independent and unofficial
Prince fan community
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > Michael Jackson's Invincible was released 20 years ago today
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 2 12>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 10/30/21 3:44pm

DonRants

Michael Jackson's Invincible was released 20 years ago today

Where did the time go? Geesh... here is a positive review of the album that came out two years ago. I remember the anticipation of waiting for an MJ album. One of my childhood pleasures...

https://medium.com/@Jonat...bbf7ae92de


Michael Jackson’s ‘Invincible’: 18 Years Later, a Full Review

1*SAE9l5XqZOoRMPj8Kig0wQ.jpeg
The primary album cover for Michael Jackson’s Invincible album, released October 30, 2001. (Sony Music/BMG)

On October 30, 2001 Michael Jackson released what became his final album of all new material during his lifetime: Invincible. The album, shortly after its release, became one of the most controversial albums of Jackson’s career, not for the music (unlike 1995’s HIStory: Past, Present and Future, Book I) but for the conflict between Jackson and his label at the time, Sony Music. At its peak the headbutting involved Sony ceasing promotion for Invincible shortly after its release (after Jackson informed the label he would not be renewing his contract) and Jackson going after the then head of Sony Music, Tommy Mottola, publicly calling him a “racist” and a “devil”.

1*SpLuUiDwU67ySSUdXR-dlg.jpeg
1*1iQfmX-Xi7Mp_-CjiJo05A.jpeg
1*1f_A01jxlTZbqZud4-iynw.jpeg

Invincible predictably got somewhat lost in the melee.

This is not to discount the album’s success or impact. Invincible lived up to its title, proving Jackson was just that, debuting at №1 on the Billboard Top 200 Albums chart and moving more than 366,000 units in one week. It also hit №1 in 12 other countries around the world.

1*wCashqiIT8nsE24kMJfoyA.jpeg
As Invincible stands perched at №1 in the United States and around the world, Jackson waves to thousands of fans in New York’s Times Square, before entering The Virgin Mega Store for his first ever record signing (November 2001).

Produced by Rodney “Darkchild” Jerkins, along with the majority of the album, the lead single You Rock My World notched Jackson yet another top 10 hit on the Billboard Hot 100 singles charts. This chart position gave Jackson his 28th top 10 hit in the United States. You Rock My World (initially called Rock My World) was nominated for a Grammy and featured Jay-Z in the official remix. The 13 minute short-film video for Your Rock My World continued Jackson’s history of longer, feature length film-styled music videos, and pulling huge stars to appear in them. In addition to Jackson, You Rock My World starred Marlon Brando, Michael Madsen and Chris Tucker.

The success of both the album and the lead off single proved that Jackson’s iconic style and musical formula was still viable and marketable in the 21st century and to yet another generation. Invincible gave Jackson №1 albums in the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s and the ’00s. By early 2002 Invincible had already sold more than 6 million copies, becoming Jackson’s fastest selling album ever (yes, it sold faster than Thriller). Invincible has to date sold more than 13 million copies worldwide. IFPIput the album as the №9 best selling album of 2001 (not bad for Jackson not having released a full album of new songs since 1995’s HIStory). In 2009, Billboard magazine readers voted Invincible the best album of the decade.

This year Invincible is all grown up and to celebrate its 18th anniversary, here is a track by track, and cumulative, review:

Track 1: Unbreakable — (Up-tempo) The King of Pop opens the album by reminding anyone that may have forgotten, or not known, that he is… well… unbreakable. It would have been nice if the track were a tiny bit faster and just a bit shorter (it clocks in at just under 6:30), but overall the song sounds awesome and works nicely as a 21st century version of Bad. The posthumous rap by the Notorious B.I.G. inserts brilliantly and marks their second collaboration (their first having been on This Time Around on Jackson’s 1995 album HIStory: Past, Present and Future — Book 1). Grade: B+

Track 2: Heartbreaker — (Up-tempo) This song is simply excellent. Utterly flawless, pop platinum. The song refers to a woman whose sole purpose is to break hearts and broke Jackson’s. In the chorus the King of Pop sings, “That girl, can’t take her, I should have seen it coming, heartbreaker.” There are parts in the song where you can hear Jackson beat...g the beat under Darkchild’s wickedly fast beat. The song is just brilliant. Jackson reportedly also wanted an unknown rapper on the album and the rapper chosen, “Fats”, is a perfect fit for this song. Unlike other tracks on the album (as you’ll read), Jackson’s vocals are clear, crisp and familiar on this song, and many of his vocal trademarks are well in place (there is a very clear “Ow!” at a key point in the song). Grade: A+

Track 3: Invincible — (Up-tempo) The title track to the album is not the ego-fest that one might assume it would be, the song is actually about a girl who won’t give Jackson her attention. “Even when I beg and plead, she’s invincible,” Jackson sings. The beat is incredible, although again, it wouldn’t hurt if it were a bit faster. “Fats” also raps on this track. Grade: B+

Track 4: Break of Dawn — (Down-tempo) This is a love song. This song, again, is perfection. Nothing could be added or removed to make it better. An oddity about this track is Michael Jackson does not (at least overtly) sing the chorus. He instead ad-libs around unnamed background singers who actually sing the chorus. Though it does not damage the song, it might have been nice to have Jackson sing the chorus. In the movie This Is It (in the video remake of Smooth Criminal), it shows the Break of Dawn café. Grade: A

Track 5: Heaven Can Wait — (Down-tempo) Yet another perfect love song. This song is about a girl Jackson refuses to leave. He sings, “Tell the angels no, I don’t want to leave my baby alone, I don’t want nobody else to hold you, that’s the chance I’ll take baby I’ll stay, heaven can wait.” This is another track on Invincible where Michael Jackson again, does not (at least overtly) sing the chorus. Again he decided to, at times, ad-lib around unnamed background singers who sing the chorus. Again, it might have been nice to have Jackson sing the chorus but it does not damage the song. The way Jackson opens this track is pure excellence, singing quickly, “You’re beautiful, you’re wonderful, incredible I love you so.” Grade A

Track 6: You Rock My World — (Up-tempo)

You Rock My World Music Video (Shortened Prime Time Version)

This was the first single from the album and charted as another top 10. The opening banter between Chris Tucker and Michael Jackson about whether or not Jackson could “get that girl” is nothing short of a hilarious. Simply put, it is a great song. Though many fans preferred a different lead single after hearing the full album, YRMW (song and video) covered so many different music, music video and live performance styles, that in hindsight, some fans may want to reconsider. After all, it introduced Jackson to an all new generation in a way that did propel the album to №1. There is an official Jay-Z remix. A particular favorite from this track, is how each instrument comes in as the track opens. Fairly rare for a pop song. The pace is a little slower than my liking for an up-tempo song but that’s just a personal preference. YRMW spent 20 weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. Grade: A-

Track 7: Butterflies — (Down-tempo) This was the third single from Invincible and charted at №14 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart (№2 on the R&B/Hip-Hop Billboard chart). This song is Jackson’s 37th top 40 hit. Butterflies spent 20 weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. There is an official remix that featu...rapper Eve. The song is beautiful and showcases Jackson’s epic vocal range. Despite this third single looking like it was going to be another major hit off the album, relations between Jackson and Sony had deteriorated so much by this point, no music video was filmed and this became the final single released from Invincible. Grade: A

Track 8: Speechless — (Down-tempo) For an album that spends so much time altering Jackson’s vocals, this song is the clearest and most pristine Jackson’s voice gets on Invincible. His voice is almost entirely uninterrupted by any kind of instrument for the first minute of the song (and the last 20 seconds of it). It starts off a capella and slowly builds from there. Speechless is beautiful and again utterly perfect. Jackson sings the song a capella again, in the This Is It film. Jackson said he was inspired to write the song following a water balloon fight with a group of children. Grade: A

Track 9: 2,000 Watts — (Up-tempo) 2,000 Watts is one of the most unforgettable tracks on Invincible. The bass is unreal, Jackson sounds nothing like himself and lyrically the song is all over the place, in a good way. This is another song on Invincible where Jackson does not sing the chorus, rather ad-libbing over studio singers who deliver the chorus. The opening line, “You may now apply your 3D glasses as we proceed…” makes one wonder how incredible the music video would have been for this track. Grade: A

Track 10: You Are My Life — (Down-tempo) This is where I feel like Invincible loses something. There is not anything particularly wrong with this song as much as it is entirely forgettable. It adds nothing to Invincible and on a 16 track album as highly anticipated as this one, any of the hundreds of songs Jackson reportedly recorded would have likely sat better in this song’s place. If You Are My Life is actually about Jackson’s children as some think it is, the song then becomes more compelling. It also gives perspective to lyrics like, “You took away the fear, and you brought me back to the light, you are the sun, you make me shine, more like the stars that twinkle at night.” Grade: C+

Track 11: Privacy — (Up-tempo) This is the only rock styled song on the album, and sees Jackson again teaming up with Guns N’ Roses guitarist Slash. In this song Jackson, over camera flashes, pleads for… well… privacy, and journalistic integrity. He sings, “Your cameras can’t control the minds of those who know, that you’ll even sell your soul just to get your story sold”. This is another song where Jackson sounds markedly different than he has on previous albums. It fits very well next to Jackson’s similarly themed songs like Scream, Tabloid Junkie and Leave Me Alone. The song could have survived a faster tempo as well, but overall it is very good. Since false, maligning stories about Michael Jackson are still just as prevalent as true stories, lines like, “Stop maliciously attacking my integrity” have aged well. Grade: B

Track 12: Don’t Walk Away — (Down-tempo) Don’t Walk Away is a love song where Jackson pleads with his parting love, “Don’t walk away, see I just can’t find the right thing to say.” The song is a bit ho-hum until about the 2:38 mark, when it changes pace. Jackson’s vocals change here, the beat gets a bit more intense and studio singer vocals come in, singing lyrics like, “Even though I had to let you go”, over which Jackson begins pleading, “Can’t you see, you and me, we will always be”, “Don’t you leave me” and “I won’t forget you girl”. Following her interview with Oprah, many fans began to think this song was written about his relationship and subsequent break-up with Lisa Marie Presley. In the interview, Presley says she divorced Jackson because he would not let go of people around him who Presley says she felt did not have his best interests at heart. Though the two divorced in 1996, in 1997, Presley was seen backstage at a tour stop with Jackson. They were filmed holding hands in his dressing room. Grade: B

Track 13: Cry — (Down-tempo)

Cry Official Music Video

Written by R. Kelly (who also wrote Jackson’s №1 hit You Are Not Alone), Cry was the second single released from Invincible, in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Written prior to the attacks Jackson sings, “When that flag blows, there’ll be no more wars”. The song is reminiscent of Man In The Mirror, with Jackson whispering as the last line of the song, “Change the world.” Some of his trademark vocal tricks are perfectly in place as the song ends, although they sound oddly slowed and muffled. Jackson is conspicuously absent in the song’s video. Jackson’s refusal to appear in the video is said to be the result of the then-internal conflict between Jackson and Sony that later became very public. Cry became a top 40 hit in six countries, including the United Kingdom, The Netherlands, France and Spain. Grade: B

Track 14: The Lost Children (Down-tempo) — A bit folksy in its sound, The Lost Children is about all the children that are missing around the world. In the song Jackson sings, “Let’s pray for all the lost children… wishing them well and wishing them home”. While some might consider the song a tiny bit corny, with the children’s choir toward the end and the sound of children playing in the forest, others will find the spirit of the song (particularly in the light of the constant reports of missing children all over the world) rare, needed and beautiful. This is another song on Invincible where Jackson’s vocals sound different as if slightly altered, though it doesn’t interfere with the quality of the song. Grade: B

Track 15: Whatever Happens (Down-tempo) — With Carlos Santana on the guitar and Michael Jackson tearing into this song unlike he does anywhere else on the album, this Whatever Happens is an inarguable standout. Even reviewers that were hard on Invincible all seemed to rave about this track. The song tells the story of a man engaged in some unnamed questionable activity with his girlfriend, who is extremely apprehensive about what they are doing. Jackson sings, “Everything will be alright, he assures her” and “preoccupied, she’s afraid, afraid what they’ve been doing’s not right.” And on the chorus he sings, “Whatever happens, don’t you let go of my hand”. Santana’s playing on the guitar adds an intensity equal to the intensity built by Jackson’s vocals as the track progresses. This song is unique and phenomenal. It has aged remarkably well. Grade: A+

Track 16: Threatened (Up-tempo) — If you missed the Thriller, Ghosts, Is It Scary Michael Jackson, you will enjoy Threatened… you’ll also enjoy it if you didn’t. Threatened opens with The Twilight Zone’s Rod Serling saying, “Tonight’s story is somewhat unique and calls for a different kind of introduction.” What follows is a beat that instantly goes absolutely berserk. The wild beat plays so intensely you can barely hear the words spoken by Rod Serling introducing Jackson, which include, “A monster arrived in the village”. The beat calms slightly as the King of Pop comes in with, “You’re fearing me, because you know I’m a beast, watching you when you sleep, when you’re in bed I’m underneath.” He taunts, “Half of me, you’ll never be.” Rod Serling delivers a rap (think Vincent Price on Thriller) pieced together from lines he spoke on the Twilight Zone. That part alone is phenomenal, easily a highlight of the track (it almost sounds better now than it did when it came out). Personally, this is exactly the track I wanted from Jackson at the time - and now. If Invincible was an effort to make people forget some of the weird, quirky parts of Jackson’s image and music catalogue (which is what it felt like at times), this song was a full about-face from the other 15 tracks assigned to that task. This song sits quite nicely next to, not only Thriller, Ghost and Is It Scary but some of Jackson’s other creepy tracks like Little Susie, Morphine and Blood on the Dance Floor. The theme of the song is noir, the beat is eccentric (toward the end it sputters and breaks up), Jackson’s vocals and lyrics are intentionally menacing — and if that wasn’t enough, the host of one of the weirdest shows of all time, bookends the track and raps for the bridge. The final line of the track, and of the album, is Rod Serling saying (over sudden quiet), “What you’ve just witnessed could be the end of a particularly terrifying nightmare… it isn’t, it’s the beginning.” Michael Jackson can be seen dancing to the instrumental of this track in This Is It, at the end of the re-done Thriller set. Grade: A

The challenge Invincible faced (being Jackson’s first album of any kind in four years and his first album of entirely new material since 1991’s Dangerous) was, it had to cater to the several different styles Jackson had dabbled in throughout his career up to that point, do it well and palatably introduce it to a new generation. It had to do this all while simultaneously pleasing previous generations of fans. Invincible accomplishes this, but not without a misstep or two along the way. A few more up tempo songs would have been nice and the absence or suppression of some of Jackson’s signature vocal techniques is a bit more than apparent (there are very few “hehe”s and “hoohoo”s, for example, as compared to Jackson’s previous albums). Overall though, Invincible is a brilliant piece of work, with each song tuned to pop perfection and at 16 tracks and more than 77 minutes, there is something on it for everyone, no matter which era or style one has enjoyed from the King of Pop. Invincible has also aged quite well. Jackson wisely did not conform to pop music standards at the time of production, leaving Invincible sounding just as fresh and distinctive as it did on the day it was released.

For such an impressive album, it’s a shame that Invincible eventually became a casualty of the war between Jackson and Sony at the time, particularly since they would later resolve their differences and release successful music in the future.

[Edited 11/1/21 16:23pm]

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 10/30/21 4:06pm

alphastreet

Ah the good old days! I remember the day well!
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 10/30/21 6:22pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

I remember a lot of talk from him saying Tommy Motolla was the devil. hahaha (Where's the lie?)

He was on MTV and other places promoting the album. It's, for me, my least favorite MJ album (when he was alive). I hate that it was his last while alive. It just never grew on me as much. I wish he'd recorded "Rock Your Body" instead of JT. Just seems like it'd have been more of a banger from MJ (although JT was no slouch with it).

Maybe I should just listen to it again, give it another shot.

Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 10/30/21 6:38pm

alphastreet

I like the whole album except for 3-4 songs. When it first came out, I was super excited to hear it, but it was the second or third listen that made me love the album in full and constantly play it
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 10/30/21 7:08pm

Free2BMe

Invincible is still the MJ album that I play the most.I actually let out a scream when I heard Butterflies. That song affected me THAT much! R&B radio LOVED Butterflies and YRMW, especially Butterflies. One female DJ actually said that Butterflies gave her “orgasms”.I remember a LOT of fans buying this album who had not bought a Michael album in years. A lot of people didn’t know it was out and when they heard the songs, they rushed out and bought it. FTR, this album bought a lot of R&B fans back into the mix. I wish that Mottola and Sony had not sabotaged this album. Taj, Michael’s nephew said Michael had so many plans for it. He already had plans for videos for songs- “Whatever Happens”, “Butterflies” and “Unbreakable” and/or “Invincible”.
LOVE this album!
[Edited 10/30/21 19:11pm]
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 10/30/21 7:43pm

alphastreet

At one point it was the album I played the most, in the first year or two. Now I just play it occasionally, have to be in the mood for it. I remember how much the album inspired me to write, and I wish shout and fall again made the album
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 10/31/21 1:50am

EmmaMcG

Ridiculously underrated album. I mean, I kind of understand why some people don't like it. There's a few too many ballads that kind of upset the flow of the album. And, as ever with post 80s Michael Jackson, there's a bit too much schmaltz. But remove a few of the lesser songs from it and you're left with a great 11 or 12 track album. As it is, it's a very good, if a little bloated, album. But like I said, remove the chaff and you have one of the best albums by anybody of the 2000s.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 10/31/21 11:26am

alphastreet

In 2009, invincible was voted as album of the decade on billboard
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 10/31/21 1:32pm

EmmaMcG

alphastreet said:

In 2009, invincible was voted as album of the decade on billboard


I'd guess that was more due to the fact that he died that year than anything else. Very good album but I can think of 5 just off the top of my head that were better.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 10/31/21 2:31pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

So I listened to it last night.

The first thing that hit me was how much is sounded like Nsync. Chris Kirkpatrick described their music as "dirty pop," which is where that song came from. Not surprisingly, Rodney Jerkins produced the title track for Nsync's Celebrity album. Songs like "Heartbreaker" with those background harmonies - I'm surprised Nsync didn't get the gig to sing on that, frankly.

However, considering the time frame in the music landscape, it's not surprising that Darkchild sound was all over the place. Everyone had a Darkchild record around that time. Toni Braxton, Whitney Houston, George Michael (with Whitney), Destiny's Child, Spice Girls, Brandy, J-Lo, Brandy & Monica, and Britney Spears, to name a few. Everyone tried to sound like a Darkchild production.

All that aside, Invincible is a good record. Not his best, but good. It'd probably still rank a little lower, for me, if I'm judging his while-alive records. He got a lot of flack for doing so deep in the New Jack sound for Dangerous, yet I think that's one of his most diverse and well-rounded records to date.

Invincible feels ... 'the same' through a lot of songs. There are similarities that go beyond just having a "sound" for a record. There's a gritty production to it that is also really slick and over-perfected. It's overproduced (the way people claim The Gold Experience is). Yet Invincible comes across more like a cross between COME and Chaos & Disorder. Maybe an overproduced, thicker and heavier sound was popular around that time, I don't know.

It's brash, balls to the wall, and slightly unbalanced. MJ isn't a tough guy, so for him to play that or come across with a hard sound feels a bit too much. Playing a role in a video is one thing, but to let that permeate throughout an album, it's not believable, for me.

I made it through "Cry," but didn't have time or energy to get through the last three tracks. But I will. I don't know how it was voted best album of the decade, but then again - it's Michael Jackson, and there's money and influence behind shit like that, for the sheer sake of promotion. And as Whoopi Goldberg said, "he's the gift that keeps on giving;" a critique of those who profited on his name after his death.

Dangerous, Bad, Thriller, and Off The Wall are better. Blood on The Dance Floor is spotty, but not quite as unstable as Invincible. At least BoTDF was angry Michael. That was something genuine in the moment. Invincible was some version of him that felt foreign.

The credits are interesting. Violinist Novi Novog is on the album. Tommy Vicari, which engineered and "produced" For You is on there. Even Brandy has a credit.

Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 10/31/21 5:33pm

Hamad

avatar

I’m not a fan of Rodney Douchebag I mean Darkchild’s production AT ALL, I secretly wished Dr Freezs handled the production along with MJ. In fact my fave songs from the album are all non-produced by Rodney.
Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future...

Twitter: https://twitter.com/QLH82
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 10/31/21 6:30pm

RODSERLING

I bought the album day 1, at the opening of my wreckastore. I was 15.
Gosh! I still remember the feeling of excitement, what I did the evening before, what I saw on tv, what my ( too high!) hopes were for the album.

I absolutely loved YRMW. I heard Whatever Happens on the radio that morning, and it was reassuring, a sure hit and classic to come in the legacy of MJ.

My first listening was meh. I thought Unbreak sounded like a Bad track, but it was too repetitive. And 6 guys to write that song, really?
I loved Butterflies, Speechless and Whatever Happens on the 1 st listening.
The other songs didn't impress me much. At the end of Threatened, when my homonym's voice faded, I thought " Is that really it? 4 years to wait for so much rnb crap? "

Sony AND MJ completely fucked up the promotion by not releasing Whatever Happens as the second single. It would have been a worldwide #1 smash hit, and Invincible would have been a huge seller for the Christmas season.

MJ didn't want to shoot any music videos, despite Sony begging him to do so.

Speechless would have been a worldwide hit too.
But no, for the third singles, MJ wanted Unbreakable, and Sony Heaven Can Wait.

They were both completely out of touch.

It was really easy to make the album a huge success. It will be always frustrating to me, all the promises made by MJ that were never fulfilled.

Maybe there's another dimension where they chosed the right singles and the album worked. Something cool like that never published award, made in advance :
https://www.catawiki.com/...ales-award
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 10/31/21 6:40pm

alphastreet

Yes I fell for “you ain’t seen nothing yet” too
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 11/01/21 1:38am

WhisperingDand
elions

avatar

Hamad said:

I’m not a fan of Rodney Douchebag I mean Darkchild’s production AT ALL, I secretly wished Dr Freezs handled the production along with MJ. In fact my fave songs from the album are all non-produced by Rodney.

Darkchild's production on this is like bootleg Timbaland.


Great album tho. "Whatever Happens", what could have been.

[Edited 11/1/21 1:40am]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 11/01/21 1:44am

Hamad

avatar

WhisperingDandelions said:



Hamad said:


I’m not a fan of Rodney Douchebag I mean Darkchild’s production AT ALL, I secretly wished Dr Freezs handled the production along with MJ. In fact my fave songs from the album are all non-produced by Rodney.

Darkchild's production on this is like bootleg Timbaland.



Great album tho. "Whatever Happens", what could have been.

[Edited 11/1/21 1:40am]



My introduction to Santana’s whistle talent, one of thee best intros ever.
Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future...

Twitter: https://twitter.com/QLH82
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 11/01/21 5:01am

OperatingTheta
n

A great and underrated album. It does suffer and sag a little in the second half with a cluster of plodding saccharine ballads, but I removed those and have a killer 11 track playlist. And 11 stellar tracks is more than enough.

*
[Edited 11/1/21 5:02am]
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 11/01/21 4:02pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

OperatingThetan said:

A great and underrated album. It does suffer and sag a little in the second half with a cluster of plodding saccharine ballads, but I removed those and have a killer 11 track playlist. And 11 stellar tracks is more than enough.


I listened to the last three tracks last night. And I agree with your overall assessment. It feels a bit bloated. Sixteen tracks, could probably be cut down to a dozen. Let the other 4 be b-sides or bonus tracks or something.

"Cry" is a typical Robert Pedophile Kelly ballad, but it's not special. It's no more special than "I Believe I Can Fly" (which is sappy beyond belief; I'd prefer "Gotham City"). "Cry" really is a plodding ballad, and never goes anywhere.

People sorta rave about "Butterflies," but I don't feel it quite that much. But if I had to whittle the album down, I may leave it on there.

A couple of songs could be paired down a bit, just trimmed. Just because there's 80 minutes doesn't mean you have to fill every second of it. Is it underrated? It's forgotten more than it's referenced and for most of the reasons listed in this thread.

As far as Darkchild - I don't mind his production, but it is pretty recognizable. Is that good? I don't know. Timbaland, noted in the thread, is the same. When he and JT produce something (whether for Duran Duran, Nelly Furado, or Madonna - three very different artists), it sounds like every other production. Very heavy under beat with overlaid mouth beat boxing, lotta Timbaland here and there talking his way into a paycheck (think Diddy circa Biggie years).

One thing I do like about Darkchild's past songs is the use of a piano as a hook, or at least having it upfront. We're so used to hearing synths everywhere, that even that electric piano sound or whatever was interesting. "If I Told You That" is a good example, as is "You Rock My World." But at this point, does it sound dated, or is it just really recognizable as a Darkchild production? Opinions vary.

Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 11/01/21 4:37pm

DonRants

I agree with what you guys are saying...had it been edited a bit..especially the slow songs...solid album.

The funny thing is I remember about two years (1999) before the album was released someone can come online (michaeljackson.net I think) and said he heard the album and he gave the same assesment...it was strong but had too many slow songs which he felt made it weaker....I always wondered why Michael included so many ballads..was it because he was getting older...or because his sole number one hit off History was "You are Not Alone"... any guesses?

Still though, I feel really sad when I think no more MJ albums and videos to look forward to...and that it is an incredible 20 years since Invincible..wow!

[Edited 11/13/21 6:49am]

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 11/01/21 5:45pm

RODSERLING

MJ wanted albums of 77 minutes, he was obsessed by this number.
The number of tracks was 16, because in the previous album, History, there were 15...
MJ wanted to hit louder at every release.

To me, 4 songs in Invincible were highly questionnable, and should have been replaced buly other tracks : YAMLF, PrivCy, Don't Walk Away and Cry.
Zll four sequencsd in a row, was the worst moment in MJ's carreer.

There are too many ballads in here because MJ in his 40's had hard time to write uptempo, and that rnb low/mid tempo was the most popular music at the time.
[Edited 11/1/21 23:50pm]
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 11/01/21 6:33pm

alphastreet

Maybe there were too many cooks in the kitchen and he was less reliant on his own songwriting on invincible
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 11/01/21 7:05pm

WhisperingDand
elions

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:


People sorta rave about "Butterflies,"

Sorta? People go bananas over "Butterflies". Myopinion on it is similar to yours, but it's undeniably a fan-favorite... not just a fan favorite, people who like it seem to really love it on a deep emotional level, and not just within this thread.

[Edited 11/1/21 19:05pm]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 11/01/21 7:06pm

WhisperingDand
elions

avatar

What about "One More Chance" from 2003? Was that the only post-Invincible material officially released before 2009?


Video came out after 2009, was solid:

https://www.youtube.com/w...owpIWQMd80


Seems like a good surmise of what he was trying to achieve on Invincible. Also easily the best of his R. Kelly collabs.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 11/01/21 9:08pm

alphastreet

I like one of the remixes of one more chance on the single, I guess mj was chasing the success of you are not alone by working with him
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 11/01/21 11:28pm

nextedition

avatar

WhisperingDandelions said:

What about "One More Chance" from 2003? Was that the only post-Invincible material officially released before 2009?


Video came out after 2009, was solid:

https://www.youtube.com/w...owpIWQMd80


Seems like a good surmise of what he was trying to achieve on Invincible. Also easily the best of his R. Kelly collabs.

I liked One More chance when it came out, but i think the song is too easy for an artist ike MJ.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 11/01/21 11:55pm

RODSERLING

WhisperingDandelions said:

What about "One More Chance" from 2003? Was that the only post-Invincible material officially released before 2009?



Video came out after 2009, was solid:


https://www.youtube.com/w...owpIWQMd80



Seems like a good surmise of what he was trying to achieve on Invincible. Also easily the best of his R. Kelly collabs.



There's of course The Ultimate Collection released in 2004 with some unreleased tracks post Invincible, or made during those sessions :

https://www.amazon.fr/Ult...B0002XH9Z4
The best out of it was by far We've Had Enough, the perfect mix between History and Invincible ( such as Xscape) :

https://youtu.be/XzvwgDhwp3I

We've had Enough could have been a worldwide hit, an all time classic if it was given the chance of a single, a music video, etc.
It would have been a fine replacement for Privacy or Cry!
[Edited 11/2/21 0:08am]
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 11/03/21 9:44am

RODSERLING

nextedition said:



WhisperingDandelions said:


What about "One More Chance" from 2003? Was that the only post-Invincible material officially released before 2009?



Video came out after 2009, was solid:


https://www.youtube.com/w...owpIWQMd80



Seems like a good surmise of what he was trying to achieve on Invincible. Also easily the best of his R. Kelly collabs.



I liked One More chance when it came out, but i think the song is too easy for an artist ike MJ.




Yes it's a song that was clearly not fitting the crowning of all his number ones on that compilation.
He clearly didn't go with a bang with it. A song like Xscape was perfectly fitting for it. I felt One More Chance like a big fuck to his audience ( he said one year earlier he would give up a song he didn't care of for that compilation)

With Xscape, he would have gone out of his contract with an audacious bang.
He would have had more money to pay his lawyers.
[Edited 11/3/21 9:44am]
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 11/03/21 3:28pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

RODSERLING said:

MJ wanted albums of 77 minutes, he was obsessed by this number.
The number of tracks was 16, because in the previous album, History, there were 15... MJ wanted to hit louder at every release.


Proof?

Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 11/03/21 5:44pm

alphastreet

TrivialPursuit said:



RODSERLING said:


MJ wanted albums of 77 minutes, he was obsessed by this number.
The number of tracks was 16, because in the previous album, History, there were 15... MJ wanted to hit louder at every release.


Proof?



Miss Cleo lol
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 11/03/21 10:36pm

bboy87

avatar

Songs that didn't make the album

Shout (later released as the b-side to Cry)
Fall Again (later released on The Ultimate Collection)

Beautiful Girl (later released on The Ultimate Collection)

The Way You Love Me (later released on The Ultimate Collection)

We've Had Enough (later released on The Ultimate Collection)

Hollywood Tonight (later released on Michael)

Another Day (later released on Michael)

Chicago/She Was Loving Me (later released on Xscape)

Place With No Name (later released on Xscape)

Blue Gangsta (later released on Xscape)

Xscape (later released on Xscape)

Thank Heaven

Chicago 1945 (originally recorded in 1984, re-recorded in 1999)

That

Pain

On My Anger

I Have This Dream

The One Truth
Belong To

Do You Love Me

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 11/03/21 10:40pm

bboy87

avatar

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 2 12>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > Michael Jackson's Invincible was released 20 years ago today