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Reply #60 posted 10/31/19 8:14pm

PeggyO

S2DG said:

Always loved Steve Miller but now I have another reason - https://www.youtube.com/w...mI7MkgwS7M

Right on, Steve.

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Reply #61 posted 11/05/19 1:32pm

jfenster

PeggyO said:

S2DG said:

Always loved Steve Miller but now I have another reason - https://www.youtube.com/w...mI7MkgwS7M

Right on, Steve.

fucken great speech.....classic Steve Miller....https://www.youtube.com/w...3Sbp4NUD2U

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Reply #62 posted 11/05/19 2:12pm

RodeoSchro

avatar

RobotFix said:

pWp9AJ89_o.png






10/15/2019

The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame has announced its nominees for the class of 2020. See the full list above.

Artists who became Rock Hall eligible for the first time this year but weren’t nominated include Oasis, Weezer, Aaliyah, Daft Punk, Elliott Smith, Sleater-Kinney, and Wilco. An artist becomes eligible 25 years after their first commercial record was released.





https://twitter.com/rockhall



I am an Old and therefore, when not yelling at teens to get off my lawn, spend a lot of time telling people, "When I was a young man, things were different!" So take my ramblings as you will...

First of all, regardless of the past, I will always look at the RRHOF as a Hall of Fame for Rock and Roll. Meaning, if you don't play rock and roll then this is not the Hall of Fame for you. (That includes you, Nirvana. ESPECIALLY you.)

Therefore, I would immediately throw out Whitney Houston, the Notorious B.I.G, Rufus/Chaka Khan, and Kraftwerk. Great artists to be sure, but not rock and roll.

Then, I would further narrow the field and say you had to be GREAT at rock and roll in order to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

In my opinion, this excludes Dave Matthews Band (bland and yuck), Depeche Mode (average at best), MC5 (3 albums? Not NEARLY enough of a body of work), Motorhead (anyone can scream in E), Nine Inch Nails (most over-rated musician of all time) and Soundgarden (they tried, they just weren't good).

This leaves these legendary artists:

Pat Benatar
The Doobie Brothers
Judas Priest
Todd Rundgren
T. Rex
Thin Lizzy

Point of Parlimentary Procedure - T. Rex is really just Marc Bolan. He wrote everything. But if all 13 members of the various configurations of T. Rex get in, then Pat Benatar's entire band should, too. Especially her husband, guitarist Neil Geraldo. He's as good a rock and roll guitarist as you will find anywhere, ever.

So there you have it. I'd select those 6 acts above. Each one of them is Hall-worthy, IMO.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's Palladin
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Reply #63 posted 11/05/19 2:53pm

LittleBLUECorv
ette

avatar

RodeoSchro said:



RobotFix said:


pWp9AJ89_o.png










10/15/2019




The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame has announced its nominees for the class of 2020. See the full list above.




Artists who became Rock Hall eligible for the first time this year but weren’t nominated include Oasis, Weezer, Aaliyah, Daft Punk, Elliott Smith, Sleater-Kinney, and Wilco. An artist becomes eligible 25 years after their first commercial record was released.









https://twitter.com/rockhall







I am an Old and therefore, when not yelling at teens to get off my lawn, spend a lot of time telling people, "When I was a young man, things were different!" So take my ramblings as you will...

First of all, regardless of the past, I will always look at the RRHOF as a Hall of Fame for Rock and Roll. Meaning, if you don't play rock and roll then this is not the Hall of Fame for you. (That includes you, Nirvana. ESPECIALLY you.)

Therefore, I would immediately throw out Whitney Houston, the Notorious B.I.G, Rufus/Chaka Khan, and Kraftwerk. Great artists to be sure, but not rock and roll.

Then, I would further narrow the field and say you had to be GREAT at rock and roll in order to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

In my opinion, this excludes Dave Matthews Band (bland and yuck), Depeche Mode (average at best), MC5 (3 albums? Not NEARLY enough of a body of work), Motorhead (anyone can scream in E), Nine Inch Nails (most over-rated musician of all time) and Soundgarden (they tried, they just weren't good).

This leaves these legendary artists:

Pat Benatar
The Doobie Brothers
Judas Priest
Todd Rundgren
T. Rex
Thin Lizzy

Point of Parlimentary Procedure - T. Rex is really just Marc Bolan. He wrote everything. But if all 13 members of the various configurations of T. Rex get in, then Pat Benatar's entire band should, too. Especially her husband, guitarist Neil Geraldo. He's as good a rock and roll guitarist as you will find anywhere, ever.

So there you have it. I'd select those 6 acts above. Each one of them is Hall-worthy, IMO.


Rock & Roll is another name for Rhythm & Blues.
Leaving off someone that has already been nominated because they don't play Rock & Roll?
Technically no one plays Rock & Roll anymore as it went aways in the early 60s as Soul and Rock were being born from Rock & Roll and Rhythm & Blues.
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #64 posted 11/05/19 7:57pm

kitbradley

avatar

RodeoSchro said:



I am an Old and therefore, when not yelling at teens to get off my lawn, spend a lot of time telling people, "When I was a young man, things were different!" So take my ramblings as you will...

First of all, regardless of the past, I will always look at the RRHOF as a Hall of Fame for Rock and Roll. Meaning, if you don't play rock and roll then this is not the Hall of Fame for you. (That includes you, Nirvana. ESPECIALLY you.)

Therefore, I would immediately throw out Whitney Houston, the Notorious B.I.G, Rufus/Chaka Khan, and Kraftwerk. Great artists to be sure, but not rock and roll.

Then, I would further narrow the field and say you had to be GREAT at rock and roll in order to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

In my opinion, this excludes Dave Matthews Band (bland and yuck), Depeche Mode (average at best), MC5 (3 albums? Not NEARLY enough of a body of work), Motorhead (anyone can scream in E), Nine Inch Nails (most over-rated musician of all time) and Soundgarden (they tried, they just weren't good).

This leaves these legendary artists:

Pat Benatar
The Doobie Brothers
Judas Priest
Todd Rundgren
T. Rex
Thin Lizzy

Point of Parlimentary Procedure - T. Rex is really just Marc Bolan. He wrote everything. But if all 13 members of the various configurations of T. Rex get in, then Pat Benatar's entire band should, too. Especially her husband, guitarist Neil Geraldo. He's as good a rock and roll guitarist as you will find anywhere, ever.

So there you have it. I'd select those 6 acts above. Each one of them is Hall-worthy, IMO.

So you feel all of the Motown acts that were inducted didn't techinically qualify? None of them were Rock & Roll using your line of thinking. Aretha, Billie and many others would be kicked to the curb, too. As far as Rufus & Chaka, they started out as a R&B/Rock band before leaning more towards R&B in the mid-70s. So, by your definition, they qualify.





[Edited 11/5/19 20:11pm]

"It's not nice to fuck with K.B.! All you haters will see!" - Kitbradley
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Reply #65 posted 11/06/19 11:04am

RodeoSchro

avatar

kitbradley said:

RodeoSchro said:

So you feel all of the Motown acts that were inducted didn't techinically qualify? None of them were Rock & Roll using your line of thinking. Aretha, Billie and many others would be kicked to the curb, too. As far as Rufus & Chaka, they started out as a R&B/Rock band before leaning more towards R&B in the mid-70s. So, by your definition, they qualify.





[Edited 11/5/19 20:11pm]



Correct - none of those bands would qualify for a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But hey, I know I lost that argument 25 years ago. There are dozens of artists in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that did not play rock and roll.

Still, I'll always stay consistent and promote rock bands for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Would you promote The Cars for the Rhythm and Blues Hall of Fame? I wouldn't.

Would I promote The Cars or Aretha Franklin for the Music Hall of Fame? Hell yes!

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's Palladin
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Reply #66 posted 11/06/19 11:59am

kitbradley

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I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, how we feel about certain genres actually has to do with the way labels decided to market them. Thing is Rhythm & Blues was always more specifically defined and marketed towards black people. Rock & Roll, on the other hand, has always had a less-defined general meaning.

Wikipedia says: Rock and roll (often written as rock & roll, rock 'n' roll or rock 'n roll) is a genre of popular music that originated and evolved in the United States during the late 1940s and early 1950s from musical styles such as gospel, jump blues, jazz, boogie woogie, and rhythm and blues and country music. It encompasses and evolved from several different genres of music.

I know we tend to have a certain idea of what rock & roll is supposed to sound like and what those musicians are supposed to look like because again labels decided to market the music primarily towards certain groups of people. But, the reality is, it's hard to really narrow down the term "rock & roll" to a specific sound.

"It's not nice to fuck with K.B.! All you haters will see!" - Kitbradley
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Reply #67 posted 11/06/19 2:06pm

RodeoSchro

avatar

kitbradley said:

I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, how we feel about certain genres actually has to do with the way labels decided to market them. Thing is Rhythm & Blues was always more specifically defined and marketed towards black people. Rock & Roll, on the other hand, has always had a less-defined general meaning.

Wikipedia says: Rock and roll (often written as rock & roll, rock 'n' roll or rock 'n roll) is a genre of popular music that originated and evolved in the United States during the late 1940s and early 1950s from musical styles such as gospel, jump blues, jazz, boogie woogie, and rhythm and blues and country music. It encompasses and evolved from several different genres of music.

I know we tend to have a certain idea of what rock & roll is supposed to sound like and what those musicians are supposed to look like because again labels decided to market the music primarily towards certain groups of people. But, the reality is, it's hard to really narrow down the term "rock & roll" to a specific sound.



Agreed.

I think the simplest thing would be to call it the Music Hall of Fame. Rock and/or roll (you missed one, LOL); R&B; Country; Soul; What-Have-You. That's what I would do if I were Emperor and if you agree, please support me in my run for Emperor!

EDIT: How can I ever expect to be Emperor if I keep misspelling the word?!?

Worst. EMPORER. Ever.

.

[Edited 11/6/19 14:07pm]

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's Palladin
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Reply #68 posted 11/06/19 5:27pm

LittleBLUECorv
ette

avatar

RodeoSchro said:

kitbradley said:

So you feel all of the Motown acts that were inducted didn't techinically qualify? None of them were Rock & Roll using your line of thinking. Aretha, Billie and many others would be kicked to the curb, too. As far as Rufus & Chaka, they started out as a R&B/Rock band before leaning more towards R&B in the mid-70s. So, by your definition, they qualify.





[Edited 11/5/19 20:11pm]



Correct - none of those bands would qualify for a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But hey, I know I lost that argument 25 years ago. There are dozens of artists in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that did not play rock and roll.

Still, I'll always stay consistent and promote rock bands for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Would you promote The Cars for the Rhythm and Blues Hall of Fame? I wouldn't.

Would I promote The Cars or Aretha Franklin for the Music Hall of Fame? Hell yes!

-"Rock & Roll" and "Rock" are two totally different forms of music. "Rock & Roll" was basically another name for Rhythm & Blues in the early 50s. Which is why your black performers like Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers, Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters, The Coasters, The Cadillacs, etc are considered Rock & Roll acts. Even up until the mid 60s, singers like Sam Cooke, James Brown were considered Rock & Roll stars.

-Rock is the late 60s genre where you get the Doors, the Who, Led Zeppelin, and those guys.

-They are not the same. Which is the reason why one is called "Rock & Roll" and the other is called "Rock."

PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #69 posted 11/07/19 10:46am

S2DG

avatar

LittleBLUECorvette said:

RodeoSchro said:



Correct - none of those bands would qualify for a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But hey, I know I lost that argument 25 years ago. There are dozens of artists in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that did not play rock and roll.

Still, I'll always stay consistent and promote rock bands for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Would you promote The Cars for the Rhythm and Blues Hall of Fame? I wouldn't.

Would I promote The Cars or Aretha Franklin for the Music Hall of Fame? Hell yes!

-"Rock & Roll" and "Rock" are two totally different forms of music. "Rock & Roll" was basically another name for Rhythm & Blues in the early 50s. Which is why your black performers like Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers, Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters, The Coasters, The Cadillacs, etc are considered Rock & Roll acts. Even up until the mid 60s, singers like Sam Cooke, James Brown were considered Rock & Roll stars.

-Rock is the late 60s genre where you get the Doors, the Who, Led Zeppelin, and those guys.

-They are not the same. Which is the reason why one is called "Rock & Roll" and the other is called "Rock."


Had no idea, today I learned something, thanks! thumbs up!

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Reply #70 posted 11/07/19 12:16pm

RodeoSchro

avatar

S2DG said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

-"Rock & Roll" and "Rock" are two totally different forms of music. "Rock & Roll" was basically another name for Rhythm & Blues in the early 50s. Which is why your black performers like Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers, Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters, The Coasters, The Cadillacs, etc are considered Rock & Roll acts. Even up until the mid 60s, singers like Sam Cooke, James Brown were considered Rock & Roll stars.

-Rock is the late 60s genre where you get the Doors, the Who, Led Zeppelin, and those guys.

-They are not the same. Which is the reason why one is called "Rock & Roll" and the other is called "Rock."


Had no idea, today I learned something, thanks! thumbs up!



That's not accurate; at least, not in my recollection.

I'm 60 and according to my collection of 45's, I started buying records in 1967 (I still have my Monkees' 45 of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and Bobby Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", just to name a couple of records from 1967).

I absolutely, positively never heard Sam Cooke or James Brown called "rock and roll stars". Little Richard? Yes and that was accurate. Chuck Berry? Hell yes, he INVENTED rock and roll. But all those other acts?

Nope. Never were they called "rock and roll stars" on the radio, TV or newspapers that I listened to, watched, or read. They were then and always have been "pop" stars. Or "Top 40" stars.

In my experience, there is not and has never been a distinction between a "rock star" and a "rock and roll star". And if there ever was, it was fleeting. "Rock" and "rock and roll" are exactly the same thing and have been if not forever, then almost.

I think they named the Hall the wrong thing. It should have been called the Music Hall of Fame but I doubt that would have sold as well.

My two cents.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's Palladin
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Reply #71 posted 11/07/19 2:03pm

S2DG

avatar

RodeoSchro said:

S2DG said:


Had no idea, today I learned something, thanks! thumbs up!



That's not accurate; at least, not in my recollection.

I'm 60 and according to my collection of 45's, I started buying records in 1967 (I still have my Monkees' 45 of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and Bobby Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", just to name a couple of records from 1967).

I absolutely, positively never heard Sam Cooke or James Brown called "rock and roll stars". Little Richard? Yes and that was accurate. Chuck Berry? Hell yes, he INVENTED rock and roll. But all those other acts?

Nope. Never were they called "rock and roll stars" on the radio, TV or newspapers that I listened to, watched, or read. They were then and always have been "pop" stars. Or "Top 40" stars.

In my experience, there is not and has never been a distinction between a "rock star" and a "rock and roll star". And if there ever was, it was fleeting. "Rock" and "rock and roll" are exactly the same thing and have been if not forever, then almost.

I think they named the Hall the wrong thing. It should have been called the Music Hall of Fame but I doubt that would have sold as well.

My two cents.


hmmm

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Reply #72 posted 11/07/19 2:49pm

PeggyO

RodeoSchro said:

S2DG said:


Had no idea, today I learned something, thanks! thumbs up!



That's not accurate; at least, not in my recollection.

I'm 60 and according to my collection of 45's, I started buying records in 1967 (I still have my Monkees' 45 of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and Bobby Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", just to name a couple of records from 1967).

I absolutely, positively never heard Sam Cooke or James Brown called "rock and roll stars". Little Richard? Yes and that was accurate. Chuck Berry? Hell yes, he INVENTED rock and roll. But all those other acts?

Nope. Never were they called "rock and roll stars" on the radio, TV or newspapers that I listened to, watched, or read. They were then and always have been "pop" stars. Or "Top 40" stars.

In my experience, there is not and has never been a distinction between a "rock star" and a "rock and roll star". And if there ever was, it was fleeting. "Rock" and "rock and roll" are exactly the same thing and have been if not forever, then almost.

I think they named the Hall the wrong thing. It should have been called the Music Hall of Fame but I doubt that would have sold as well.

My two cents.

Fun post...laughed alot.

Just can't do the Doobie Bros.

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Reply #73 posted 11/07/19 7:06pm

LittleBLUECorv
ette

avatar

RodeoSchro said:



S2DG said:




LittleBLUECorvette said:



-"Rock & Roll" and "Rock" are two totally different forms of music. "Rock & Roll" was basically another name for Rhythm & Blues in the early 50s. Which is why your black performers like Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers, Clyde McPhatter & the Drifters, The Coasters, The Cadillacs, etc are considered Rock & Roll acts. Even up until the mid 60s, singers like Sam Cooke, James Brown were considered Rock & Roll stars.



-Rock is the late 60s genre where you get the Doors, the Who, Led Zeppelin, and those guys.



-They are not the same. Which is the reason why one is called "Rock & Roll" and the other is called "Rock."




Had no idea, today I learned something, thanks! thumbs up!





That's not accurate; at least, not in my recollection.

I'm 60 and according to my collection of 45's, I started buying records in 1967 (I still have my Monkees' 45 of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and Bobby Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", just to name a couple of records from 1967).

I absolutely, positively never heard Sam Cooke or James Brown called "rock and roll stars". Little Richard? Yes and that was accurate. Chuck Berry? Hell yes, he INVENTED rock and roll. But all those other acts?

Nope. Never were they called "rock and roll stars" on the radio, TV or newspapers that I listened to, watched, or read. They were then and always have been "pop" stars. Or "Top 40" stars.

In my experience, there is not and has never been a distinction between a "rock star" and a "rock and roll star". And if there ever was, it was fleeting. "Rock" and "rock and roll" are exactly the same thing and have been if not forever, then almost.

I think they named the Hall the wrong thing. It should have been called the Music Hall of Fame but I doubt that would have sold as well.

My two cents.


Singers like Cooke and Brown were absolutely considered Rock & Roll singers in the 60s.
They definitely weren't pop singers at that time.
Pop singers in the 60s were guys like Johnny Mathis.

[img:$uid]http://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragecs4/Pictures/_15/14129/14128157.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://lrculturevulture.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ark-gazette-60-02-05-fri-ad.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://live.staticflickr.com/3672/9046721042_e7b4f076f4_z.jpg[/img:$uid]
[Edited 11/8/19 1:13am]
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #74 posted 11/08/19 1:45am

LittleBLUECorv
ette

avatar

RodeoSchro said:

S2DG said:


Had no idea, today I learned something, thanks! thumbs up!



That's not accurate; at least, not in my recollection.

I'm 60 and according to my collection of 45's, I started buying records in 1967 (I still have my Monkees' 45 of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and Bobby Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", just to name a couple of records from 1967).

I absolutely, positively never heard Sam Cooke or James Brown called "rock and roll stars". Little Richard? Yes and that was accurate. Chuck Berry? Hell yes, he INVENTED rock and roll. But all those other acts?

Nope. Never were they called "rock and roll stars" on the radio, TV or newspapers that I listened to, watched, or read. They were then and always have been "pop" stars. Or "Top 40" stars.

In my experience, there is not and has never been a distinction between a "rock star" and a "rock and roll star". And if there ever was, it was fleeting. "Rock" and "rock and roll" are exactly the same thing and have been if not forever, then almost.

I think they named the Hall the wrong thing. It should have been called the Music Hall of Fame but I doubt that would have sold as well.

My two cents.

Singers like Cooke and Brown were absolutely considered Rock & Roll singers in the 60s.
They definitely weren't pop singers at that time.
Pop singers in the 60s were guys like Johnny Mathis.

https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragecs4/Pictures/_15/14129/14128157.jpg

https://lrculturevulture.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ark-gazette-60-02-05-fri-ad.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3672/9046721042_e7b4f076f4_z.jpg

PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #75 posted 11/08/19 6:40am

kitbradley

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Most of us associate James Brown and Sam Cooke as being Soul singers. I wasn't around back in the 50s and 60s but I don't think the terms "Soul" and "R&B" were being used as labels as much back then. Most of those R&B/Soul singers were being described as "rock & roll". It wasn't until late 60's and early 70s that the record companies began to segregate artists by slapping those different labels on them.

"It's not nice to fuck with K.B.! All you haters will see!" - Kitbradley
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Reply #76 posted 11/08/19 9:03am

S2DG

avatar

LittleBLUECorvette said:

RodeoSchro said:



That's not accurate; at least, not in my recollection.

I'm 60 and according to my collection of 45's, I started buying records in 1967 (I still have my Monkees' 45 of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and Bobby Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", just to name a couple of records from 1967).

I absolutely, positively never heard Sam Cooke or James Brown called "rock and roll stars". Little Richard? Yes and that was accurate. Chuck Berry? Hell yes, he INVENTED rock and roll. But all those other acts?

Nope. Never were they called "rock and roll stars" on the radio, TV or newspapers that I listened to, watched, or read. They were then and always have been "pop" stars. Or "Top 40" stars.

In my experience, there is not and has never been a distinction between a "rock star" and a "rock and roll star". And if there ever was, it was fleeting. "Rock" and "rock and roll" are exactly the same thing and have been if not forever, then almost.

I think they named the Hall the wrong thing. It should have been called the Music Hall of Fame but I doubt that would have sold as well.

My two cents.

Singers like Cooke and Brown were absolutely considered Rock & Roll singers in the 60s.
They definitely weren't pop singers at that time.
Pop singers in the 60s were guys like Johnny Mathis.

https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragecs4/Pictures/_15/14129/14128157.jpg

https://lrculturevulture.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ark-gazette-60-02-05-fri-ad.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3672/9046721042_e7b4f076f4_z.jpg



Here we have it. Thanks for the clarification.

Music is a reflection of the time it's made, so the importance in an accurate, historic context is a big deal.

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Reply #77 posted 11/09/19 9:05am

LittleBLUECorv
ette

avatar

S2DG said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Singers like Cooke and Brown were absolutely considered Rock & Roll singers in the 60s.
They definitely weren't pop singers at that time.
Pop singers in the 60s were guys like Johnny Mathis.

https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragecs4/Pictures/_15/14129/14128157.jpg

https://lrculturevulture.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ark-gazette-60-02-05-fri-ad.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3672/9046721042_e7b4f076f4_z.jpg



Here we have it. Thanks for the clarification.

Music is a reflection of the time it's made, so the importance in an accurate, historic context is a big deal.

I think it wasn't until the Late 60s (definitely by the start of the 70s) where it was a complete separation.

The T.A.M.I. show premiered in 1964. Marvin Gaye and the Rolling Stones were both being promoted as Rock & Roll Stars as TAMI was the first Rock & Roll Concert to be televised.

Ten years later in 1974, the only guys being promoted as Rock & Roll singers are actually singers from the 50s’ who were now doing oldies tours. Guys like Jerry Lee Lewis.

Rolling Stones were now Rock singers and Marvin Gaye either a Soul or R&B star.

PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #78 posted 11/09/19 2:49pm

PeggyO

Sam Cooke...yum, yum.

Sorry, could not help myself.

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Reply #79 posted 11/09/19 8:37pm

MickyDolenz

avatar

kitbradley said:

Most of us associate James Brown and Sam Cooke as being Soul singers. I wasn't around back in the 50s and 60s but I don't think the terms "Soul" and "R&B" were being used as labels as much back then. Most of those R&B/Soul singers were being described as "rock & roll". It wasn't until late 60's and early 70s that the record companies began to segregate artists by slapping those different labels on them.

I think one of the owners of Atlantic Records came up with the title "rhythm & blues". Before that most popular music by black performers was called "race music". During one period in Billboard Magazine, it was titled "Harlem Hit Parade". Country & western was originally called "hillbilly". During the early rock n roll era, white singers like Elvis Presley, Conway Twitty, Johnnie Ray, & Jerry Lee Lewis had R&B hits. Conway was originally a R&B singer, he switched to country music later. Same for Ronnie Milsap, but many of his later country records still had a R&B sound to them. Nashville country session musicians also played on R&B/soul records like Joe Tex & Wilson Pickett. Same with the King Records house band, The Swampers, & The Memphis Boys. The term "rock n roll" was originally black slang for sex. It can be heard mentioned in some blues & jazz songs from the 1930s & 1940s, which is the pre-album 78s era.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #80 posted 11/10/19 7:49am

S2DG

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MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

Most of us associate James Brown and Sam Cooke as being Soul singers. I wasn't around back in the 50s and 60s but I don't think the terms "Soul" and "R&B" were being used as labels as much back then. Most of those R&B/Soul singers were being described as "rock & roll". It wasn't until late 60's and early 70s that the record companies began to segregate artists by slapping those different labels on them.

I think one of the owners of Atlantic Records came up with the title "rhythm & blues". Before that most popular music by black performers was called "race music". During one period in Billboard Magazine, it was titled "Harlem Hit Parade". Country & western was originally called "hillbilly". During the early rock n roll era, white singers like Elvis Presley, Conway Twitty, Johnnie Ray, & Jerry Lee Lewis had R&B hits. Conway was originally a R&B singer, he switched to country music later. Same for Ronnie Milsap, but many of his later country records still had a R&B sound to them. Nashville country session musicians also played on R&B/soul records like Joe Tex & Wilson Pickett. Same with the King Records house band, The Swampers, & The Memphis Boys. The term "rock n roll" was originally black slang for sex. It can be heard mentioned in some blues & jazz songs from the 1930s & 1940s, which is the pre-album 78s era.


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Reply #81 posted 11/10/19 9:58am

Tontoman22

kitbradley said:

Tontoman22 said:

Houston was not a cross over artist ! She was pop from the get go and marketed by Clive Davis (Artisa Records) as such.

I have to disagree. "You Give Good Love", the first single from her debut, was strongly marketed towards the R&B audience. It topped that chart but stalled at #3 on the Pop side. Subsequent singles were more targeted towards Pop audiences. In the 80's, it was important for most black artists to solidify their R&B audience first. Despite her fighting it, even Tina Turner was told "Private Dancer" must include R&B songs to be a success in the United States.

As far as Nippy, all of the singles after YGGL went to #1 on the Pop side. Many of those same songs went to number one on the R&B side also but were obviously more Pop-oriented. Most Pop music fans don't even remember "You Give Good Love". If you ask most people outside of the black community what was Nippy's first hit, they would probably say "Saving All My Love For You". "You Give Good Love" is considered a classic in the R&B genre and remains one of the few songs that still gets spins on old-school R&B radio stations. I haven't heard the song on any Pop stations in decades.

You can disagree all you like. Clive Davis signed Houston to be a major pop star, PERIOD. The choice of YGGL as the first single came from her first manager, in case she flopped in the pop market he wanted her to have an R & B career as a back up. Her entire career was strongly marketed. Davis ran full page ads in billboard magazine for 3 months straight (her debut album). The marketing and the payola was there to push her singles. She had one gold single in 80 IWDWS, the changing Hot 100 chart calutations and the clout of Davis is what got her 7 #1 singles. Many are not remembered DWAHIA & WDBHG, becasue they were bought and paid for by Arista (and should have never top the charts). When MTV went to a top 40 format at the end of 1984, Davis still had trouble getting her music on the rotation lists, but that was because they were ballads. He smartly hire Brian Grant to do the video for How Will I Know, she made rotation and got played in heavy rotation in Januray 1986, then the Greatest Love of All followed. In March her album when to #1 after being around for over a year. And started selling alot. It was all marketing and business. And yes, I usually only here the uptempo songs IWDWS & HWIK.

[Edited 11/10/19 10:04am]

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Reply #82 posted 11/10/19 1:12pm

PennyPurple

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Tontoman22 said:

You can disagree all you like. Clive Davis signed Houston to be a major pop star, PERIOD. The choice of YGGL as the first single came from her first manager, in case she flopped in the pop market he wanted her to have an R & B career as a back up. Her entire career was strongly marketed. Davis ran full page ads in billboard magazine for 3 months straight (her debut album). The marketing and the payola was there to push her singles. She had one gold single in 80 IWDWS, the changing Hot 100 chart calutations and the clout of Davis is what got her 7 #1 singles. Many are not remembered DWAHIA & WDBHG, becasue they were bought and paid for by Arista (and should have never top the charts). When MTV went to a top 40 format at the end of 1984, Davis still had trouble getting her music on the rotation lists, but that was because they were ballads. He smartly hire Brian Grant to do the video for How Will I Know, she made rotation and got played in heavy rotation in Januray 1986, then the Greatest Love of All followed. In March her album when to #1 after being around for over a year. And started selling alot. It was all marketing and business. And yes, I usually only here the uptempo songs IWDWS & HWIK.

[Edited 11/10/19 10:04am]

Just watched the Netflix documentary on Clive last night. It talks about this. It's a great documentary!

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Reply #83 posted 11/10/19 6:47pm

lastdecember

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An interesting point raised the other day I heard, there is always a debate when someone gets in like Madonna or Whitney that they are not Rock and someone who noticed Notoious BIG and said, if we say all of these things are "rock" how come Gorge Strait Willie Nelson Kenny Rogers aren't in the hall?


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #84 posted 11/10/19 8:41pm

MickyDolenz

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lastdecember said:

An interesting point raised the other day I heard, there is always a debate when someone gets in like Madonna or Whitney that they are not Rock and someone who noticed Notoious BIG and said, if we say all of these things are "rock" how come Gorge Strait Willie Nelson Kenny Rogers aren't in the hall?

There's a few country acts inducted, but I think they all debuted in the 1950s or before. I don't think they have much southern rock/country rock either other than the obvious Eagles, Allman Brothers, & Lynyrd Skynyrd. I've heard that Jann Wenner is not a fan of heavy metal & progressive rock. That's probably why there isn't much of that in the hall. I think Abba & Donna Summer is filling the disco quota, and Donna didn't get in until she passed. You can guess who is more likely to be inducted by the type of coverage (or lack of) in Rolling Stone magazine. So I figure when it's Destiny's Child, Jay-Z's, & Justin Timberlake's time, they're probably gonna get in first year of being eligible. Just like Green Day & Nirvana did. Instead of like Kraftwerk & Chic who have been nominated multiple times and not got inducted. Eric Clapton has been inducted 3 times, the only act that has done that. The Beatles are the only act in which the group and all of the members have been inducted as solo performers. Even George Martin & Brian Epstein are inducted.

Right now Dave Matthews Band is in 1st place with the fan vote. They're the newest act of the top 5 (or the entire list except for Biggie Smalls).

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #85 posted 11/11/19 8:32am

kitbradley

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I was kind of surprised Cher is not in and I don't believe she has ever been nominated. eek

"It's not nice to fuck with K.B.! All you haters will see!" - Kitbradley
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Reply #86 posted 11/11/19 10:38pm

controversy99

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Hmm.
.
This year’s nominees suffer from two things: (1) ongoing problem that “rock and roll” was a musical style of the 1950s and early 1960s and people can’t agree if “rock”, “R&B”, “metal”, “hip hop”, etc. qualify or not and (2) none of the artists who qualify are clearly top notch.
.
Whitney Houston is one of my favorites, but I don’ see how she is rock and roll. On the other hand, I like Soundgarden and can argue they’re rock and roll, but they don’t have enough great material to be in the hall.
.
The only artists on this list that I think are worthy of the Hall are Rufus featuring Chaka Khan, Doobie Brothers, and T. Rex. If more groups get in this round (and they will), it just continue to dilute the meaning of the hall.
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Reply #87 posted 11/12/19 9:41am

RodeoSchro

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S2DG said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Singers like Cooke and Brown were absolutely considered Rock & Roll singers in the 60s.
They definitely weren't pop singers at that time.
Pop singers in the 60s were guys like Johnny Mathis.

https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragecs4/Pictures/_15/14129/14128157.jpg

https://lrculturevulture.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ark-gazette-60-02-05-fri-ad.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3672/9046721042_e7b4f076f4_z.jpg



Here we have it. Thanks for the clarification.

Music is a reflection of the time it's made, so the importance in an accurate, historic context is a big deal.



If you asked those guys, or Notorious BIG, or Run DMC, or any other soul/rap/hip-hop artist if they were rock and rollers, what do you think they'd say? Personally, I doubt they'd agree they are rock and roll singers.

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Reply #88 posted 11/12/19 10:27am

jfenster

S2DG said:

MickyDolenz said:

I think one of the owners of Atlantic Records came up with the title "rhythm & blues". Before that most popular music by black performers was called "race music". During one period in Billboard Magazine, it was titled "Harlem Hit Parade". Country & western was originally called "hillbilly". During the early rock n roll era, white singers like Elvis Presley, Conway Twitty, Johnnie Ray, & Jerry Lee Lewis had R&B hits. Conway was originally a R&B singer, he switched to country music later. Same for Ronnie Milsap, but many of his later country records still had a R&B sound to them. Nashville country session musicians also played on R&B/soul records like Joe Tex & Wilson Pickett. Same with the King Records house band, The Swampers, & The Memphis Boys. The term "rock n roll" was originally black slang for sex. It can be heard mentioned in some blues & jazz songs from the 1930s & 1940s, which is the pre-album 78s era.


Micky dropping information bombs!

blowup

and i thought i first heard it when Ed Norton said it on the honeymooners

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Reply #89 posted 11/12/19 12:37pm

LittleBLUECorv
ette

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RodeoSchro said:



S2DG said:




LittleBLUECorvette said:



Singers like Cooke and Brown were absolutely considered Rock & Roll singers in the 60s.
They definitely weren't pop singers at that time.
Pop singers in the 60s were guys like Johnny Mathis.

https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragecs4/Pictures/_15/14129/14128157.jpg

https://lrculturevulture.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ark-gazette-60-02-05-fri-ad.jpg



https://live.staticflickr.com/3672/9046721042_e7b4f076f4_z.jpg





Here we have it. Thanks for the clarification.

Music is a reflection of the time it's made, so the importance in an accurate, historic context is a big deal.





If you asked those guys, or Notorious BIG, or Run DMC, or any other soul/rap/hip-hop artist if they were rock and rollers, what do you think they'd say? Personally, I doubt they'd agree they are rock and roll singers.


Rock & Roll is another name for Rhythm & Blues so why wouldn't they agree?
All those are extensions of Rock & Roll.

If you want to get technical not one of the nominees is doing Rock & Roll as it waa done in the 50s.
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