of Hollywood she performed was a dance remix off the maxi. Subtle but important.

She has ALWAYS used her sex appeal and shock value to generate attention. Stars do this. Again, I'll say that talented MALES like Maxwell and Dangelo ALSO use their sex appeal (this includes stripping down) to promote themselves. If they had tits, they'd be showing them off, too. But because she's a woman and she's promoting herself with sexuality, this is somehow bad.

Prince used his eccentricities (and sometimes shock value) to promote himself. He always has. Does that annoy me? No, it only would if the music sucked. Then it would be a mere gimmick. Madonna, Prince and these other artists are not mere gimmicks.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 14:23:55 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

Well shes been able 2 outlast most female artist who came out at that time, knowing how 2 stick around beit controversy her music etc...

she gets alot of credit also 4 how she changes her look and image...but come on now Prince has been doing that alot longer yet never seems 2 get mentioned in that group...Bowie Madonna etc...


But hey I may not groove 2 her music, (sorry brotha David Eye) but more power 2 her...its a free world, well alot of it is~

DavidEye said:

excellent post. i've written almost the exact same thing over the last few years, dozens of times, but it usually falls on deaf ears.

i'll go you one further, though, and say that there really AREN'T any button-pushers out there these days, except for one: Eminem. if there is a "next Madonna" he is it. he has a fuck you attitude, and actually gets people discussing things that generally aren't discussed (or when they are, they're in hushed voices so as not to get too deep into the topic).

and the whold culture-vulture thing has been applied to him as well, but you know, there is no artform that BELONGS to ANYONE in particular. if there are people that think that people can't appropriate styles, etc., from other artists, then they might as well just ask all artists to keep their talents to themselves.

kremlinshadow said:

I only own 2 of her albums. That's hardly biased.

I'm not her biggest fan, she wouldn't make my top 10 favorite artists, but I'm willing to give her the credit she does deserve.

good term was used "basically recycling" nothing really new but she was the one 2 gain most from it yet adding another level and along the way learn 2 extract from what was going on around her 2 use it 2 better her movement. but was slick as well, and timing worked in her favor more times then not.

MTV was a solid foundation & proving ground 4 her as well as a good first marriage so 2 speak.

Its the basic U scratch my back and I'll scratch yours...all the way 2 the top of whats pop~ She had a impact... no matter if U like the road she took 2 get there...shes really been able 2 do it and better then alot of singers male and female.


But all this said...not into her but can respect the aspects of how she played the game.

MrLovesexy said:

changing one's haircut from year to year, doesn't really have that kind of impact, which is why Prince doesn't get mentioned as much. and his radical changes have been over spans of 5-10 years, usually, so it doesn't come off as him coming out with something "shiny and new" to show the public every year. the Prince of today is radically different from the Prince of 1980 or 1987 or even 1995, but it's a long evolution. people like Bowie and Madonna have successfuly employed style and image changes to impact what's going to be going on in pop culture 1, 2, 5 years down the line.

another reason Prince doesn't get any credit for this, is because his look has so often been completely ridiculous. it's not something that people are going to copy, except for a handful of people that show up at his concerts who feel an overwhelming desire to dress up in banana-yellow silk jumpsuits and do their hair up like Liza Minelli.

Jewel's "0304" album, I would say that's recycled crap. But Madonna adds new things to the mix. "Like A Prayer" is hardly recycled pap.

AND she basically helped repopularize dance music after the fall of disco. I've got to give her mad props for that. Along with Prince, MJ, and the other greats of course.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 14:47:11 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

VoicesCarry said:

I think American Life is, I believe, the opening salvo of "Madonna, Part III" much as Erotica was for the second overarching phase of her career. If you think about it, her 1983, 1992, and 2003 albums all have a very strong dance edge to them (revolutionary for the dance-pop genre, even), with a cool detachedness, that is, ironically, often tempered by a certain kind of warmth in places, in the lyrics and production).


all 3 are mish-mash albums that have (or will) propel the genre of dance-pop ahead by leaps and bounds. yes, of course, i know, she didn't invent any of it, but as always, she's made the waters safe for similar things to follow, and even allow them to go beyond it.


i do believe that she is a trend-setter in this way. she does pick and choose things from underground music and culture to appropriate into her work. but those aren't trends. for everything she plucks from the underground to shine her massive spotlight on, there are 10 other things she leaves alone to die the quick, natural deaths that they deserve. those thins she does use, are half-formed ideas that are never going to go anywhere beyond the underground, until she uses them. she MAKES them trends.

AaronAlmighty said:

Everyone bitched so much about Erotica back in the day (I love that record), but now you can see its influences popping up all over the place. Janet's All For You & The Velvet Rope, Kylie's Body Language (WOW, did Minogue have a copy of Erotica lying around during the recording process, or what?), and so on.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 14:54:16 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

haha...the banana-yellow silk jumpsuits would B a bit much... but he pulls off wearing them colors some how.

Prince may have been more out of the norm then, (not 2day or say the Pardae era etc) yet I do recall Bowie wearing and having looks that were far out on a different planet way back in the day...U don't forget something like that...lol

I think with cats like Bowie & Prince, it wasn't there desire 2 have these looks that were "pop" marketable... as it was a mere reflection of what was in them at those times.

As far as the hair cut thing I hear ya there...but I have seen shows and always heard things as basic as her hair or what fashion statement she was making or would B...etc So at least when it came 2 Madonna it was a big deal 2 alot of media types as well as her fan base who wanted 2 look like her.

MrLovesexy said:

yeah, i agree. with Madonna, it was accessible for the everyday person to emulate, style-wise. with Bowie, it was more about other performers emulating his style/fashion.

AaronAlmighty said:

Madonna's fashion sense was also modelled on her own tastes, especially in the earlier years. Her "thrift store" look was one she'd been using for a while. She'd been experimenting with different looks for years before that as well, especially in her modelling portfolio. Always image-savvy.

1982:







1981:





1979:





And as an early dancer (I just found this one interesting)


[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 15:53:49 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

And, interestingly enough, early imagery she would reuse later:

Like A Prayer, 1979:

From a 1979 series that recalls the Herb Ritts bathroom photos taken in 1990:


[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 15:57:53 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

The anti-madonna website is trash!

Madonna is beautiful...she caught my attention at age 9, I'm 25 now, and I loved her music, she is a great dancer/entertainer...he voice is like an angel, she knows how to push buttons and she's blurred the lines of sexy, intelligent and business woman ...she's markets and promotes her music like most would like too but are to egotistic to do so.

Madonna is a true Icon, who writes, sings, dances, acts and definite leader in whatever she does.

She inspired me to be more comfortable with who I am and not to worry about what others think or state about me.
She has a way of getting to where she needs to get with maintaining her dignity as a woman and artist!
Madonna RULES!

Yeh it's amazing - the street whore comes good story all over again (with regard to the pictures above)
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 18:06:39 PST 2003 by kremlinshadow]

VoicesCarry said:

Can't disagree with you on this one, 'Like a prayer' was the BEST work she ever done - since then all went downhill plop

MJ fans are so kooky

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

That's odd, I thought all gay men loved Madonna. I assumed it was some rite of passage or something

AaronAlmighty said:

Nope just proving a point that pushed your button that when the shoe is on the other foot you dont like it!!
Kinda ignorant a statement dont u think? considering it's a topic about Madonna & not Madonna fans!!
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 21:54:00 PST 2003 by kremlinshadow]

VoicesCarry said:

Thank you, VoicesCarry, for posting these beautiful shots.

kremlinshadow said:

What did you say when Prince appeared on this show in 1991,wearing ass-less pants and having his "Game Boys" get on top of him at the beginning? Any fool can see that the VMAS are supposed to be wild,crazy,sexy and controversial.This ain't the Oscars,you know.

kremlinshadow said:

The fact that we're on this site,still discussing Madonna TWENTY YEARS after her debut album,well that just shows what an incredible impact she has made,and continues to make.

So,go ahead and pull out those Madonna CDs you've got hiding in your closet.We know you're really a diehard fan
[This message was edited Tue Dec 30 4:30:55 PST 2003 by DavidEye]

kremlinshadow said:

If it was a guy (Prince), you wouldn't be saying that. But since she's a woman, she's a whore . What was he, street pimp makes good?
[This message was edited Tue Dec 30 4:39:51 PST 2003 by VoicesCarry]

kremlinshadow said:

I got a newsflash for you...

NOTHING DONE IN POP MUSIC IS UNIQUE!

So,stop all this crazy bullshit about how Madonna is just "recycling" what's been done before.I want you to look at the current Top 40 charts and tell me what exactly is "unique,original,or groundbreaking" about today's music.The truth is,EVERYTHING has been done before,even the music that Prince does (yeah,I said it).Prince was heavily influenced by James Brown,Sly,Santana...you name it.

DavidEye said:

The only thing that's new is how they mix and match the basic elements. Prince was good at that. So is Madonna.

kremlinshadow said:

other foot? no. i actually like MJ. but i had been looking through your posts and noticed that you sure spend a lot of time talking about someone you don't like.

AaronAlmighty said:

Go on admit it your hanging on my every word

Love Camille Barbone xx

I have mad respect for Madonna. She came along and changed the game and she didn't take shit off anybody. She's a pioneer, whether you like her or not and much of the pop fluff on the airwaves today is due to her influence. She was sexy and sexual while still remaining classy and the wannabes today oughta take lessons.