ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Magician Uri Geller, another Jew, was the one who introduced MJ to Martin Bashir for the Living with Michael Jackson documentary.

I always tend to think that Bashir gave Michael the rope but Michael hanged himself. His behaviour in that documentary is ridiculous beyond belief. The man was certifiably insane.

MJ had lots of issues after Invincible bombed across the world, including major financial ones. Nothing good came out of the Bashir documentary which lead to the Arvizzo trial.

MichaelJackson5 said:

ML2016 said:

I always tend to think that Bashir gave Michael the rope but Michael hanged himself. His behaviour in that documentary is ridiculous beyond belief. The man was certifiably insane.

MJ had lots of issues after Invincible bombed across the world, including major financial ones. Nothing good came out of the Bashir documentary which lead to the Arvizzo trial.

The Arvizo trial was the greatest thing that could have happened to MJ. Why? Because any sane person who reads the evidence for five minutes comes to the obvious conclusion that MJ did not molest that boy. A LOT of people started believing MJ was not a child molester because of that trial and how obvious it was that he was 100% innocent even after minimal investigation. There's no sensible person who, upon faced with evidence from that trial, believes the kid and it resulted in a lot of people "coming" to the Jackson side of things.

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

MJ had lots of issues after Invincible bombed across the world, including major financial ones. Nothing good came out of the Bashir documentary which lead to the Arvizzo trial.

The Arvizo trial was the greatest thing that could have happened to MJ. Why? Because any sane person who reads the evidence for five minutes comes to the obvious conclusion that MJ did not molest that boy. A LOT of people started believing MJ was not a child molester because of that trial and how obvious it was that he was 100% innocent even after minimal investigation. There's no sensible person who, upon faced with evidence from that trial, believes the kid and it resulted in a lot of people "coming" to the Jackson side of things.

Did it change people's opinion of the Chandler accusastions? I don't think so. Look, Michael Jackson's career ended when he released They Don't Care About Us from the HIStory album. After that song was boycotted by US stations, it marked the end of his career as a Top 40 singles artist. He only managed another two Top 10 singles on the Hot 100: You Rock My World (one week at No.10) and Love Never Felt So Good (helped by Timberlake fans).

Most of the public didn't even bother following the trial and blindly believed what reporters like Nancy Grace had to say about Jackson.

Also, MJ was the target of intense media ridicule during and after the Invincible album failed to light the world on fire.

Geez, no wonder no one wants to come to the MJ thread any more...

MichaelJackson5 said:

ML2016 said:

The Arvizo trial was the greatest thing that could have happened to MJ. Why? Because any sane person who reads the evidence for five minutes comes to the obvious conclusion that MJ did not molest that boy. A LOT of people started believing MJ was not a child molester because of that trial and how obvious it was that he was 100% innocent even after minimal investigation. There's no sensible person who, upon faced with evidence from that trial, believes the kid and it resulted in a lot of people "coming" to the Jackson side of things.

Did it change people's opinion of the Chandler accusastions? I don't think so. Look, Michael Jackson's career ended when he released They Don't Care About Us from the HIStory album. After that song was boycotted by US stations, it marked the end of his career as a Top 40 singles artist. He only managed another two Top 10 singles on the Hot 100: You Rock My World (one week at No.10) and Love Never Felt So Good (helped by Timberlake fans).

Bullshit. Only fucking americans gave up on him. He still had hits around the world and took the HIStory tour around the world and played to over 4 mio. people.

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Magician Uri Geller, another Jew, was the one who introduced MJ to Martin Bashir for the Living with Michael Jackson documentary.

I always tend to think that Bashir gave Michael the rope but Michael hanged himself. His behaviour in that documentary is ridiculous beyond belief. The man was certifiably insane.

Nah, he's not. If you'd actually listened to him with an open mind, you'd see that most of what he said, made lots of sense. But yes, that documentary was the last nail in the coffin that set about the downward spiral. He really was fine before that.

[Edited 8/18/16 15:16pm]

PatrickS77 said:

PatrickS77 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Did it change people's opinion of the Chandler accusastions? I don't think so. Look, Michael Jackson's career ended when he released They Don't Care About Us from the HIStory album. After that song was boycotted by US stations, it marked the end of his career as a Top 40 singles artist. He only managed another two Top 10 singles on the Hot 100: You Rock My World (one week at No.10) and Love Never Felt So Good (helped by Timberlake fans).

Bullshit. Only fucking americans gave up on him. He still had hits around the world and took the HIStory tour around the world and played to over 4 mio. people.

America did not give up on, without americans buying 25 million copies of Thriller, there is no History for the international community to reflect on

his home country did not accept nor believed in the false image......take the false image out of the equation, and all of his albums after Thriller would have sold more than what they actually did.....

Couple buys MJ cassette tape for 25 cents, discovers hidden treasure http://www.fox46charlotte...5517-story That has happened to me at my local local thrift store.....I found a brand new pair of Jordans from 1994 (who ones he wore in Space Jam 1996) for $15, and a signed David Bowie 1983 tour program, which I got for $1.50 You will never know what you will find.....also at bookfairs and fetes.

[Edited 8/18/16 20:21pm]

[Edited 8/18/16 20:23pm]

MotownSubdivision said:

PatrickS77 said:

Bullshit. Only fucking americans gave up on him. He still had hits around the world and took the HIStory tour around the world and played to over 4 mio. people.

Even then the album still debuted at #1 here, went 7× platinum and spawned 3 Top 5 hits on the US charts. The man even performed at the VMA's that year to nothing but adulation. Yeah, Mike's reputation took a hit but he was still red hot popular.

It's only because Soundscan considers a double album as two that HIStory went 7x platinum in America. Technically, it only sold 3.5 million copies in the US.

Beyond Scream and You Are Not Alone, what other single from HIStory made the Top 5 in the US? MJ was not red hot popular - Scream (the first Michael/Janet duet) only peaked at No. 5. Considering this song was getting support from Janet's fans along with MJ's it should have easily been a US No.1 hit. The accompanying video for Scream was super expensive for it's time.

PatrickS77 said:

aiden said:

PatrickS77 said:

Bullshit. Only fucking americans gave up on him. He still had hits around the world and took the HIStory tour around the world and played to over 4 mio. people.

I have to agree, th history tour was hugely successful (despite the miming) and he had huge hits such as "Blood o the dancefloor" which I'm pretty sure was a number 1 in the Uk. It's a shame about invincible but I think MJ couldn't keep repeating himself even though he had successfully done this in the past.. The well dried up but I still believe he had it in him to make another incredible record if he hadn't passed away.

Blood On The Dance Floor must have been the sound of Europe in 1997 because, imo, it's MJ's worst song, album and video of his adult solo career. The video looks like it was filmed on a $5000 budget in a single afternoon.

And it's not like I was fond of music in the US at the time what with teenybopper crap like Hanson, Backstreet Boys or the post grunge rock acts such as The Smashing Pumpkins or Alanis Morrisette. To my ears, BODF was awful.

Invincible was geared towards urban America which is why Europeans don't seem to enjoy it. Invincible actually contained some great songs, much better than anything on BODF. Break of Dawn still sounds amazingly fresh today.

MichaelJackson5 said:

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

It's only because Soundscan considers a double album as two that HIStory went 7x platinum in America. Technically, it only sold 3.5 million copies in the US.

Beyond Scream and You Are Not Alone, what other single from HIStory made the Top 5 in the US? MJ was not red hot popular - Scream (the first Michael/Janet duet) only peaked at No. 5. Considering this song was getting support from Janet's fans along with MJ's it should have easily been a US No.1 hit. The accompanying video for Scream was super expensive for it's time.

Has Soundscan done that for every double album? "Childhood" is the third single. It hit #5. MJ was not red hot? Then what do call it when an artist is accused of being a child molester and his image is ruined amongst the public yet still has an album debut at #1 and produces 3 Top 5 singles in the US? What do you call it when said disgraced artist performs on a primetime annual event such as the VMAs the same year to nothing but cheers and applause? So what if "Scream" didn't hit #1? Just because you think it should have doesn't mean it should have. It's still a Top 5 hit and the fact that it managed to make it to that level in spite of all that was only going on is impressive as is.

As far as I know Soundscan counts all double albums as two units. It did the same for Outkast's Speakerboxxx/The Love Below in 2003.

Childhood is the B-side for Scream. It's only a Top 5 because of that very reason:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scream/Childhood

If Childhood wasn't shoehorned into the Scream single, there's no way it reaches the Top 5.

If HIStory was hot, how do you explain Stranger in Moscow peaking at No.91? That's MJ's lowest peaking single in his entire adult solo career and even lower than any single he released as a solo artist with Motown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson_singles_discography

His talent as a performer was still there which is why he still brought down the house with his electrifying performance of Dangerous at the 1995 VMAs.

3.5 Million for Michael Jackson is disappointing. He only released an album every 4-5 years after Thriller so a Michael Jackson album is expected to sell at least 6-7 million units with around 7 Top 40 hits and a chart run of two years.

Any lesser entertainer would have disappeared after allegations of child molestation which is a testament to MJ's iconic status in the music industry but they still inflicted massive damage to his career, especially in North America. And after releasing They Don't Care About Us, MJ was officially done in America. He was virtually non-existant for the remainder of the 90s and 2000.

MichaelJackson5 said:

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

As far as I know Soundscan counts all double albums as two units. It did the same for Outkast's Speakerboxxx/The Love Below in 2003.

Childhood is the B-side for Scream. It's only a Top 5 because of that very reason:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scream/Childhood

If Childhood wasn't shoehorned into the Scream single, there's no way it reaches the Top 5.

If HIStory was hot, how do you explain Stranger in Moscow peaking at No.91? That's MJ's lowest peaking single in his entire adult solo career and even lower than any single he woureleased as a solo artist with Motown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson_singles_discography

His talent as a performer was still there which is why he still brought down the house with his electrifying performance of Dangerous at the 1995 VMAs.

3.5 Million for Michael Jackson is disappointing. He only released an album every 4-5 years after Thriller so a Michael Jackson album is expected to sell at least 6-7 million units with around 7 Top 40 hits and a chart run of two years.

Any lesser entertainer would have disappeared after allegations of child molestation which is a testament to MJ's iconic status in the music industry but they still inflicted massive damage to his career, especially in North America. And after releasing They Don't Care About Us, MJ was officially done in America. He was virtually non-existant for the remainder of the 90s and 2000.

So you agree that he was still popular even after the allegations?

MJ still had fans after the 1993 allegations. He still had plenty of fans after he released They Don't Care About Us. But after that song, the media establishment would make certain that his impact as an artist would never reach their potential again in America. They accomplished that by having his every move publicly ridiculed, and limiting the airplay of his singles from the Invincible album.

Scorp said:

PatrickS77 said:

Bullshit. Only fucking americans gave up on him. He still had hits around the world and took the HIStory tour around the world and played to over 4 mio. people.

America did not give up on, without americans buying 25 million copies of Thriller, there is no History for the international community to reflect on

his home country did not accept nor believed in the false image......take the false image out of the equation, and all of his albums after Thriller would have sold more than what they actually did.....

Yes. They did give up on him. Hence the bigger success he had outside of his homecoutnry.

MichaelJackson5 said:

aiden said:

PatrickS77 said: I have to agree, th history tour was hugely successful (despite the miming) and he had huge hits such as "Blood o the dancefloor" which I'm pretty sure was a number 1 in the Uk. It's a shame about invincible but I think MJ couldn't keep repeating himself even though he had successfully done this in the past.. The well dried up but I still believe he had it in him to make another incredible record if he hadn't passed away.

Blood On The Dance Floor must have been the sound of Europe in 1997 because, imo, it's MJ's worst song, album and video of his adult solo career. The video looks like it was filmed on a $5000 budget in a single afternoon.

And it's not like I was fond of music in the US at the time what with teenybopper crap like Hanson, Backstreet Boys or the post grunge rock acts such as The Smashing Pumpkins or Alanis Morrisette. To my ears, BODF was awful.

Invincible was geared towards urban America which is why Europeans don't seem to enjoy it. Invincible actually contained some great songs, much better than anything on BODF. Break of Dawn still sounds amazingly fresh today.

Nah, it's not. The five new songs are all on point and I actually would have wished he would follow in that direction instead of what he did on Invincible, which was a step back. After and compared to HIStory that album was a disappointment (for MJ's standards). On it's own merit, it's not that bad, after all.

MichaelJackson5 said:

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said: Has Soundscan done that for every double album? "Childhood" is the third single. It hit #5. MJ was not red hot? Then what do call it when an artist is accused of being a child molester and his image is ruined amongst the public yet still has an album debut at #1 and produces 3 Top 5 singles in the US? What do you call it when said disgraced artist performs on a primetime annual event such as the VMAs the same year to nothing but cheers and applause? So what if "Scream" didn't hit #1? Just because you think it should have doesn't mean it should have. It's still a Top 5 hit and the fact that it managed to make it to that level in spite of all that was only going on is impressive as is.

As far as I know Soundscan counts all double albums as two units. It did the same for Outkast's Speakerboxxx/The Love Below in 2003.

Childhood is the B-side for Scream. It's only a Top 5 because of that very reason:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scream/Childhood

If Childhood wasn't shoehorned into the Scream single, there's no way it reaches the Top 5.

If HIStory was hot, how do you explain Stranger in Moscow peaking at No.91? That's MJ's lowest peaking single in his entire adult solo career and even lower than any single he released as a solo artist with Motown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson_singles_discography

His talent as a performer was still there which is why he still brought down the house with his electrifying performance of Dangerous at the 1995 VMAs.

3.5 Million for Michael Jackson is disappointing. He only released an album every 4-5 years after Thriller so a Michael Jackson album is expected to sell at least 6-7 million units with around 7 Top 40 hits and a chart run of two years.

Any lesser entertainer would have disappeared after allegations of child molestation which is a testament to MJ's iconic status in the music industry but they still inflicted massive damage to his career, especially in North America. And after releasing They Don't Care About Us, MJ was officially done in America. He was virtually non-existant for the remainder of the 90s and 2000.

Wrong song for the wrong crowd? And really, back in the day many didn't like the fact that they had to double dip for songs and overpay for songs they already had. The album probably would have done better, had there been an option to buy only the new songs.

And yes, obviously the allegations hurt him badly and all things considered he did much better than what could have been expected.

Well, his 30th Anniversary show, despite madly expensive tickets was a huge success in ticket sales and TV ratings.

PatrickS77 said:

PatrickS77 said:

PatrickS77 said:

= you gave up on and abandoned him.

Many Michael Jackson fans in North America abandoned him after he came out with a new face for the Bad Album - new nose, new chin, tatooed eyeline, thinner lips - he looked like a mulatto by 1987 and he never needed to have those changes when the entire world, especially in North America, already were familiar with his face during the Thriller Era.

***********************

Any artist, would have suffered the same loss of fans, let alone the biggest selling artist in 1983-84, an artist that broke the world record held by the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack, racking up 38.5 million units in sales of Thriller in a two year span.

***********************

Maybe the racial climate is different in Europe but what MJ did polarized people in America, especially his African American fan base who were very upset with the changes he made to his face to look more Eurocentric back in 1986-87.

************************

On top of that, MJ decided to plant stories in the tabloids about sleeping in an O2 chamber, about wanting to purchase John Merrick's remains, about building a shrine to Liz Taylor. He thought it would make the tabloids look foolish but the mainstream media picked up those stories and ran with them which led to his new nick name, Wacko Jacko.

************************

Fans such as Scorp and I didn't abandon Michael Jackson. The ones turned off by his major change in appearance, those that could no longer support a man who clearly didn't love himself or his own heritage - those are the ones that stopped purchasing his albums and singles from Bad onward.

************************

Any entertainer that makes radical changes to their appearance risks a major backlash and damage to their career. Jennifer Grey, of Dirty Dancing fame, had extensive cosmetic surgery and was unrecognizable and she stopped receiving roles in big budget movies.

************************

Maybe the reason that Invincible was geared less towards the European fans is that MJ wanted to reconnect with his original fans, the ones that supported him up until Thriller. Can't really blame him as America is the biggest market on earth and his country of origin.

[Edited 8/19/16 21:07pm]

[Edited 8/19/16 21:08pm]

MichaelJackson5 said:

bboy87 said:

http://www.mjvibe.com/new...l-jackson/ New Magazine: Classic Pop Presents: Michael Jackson August 18, 2016 • In this special edition 132-page magazine, we turn our attention to Michael Jackson – the undisputed King Of Pop – and examine his astronomical career decade by decade from his early days alongside his brothers in The Jackson 5 right through to his turbulent final years and the ill-fated ‘This Is It’ shows that were due to take place in London. We’re really excited to bring you our new special edition magazine, Classic Pop Presents: Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson is one of the most identifiable cultural icons of the 20th and 21st centuries, and we set out to celebrate every facet of an absorbing and prolific life in pop with this very special magazine. We take a step back and pay tribute to the artists that inspired this icon. Michael created personas for every song, album and video and took inspiration from acting legends like Charlie Chaplin and Laurence Olivier, as much as musicians like James Brown. In Annemarie Latour’s blog Tramping with Chaplin, she draws parallels from Jackson’s and Chaplin’s lives where childhood sorrow and pain were a spark of inspiration for clowning, acting and performing for both of them. Fred Astaire was also a huge influence to Michael’s sense of cabaret and on-stage joie de vivre and their love for each other is well-documented. We’ve all been influenced by Michael Jackson but we bring you all of HIS influences throughout his life and career. The magazine goes on sale on 18th August but as a valued subscriber of Classic Pop magazine, we are giving you the first opportunity to secure your copy before it hits the shops.

Cheers bro.

bboy87 said:

http://www.mjvibe.com/new...l-jackson/ New Magazine: Classic Pop Presents: Michael Jackson August 18, 2016 • In this special edition 132-page magazine, we turn our attention to Michael Jackson – the undisputed King Of Pop – and examine his astronomical career decade by decade from his early days alongside his brothers in The Jackson 5 right through to his turbulent final years and the ill-fated ‘This Is It’ shows that were due to take place in London. We’re really excited to bring you our new special edition magazine, Classic Pop Presents: Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson is one of the most identifiable cultural icons of the 20th and 21st centuries, and we set out to celebrate every facet of an absorbing and prolific life in pop with this very special magazine. We take a step back and pay tribute to the artists that inspired this icon. Michael created personas for every song, album and video and took inspiration from acting legends like Charlie Chaplin and Laurence Olivier, as much as musicians like James Brown. In Annemarie Latour’s blog Tramping with Chaplin, she draws parallels from Jackson’s and Chaplin’s lives where childhood sorrow and pain were a spark of inspiration for clowning, acting and performing for both of them. Fred Astaire was also a huge influence to Michael’s sense of cabaret and on-stage joie de vivre and their love for each other is well-documented. We’ve all been influenced by Michael Jackson but we bring you all of HIS influences throughout his life and career. The magazine goes on sale on 18th August but as a valued subscriber of Classic Pop magazine, we are giving you the first opportunity to secure your copy before it hits the shops.

Thanks, I got the Classic Pop Presents: Prince A Celebration.....so it looks promising and I will check it out.

[Edited 8/20/16 20:14pm]