DaveT said:

Threads like this are ridiculous. MJ fans are gonna say MJ, Madonna fans are gonna say Madonna. It's playground squabbling over semantics and it's really petty.

Madonna didn't influence me one jot, because I don't rate her and have no interest in her. MJ influenced me massively, because I'm a big fan.

If we're talking about culturally, well, I have my own opinions about that, which, surprise surprise, happen to align with which of the two artists I rate more highly... just like everyone else in this thread.

It is impossible for fans of either two artists to objectively discuss this subject without factoring in their own personal bias.

Having said that, of course it's MJ and it's not even close.

In gay clubs - Madonna.

Outside gay clubs - MJ.

MattyJam said:

Threads like this are ridiculous. MJ fans are gonna say MJ, Madonna fans are gonna say Madonna. It's playground squabbling over semantics and it's really petty.

Madonna didn't influence me one jot, because I don't rate her and have no interest in her. MJ influenced me massively, because I'm a big fan.

If we're talking about culturally, well, I have my own opinions about that, which, surprise surprise, happen to align with which of the two artists I rate more highly... just like everyone else in this thread.

It is impossible for fans of either two artists to objectively discuss this subject without factoring in their own personal bias.

Having said that, of course it's MJ and it's not even close.

nextedition said:

namepeace said:

Agreed. DaveT doesn't make an unreasonable argument, just an overly broad one.

There aren't many pop music artists, male or female, who don't aspire to have the next Thriller. I can't think of many pop music artists of either gender in the MTV Age who weren't impacted by MJ's work in the medium.

You may not see many females wearing the zipper jackets, military regalia and sparkly gloves, but there are literally thousands, if not MILLIONS, of girls that had MJ on their posters and t-shirts.

One point I will agree on: Madonna was, is and will be a grinder. She got every ounce out of her talents and charisma.

But don't sleep on MJ. He just made it look easy.

That's not being influenced, that is being a fan.

Consider the context of DaveT's post, where he included the influence of Madonna on fashion in females, and also in the gay community and in his own life.

Under such a broad definition of "influence," as used by Dave T, the statement is in context. And therefore stands.

DaveT said:

LiLi1992 said:

DaveT said: Well, for me Madonna's music was interesting from 1986 to 1998, Michael's from 1978 to 1995. ard candy and Mdna are no better than Invincible. So include them in Madonna's run, but not Michael's - biased. And Michael also had "returns". In the mid-70s he was actually written off for retirement, most believed that he was cute boy who ceased to be interesting to the public when he grew up. His albums and singles were not in the top 40 even. But he returned not only his popularity, but also multiplied it many times. But I agree that such topics are full of subjective judgments, so the correct answer to this question does not exist in principle.

I think you're missing out not including American Life (an underrated Madge album) and Confessions On A Dancefloor if you're cutting Madonna off at 1998, two very good albums.

And I'm not including Hard Candy or MDNA in the Madonna run, they are weak; I'm counting her past 2005 based on her live tours which have been excellent. If you combine the best of Candy and MDNA there's a reasonable album there, and if she'd have pruned the weak songs off of Rebel Heart that album would have been really good

Not sure I'd class MJ's seventies career as a comeback, I think that was just the natural transition from teen to adulthood that all performers of that age have to go through. I'll admit its before my time, but retrospectively I haven't seen anything about the press lambasting him at that time ... certainly not like the kicking Madge got in the press in the mid-nineties when she was wandering around with an inflatable sheep under her arm and her knockers out For MJ that came later when he started dangling babies off of balconies, and he never recovered from that.

[Edited 3/17/17 2:33am]

Indeed, there are just too much material there, and most of them are not really that good. Had it left out some of those cuts, the album would have been much better.

[Edited 3/17/17 13:37pm]

Fiona01 said:

In gay clubs - Madonna.

Outside gay clubs - MJ.

It may be true.

MotownSubdivision said:

DaveT said:

Females influenced by MJ - None that I know of. I knew a couple of guys growing up who tried to imitate his style but no ladies.

Males influenced by Madge - Thousands, if not more ... just go ask the gay community (and a few straight ones, myself included ... I certainly took her work ethic and attitude on board). Women by Madge? Where to start! She was the first female music megastar.

Influence can go deeper than what can be outwardly seen or heard. Beyonce, for example, outside of a few wardrobes and choreographed dance routines does not resemble MJ in the slightest yet she considers him an influence nontheless. There are acts out there who Prince influenced but they don't dress like he did or make the same music.

I agree. Being influential to others can go broad, and I think maybe he's saying who has the most dominant influence in a certain area. I agree that Madonna has the most dominant influence to the gay demographic. She has that on lockdown. MJ has more worldwide influence to me. He tried to unitize and use healing, through his music, making him more transformative.

[Edited 3/18/17 11:46am]

MattyJam said:

Threads like this are ridiculous. MJ fans are gonna say MJ, Madonna fans are gonna say Madonna. It's playground squabbling over semantics and it's really petty.

Madonna didn't influence me one jot, because I don't rate her and have no interest in her. MJ influenced me massively, because I'm a big fan.

If we're talking about culturally, well, I have my own opinions about that, which, surprise surprise, happen to align with which of the two artists I rate more highly... just like everyone else in this thread.

It is impossible for fans of either two artists to objectively discuss this subject without factoring in their own personal bias.

Having said that, of course it's MJ and it's not even close.

I think it depends how objective a person is willing to be about the artist they hold up as their favourite.

I really don't like The Beatles ... I don't listen to them, I don't like their music aside from a song or two. Give me Pink Floyd all day long over them, one of my all time faves. But, I can fully admit that if you were to name the best band of all time, most influencial, etc The Beatles would be on top.

Now if we're talking about influence (not necessarily the same thing as greatness or quality) I still go for Madge. Had there been male megastars before MJ? Yup, Elvis. Had there been black male megastars before MJ? Yup, Chuck, Stevie, Marvin.

Had there been female megastars before Madge? Nope; she changed that, which was a huge thing.

DaveT said:

MattyJam said:

Threads like this are ridiculous. MJ fans are gonna say MJ, Madonna fans are gonna say Madonna. It's playground squabbling over semantics and it's really petty.

Madonna didn't influence me one jot, because I don't rate her and have no interest in her. MJ influenced me massively, because I'm a big fan.

If we're talking about culturally, well, I have my own opinions about that, which, surprise surprise, happen to align with which of the two artists I rate more highly... just like everyone else in this thread.

It is impossible for fans of either two artists to objectively discuss this subject without factoring in their own personal bias.

Having said that, of course it's MJ and it's not even close.

Had there been female megastars before Madge? Nope; she changed that, which was a huge thing.

Couldn't you easily argue that has as much to do with MTV (and Michael Jackson leading the way) as much as it does Madonna?

[Edited 3/20/17 7:21am]

DaveT said:

DaveT said:

MattyJam said:

Threads like this are ridiculous. MJ fans are gonna say MJ, Madonna fans are gonna say Madonna. It's playground squabbling over semantics and it's really petty.

Madonna didn't influence me one jot, because I don't rate her and have no interest in her. MJ influenced me massively, because I'm a big fan.

If we're talking about culturally, well, I have my own opinions about that, which, surprise surprise, happen to align with which of the two artists I rate more highly... just like everyone else in this thread.

It is impossible for fans of either two artists to objectively discuss this subject without factoring in their own personal bias.

Having said that, of course it's MJ and it's not even close.

I think it depends how objective a person is willing to be about the artist they hold up as their favourite.

I really don't like The Beatles ... I don't listen to them, I don't like their music aside from a song or two. Give me Pink Floyd all day long over them, one of my all time faves. But, I can fully admit that if you were to name the best band of all time, most influencial, etc The Beatles would be on top.

Now if we're talking about influence (not necessarily the same thing as greatness or quality) I still go for Madge. Had there been male megastars before MJ? Yup, Elvis. Had there been black male megastars before MJ? Yup, Chuck, Stevie, Marvin.

Had there been female megastars before Madge? Nope; she changed that, which was a huge thing.

What about Aretha Franklin, Tina Turner, Dionne Warwick, Diana Ross and Nina Simone? I would be sad if all these wonderful singers are forgotten and Madonna is remembered. I loved 80's Madonna by the way. But she cant touch those singers i mentioned.

[Edited 3/20/17 13:42pm]

Guitarhero said:

DaveT said:

Had there been female megastars before Madge? Nope; she changed that, which was a huge thing.

What about Aretha Franklin, Tina Turner, Dionne Warwick, Diana Ross and Nina Simone?

"Megastar" takes on a whole different context in the MTV Age.

To be sure, all the pre-MTV artists you mentioned to some degree or another gave incredible TV performances.

But for all their artistic and commercial achievements, they really didn't have anything quite like the music video (as we know it) to use as promotional tool to sell albums and develop and expand on a commercial "brand."

So, Madonna could fairly be seen as the first female megastar . . . of the Video Age.

namepeace said:

Guitarhero said:

What about Aretha Franklin, Tina Turner, Dionne Warwick, Diana Ross and Nina Simone?

"Megastar" takes on a whole different context in the MTV Age.

To be sure, all the pre-MTV artists you mentioned to some degree or another gave incredible TV performances.

But for all their artistic and commercial achievements, they really didn't have anything quite like the music video (as we know it) to use as promotional tool to sell albums and develop and expand on a commercial "brand."

So, Madonna could fairly be seen as the first female megastar . . . of the Video Age.

Of the video age i hear yah. Hope all are remembered.

Guitarhero said:

namepeace said:

"Megastar" takes on a whole different context in the MTV Age.

To be sure, all the pre-MTV artists you mentioned to some degree or another gave incredible TV performances.

But for all their artistic and commercial achievements, they really didn't have anything quite like the music video (as we know it) to use as promotional tool to sell albums and develop and expand on a commercial "brand."

So, Madonna could fairly be seen as the first female megastar . . . of the Video Age.

Of the video age i hear yah. Hope all are remembered.

As long as we have anything to say about it, they will.

Guitarhero said:

mnbvc said:

DaveT said:

MJ never seem to have a proper comeback after Dangerous.

Right. Nevermind HIStory, which sold around 20 mio. copies and the tour that sold 4.5 mio tickets. Also nevermind Invincible, which went to #1 in many countries around the world and still did comparable business to what recent Madonna albums did. Also nevermind the 1 mio. tickets he sold in London alone. And This is it, which became the most successful concert movie. But yeah, he didn't have a proper comeback.

DaveT said:

mnbvc said:

Couldn't you easily argue that has as much to do with MTV (and Michael Jackson leading the way) as much as it does Madonna?

[Edited 3/20/17 7:21am]

Oh, no doubt that was the case ... but it was Madge that took full advantage not Lauper, Summer, Gibson, Houston, etc. Madge picked her collaborators very well, MTV and the video age being just one of them.

Still, while Michael Jackson was a superstar before the MTV video era he was also the first superstar of the MTV video era.

It also goes to show how much someone like Britney Spears owes Michael Jackson, Madonna and Janet Jackson since she literally could not have a career as a pop star without the music video in utilizing sex appeal and dance numbers.

(However, I do not understand why she likes specifically emphasizing Madonna's influence when none of the assorted dance numbers in her videography remotely resemble "Papa Don't Preach", ""Lucky Star", "Express Yourself" or Vogue".)

[Edited 3/20/17 15:25pm]

NorthC said:

Pfff... I'm getting a bit tired of threads like this. Why does it always have to be a competition? Why can't y'all agree that both were great pop stars (not great musicians) and move on?

Slow news day?

PatrickS77 said:

DaveT said:

MJ never seem to have a proper comeback after Dangerous.

Right. Nevermind HIStory, which sold around 20 mio. copies and the tour that sold 4.5 mio tickets. Also nevermind Invincible, which went to #1 in many countries around the world and still did comparable business to what recent Madonna albums did. Also nevermind the 1 mio. tickets he sold in London alone. And This is it, which became the most successful concert movie. But yeah, he didn't have a proper comeback.

See, this always seems to happen whenever there's debate with MJ fans ... snarky comments. Its why I was reluctant to get involved in this thread. We've been having some nice debate, exchanging our opinions in a polite way ... then you have to chuck a sour note in. No wonder people are moving away from these forums.

Anyway ... HIStory, This Is It, Invincible ... as I see it they shifted some units for sure, but I don't think they scaled the same heights as Thriller, Bad and Dangerous. And I'm not even including the dubious happenings going on with MJ outside of his music career which, for some of us, tarnished what he was doing in the studio.

But I think you can argue that Ray of Light to Confessions equaled the success Madge had in the late 80s to early 90s. A proper comeback.

MotownSubdivision said:

DaveT said:

PatrickS77 said:

Right. Nevermind HIStory, which sold around 20 mio. copies and the tour that sold 4.5 mio tickets. Also nevermind Invincible, which went to #1 in many countries around the world and still did comparable business to what recent Madonna albums did. Also nevermind the 1 mio. tickets he sold in London alone. And This is it, which became the most successful concert movie. But yeah, he didn't have a proper comeback.

See, this always seems to happen whenever there's debate with MJ fans ... snarky comments. Its why I was reluctant to get involved in this thread. We've been having some nice debate, exchanging our opinions in a polite way ... then you have to chuck a sour note in. No wonder people are moving away from these forums.

Anyway ... HIStory, This Is It, Invincible ... as I see it they shifted some units for sure, but I don't think they scaled the same heights as Thriller, Bad and Dangerous. And I'm not even including the dubious happenings going on with MJ outside of his music career which, for some of us, tarnished what he was doing in the studio.

But I think you can argue that Ray of Light to Confessions equaled the success Madge had in the late 80s to early 90s. A proper comeback.

Geez. It wasn't me, who said that he was done after Dangerous and never had a comeback. So expect some resistance. HIStory, the album and tour, was every bit the success Bad and Dangerous were, if not bigger. It was his biggest tour. And in that sense it was bigger than Thriller (as Thriller was mainly the album and his success was more confined to the US, than his later successes, which made him more of an international star). Invincible did well, considering the climate, albumsales wise and This is it sold a million tickets in one city and had a recordbreaking cinema audience. So despite the other crap going on, he was doing fine and certainly matched and/or topped whatever Madonna did.

PatrickS77 said:

DaveT said:

See, this always seems to happen whenever there's debate with MJ fans ... snarky comments. Its why I was reluctant to get involved in this thread. We've been having some nice debate, exchanging our opinions in a polite way ... then you have to chuck a sour note in. No wonder people are moving away from these forums.

Anyway ... HIStory, This Is It, Invincible ... as I see it they shifted some units for sure, but I don't think they scaled the same heights as Thriller, Bad and Dangerous. And I'm not even including the dubious happenings going on with MJ outside of his music career which, for some of us, tarnished what he was doing in the studio.

But I think you can argue that Ray of Light to Confessions equaled the success Madge had in the late 80s to early 90s. A proper comeback.

Geez. It wasn't me, who said that he was done after Dangerous and never had a comeback. So expect some resistance. HIStory, the album and tour, was every bit the success Bad and Dangerous were, if not bigger. It was his biggest tour. And in that sense it was bigger than Thriller (as Thriller was mainly the album and his success was more confined to the US, than his later successes, which made him more of an international star). Invincible did well, considering the climate, albumsales wise and This is it sold a million tickets in one city and had a recordbreaking cinema audience. So despite the other crap going on, he was doing fine and certainly matched and/or topped whatever Madonna did.

Friendly resistance and healthy debate, cool beans. Eye rolling, sarcasm ... folks can live without that.

I'll concede HIStory in 1996, the album had some great songs. The tour, despite that fact it was pretty much the same routine MJ used on his other tours, did good numbers to. So I'll bump it to 1996, but with a caveat that people were getting turned off by some of his shtick by then. I certainly had friends who looked at the likes of his Earth Song / Jesus-esque / surrounded-by-kids performances and turned away from MJ. Turning off a chuck of your audience doesn't exactly scream great comeback.

But you can't really compare MJ's post '96 career to Madge. Invincible sold but Justin Beiber can do numbers ... critically it not an album that I've ever heard people rave about, whereas Madge had some of the best albums of her career in this period (Ray of Light, Confessions) as well as tours which offered something different each time and got great reviews. Contrast Madge's career from 1998 onwards with all the legal issues and the bizarre behaviour MJ was displaying and its chalk and cheese.

And would This Is It have done that much business if he hadn't passed away? Granted, we may have seen some O2 shows instead, but there's no way they would have gone without a hitch given his physical and mental state at the time.

MattyJam said:

Threads like this are ridiculous. MJ fans are gonna say MJ, Madonna fans are gonna say Madonna. It's playground squabbling over semantics and it's really petty.

Madonna didn't influence me one jot, because I don't rate her and have no interest in her. MJ influenced me massively, because I'm a big fan.

If we're talking about culturally, well, I have my own opinions about that, which, surprise surprise, happen to align with which of the two artists I rate more highly... just like everyone else in this thread.

It is impossible for fans of either two artists to objectively discuss this subject without factoring in their own personal bias.

Having said that, of course it's MJ and it's not even close.

I'm not a fan of either but u simply can't mention Madonna in the same sentence with Mj.

Mj is the best ther ever was at this "pop" game. Madonna isn't even close.

DaveT said:

DaveT said: