MichaelJackson5 said:

PatrickS77 said:

= you gave up on and abandoned him.

Many Michael Jackson fans in North America abandoned him after he came out with a new face for the Bad Album - new nose, new chin, tatooed eyeline, thinner lips - he looked like a mulatto by 1987 and he never needed to have those changes when the entire world, especially in North America, already were familiar with his face during the Thriller Era.

***********************

Any artist, would have suffered the same loss of fans, let alone the biggest selling artist in 1983-84, an artist that broke the world record held by the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack, racking up 38.5 million units in sales of Thriller in a two year span.

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Maybe the racial climate is different in Europe but what MJ did polarized people in America, especially his African American fan base who were very upset with the changes he made to his face to look more Eurocentric back in 1986-87.

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On top of that, MJ decided to plant stories in the tabloids about sleeping in an O2 chamber, about wanting to purchase John Merrick's remains, about building a shrine to Liz Taylor. He thought it would make the tabloids look foolish but the mainstream media picked up those stories and ran with them which led to his new nick name, Wacko Jacko.

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Fans such as Scorp and I didn't abandon Michael Jackson. The ones turned off by his major change in appearance, those that could no longer support a man who clearly didn't love himself or his own heritage - those are the ones that stopped purchasing his albums and singles from Bad onward.

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Any entertainer that makes radical changes to their appearance risks a major backlash and damage to their career. Jennifer Grey, of Dirty Dancing fame, had extensive cosmetic surgery and was unrecognizable and she stopped receiving roles in big budget movies.

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Maybe the reason that Invincible was geared less towards the European fans is that MJ wanted to reconnect with his original fans, the ones that supported him up until Thriller. Can't really blame him as America is the biggest market on earth and his country of origin.

[Edited 8/19/16 21:07pm]

[Edited 8/19/16 21:08pm]

all true points,

as MichaelJackson5 just mentioned, Michael Jackson isn't being singled out, any artist would have experienced a major dropoff if his/her appearance changed the way it did, and so drastically

it comes down if you believed in the false image, you're going to try and uphold the narrative of the past quarter century, or if you don't believe in the false image, you will not try and uphold that same narrative

that's what's so unfortunate about this story and the way it all has ended, it never had to be the way.....take the false image out of the equation, it's a guarantee, a shoe-in, a certainty that every single one of Michael Jackson's albums post-Thriller would have sold way more than they actually did, there's no way this would have not been the case, his albums would not have precipitously fell from the top of the charts the way they did only weeks after reaching the top......

Thriller SHOULD NOT have been his career pinnacle, this is why so many of the fans of the past quarter century keep trying to mention and highlight what he accomplished post-Thriller where they would not be in such a situation if the false image never existed......

when you lose half of your fanbase right after dropping the greatest selling album of all time, that can not be blamed on media bias, influence, scutiny, criticism....that alone is not gonna sway people to refrain from buying your album.......it's not like MJ's music featured derogatory lyrical content, there was a poignant message that people responded to from day one when he fronted the Jackson Five. It wasn't like he was in his 50s when he dropped BAD, he was only 29 years old

From the massive following MJ cultivated in his home country and around the globe with Thriller, the stage was set for that following to expand, THIS is what led MJ to believe his next album BAD would surpass Thriller, he was actually thinking logically in reaching that conclusion. If he maintains that current following while generating a new generation of music fans, BAD would have did just that, but the EXACT OPPOSITE occurred, where he lost 22 million people who bought Thriller, with 18-20 million of those fans he lost were right here in the United States alone, and ironically, BAD's international sales did not surpass the sales of Thriller, he lost fans internationally too, and this career trajectory continued with each subsequent album afterwards where he would lost approximately 5 million fans each time from what he had before

so during the run of each album, he would give explanation of why he was losing fans from the album that came before it, which caused greater levels of division between fans in the process, but it all stemmed from the the 50% of the fan support he lost after Thriller. So what started in 1987 and ended in 2009, in that 22 year span, what you have left is the majority of his current following being placed in a position in upholding the false narrative that he drove since that time, but it's not doing any good as we see book after book after book after book rehashing the same stuff over and over and over again but not willing or written from a perspective unwilling to dig deep in the heart of the matter to explain what really happened to Michael Jackson over time, and the root cause of it

The allegations is not really the blame because he lost half his fan support six years prior. The truth of the matter is he was pushed into making a life/career defininig choice by undergoing a physical transformation the likes we've never seen and the transformation alone is what caused his career to decline, there's no getting around that........and when he saw the response to it in his home country during the years of BAD, he focused his attention on becoming an exclusive international artist w/the hopes of compensating for the sales he lost by cultivating a new following that would embrace the false image w/out realizing what was really going on with him in truth, and why BAD did not sale the way he had expected, and when that didn't work with DANGEROUS, this is the moment where he brought the current narrative to life that has prolonged to this very day.

This is when his following of the present and his following of the past became divided when just eight years prior, his support was not fragmented in any way

But what's funny is that while giving the impression he no longer needed the support of his following from Thriller and years before, he spent the remainder of this career doing just that in context and would begin to show regret in undergoing the full transformation when we really start listening to the lyrics in his songs such as SCREAM and THEY DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT US and STRANGER IN MOSCOW. But he couldn't deviate from the false image by that point because he enjoyed the adulation from the current support for projecting it and was forced to practically carry it on

what's most fortunate about this whole situation is that Michael Jackson definitely reach his potential but was not allowed to fulfill his promise, and this happened way before 2009, it happened the moment he released the follow up to the greatest selling album of all time. That should make us all pause and start to reconsider our positions on everything we beleive, and only when we start acknowledging the truth of what really happened to this immensely talented performer and what caused it, then the intent of his musical message as well as his legacy will resonate the way it was meant to

The estate in of itself can not accomplish this

[Edited 8/21/16 8:21am]

“‘I Ain’t Scared of No Sheets’: Re-screening Black Masculinity in Michael Jackson’s Black or White.” Journal of Popular Music Studies, 27.1 (March 2015). »

Scorp said:

Can we all just agree that the change in appearance, the allegations, the eccentric behavior, and also the change in the music industry all played a role in Michael's decline in the US?

Plus, as much as some of us are fans, we have to admit he was never going to outsell Thriller. It was a one time phenomenom. Every huge pop artist has that one project that has does numbers that are bigger than usual, just that his changed the music industry.

Prince did over 24 million with Purple Rain but only went gold by the time Lovesexy rolled around. George Michael did 25 million with Faith, LWP sold 8 million (and barely 2 million here in the states and by the time he was outed, was almost blacklisted here). That's how things go

Cloudbuster said:

“‘I Ain’t Scared of No Sheets’: Re-screening Black Masculinity in Michael Jackson’s Black or White.” Journal of Popular Music Studies, 27.1 (March 2015). »

good article

The Fourth Annual Michael Jackson ONE Celebration of The King of Pop’s Birthday

Details
With Michael’s birthday falling on a Monday this year, the Estate of Michael Jackson and Cirque du Soleil decided to make the 4th annual Michael Jackson ONE celebration in honor of the King of Pop’s birthday a three day affair starting on Saturday, August 27.

There will be a special meet and greet with members of the Estate team and other special guests before the 7pm performance on each of Saturday, Sunday and, of course, Monday night. And each meet and greet will offer something unique. During the meet and greet on Saturday evening, the Estate, joined by members of the Michael Jackson ONE cast, will reveal a change to the décor of the theater lobby that will be seen for the first time by those attending that evening’s performances.More details about what that change is and on the other two meet and greet events will be posted in the coming weeks.

And for the afternoon of Michael’s birthday, there will be a book signing hosted by the Michael Jackson ONE Boutique, a special performance by the Michael Jackson ONE cast in the theater and a super special activity that gives a few very lucky Michael Jackson fans an opportunity to display their knowledge of Michael’s music. There will also be a special Michael Jackson ONE Commemorative Ticket for these shows that guests will be able to keep as a souvenir. More details on Monday afternoon’s activities and how to be chosen as one of those lucky fans will be coming soon.

All activities during the 3 days will be open to those attending any of the performances of Michael Jackson ONE on the Saturday, Sunday and Monday of the celebration and we are pleased to once also extend an exclusive offer from Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino for the birthday week including special room rates and a gift bag.

Gather together with other Michael Jackson fans for a festive celebration in Las Vegas and spend all or part of the 3-day MJ weekend enjoying the city, the Mandalay Bay property and, of course, Michael Jackson ONE, an electrifying and heartfelt tribute to the work, innovative spirit, and legacy of Michael Jackson – the King of Pop.

UPDATE: If you have been honing your knowledge of Michael’s music for the “super special activity” on Monday, August 29, we can now tell you that are invited to join representatives of the Estate of Michael Jackson and their special guests at the Michael Jackson ONE Theater at Mandalay Bay for a special NAME THAT MICHAEL JACKSON TUNE at 3 p.m. on August 29. There will be a special guest emcee, prizes, and lots of fun for fans of all ages! There will be a total of nine lucky fans chosen to participate in the competition. Randomly chosen contestants will compete to correctly (and quickly!) identify snippets of Michael Jackson’s music, and be named the Grand Prize Winner. Are you ready to put your knowledge of Michael Jackson’s music to the ultimate test? Register now for the chance to take home the Grand Prize Pack and bragging rights! Competition is open to anyone 13 years of age or older. Registration will be open until 10 p.m. PST on August 28th.
http://goo.gl/forms/MYFyfw4hzW5eqFtC3

UPDATE: Author Michael Bush, who worked as designer and dresser for Michael Jackson for 25 years and was also his friend, will make an encore appearance at this year’s Michael Jackson ONE Birthday Celebration! He will sign copies of his book ‘The King of Style: Dressing Michael Jackson’ on Monday, August 29. The book recounts Michael Bush’s experiences working with Michael Jackson and offers an in-depth behind-the-scenes look at the creation of some of the clothes Bush and his partner, Dennis Tompkins, created for Michael to wear, both on and off the stage.

UPDATE: Due to unforeseen circumstances the previously announced appearance by Nate Giorgio has been canceled. However, his newly created pieces of art based on the key art for Michael Jackson ONE will be on display for the first time as part of the birthday weekend and giclees of each piece will be available for purchase. Continue to check this page for more updates and activities for this years' Michael Jackson ONE Birthday Celebration.

UPDATE: Kevin Antunes, Musical Director for Michael Jackson ONE (and Michael Jackson THE IMMORTAL World Tour), will announce the participants and also act as emcee for NAME THAT MICHAEL JACKSON TUNE on Michael’s birthday, Monday, August 29! One lucky “grand prize” winner will receive a $200 credit to spend in the Michael Jackson ONE Boutique and will also have the opportunity to go backstage after the show to have a private meet and greet and photo with the cast of Michael Jackson ONE! The 2 runner ups will each receive their own gift bags from the Michael Jackson ONE Boutique, each worth $100. Think you have what it takes to win? Sign up now!http://goo.gl/forms/MYFyfw4hzW5eqFtC3

UPDATE: Last week, we revealed a new piece of Michael Jackson memorabilia on loan from the Michael Jackson Estate which is on display in the main Mandalay Bay lobby – the HIStory statue used on Michael’s HIStory Tour. Another classic piece of memorabilia, also on loan from the Michael Jackson Estate,will be placed on display in the lobby of The Michael Jackson ONE Theater and the unveiling of this piece will be made by representatives of the Estate during the pre-show meet & greet on Saturday, August 27! Can you guess what this might be? Keep checking back to find out what you’ll see!

Check back every Monday for the next update on the birthday weekend activities!

To book rooms, visit Mandalay Bay (http://smarturl.it/mbmj) and to purchase tickets, visit Cirque du Soleil (http://smarturl.it/mj_cirquedusoleil).

https://www.facebook.com/...090508470/

bboy87 said:

MotownSubdivision said:

bboy87 said:

Can we all just agree that the change in appearance, the allegations, the eccentric behavior, and also the change in the music industry all played a role in Michael's decline in the US?

Plus, as much as some of us are fans, we have to admit he was never going to outsell Thriller. It was a one time phenomenom. Every huge pop artist has that one project that has does numbers that are bigger than usual, just that his changed the music industry.

Prince did over 24 million with Purple Rain but only went gold by the time Lovesexy rolled around. George Michael did 25 million with Faith, LWP sold 8 million (and barely 2 million here in the states and by the time he was outed, was almost blacklisted here). That's how things go

Exactly. Some people seem to think that because he never succeeded at the impossible and topped Thriller's sales, every subsequent album of his was a failure and that he wasn't popular anymore. Quite frankly, it's foolish to believe that someone could maintain that kind of popularity for the duration of their careers. Every album post-Thriller went multi-platinum and were internationally successful, most even setting and/or breaking records of some kind but because MJ didn't outsell the greatest selling album of all time, some people talk as though he was suddenly some has been reduced to playing at local clubs and bars.

SO TRUE! Great points! I am so sick and tired of people trashing all of Michael's accomplishments after Thriller. Thriller was a once in a life time event and success. Nobody was never going to top that, not even Michael. I also think its absurd to argue that this was Michael fault without considering the change in music industry as well as other factors beyond just him specifically.

MotownSubdivision said:

bboy87 said:

Can we all just agree that the change in appearance, the allegations, the eccentric behavior, and also the change in the music industry all played a role in Michael's decline in the US?

Plus, as much as some of us are fans, we have to admit he was never going to outsell Thriller. It was a one time phenomenom. Every huge pop artist has that one project that has does numbers that are bigger than usual, just that his changed the music industry.

Prince did over 24 million with Purple Rain but only went gold by the time Lovesexy rolled around. George Michael did 25 million with Faith, LWP sold 8 million (and barely 2 million here in the states and by the time he was outed, was almost blacklisted here). That's how things go

Exactly. Some people seem to think that because he never succeeded at the impossible and topped Thriller's sales, every subsequent album of his was a failure and that he wasn't popular anymore. Quite frankly, it's foolish to believe that someone could maintain that kind of popularity for the duration of their careers. Every album post-Thriller went multi-platinum and were internationally successful, most even setting and/or breaking records of some kind but because MJ didn't outsell the greatest selling album of all time, some people talk as though he was suddenly some has been reduced to playing at local clubs and bars.

Indeed, so sick of that, actually i think that Thriller should have never ever sold as much as it did, it was his curse.

[Edited 8/21/16 16:40pm]

I never really cared about his racial appearance then, just the fact, his music was still perfect.

.

I reallyw ant the Classic Pop magazine, if we get it here in New Zealand, it will be November and even later. It is only now Prince tribute issues are filtering through. I mean our shops are so slow they still have Bowie tribute issues on sale with "Just arrived" stickers on them.

MotownSubdivision said:

bboy87 said:

Can we all just agree that the change in appearance, the allegations, the eccentric behavior, and also the change in the music industry all played a role in Michael's decline in the US?

Plus, as much as some of us are fans, we have to admit he was never going to outsell Thriller. It was a one time phenomenom. Every huge pop artist has that one project that has does numbers that are bigger than usual, just that his changed the music industry.

Prince did over 24 million with Purple Rain but only went gold by the time Lovesexy rolled around. George Michael did 25 million with Faith, LWP sold 8 million (and barely 2 million here in the states and by the time he was outed, was almost blacklisted here). That's how things go

Exactly. Some people seem to think that because he never succeeded at the impossible and topped Thriller's sales, every subsequent album of his was a failure and that he wasn't popular anymore. Quite frankly, it's foolish to believe that someone could maintain that kind of popularity for the duration of their careers. Every album post-Thriller went multi-platinum and were internationally successful, most even setting and/or breaking records of some kind but because MJ didn't outsell the greatest selling album of all time, some people talk as though he was suddenly some has been reduced to playing at local clubs and bars.

that's ironic because at every chance, fans still go out of their way to prove how popular he still is

BAD sold 16 million copies worldwide 2 months after its release, even w/the supposed change on the musical landscape, even w/the rise of hip-hop, well on pace to outsell THRILLER buy a mile where THRILLER was released w/nowhere near the anticipation in comparison.

MJ sure thought BAD was a failure in his eyes because he fired everyone in sight, producer, manager, the whole nine

then with DANGEROUS not meeting expectations, he went full bore making one public appearance after another, and scheduling that interview with Oprah to boost sales....

ML2016 said:

Are there any new news about LMP's divorce? I remember when she portrayed Lockwood as the perfect man for her while trashing MJ. Life is so ironic...

Well according to the tabloids LMP is in rehab for pill and alcohol addiction......her people haven't confirmed it......so it must be true

[Edited 8/21/16 21:40pm]

mjscarousal said:

MotownSubdivision said:

bboy87 said: Exactly. Some people seem to think that because he never succeeded at the impossible and topped Thriller's sales, every subsequent album of his was a failure and that he wasn't popular anymore. Quite frankly, it's foolish to believe that someone could maintain that kind of popularity for the duration of their careers. Every album post-Thriller went multi-platinum and were internationally successful, most even setting and/or breaking records of some kind but because MJ didn't outsell the greatest selling album of all time, some people talk as though he was suddenly some has been reduced to playing at local clubs and bars.

SO TRUE! Great points! I am so sick and tired of people trashing all of Michael's accomplishments after Thriller. Thriller was a once in a life time event and success. Nobody was never going to top that, not even Michael. I also think its absurd to argue that this was Michael fault without considering the change in music industry as well as other factors beyond just him specifically.

noone stays on top forever.

Goddess4Real said:

mjscarousal said:

SO TRUE! Great points! I am so sick and tired of people trashing all of Michael's accomplishments after Thriller. Thriller was a once in a life time event and success. Nobody was never going to top that, not even Michael. I also think its absurd to argue that this was Michael fault without considering the change in music industry as well as other factors beyond just him specifically.

noone stays on top forever.

It's time for myths to end.

bboy87 said:

good article

One of Vogel's best.

From Throne to Wilderness: Michael Jackson’s ‘Stranger in Moscow’ and the Foucauldian Outlaw »

Goddess4Real said:

mjscarousal said:

SO TRUE! Great points! I am so sick and tired of people trashing all of Michael's accomplishments after Thriller. Thriller was a once in a life time event and success. Nobody was never going to top that, not even Michael. I also think its absurd to argue that this was Michael fault without considering the change in music industry as well as other factors beyond just him specifically.

noone stays on top forever.

Nobody stays on top forever?

Well for the past 7 years, post after post after post after post after post is highlighted that he still is on top as a posthumous artist........still saying that he's the best to this day

If Michael Jackson had maintained the support of the tremendously following he garnered up to Thriller, Bad would have sold more than it did, way more........Dangerous would have sold more than it did....History would have sold more than it did, even as a double disc set.......and Invicible would have sold more than it did, way more

He never would have did the interview with Oprah to boost record sales, he never would have did the prime time interview with Diane Sawyer to try and assure sales of an album that wasn't even released yet, and he would never have done the Bashir Documentary to try and restore his image......or featuring other contemporary artists/celebrities in his videos to try and regain what he knew he lost......none of those instances would have been necessary.....

to suggest that he could not have maintain what he had achieve early on is to discredit the impact he actually had, and that audience. The music industry was changing during the years of OTW and Thriller and it had no bearing on the eventual outcome. To say Thriller was some fluke discredits Michael Jackson because that album was 14 years in the making, it was no accident

he maintains that american following, there wouldn't be this push to make sure his work post-Thriller is held in the same esteem, the same breath......everything would have spoke for itself........

[Edited 8/22/16 3:59am]

Scorp said:

bboy87 said:

bboy87 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

bboy87 said:

Can we all just agree that the change in appearance, the allegations, the eccentric behavior, and also the change in the music industry all played a role in Michael's decline in the US?

Plus, as much as some of us are fans, we have to admit he was never going to outsell Thriller. It was a one time phenomenom. Every huge pop artist has that one project that has does numbers that are bigger than usual, just that his changed the music industry.

Prince did over 24 million with Purple Rain but only went gold by the time Lovesexy rolled around. George Michael did 25 million with Faith, LWP sold 8 million (and barely 2 million here in the states and by the time he was outed, was almost blacklisted here). That's how things go

Nuff said.

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

I remember when MJ fans would compare Thriller to the Titanic movie and concluded that James Cameron could never top it so why should we have expected Jackson to top Thriller. Then Avatar was released and they never used that argument again.

Where that comparison fails is that many didn't think MJ could top Off The Wall and he put that argument to rest with Thriller. If anything OTW is The Titanic and Thriller is Avatar. MJ had nothing more to prove after OTW just like James Cameron had nothing more to prove after The Titanic but did anyway.

For me, OTW is more like Cameron's Terminator 2. The reason I feel Bad wasn't a success in America (6 million units in 2 years) is because it was one of the most anticipated albums in the history of pop music.

Many artists could only dream of selling 6 million copies of an album but this is Michael Jackson we're talking about with Bad being only the solo third album he released with Epic Records. If he was happy with those sales, he'd have stuck with Quincy Jones for Dangerous.

Janelle Monae Pays Homage To The Jackson 5 On “Hum Along & Dance (Gotta Get Down).” http://www.vibe.com/2016/...oundtrack/ I really like this and I can't wait to see Hidden Figures its an important film about the space race and by those who played a very major part.

[Edited 8/22/16 20:30pm]

[Edited 8/22/16 20:53pm]

MichaelJackson5 said:

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said: Where that comparison fails is that many didn't think MJ could top Off The Wall and he put that argument to rest with Thriller. If anything OTW is The Titanic and Thriller is Avatar. MJ had nothing more to prove after OTW just like James Cameron had nothing more to prove after The Titanic but did anyway.

For me, OTW is more like Cameron's Terminator 2. The reason I feel Bad wasn't a success in America (6 million units in 2 years) is because it was one of the most anticipated albums in the history of pop music.

Many artists could only dream of selling 6 million copies of an album but this is Michael Jackson we're talking about with Bad being only the solo third album he released with Epic Records. If he was happy with those sales, he'd have stuck with Quincy Jones for Dangerous.

Or he was going to split from Q no matter what.

bboy87 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

For me, OTW is more like Cameron's Terminator 2. The reason I feel Bad wasn't a success in America (6 million units in 2 years) is because it was one of the most anticipated albums in the history of pop music.

Many artists could only dream of selling 6 million copies of an album but this is Michael Jackson we're talking about with Bad being only the solo third album he released with Epic Records. If he was happy with those sales, he'd have stuck with Quincy Jones for Dangerous.

Or he was going to split from Q no matter what.

when BAD didn't meet his expectations, everyone's head went to rollin, which the handwriting was on the wall, Frank Dileo was gone as well as Quincy Jones

but as he began working on his last studio album that became known as Invincible, during the spring of 1999, when he was searching for a producer, Rodney Jerkins was not his first choice, MJ was looking to reunite with Quincy Jones to "re-create the magic"......

just as he reunited with John Landis to try and recreate the magic of the Thriller video as he was beginning to work on the Black and White video

bboy87 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

bboy87 said:

Or he was going to split from Q no matter what.

Quincy Jones was integral to MJ's success the way George Martin is viewed as the 5th Beatle. There was a special chemistry between Jackson and Jones. Had Jones been involved with Dangerous he would have made the album more uniform removing filler songs such as Gone Too Soon which should have been a b-side of a single at most. Bad, while not as great as Thriller, was tight. Every song on it was strong enough to be a single. Even Leave Me Alone, which was a bonus for the CD. Had Bad managed to sell 25 million units in the US I don't see MJ ditching him for Teddy Riley. At this stage MJ was following music trends as New Jack had been established in the late 80s by others like Bobby Brown.

After Thriller MJ's priority was sales. Selling. He should have focused on making great music. Instead, he became obsessed with sales and made music accordingly. Thus his music became fast-food-easy-listening-music, thought especially to sell as much as possible. He confined himself to what would sell and whatever was popular with the goal of selling, selling, selling. Hence the decline in the great music until Thriller.