214 said:

duccichucka said:

I defend this in several posts throughout this thread.

Callling him a one trick pony is just too much, even when i understand your whole point throughout the thread

I understand exactly how you feel, but I've no idols to protect.

namepeace said:

David Hill's Prince: A Pop Life very artfully discusses the contrast between MJ's post-Thriller choices and Prince's post-PR choices. In the 5 years between Thriller and Bad, Prince made 5 albums(2 of those double albums), as well a slew of "killer B's," a shelved triple album, and other associated projects under a label he started. He took a critical and commercial hit, but in hindsight, that body of work is legendary.

Hill also makes the case that ATWIAD has more similarities to PR than may meet the eye.

Prince never fell victim to thriller-itis during that five year stretch. He was only beholden,
artistically, to himself. MJ, on the other hand, was a fucking basket case. It is a healthy
psyche and a healthy creative vision that allows one to say, "Okay! I just hit 'em with an
album that will go down as top ten of all time in terms of sales and influence. Now, what
shall I do for a follow up? I know! Go left field on 'em! Fuck 'em; this is about my vision,
nobody else's."

This is not the conversation Michael Jackson had with himself during the five years between
Thriller and Bad.

I am unfamiliar with Hill's work, but I'd like to see the argument he makes that Around The
World In A Day has more similarties to Purple Rain than what may meet the eye; I don't buy
it altogether. Sure, Prince didn't completely throw out his idiosyncracies from one album to
the next (think about the breakdown towards the end of the title track of ATWIAD where he
has that squiggly synth line punctuated by the Linn drum machine clap which is totally a
Prince attribute heard prior to 1985). And as long as he had Wendy and Lisa in tow, he
was certainly going to make enough room in his work for influences outside of that hard R&B
Minneapolis sound, which is featured somewhat in Purple Rain and halts completely during
Parade. But ATWIAD is just so sonically and lyrically psychedelic with no overt appeal for mass
consumption that is associated with the preceding album that it makes it hard for me to see/
hear how it is more similar than dissimilar to Purple Rain. ATWIAD is not a companion piece
to Purple Rain sonically; it's more like the 80s version of Sgt Pepper's and Axis: Bold as Love.

Anyways, what is Hill's argument here, NP?

duccichucka said:

214 said:

Callling him a one trick pony is just too much, even when i understand your whole point throughout the thread

I understand exactly how you feel, but I've no idols to protect.

No you don't i haven't either

Michael Jackson had sex with underage boys.

Taylor Swift doesn't.

7thday said:

Michael Jackson had sex with underage boys.

Taylor Swift doesn't.

OMG you are a piece of... can't believe it

7thday said:

Even if you want to believe that, it's irrelevant to the music.

You MJ naysayers need a new script.

duccichucka said:

CharismaDove said:

I understand what you're saying performance-wise (even before his death, 'This Is It' was intended to be the ultimate 'Michael Jackson' show; this is good in the way that he was basically a worldwide brand and everyone knew and loved his style, but bad in the way that he was never able to evolve from moonwalking and etc without disappointing people).

But music-wise? Nah. I mean, I get that people don't care for 'Dangerous' and 'History' as much as the earlier albums, and that they find them inferior, but that doesn't mean he had stopped growing creatively. If 'Dangerous' had been an 11-track pop/funk record, I'd agree with you. Instead, it's a sprawling sonic new jack swing set that sounds unlike anything he'd done before, and much darker. Lyrically, he was growing leaps and bounds from 'Thriller'. In the '90s, I feel he began singing deeper and his lyrics became weird and darker. And c'mon, do you think songs like "Little Susie" or "D.S." or "Whatever Happens" would have been included on Thriller or Bad? Songs may suck in your opinion, but I definitely do think he evolved.

Right - This Is It is a prime example of what I'm talking about. You can take the routine and
stage show/presentation of This Is It and transport it to 1987 and you really wouldn't be
too historically anachronistic. He perfected a template and he never strayed from it. But
who could do such a thing anyways? Metaphorically speaking, once you've seen the face
of God, what good will a pretty girl's face do for you? In other words, once you come up with
Thriller and the live presentation of it as an entertainer, where else do you go? Nowhere,
apparently; you stay right there and milk it for all it's worth.

Dangerous is indeed sprawling; the first half is Teddy Riley at some of his finest. The second
half is utter shite as it sounds like it was produced by Walt Disney and Willy Wonka. Yes,
his lyrics are dark and strange, but his lyrics were always dark and strange as heard
all the way from Thriller to Bad. MJ was a pretty strange fellow as indicated by his lyrical
subject matter (paranoia, the supernatural, his fame, the evils and ills of the world, etc). So
lyrically, I don't find Dangerous too unconnected from Thriller and Bad at all. Musically, MJ is
back to his usual tricks with Dangerous even if a different co-pilot is at the helm. MJ liked hard
guitar rock (Beat It/Dirty Diana/Give In To Me), his R&B heavy tunes (Billie Jean/Another Part of
Me/Remember the Time), his light'n'fluffy (PYT, Baby Be Mine/Liberian Girl/Gone Too Soon) and
his save the world foundation tunes (Man in the Mirror/Heal the World). So lyrically, and even
compositionally, he didn't stray too far from that template he worked on in the 80s. I disagree
with ya, Charisma, even though I don't think we'll ever see another performer quite like
Michael Jackson, who was really just a sign that God can be a show-off!

You forget about the HIStory album which is when MJ wasn't as formulaic and saccharine with some of his songs. They Don't Care About Us is one of his greatest achievements and illustrates that Michael Jackson was capable of innovation that rivaled any of his peers or the Beatles. Unlike Leave Me Alone or Why You Wanna Trip On Me?, TDCAU is a lyrical and compositional tour de force that has an angry MJ showing a level of emotion that few artists outside of rap have managed to convey.

[Edited 10/1/15 20:58pm]

7thday said:

Michael Jackson had sex with underage boys.

Taylor Swift doesn't.

Attack MJ all you want but been it's been rumored time and again over the years that Madonna had her limousine driver pick up underaged Hispanic boys around Manhattan for her sexual pleasure in the early 80s.

MichaelJackson5 said:

7thday said:

Michael Jackson had sex with underage boys.

Taylor Swift doesn't.

Attack MJ all you want but been it's been rumored time and again over the years that Madonna had her limousine driver pick up underaged Hispanic boys around Manhattan for her sexual pleasure in the early 80s.

what? is that for real never heard that, who said tjast

MichaelJackson5 said:

duccichucka said:

Right - This Is It is a prime example of what I'm talking about. You can take the routine and
stage show/presentation of This Is It and transport it to 1987 and you really wouldn't be
too historically anachronistic. He perfected a template and he never strayed from it. But
who could do such a thing anyways? Metaphorically speaking, once you've seen the face
of God, what good will a pretty girl's face do for you? In other words, once you come up with
Thriller and the live presentation of it as an entertainer, where else do you go? Nowhere,
apparently; you stay right there and milk it for all it's worth.

Dangerous is indeed sprawling; the first half is Teddy Riley at some of his finest. The second
half is utter shite as it sounds like it was produced by Walt Disney and Willy Wonka. Yes,
his lyrics are dark and strange, but his lyrics were always dark and strange as heard
all the way from Thriller to Bad. MJ was a pretty strange fellow as indicated by his lyrical
subject matter (paranoia, the supernatural, his fame, the evils and ills of the world, etc). So
lyrically, I don't find Dangerous too unconnected from Thriller and Bad at all. Musically, MJ is
back to his usual tricks with Dangerous even if a different co-pilot is at the helm. MJ liked hard
guitar rock (Beat It/Dirty Diana/Give In To Me), his R&B heavy tunes (Billie Jean/Another Part of
Me/Remember the Time), his light'n'fluffy (PYT, Baby Be Mine/Liberian Girl/Gone Too Soon) and
his save the world foundation tunes (Man in the Mirror/Heal the World). So lyrically, and even
compositionally, he didn't stray too far from that template he worked on in the 80s. I disagree
with ya, Charisma, even though I don't think we'll ever see another performer quite like
Michael Jackson, who was really just a sign that God can be a show-off!

You forget about the HIStory album which is when MJ wasn't as formulaic and saccharine with some of his songs. They Don't Care About Us is one of his greatest achievements and illustrates that Michael Jackson was capable of innovation that rivaled any of his peers or the Beatles. Unlike Leave Me Alone or Why You Wanna Trip On Me?, TDCAU is a lyrical and compositional tour de force that has an angry MJ showing a level of emotion that few artists outside of rap have managed to convey.

[Edited 10/1/15 20:58pm]

I'm willing to entertain this: what makes you think that "They Don't Care About Us" is innova-
tive, a compositional tour de force, and a great achievement?

duccichucka said:

DonRants said:

Please elaborate on that? How exactly was MJ a one trick pony? Honestly not starting any ish, I am just curious about your opinion. I have heard MJ called many things..but never a one trick pony.

I defend this in several posts throughout this thread.

My bad, I don't know how I missed that there were more pages.

214 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Attack MJ all you want but been it's been rumored time and again over the years that Madonna had her limousine driver pick up underaged Hispanic boys around Manhattan for her sexual pleasure in the early 80s.

what? is that for real never heard that, who said tjast

From page 90 of The I Hate Madonna Handbook by Ilene Rosenzweig, published by St. Martin's Press, New York: According to several sources, Madonna often cruised Manhattan's Lower East Side in her limo, picking up young Latino men and having her way with them.

Madonna intimate Erica Bell has described these joy rides by saying, "You could go down to Avenue D and find dozens of guys who'll tell you they were picked up by Madonna. And they'd be telling the truth."

Bell remembered riding with Madonna and "picking up two or three at a time."

Sometimes she'd be satisfied with just a kiss, "but if she really liked the kid, she'd just rip off his clothes and do whatever she wanted with him while we drove around New York."

According to Mark Kamins, Madonna sometimes brought the destitute boys home to her luxurious apartment on the Upper West Side.

"She ran a Puerto Rican stud farm up there," he said.

Wasn't there any risk the boys would tell someone about the experiences after she had abandoned them? "These were just banji boys, downtown kids," Johnny Dynell, a close-hand observer, has said. "Madonna was smart. She knew nobody would believe them."

From pages 89-90 of The I Hate Madonna Handbook by Ilene Rosenzweig, published by St. Martin's Press, New York: When Madonna's first manager, Camille Barbone, brought her 16- year- old cousin to catch Madonna's show, Madonna ordered the teenager to "stand in front so I can see you."

That way during the performance she could grab him by the collar and sing into the teenager's face.

Later Barbone discovered the two making out in her dressing room, and Barbone wrenched the two apart.

"He's awfully young," Barbone chided Madonna.

"Yes," Madonna replies with a shrug, "but he's awfully cute."

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

You forget about the HIStory album which is when MJ wasn't as formulaic and saccharine with some of his songs. They Don't Care About Us is one of his greatest achievements and illustrates that Michael Jackson was capable of innovation that rivaled any of his peers or the Beatles. Unlike Leave Me Alone or Why You Wanna Trip On Me?, TDCAU is a lyrical and compositional tour de force that has an angry MJ showing a level of emotion that few artists outside of rap have managed to convey.

[Edited 10/1/15 20:58pm]

I'm willing to entertain this: what makes you think that "They Don't Care About Us" is innova-
tive, a compositional tour de force, and a great achievement?

The arrangement of the drumbeats in TDCAU combined with the tight rhythmic strutcture makes the song stand out the moment you hear it on HIStory. Considering MJ was literally a human beatbox, he conceived every aspect of this song's stucture. The main chorus fits right in perfectly turning the song into an anthem for the ages.

Lyric wise, he is in full anti-establishment mode. He goes where no other artist dared and attacked the real groups that control America's media and government. The lyrics are so powerful that the establishment forced stations in the US to stop giving the record spins. That's how threatened they felt by the message Jackson was making with TDCAU.

TDCAU is the reason MJ never had support on American pop stations by the mid 1990s. If the allegations were the reason for his downfall, Scream and You Are Not Alone wouldn't have become smash hits on the Hot 100.

The song has been ressurected over the last couple of years by the BlackLivesMatter movement. Just as Thriller has become the unofficial song each Halloween, or We Are The World the song for helping underpriveliged nations and world peace, TDCAU has become the anthem of people that feel victimized by forces beyond their control. It says a lot that out of hundreds of anti-establishment hip hop and rap songs to choose from since the late 1980s, TDCAU, a song with no profanity or promotion of violence, has become that anthem.

MichaelJackson5 said:

214 said:

what? is that for real never heard that, who said tjast

From page 90 of The I Hate Madonna Handbook by Ilene Rosenzweig, published by St. Martin's Press, New York: According to several sources, Madonna often cruised Manhattan's Lower East Side in her limo, picking up young Latino men and having her way with them.

Madonna intimate Erica Bell has described these joy rides by saying, "You could go down to Avenue D and find dozens of guys who'll tell you they were picked up by Madonna. And they'd be telling the truth."

Bell remembered riding with Madonna and "picking up two or three at a time."

Sometimes she'd be satisfied with just a kiss, "but if she really liked the kid, she'd just rip off his clothes and do whatever she wanted with him while we drove around New York."

According to Mark Kamins, Madonna sometimes brought the destitute boys home to her luxurious apartment on the Upper West Side.

"She ran a Puerto Rican stud farm up there," he said.

Wasn't there any risk the boys would tell someone about the experiences after she had abandoned them? "These were just banji boys, downtown kids," Johnny Dynell, a close-hand observer, has said. "Madonna was smart. She knew nobody would believe them."

From pages 89-90 of The I Hate Madonna Handbook by Ilene Rosenzweig, published by St. Martin's Press, New York: When Madonna's first manager, Camille Barbone, brought her 16- year- old cousin to catch Madonna's show, Madonna ordered the teenager to "stand in front so I can see you."

That way during the performance she could grab him by the collar and sing into the teenager's face.

Later Barbone discovered the two making out in her dressing room, and Barbone wrenched the two apart.

"He's awfully young," Barbone chided Madonna.

"Yes," Madonna replies with a shrug, "but he's awfully cute."

Great answer from Madonna. But with that title we're supposed to believe that story I Hate Madonna... so i throw shit one her

MichaelJackson5 said:

duccichucka said:

I'm willing to entertain this: what makes you think that "They Don't Care About Us" is innova-
tive, a compositional tour de force, and a great achievement?

The arrangement of the drumbeats in TDCAU combined with the tight rhythmic strutcture makes the song stand out the moment you hear it on HIStory. Considering MJ was literally a human beatbox, he conceived every aspect of this song's stucture. The main chorus fits right in perfectly turning the song into an anthem for the ages.

Lyric wise, he is in full anti-establishment mode. He goes where no other artist dared and attacked the real groups that control America's media and government. The lyrics are so powerful that the establishment forced stations in the US to stop giving the record spins. That's how threatened they felt by the message Jackson was making with TDCAU.

TDCAU is the reason MJ never had support on American pop stations by the mid 1990s. If the allegations were the reason for his downfall, Scream and You Are Not Alone wouldn't have become smash hits on the Hot 100.

The song has been ressurected over the last couple of years by the BlackLivesMatter movement. Just as Thriller has become the unofficial song each Halloween, or We Are The World the song for helping underpriveliged nations and world peace, TDCAU has become the anthem of people that feel victimized by forces beyond their control. It says a lot that out of hundreds of anti-establishment hip hop and rap songs to choose from since the late 1980s, TDCAU, a song with no profanity or promotion of violence, has become that anthem.

None of this goes far in establishing why "They Don't Care About Us" is an innovative and
great artistic achievement in terms of composition. Its chordal arrangement is hardly inter-
esting and neither is its vocal melody. Lyrically, MJ is certainly making a clear point about
how a segment of society feels neglected, marginalized, and brutalized, but he doesn't hard-
ly go "where no other artist dared" - that's an exaggeration, friend. Off of the top of my
head, I can think of many recording artists who wrote protest songs. You err in casting this
tune as some sort of groundbreaking piece - and it simply is just another footnote in a long
history of musicians making political statements about society. Finally, the reason why some
radio stations refused to play the song is not because of the persuasive power of MJ's mess-
age, but because it initially contained ethnic slurs. The allegations of some impropriety on
his part didn't do too much damage as he had two big hits off of HIStory and embarked upon
a massively successful world tour as well. There was significant damage, however, to his
psyche, one that was already perturbed to begin with. HIStory is just more of the same from
MJ; sorry, bro. That being said, I'm headed over to Youtube right now to listen to my favorite
HIStory track, and probably my favorite MJ ballad: "Stranger in Moscow."

Good post.

duccichucka said:

No other artist in the history of music has been publicly denounced by the AntiDefsmation League.

MJ never had a career after that. The songs from HIStory that were hits were before the release of TDCAU. After its controversy, the last singled released off HIStory, Stranger in Moscow, peaked in the 90s of the Hot 100, and was the lowest charting single from MJ during his solo career with Epic Records. That's no coincidence.

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

The arrangement of the drumbeats in TDCAU combined with the tight rhythmic strutcture makes the song stand out the moment you hear it on HIStory. Considering MJ was literally a human beatbox, he conceived every aspect of this song's stucture. The main chorus fits right in perfectly turning the song into an anthem for the ages.

Lyric wise, he is in full anti-establishment mode. He goes where no other artist dared and attacked the real groups that control America's media and government. The lyrics are so powerful that the establishment forced stations in the US to stop giving the record spins. That's how threatened they felt by the message Jackson was making with TDCAU.

TDCAU is the reason MJ never had support on American pop stations by the mid 1990s. If the allegations were the reason for his downfall, Scream and You Are Not Alone wouldn't have become smash hits on the Hot 100.

The song has been ressurected over the last couple of years by the BlackLivesMatter movement. Just as Thriller has become the unofficial song each Halloween, or We Are The World the song for helping underpriveliged nations and world peace, TDCAU has become the anthem of people that feel victimized by forces beyond their control. It says a lot that out of hundreds of anti-establishment hip hop and rap songs to choose from since the late 1980s, TDCAU, a song with no profanity or promotion of violence, has become that anthem.

None of this goes far in establishing why "They Don't Care About Us" is an innovative and
great artistic achievement in terms of composition. Its chordal arrangement is hardly inter-
esting and neither is its vocal melody. Lyrically, MJ is certainly making a clear point about
how a segment of society feels neglected, marginalized, and brutalized, but he doesn't hard-
ly go "where no other artist dared" - that's an exaggeration, friend. Off of the top of my
head, I can think of many recording artists who wrote protest songs. You err in casting this
tune as some sort of groundbreaking piece - and it simply is just another footnote in a long
history of musicians making political statements about society. Finally, the reason why some
radio stations refused to play the song is not because of the persuasive power of MJ's mess-
age, but because it initially contained ethnic slurs. The allegations of some impropriety on
his part didn't do too much damage as he had two big hits off of HIStory and embarked upon
a massively successful world tour as well. There was significant damage, however, to his
psyche, one that was already perturbed to begin with. HIStory is just more of the same from
MJ; sorry, bro. That being said, I'm headed over to Youtube right now to listen to my favorite
HIStory track, and probably my favorite MJ ballad: "Stranger in Moscow."

Good post.

>

You really don't like TDCAU?

I think it's an awesome track.

MichaelJackson5 said:

No other artist in the history of music has been publicly denounced by the AntiDefsmation League. MJ never had a career after that. The songs from HIStory that were hits were before the release of TDCAU. After its controversy, the last singled released off HIStory, Stranger in Moscow, peaked in the 90s of the Hot 100, and was the lowest charting single from MJ during his solo career with Epic Records. That's no coincidence.

This is simply not the case. The HIStory singles released before TDCAU were hits; and this is
after the 1993 allegations (I mention this because this serves to the suggest that if a child
sexual abuse allegation couldn't derail his career, then its unlikely that ethnic slurs in TDCAU
and its censuring could as well). The reason that TDCAU wasn't a top hit is simple to deduce:
1) there was controversy surrounding its use of "Jew me" and "kike me" and 2) the song kinda
sucked.

As articulately as you expressed what you enjoy about the song itself, the fact still remains that
it had a boring chordal arrangement; a boring vocal melody; and it wasn't exciting. But MJ had
a career - how are you arriving at that conclusion after he had a major television event on CBS
in the fall of 2001? If you're saying that the Anti-Defamation League's castigation of TDCAU was
what caused MJ's downfall, as indicated by the poor showing of "Stranger in Moscow," then yer
outta yer mind!

CynicKill said:

You really don't like TDCAU?

I think it's an awesome track.

I don't think it's interesting as a composition at all. And lyrically, MJ was always a bit ham-fisted
when it came to moralizing, imo. Now, "Stranger in Moscow?" Oh boy! I think he moves from an
Eb dorian mode for the verses to the chorus section (how does it feel?) in B natural and shifts at
some point during the same section to A natural (at least I think so! My theory is not what it
used to be when I was actively playing/writing), and it's so freakin' lovely and sophisticated and
unexpected. The guitarist even slides into an Eb/Ab dyad at 1:07 in the song that's just so
beautiful! The song has alot of things happening musically that remind of Debussy and Ravel and
the French Impressionism movement during the early 20th century. And the lyrics are cryptic,
aching, wistful, weird, and lovely too:

I was wandering in the rain
Mask of life, feeling insane
Swift and sudden fall from grace
Sunny days seem far away
Kremlin's shadow belittling me
Stalin's tomb won't let me be

I'm livin' lonely. . .
like a stranger in Moscow

Oh man, what a great fucking song! It's harmonically rich and so paradoxically mysterious and
uncovered lyrically at the same time.

, Stranger in Moscow, peaked in the 90s of the Hot 100, and was the lowest charting single from MJ during his solo career with Epic Records. That's no coincidence.

Sadly being one of his best songs if not the best after Billie Jean

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

No other artist in the history of music has been publicly denounced by the AntiDefsmation League. MJ never had a career after that. The songs from HIStory that were hits were before the release of TDCAU. After its controversy, the last singled released off HIStory, Stranger in Moscow, peaked in the 90s of the Hot 100, and was the lowest charting single from MJ during his solo career with Epic Records. That's no coincidence.

This is simply not the case. The HIStory singles released before TDCAU were hits; and this is
after the 1993 allegations (I mention this because this serves to the suggest that if a child
sexual abuse allegation couldn't derail his career, then its unlikely that ethnic slurs in TDCAU
and its censuring could as well). The reason that TDCAU wasn't a top hit is simple to deduce:
1) there was controversy surrounding its use of "Jew me" and "kike me" and 2) the song kinda
sucked.

As articulately as you expressed what you enjoy about the song itself, the fact still remains that
it had a boring chordal arrangement; a boring vocal melody; and it wasn't exciting. But MJ had
a career - how are you arriving at that conclusion after he had a major television event on CBS
in the fall of 2001? If you're saying that the Anti-Defamation League's castigation of TDCAU was
what caused MJ's downfall, as indicated by the poor showing of "Stranger in Moscow," then yer
outta yer mind!

Boring for you, it's not a boring song at all, you just do not like it and find it very simple or basic musically,for that matter Stranger is indeed a boring song, i love Stranger but is like just for fans.

duccichucka said:

CynicKill said:

You really don't like TDCAU?

I think it's an awesome track.

I don't think it's interesting as a composition at all. And lyrically, MJ was always a bit ham-fisted
when it came to moralizing, imo. Now, "Stranger in Moscow?" Oh boy! I think he moves from an
Eb dorian mode for the verses to the chorus section (how does it feel?) in B natural and shifts at
some point during the same section to A natural (at least I think so! My theory is not what it
used to be when I was actively playing/writing), and it's so freakin' lovely and sophisticated and
unexpected. The guitarist even slides into an Eb/Ab dyad at 1:07 in the song that's just so
beautiful! The song has alot of things happening musically that remind of Debussy and Ravel and
the French Impressionism movement during the early 20th century. And the lyrics are cryptic,
aching, wistful, weird, and lovely too:

I was wandering in the rain
Mask of life, feeling insane
Swift and sudden fall from grace
Sunny days seem far away
Kremlin's shadow belittling me
Stalin's tomb won't let me be

I'm livin' lonely. . .
like a stranger in Moscow

Oh man, what a great fucking song! It's harmonically rich and so paradoxically mysterious and
uncovered lyrically at the same time.

Beautiful sad song, and exquisite video, he wrote it himself

duccichucka said:

If TDCAU is so boring, explain why it's one of a select few of his videos on YouTube with more than 100 million views?

And why would the blacklivesmatter movement use the song if it wasn't a catchy song?

The 2001 30th anniversary concert was s huge event because of all the big stars that were involved. In addition, he performed with his brothers for the first time in 17 years.

When it came time for pop stations to spin You Rock My World, they only did for two weeks when it reached 11 on the Hot 100. After that, the airplay on pop stations was reduced resulting in the song to peak at 10 for one week before freewheeling.

Who controls the media or the government? Google Rick Sanchez or Helen Thomas for the answer. MJ was a black listed celebrity for all intents and purposes.

Why do you think he spent the rest of the 90s touring outside of America.

MichaelJackson5 said:

duccichucka said:

This is simply not the case. The HIStory singles released before TDCAU were hits; and this is
after the 1993 allegations (I mention this because this serves to the suggest that if a child
sexual abuse allegation couldn't derail his career, then its unlikely that ethnic slurs in TDCAU
and its censuring could as well). The reason that TDCAU wasn't a top hit is simple to deduce:
1) there was controversy surrounding its use of "Jew me" and "kike me" and 2) the song kinda
sucked.

As articulately as you expressed what you enjoy about the song itself, the fact still remains that
it had a boring chordal arrangement; a boring vocal melody; and it wasn't exciting. But MJ had
a career - how are you arriving at that conclusion after he had a major television event on CBS
in the fall of 2001? If you're saying that the Anti-Defamation League's castigation of TDCAU was
what caused MJ's downfall, as indicated by the poor showing of "Stranger in Moscow," then yer
outta yer mind!

If TDCAU is so boring, explain why it's one of a select few of his videos on YouTube with more than 100 million views? And why would the blacklivesmatter movement use the song if it wasn't a catchy song? The 2001 30th anniversary concert was s huge event because of all the big stars that were involved. In addition, he performed with his brothers for the first time in 17 years. When it came time for pop stations to spin You Rock My World, they only did for two weeks when it reached 11 on the Hot 100. After that, the airplay on pop stations was reduced resulting in the song to peak at 10 for one week before freewheeling. Who controls the media or the government? Google Rick Sanchez or Helen Thomas for the answer. MJ was a black listed celebrity for all intents and purposes. Why do you think he spent the rest of the 90s touring outside of America.

He just doesn't like that song, that's all

214 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

duccichucka said: If TDCAU is so boring, explain why it's one of a select few of his videos on YouTube with more than 100 million views? And why would the blacklivesmatter movement use the song if it wasn't a catchy song? The 2001 30th anniversary concert was s huge event because of all the big stars that were involved. In addition, he performed with his brothers for the first time in 17 years. When it came time for pop stations to spin You Rock My World, they only did for two weeks when it reached 11 on the Hot 100. After that, the airplay on pop stations was reduced resulting in the song to peak at 10 for one week before freewheeling. Who controls the media or the government? Google Rick Sanchez or Helen Thomas for the answer. MJ was a black listed celebrity for all intents and purposes. Why do you think he spent the rest of the 90s touring outside of America.

He just doesn't like that song, that's all

Even if he doesn't like it, there's no disputing that TDCAU doesn't follow the usual Jackson mold established by Thriller. A 20 year old song that was forcibly removed from radio station's playlist which still manages to receive over 100 million views on YouTube is proof that the tune continues to resonate with music lovers today.

It debuted on the Hot 100 at 30 and if there wasn't tampering by the ADL, it would easily have been a Top 5 and possible No.1 single, following up on You Are Not Alone.

It charted well in most countries outside of North America despite likely pressure from civil rights groups around the world. It was huge in Germany and they're not even known to endorse racist sentiments post WWII.

Chart (1996)	Peak position
Australia (ARIA)[33]	16
Austria (Ö3 Austria Top 40)[34]	2
Belgium (Ultratop 50 Flanders)[14]	9
Belgium (Ultratop 50 Wallonia)[35]	3
Czech Republic (Rádio Top 100 Oficiální)[36]	1
Denmark (Tracklisten)[36]	3
Finland (Suomen virallinen lista)[37]	6
France (SNEP)[38]	4
Germany (Official German Charts)[15]	1
Hungary (MAHASZ)[36]	1
Ireland (IRMA)[39]	7
Italy (FIMI)[40]	1
Netherlands (Dutch Top 40)[41]	4
Netherlands (Single Top 100)[42]	4
New Zealand (Recorded Music NZ)[43]	9
Norway (VG-lista)[44]	6
Sweden (Sverigetopplistan)[45]	3
Switzerland (Schweizer Hitparade)[46]	3
UK Singles (Official Charts Company)[47]	4
US Billboard Hot 100[16]	30
US Billboard Hot Dance Club Play[16]	27
US Billboard Hot Dance Music/Maxi-Singles Sales[16]	4
US Billboard Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles[16]	10
US Billboard Rhythmic Top 40[16]	27

MichaelJackson5 said:

If TDCAU is so boring, explain why it's one of a select few of his videos on YouTube with more than 100 million views? And why would the blacklivesmatter movement use the song if it wasn't a catchy song? The 2001 30th anniversary concert was s huge event because of all the big stars that were involved. In addition, he performed with his brothers for the first time in 17 years. When it came time for pop stations to spin You Rock My World, they only did for two weeks when it reached 11 on the Hot 100. After that, the airplay on pop stations was reduced resulting in the song to peak at 10 for one week before freewheeling. Who controls the media or the government? Google Rick Sanchez or Helen Thomas for the answer. MJ was a black listed celebrity for all intents and purposes. Why do you think he spent the rest of the 90s touring outside of America.

TDCAU is boring as a composition; sorry, bro. It is not a paradox that something can be a
boring piece of music (in my opinion) and connect well with the masses. The Black Lives
Matter movement adopted the song most likely because of its lyrical component, and not
merely because it's "catchy." Again, "catchiness" never implies "well written." And "100
million Youtube views" for a music video doesn't imply that the song is an interesting piece
of music.

The way you are framing the controversy with TDCAU is such an aggrandizement. In other
words, you're trying to cast this song as being so terrifying to the social and political struc-
tures in America because it was just too brutally honest in its criticism about injustice that the
powers that be blacklisted MJ and derailed his career. . . this is not the case.

The reason why TDCAU didn't get the love you felt it deserved is because MJ initially had ethnic
slurs in the song; and this was during a time when the PC police loomed large in the media.
US radio stations hesitated in playing the song, not because they wanted to blacklist MJ; not
because the song was too heavy or politically charged; but because MJ used "Jew me" and Kike
me." And you can bet your butt that his record label, Sony, probably kowtowed too and didn't
push the single. Anyways, I've said this three or four times, yet you have not responded to this
particular point. MJ was not blacklisted; what a preposterous thing to say! Who's blacklisted
in Hollywood, and then given a CBS special? Your answer for this "Because of all the big stars
that were involved," doesn't fly. CBS was honoring Jackson's 30th anniversary of being a solo
recording artist. Do you understand the magnitude of this? When does a major network ever
honor a recording artist for having any success? Rarely. MJ's problems with the recording
industry and problems with recapturing Thriller success is due to his drug dependence, and
the fact that the public's taste had changed over the years and he could not adapt, and not be-
cause Hollywood decided to completely shun him because TDCAU was some compositional
force to be reckoned with.

Anyways, here are a couple of interesting reads:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/15/arts/in-new-lyrics-jackson-uses-slurs.html

http://home.mj-upbeat.com/2014/12/19/sony-hack-re-ignites-questions-about-mjs-banned-song/

[Edited 10/3/15 11:44am]

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

If TDCAU is so boring, explain why it's one of a select few of his videos on YouTube with more than 100 million views? And why would the blacklivesmatter movement use the song if it wasn't a catchy song? The 2001 30th anniversary concert was s huge event because of all the big stars that were involved. In addition, he performed with his brothers for the first time in 17 years. When it came time for pop stations to spin You Rock My World, they only did for two weeks when it reached 11 on the Hot 100. After that, the airplay on pop stations was reduced resulting in the song to peak at 10 for one week before freewheeling. Who controls the media or the government? Google Rick Sanchez or Helen Thomas for the answer. MJ was a black listed celebrity for all intents and purposes. Why do you think he spent the rest of the 90s touring outside of America.

TDCAU is boring as a composition; sorry, bro. It is not a paradox that something can be a
boring piece of music (in my opinion) and connect well with the masses. The Black Lives
Matter movement adopted the song most likely because of its lyrical component, and not
merely because it's "catchy." Again, "catchiness" never implies "well written." And "100
million Youtube views" for a music video doesn't imply that the song is an interesting piece
of music.

The way you are framing the controversy with TDCAU is such an aggrandizement. In other
words, you're trying to cast this song as being so terrifying to the social and political struc-
tures in America because it was just too brutally honest in its criticism about injustice that the
powers that be blacklisted MJ and derailed his career. . . this is not the case.

The reason why TDCAU didn't get the love you felt it deserved is because MJ initially had ethnic
slurs in the song; and this was during a time when the PC police loomed large in the media.
US radio stations hesitated in playing the song, not because they wanted to blacklist MJ; not
because the song was too heavy or politically charged; but because MJ used "Jew me" and Kike
me." And you can bet your butt that his record label, Sony, probably kowtowed too and didn't
push the single. Anyways, I've said this three or four times, yet you have not responded to this
particular point. MJ was not blacklisted; what a preposterous thing to say! Who's blacklisted
in Hollywood, and then given a CBS special? Your answer for this "Because of all the big stars
that were involved," doesn't fly. CBS was honoring Jackson's 30th anniversary of being a solo
recording artist. Do you understand the magnitude of this? When does a major network ever
honor a recording artist for having any success? Rarely. MJ's problems with the recording
industry and problems with recapturing Thriller success is due to his drug dependence, and
the fact that the public's taste had changed over the years and he could not adapt, and not be-
cause Hollywood decided to completely shun him because TDCAU was some compositional
force to be reckoned with.

Anyways, here are a couple of interesting reads:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/15/arts/in-new-lyrics-jackson-uses-slurs.html

http://home.mj-upbeat.com/2014/12/19/sony-hack-re-ignites-questions-about-mjs-banned-song/

[Edited 10/3/15 11:44am]

If the song was as dull as you say, countries like Germany, Hungary and Italy didn't seem to think so as it topped their respective charts.

As you mentioned earlier, many artists have released songs highlighting injustices in society. The BlackLivesMatter movement could have chosen out of hundreds of songs that addressed the same issues. So why did they choose They Don't Care About Us?

Here's just some of the more famous songs they could have chosen as their anthem:

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/arts/race_songs.html

If the ethnic slurs were about anybody else, there wouldn't have been such a commotion.

I agree that Sony backed off since the co-chairman of Sony Entertainment, Amy Pascal, was Jewish.

It's a double standard as Spike Lee, the director for it's video, pointed out:

from wikipedia:

Spike Lee claimed there was some kind of double standard in the music industry. "While the New York Times asserted the use of racial slurs in "They Don't Care About Us", they were silent on other racial slurs in the album. The Notorious B.I.G. says "n***a" on "This Time Around," another song on the HIStory album, but it did not attract media attention, as well as, many years before, use in lyrics of word "n****r" by John Lennon.^[32]

Granted the mid 90s was when political correctness was taking grip of society, but the N-bomb was as offensive in the 70s and 80s. So why the double standard for Jews?

Speaking of Ms. Pascal, this was her leaked comments on President Obama:

So it just proves that the political correctness agenda in Hollywood is as fake as anything else in Tinsletown.

The black-listing of Michael Jackson wasn't immediate or public. And it's because Jackson has been a part of America's culture and social fabric so long that the phasing out process isn't done overnight. It was achieved in a transparent manner.

The remainder of the HIStory album was cut short in America. Earth Song wasn't even released here. And there was a 4-5 year period when media coverage of MJ was diminished significantly. This was done deliberately as an attempt to erase the Michael Jackson brand from the public consciousness. During those years, radio and MTV tried to push Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Ricky Martin, Eminem, N'Sync and Usher.

When MJ returned with Invincible, it's true that CBS televised his MSG concerts but it was purely motivated by advertising profits that the TV audience would generate. The televised special wasn't done out of any real appreciation for his 30 years as a solo artist. MJ's career was already dead in the US by 1995.

MTV, like CBS, is owned by Viacom. If they were genuine in celebrating Jackson's 3 decades as a solo performer, they had a funny way of showing it as the video for You Rock My World received almost no rotational airplay eventhough it was consistently voted into the TRL Live countdown which means the demand from audiences was still there for MJ.

When it came time to really support Jackson, pop stations across the country stopped spinning You Rock My Word after the second week even though demand those two weeks exceeded expectations. It rocketed to No.11 its 2nd week:

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/2001-09-15

Sony didn't even bother releasing a physical single at this point when that would have pushed the song to the Top 5 and possible No.1 position. And radio support subsided by the 3rd and 4th week of the song's chart life on the Hot 100 despite enormous demand from listeners in the first two weeks and the song making it onto Top 6 at 6 countdowns on stations across the country.

Then, the character assasination of Michael Jackson began with every article about him associated with the then 8 year old allegations. Even reviews of Invincible never left out a mention of the Chander allegations for good measure.

This is what the establishment sought to do since the release of TDCAU. This was a stern message to every other artist in the music industry never to mention or bring attention to the real powerbrokers in their song or face a situation similar to Michael Jackson's with Invincible.

[Edited 10/3/15 14:21pm]

Are you freakin' serious? What did MJ say in TDCAU that was so dangerous that moguls
in the media and social structures had to blacklist him? It's a typical protest song about
injustice!!!! You persist upon coloring MJ as some type of social/musical prophet whose
lyrics in this particular song demanded a swift and decisive evisceration of his career; no,
actually, you make it sound like TDCAU exposed the Illuminati and he had to be dealt with
in response! Rage Against the Machine is definitely more critical in their protest songs; more
definite in their protest songs; more scathing and corrosive in their protest songs than
TDCAU could ever be. And they were definitely active during the 90s, so why weren't they
similarly blacklisted and sabotaged? NWA said "FUCK THA POLICE" and continued to sell
records and its members went on to have storied careers. Why weren't they systematically
blacklisted for openly criticizing the LAPD?

You still seem to be struggling with the concept that I may find something to be compositionally
dull/boring while the populace adores it. I don't know why this is difficult for you, but it's not
unusual: the populace, historically, is known for shitty taste when it comes to art. So, I'm asking
you to stop posting factoids about the popularity of TDCAU as some type of objective proof that
it was not an inferior composition in MJ's oeuvre. I wouldn't care if TDCAU went number one in
the US and stood there for 679 weeks; I'd still find it a crummy song.

Sigh...we don't know why BlackLivesMatter, as a movement, selected TDCAU as its anthem. But
one can hazard a guess that it may be due to its appropriateness regarding Black lives as sung
by the most successful pop star of all time, who happened to be Black. Stop linking TDCAU and
its (suppposed) superiority as a composition to that particular movement for matters not specific-
ally concerning its subject matter. In other words: TDCAU was not selected because its an in-
genious musical piece, but because it's lyrics pertain to the movement's platform. Lyrically, the
song is caustic as much as it is cumbersome (MJ was not a talented lyricist). Musically, the song
was very rudimentary and uninteresting. Together, it makes for a stolid tune, even though I
understand its appeal, especially for times such as these. This speaks to the songs classic-ness,
in that a tune written 20 years ago is still topical.

Nothing you've said proves that any scant success MJ encountered after TDCAU was released is
actually due to the song itself. This is really getting to be preposterous on your part. For
example: you cannot show that "You Rock My World" was stopped in its tracks on the way to
global dominance in 2001 because people in the media were still smarting over slights received
from TDCAU in the mid 90s. Correlation does not equal causation. MJ's lack of global success in
the 90s and 00s as compared to the 80s could be correlated to blowback due to TDCAU but it
doesn't mean it (TDCAU) caused it.

Sheesh, I thought your screen name wouldn't factor into this conversation but you are so dead
set on proving that TDCAU was just this trenchant and incisive composition that caused MJ's
downfall, but you're completely ignoring his drug dependency, bad business decision making,
reluctance to adapt to a changing marketplace, the hordes of sychophants and brownnosers he
surrounded himself with, his poor mental health issues that went largely untreated, and
debilitating child sexual abuse allegations that left him crippled creatively, psychically, mentally,
and physically that contributed to his diminished presence within the media and within the
marketplace. MJ's downfall was NOT because of TDCAU and Hollywood's banding together to
forestall any career progress he was sure to enjoy because of it (the release of TDCAU as a
single).

Yeah the reason TDCAU flopped stateside had EVERYTHING to do with the fracas the jewish slurs brought. I was disappointed at the time because he explained himself, then went on to edit the track anyway. It's most likely true the record company ran after the controversy.

I was a latecomer to "Stranger in Moscow" because for some reason I always equated it with "Earth Song", a song that really comes alive late but it's a case of too little too late IMO.

Once I finally listened to SIM, after his death (THAT late) I appreciated it on it's own terms.

And I think it's no secret that Michael became his own worst enemy as far as his downfall as concerned.

1989" has the quickest climb to 5 million sold since 2004.

http://www.billboard.com/...bum-decade


The fastest album to hit 5 million since Usher's 2004 album Confessions (when piracy was much lower). Stop with this Adele sold faster shit. I doubt she'll reach 21's peak since she doesn't try to appeal to the 35 and up crowd (Adele got very lucky that her singles resonated like that), but her next disc may very well sell more than Adele's next. Since this is her 3rd disc to sell 5 million domestically, it's a bit asinine to compare to something like The Emancipation of Mimi, which only sold because We Belong Together was one of the biggest hits of the decade. She's no fad and she's liked by a whole lot more than bitchy, blonde bimbettes.