just found out she had help to write those hits...

CynicKill said:

He looks good here:

I have always said he should have had none.. But if he had some then Off the Wall was more than enough. And definitely no more than "Thriller". It wasn't good for his health either.

DonRants said:

Scorp said:

DonRants said: Jordan been retired for 12 years and his retro shoes are still the #1 sneaker on the planet. Lollll Cats are still wearing baggy shorts because of Jordan Ive been listening to Michael Jackson's music just about my entire life and it was never because of anything to do with the image he kicked out, but because of his talent and the music. Thats all I needed When Motown 25 hit, Michael didnt need to create this big hoopla to promote it, the magic created itself, it captured the imagination of the country naturally [Edited 10/6/15 17:56pm]

I believe we have to let Jackson be Jackson. Appreciate him as an individual and singular human being and artist. Too many times I see comparisons comparing him to Prince, to Jordan, to whoever. I try not to do that.

Now having said that, would I have ever thought that during the "Thriller" period MJ was going to become what he became? Absolutely not...but I am not him.

DonRants said:

Scorp said:

DonRants said: Jordan been retired for 12 years and his retro shoes are still the #1 sneaker on the planet. Lollll Cats are still wearing baggy shorts because of Jordan Ive been listening to Michael Jackson's music just about my entire life and it was never because of anything to do with the image he kicked out, but because of his talent and the music. Thats all I needed When Motown 25 hit, Michael didnt need to create this big hoopla to promote it, the magic created itself, it captured the imagination of the country naturally [Edited 10/6/15 17:56pm]

I believe we have to let Jackson be Jackson. Appreciate him as an individual and singular human being and artist. Too many times I see comparisons comparing him to Prince, to Jordan, to whoever. I try not to do that.

Now having said that, would I have ever thought that during the "Thriller" period MJ was going to become what he became? Absolutely not...but I am not him.

Scorp makes some good points. Even when I first heard The Girl is Mine at the local YMCA, I was thinking that McCartney was working with another legend after his duet with Stevie Wonder. Even before the Michael-Mania that ensued, I already knew him and considered him a legend.

What happened after Thriller was entirely destructive to the Michael Jackson brand image, the Michael Jackson legend, to MJ's mental and physical health.

In the Bad Era, his name was associated with weirdness and his face was despised by a large part of the American public.

What he achieved with Thriller, as a black man, will always be recognized as a breakthrough in every way imaginable.

There was no need for the circus-freak image he projected to the world, starting with Bad. I remember reading articles in British music magazines where the writer is baffled and asking "wasn't this guy highly respected just three years ago?".

There were year end polls for 1987 on Rolling Stone magazine and MJ was voted as least welcome comeback, Bad was voted least welcome album. He was also voted most welcome too but he generated a lot of animosity towards himself due to his transformed face.

If Taylor Swift disappeared for three years and resurfaced looking like a Chinese woman, would her fans all still support her? I don't think so. He's lucky his European and Japanese fans still supported him or Bad would've been a major failure.

[Edited 10/6/15 19:24pm]

MichaelJackson5 said:

Scorp makes some good points. Even when I first heard The Girl is Mine at the local YMCA, I was thinking that McCartney was working with another legend after his duet with Stevie Wonder. Even before the Michael-Mania that ensued, I already knew him and considered him a legend.

What happened after Thriller was entirely destructive to the Michael Jackson brand image, the Michael Jackson legend, to MJ's mental and physical health.

In the Bad Era, his name was associated with weirdness and his face was despised by a large part of the American public.

What he achieved with Thriller, as a black man, will always be recognized as a breakthrough in every way imaginable.

There was no need for the circus-freak image he projected to the world, starting with Bad. I remember reading articles in British music magazines where the writer is baffled and asking "wasn't this guy highly respected just three years ago?".

There were year end polls for 1987 on Rolling Stone magazine and MJ was voted as least welcome comeback, Bad was voted least welcome album. He was also voted most welcome too but he generated a lot of animosity towards himself due to his transformed face.

If Taylor Swift disappeared for three years and resurfaced looking like a Chinese woman, would her fans all still support her? I don't think so. He's lucky his European and Japanese fans still supported him or Bad would've been a major failure.

[Edited 10/6/15 19:24pm]

"His face was despised" ???

I think that word is too strong. People questioned and were perplexed. But I do not remember people "despising" his face. Maybe some did, but not "most of the American public". Also the American public has so many issues with race that their discomfort is more a reflection on America's White supremacy/racism than it is on MJ. In America, Bruce Jenner at 65 years of age, a former Olympian, can go from being a man to a woman and he wins awards for his choice. MJ changes his face and skin and that makes him a weirdo???

As for the Jordan/Jackson comparison. Yes Jordan still sells sneaker..but MJ is no slouch either. Last time I checked he (Jackson) was the top earning deceased celebrity. I don't think he can get much higher than that.

DonRants said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Scorp makes some good points. Even when I first heard The Girl is Mine at the local YMCA, I was thinking that McCartney was working with another legend after his duet with Stevie Wonder. Even before the Michael-Mania that ensued, I already knew him and considered him a legend.

What happened after Thriller was entirely destructive to the Michael Jackson brand image, the Michael Jackson legend, to MJ's mental and physical health.

In the Bad Era, his name was associated with weirdness and his face was despised by a large part of the American public.

What he achieved with Thriller, as a black man, will always be recognized as a breakthrough in every way imaginable.

There was no need for the circus-freak image he projected to the world, starting with Bad. I remember reading articles in British music magazines where the writer is baffled and asking "wasn't this guy highly respected just three years ago?".

There were year end polls for 1987 on Rolling Stone magazine and MJ was voted as least welcome comeback, Bad was voted least welcome album. He was also voted most welcome too but he generated a lot of animosity towards himself due to his transformed face.

If Taylor Swift disappeared for three years and resurfaced looking like a Chinese woman, would her fans all still support her? I don't think so. He's lucky his European and Japanese fans still supported him or Bad would've been a major failure.

[Edited 10/6/15 19:24pm]

"His face was despised" ???

I think that word is too strong. People questioned and were perplexed. But I do not remember people "despising" his face. Maybe some did, but not "most of the American public". Also the American public has so many issues with race that their discomfort is more a reflection on America's White supremacy/racism than it is on MJ. In America, Bruce Jenner at 65 years of age, a former Olympian, can go from being a man to a woman and he wins awards for his choice. MJ changes his face and skin and that makes him a weirdo???

As for the Jordan/Jackson comparison. Yes Jordan still sells sneaker..but MJ is no slouch either. Last time I checked he (Jackson) was the top earning deceased celebrity. I don't think he can get much higher than that.

>

C'mon now you know good and well Michael had a lot more shenanigans going on other than this, but it was drastic enough. The perception of a black man wanting to be white to the point of changing his appearance is something most would consider drastic. And psychically(sp) for the black community just too much to bear.

Remember when Chris Rock said he didn't want to do any movie that was set in the past because to him there's just two time periods, before J5 and after. Before being slavery! A joke yes, but there's truth in the funniest jokes. And a testament as to how important they were.

DonRants said:

Scorp said:

DonRants said:

"His face was despised" ???

I think that word is too strong. People questioned and were perplexed. But I do not remember people "despising" his face. Maybe some did, but not "most of the American public". Also the American public has so many issues with race that their discomfort is more a reflection on America's White supremacy/racism than it is on MJ. In America, Bruce Jenner at 65 years of age, a former Olympian, can go from being a man to a woman and he wins awards for his choice. MJ changes his face and skin and that makes him a weirdo???

As for the Jordan/Jackson comparison. Yes Jordan still sells sneaker..but MJ is no slouch either. Last time I checked he (Jackson) was the top earning deceased celebrity. I don't think he can get much higher than that.

But he is "deceased though" and thats the problem when it nevee should have happened the way it did.

to me, his death did not feel like it was truly his time, and took forever to accept though I never truly could and would not be surprised if it was a hoax cause he is full of surprises in life and even in death if you ask me. I felt he had more years in him despite being in dire straits, I would have been okay with bowing out gracefully with an album or two and retiring, this is it surprised me too cause I knew he didn't want it despite buying tickets...in a way I feel we all killed him because as much as fans were supportive, we were also enablers and he needed us as much as we needed him, the guards book confirmed what I suspected, people pleaser, but it's too late :*(

[Edited 10/7/15 12:58pm]

[Edited 10/7/15 12:59pm]

alphastreet said:

alphastreet said:

Scorp said:

DonRants said: But he is "deceased though" and thats the problem when it nevee should have happened the way it did.

to me, his death did not feel like it was truly his time, and took forever to accept though I never truly could and would not be surprised if it was a hoax cause he is full of surprises in life and even in death if you ask me. I felt he had more years in him despite being in dire straits, I would have been okay with bowing out gracefully with an album or two and retiring, this is it surprised me too cause I knew he didn't want it despite buying tickets...in a way I feel we all killed him because as much as fans were supportive, we were also enablers and he needed us as much as we needed him, the guards book confirmed what I suspected, people pleaser, but it's too late :*(

[Edited 10/7/15 12:58pm]

[Edited 10/7/15 12:59pm]

Of course it was not his dying time, he was left years to live, unfortunately he's gone too soon. I would love to see him makin a last album and then retiring from music and make a movie carreer as he'd wish to, but life says no.

CynicKill said:

>

C'mon now you know good and well Michael had a lot more shenanigans going on other than this, but it was drastic enough. The perception of a black man wanting to be white to the point of changing his appearance is something most would consider drastic. And psychically(sp) for the black community just too much to bear.

Remember when Chris Rock said he didn't want to do any movie that was set in the past because to him there's just two time periods, before J5 and after. Before being slavery! A joke yes, but there's truth in the funniest jokes. And a testament as to how important they were.

So you are saying if a man cuts his dick off and becomes a woman that's not drastic? (By the way, Bruce did not do that..but many transexuals do). Bruce/Catlyn sits there with two fake tits and a penis looking like a woman and no one calls him/her FREEK. Thats not too drastic for Amerika. No sir.

"Psychically too much for the black community to bear". Lets see..slavery, Jim Crow and Segregation and now Mass Incarceration. If we in the black community can get beyond those forms of white oppression, I think we can get beyond a brother trying to look white.

Also MJ's racial issues are a lot more conflicted than a "black man wanting to be white". That is how most see it, but there is a lot suggesting it was more than that. And even if he did want to be white..are we mad at him for taking action and doing something which this society makes many people of color wish to do? Shouldn't we be more concerned with changing the racist structure of the society? Ultimately Michael Jackson is a VICTIM of our society's racism, he deserves our compassion not our anger.

Big thanks to SoulAlive for sharing a version of this in the MJ sticky. This is why I became a fan and still am. Great music that makes me feel alive! Say Say with previously unreleased vocals. Most of the lead vocal is sung by Michael.

[Edited 10/7/15 13:29pm]

DonRants said:

CynicKill said:

>

C'mon now you know good and well Michael had a lot more shenanigans going on other than this, but it was drastic enough. The perception of a black man wanting to be white to the point of changing his appearance is something most would consider drastic. And psychically(sp) for the black community just too much to bear.

Remember when Chris Rock said he didn't want to do any movie that was set in the past because to him there's just two time periods, before J5 and after. Before being slavery! A joke yes, but there's truth in the funniest jokes. And a testament as to how important they were.

So you are saying if a man cuts his dick off and becomes a woman that's not drastic? (By the way, Bruce did not do that..but many transexuals do). Bruce/Catlyn sits there with two fake tits and a penis looking like a woman and no one calls him/her FREEK. Thats not too drastic for Amerika. No sir.

"Psychically too much for the black community to bear". Lets see..slavery, Jim Crow and Segregation and now Mass Incarceration. If we in the black community can get beyond those forms of white oppression, I think we can get beyond a brother trying to look white.

Also MJ's racial issues are a lot more conflicted than a "black man wanting to be white". That is how most see it, but there is a lot suggesting it was more than that. And even if he did want to be white..are we mad at him for taking action and doing something which this society makes many people of color wish to do? Shouldn't we be more concerned with changing the racist structure of the society? Ultimately Michael Jackson is a VICTIM of our society's racism, he deserves our compassion not our anger.

>

I was just playing devil's advocate. I have no idea if any of it has any bases in fact.

But as far as Bruce Jenner is concerned he's had the benefit of a strategic acceptance campaign that's been going on for some decades now AND changing times. Had he done it in 1987 I think things would be different. Plus the fact that trans girls get killed on the daily still emphasizes the fact that the more things change the more they stay the same.

Which brings up your other point about all the things blacks have gotten beyond. Last time I checked I hear about those subjects almost daily. I'm sure you've heard some reference to slavery, police brutality or racism this week.

I do agree these issues are much bigger than Michael Jackson though. He did deserve our compassion, something that sadly came too late.

had too much compassion for him, and felt burned by it just before his death...wish I didn't let it get far..

[Edited 10/7/15 14:10pm]

CynicKill said:

214 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

214 said:

Of course it was not his dying time, he was left years to live, unfortunately he's gone too soon. I would love to see him makin a last album and then retiring from music and make a movie carreer as he'd wish to, but life says no.

Not to sound disrespectful but there was no way MJ was gonna be acting in any movies with his deteriorating face by the 2000s. Maybe he could have been a producer or a choreographer for those Step Up type movies. Even his cameo in Men in Black 2 drew nothing but laughter and not a good kind of laughter either. [Edited 10/7/15 17:05pm]

Not to sound disrespectful, but you're unbeareable with your obsession to bash Michael

MJ was initially good at manipulating his image.

During the "Thriller" era, he was good at playing the innocent, shy, kind-hearted, America's sweetheart character that posed with the President and went to Disneyland etc etc

During the "Captain EO" era, he was good at giving himself a sci-fi image, with all the rumors, changing face, changing skin color, oxygen chamber, film, etc.. I think it was Magic & Madness that talked about this.

^ That wasn't a good idea.

During the "Bad" era, he tried to play the role of a thug/tough gangster but from what I can recount, it didn't really end up all too convincing (imo, he looked most badass in 'Smooth Criminal')

During the "Dangerous" and "History" eras, it seemed like he was trying to mesh "Thriller" and "Bad" together... on record, he'd sound 'bad' and the music could come across as extremely tough sometimes, but in person he'd be acting like he did in the early-80s... extremely shy, innocent, etc.. except the public reaction wasn't the same this time.

Don't remember what my original intention was, but oh well.

[Edited 10/7/15 19:09pm]

CharismaDove said:

MJ was initially good at manipulating his image.

During the "Thriller" era, he was good at playing the innocent, shy, kind-hearted, America's sweetheart character that posed with the President and went to Disneyland etc etc

During the "Captain EO" era, he was good at giving himself a sci-fi image, with all the rumors, changing face, changing skin color, oxygen chamber, film, etc.. I think it was Magic & Madness that talked about this.

^ That wasn't a good idea.

During the "Bad" era, he tried to play the role of a thug/tough gangster but from what I can recount, it didn't really end up all too convincing (imo, he looked most badass in 'Smooth Criminal')

During the "Dangerous" and "History" eras, it seemed like he was trying to mesh "Thriller" and "Bad" together... on record, he'd sound 'bad' and the music could come across as extremely tough sometimes, but in person he'd be acting like he did in the early-80s... extremely shy, innocent, etc.. except the public reaction wasn't the same this time.

Don't remember what my original intention was, but oh well.

[Edited 10/7/15 19:09pm]

Good perspectives

However, here are some things to also think about....

Some think that was "all image" with the shy speaking voice and acting shy but it really wasn't. He did manipulate it to a degree though but I wouldn't say it was ALL completely fake and many of his friends and people that he encounter have revealed that he was also shy and had a soft voice. So it is not like this was 100% a media image.

However, there are also other conflicting stories that Michael was not so shy and didn't have a timid voice behind closed doors. I think Michael acted differently around different people and this was based on comfort level but all these conflicting stories just show how complex and unique Michael was which is why it is hard to put him in a box.

More like it showed how strange he had become with his voice as soft as a whisper. If a man's voice isn't even real, one has to wonder what other aspects of him aren't real such as his so-called skin disorder, his so-called biological children who look nothing like him.

Oops, I forgot there was an autopsy performed at the request of the Jackson family revealing he had Vitiligo. My bad.

He was soft spoken even when he was a teenager so that narrative is not completely true. Dick Clark often joked about how high MJs voice was when the Jacksons appeared on his show. He was shy and soft spoken so that was apart of who he was.... although he manipulated and exaggerated those attributes publicly to a degree but it still doesnt change that was apart of who he was (which again is supported by family, friends and people who knew him but then he also showed other sides to different people which makes sense being MJ was a very complex) and honestly your own conspiracy about the autospy is hilarious at this point You keep shouting to the roof tops about why the report is phony but you haven't provided receipts to prove your case LOL

What's so complex about using a fake voice, depending on who you're speaking with? That's strange and disengenous to do that. People on that Bad 25 documentary stated he preferred his high pitched voice, which got more whispery after Thriller.

If he was so shy, how come he could perform in front of thousands of people? Was that his version of Sasha Fierce?

Not listening.... if he was like that as a teenager and kid how could that completely be fake? I agree maybe he exaggerated it as he got older but he was shy and soft spoken. Again, people close to him have said this ALSO other people have stated his voice was deeper which is why I said he was complex because he acted differently around different people.

MichaelJackson5 said:

What's so complex about using a fake voice, depending on who you're speaking with? That's strange and disengenous to do that. People on that Bad 25 documentary stated he preferred his high pitched voice, which got more whispery after Thriller.

If he was so shy, how come he could perform in front of thousands of people? Was that his version of Sasha Fierce?

>

Well Prince did state that his epilepsy was the driving force behind his wild persona and performing.

And he was as shy as they come.

I guess MJ did become introverted when he reached puberty. But he didn't seem as shy during his early days with the J5. He even visited Studio 54 back in the late 70s. There are stories about him being holed up in his bedroom surrounded by mannequins when he was still living with his parents in Encino in the 80s before he moved to Neverland.

MJ at the legendary Studio 54.

its' stunning how for such an amazing exclusive clip this posted on youtube over 6 months ago has only drawn 14000 views

word has it Spike Lee is doing this Off The Wall Documentary, but it will probably be watered down some kind of way

what's crazy is, it's almost like this period of his career never happened and this was record that became to this day the quientessential r&b/soul album ever

Scorp said:

its' stunning how for such an amazing exclusive clip this posted on youtube over 6 months ago has only drawn 14000 views

word has it Spike Lee is doing this Off The Wall Documentary, but it will probably be watered down some kind of way

what's crazy is, it's almost like this period of his career never happened and this was record that became to this day the quientessential r&b/soul album ever

>

The good old days.
Do they know where this was recorded?

CynicKill said:

Scorp said:

its' stunning how for such an amazing exclusive clip this posted on youtube over 6 months ago has only drawn 14000 views

word has it Spike Lee is doing this Off The Wall Documentary, but it will probably be watered down some kind of way

what's crazy is, it's almost like this period of his career never happened and this was record that became to this day the quientessential r&b/soul album ever

>

The good old days.
Do they know where this was recorded?

I believe it was in Oakland

Scorp said:

its' stunning how for such an amazing exclusive clip this posted on youtube over 6 months ago has only drawn 14000 views

word has it Spike Lee is doing this Off The Wall Documentary, but it will probably be watered down some kind of way

what's crazy is, it's almost like this period of his career never happened and this was record that became to this day the quientessential r&b/soul album ever

I see a painfully shy, introverted man in that clip.