CynicKill said:

mjscarousal said:

I am convinced that if a MJ sex tape had leaked, people would still make up excuses that he was gay or he didn't like girls. I have come to the conclusion that people will think what they want to think about MJ regardless of facts.

>

And that's why I wish Michael was a stronger person and not so reliant on global success.

You've been a veteran since 1969. You have more money than any artist living or dead ten times over. No one can touch you on stage.

If that isn't enough to boost your confidence then nothing will, and nothing did.

It's the reason why I think he should've went back to his family. Michael's sound went from grown and sexy to childlike and Disney after Thriller. Grown folks looking for grown and sexy were disappointed with BAD. I'm not saying it's a bad album but at the time I really think people were hoping for something else. But I'm no expert.

When I heard Smooth Criminal the first time, I was imagining a much darker video. Not the Disneyesque video that he made where he transforms into a car.

What I think he should have done was include one or two Rod Temperton songs on Bad. It's not as sexy because MJ was gearing it for his Pop audience, not his R&B fans. He didn't ever want to be relegated to R&B after the 1979 Grammys when he cried his eyes out for only winning in that category.

But at the 1988 Grammys he couldn't even win in any category. And that was unfortunate because his performance of Man in the Mirror was one of best ever caught on television. In fact, Bad move up a few spots on the album charts after people saw that awesome performance.

MichaelJackson5 said:

214 said:

You get it, so he didn´t have vitiligo because if he did then he should make a vitiligo foundation, oh you are totally right how blind i was...

Well, that would have been keeping with his generous and caring nature, wouldn't it? Look at how much Michael J. Fox has done for Parkinson's Disease because he was diagnosed with it.

But just because he didn't does not negate the fact that he had vitiligo. This argument is really... DUMB.

MichaelJackson5 said:

CynicKill said:

>

And that's why I wish Michael was a stronger person and not so reliant on global success.

You've been a veteran since 1969. You have more money than any artist living or dead ten times over. No one can touch you on stage.

If that isn't enough to boost your confidence then nothing will, and nothing did.

It's the reason why I think he should've went back to his family. Michael's sound went from grown and sexy to childlike and Disney after Thriller. Grown folks looking for grown and sexy were disappointed with BAD. I'm not saying it's a bad album but at the time I really think people were hoping for something else. But I'm no expert.

When I heard Smooth Criminal the first time, I was imagining a much darker video. Not the Disneyesque video that he made where he transforms into a car.

What I think he should have done was include one or two Rod Temperton songs on Bad. It's not as sexy because MJ was gearing it for his Pop audience, not his R&B fans. He didn't ever want to be relegated to R&B after the 1979 Grammys when he cried his eyes out for only winning in that category.

But at the 1988 Grammys he couldn't even win in any category. And that was unfortunate because his performance of Man in the Mirror was one of best ever caught on television. In fact, Bad move up a few spots on the album charts after people saw that awesome performance.

He didn't win any Grammys because he was clearly snubbed by the Grammy association and Liberian Girl is sexy as hell not sure what you all are talking about LOL

[Edited 10/5/15 14:46pm]

mjscarousal said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

That's another thing. LaToya's skin was becoming as light as MJ's at one point yet she didn't claim to suffer from Vitiligo. How does that work?

I'm not surprised by the backlash. When the biggest star the black community has produced releases a new album while no longer looking visibly black, it's no surprise they'd be outraged. Word is that Bad was never a big seller among African Americans who previously were the foundation of his fan base.

OMG, La Toya has always been light skin. However, La Toya said during her abusive and controlling marriage in the 90's, her husband made her wear white powdered foundation so she could look more like Michael. Do you even bother to research before you comment?

Michael had millions of fans all around the world when Thriller became the biggest selling album. You don't get the biggest selling album with African American fans alone...

But it was his enormous success on R&B that made pop stations take notice and start playing songs like BillieJean and Beat It.

Of course fans of all creeds and colors loved MJ during the Thriller Era. But during the Bad Era, he managed to sell just 6 million copies in the US during it's run from 87-89. That's a massive drop from the 19-20 million that Thriller sold during it's run.

In addition, Thriller has been the stronger catalog seller with sales in the US reaching over 29 million today while Bad is around 9 million.

This was a disappointment for MJ, when his plan was to sell 100 million copies of Bad.

MichaelJackson5 said:

CynicKill said:

>

And that's why I wish Michael was a stronger person and not so reliant on global success.

You've been a veteran since 1969. You have more money than any artist living or dead ten times over. No one can touch you on stage.

If that isn't enough to boost your confidence then nothing will, and nothing did.

It's the reason why I think he should've went back to his family. Michael's sound went from grown and sexy to childlike and Disney after Thriller. Grown folks looking for grown and sexy were disappointed with BAD. I'm not saying it's a bad album but at the time I really think people were hoping for something else. But I'm no expert.

When I heard Smooth Criminal the first time, I was imagining a much darker video. Not the Disneyesque video that he made where he transforms into a car.

What I think he should have done was include one or two Rod Temperton songs on Bad. It's not as sexy because MJ was gearing it for his Pop audience, not his R&B fans. He didn't ever want to be relegated to R&B after the 1979 Grammys when he cried his eyes out for only winning in that category.

But at the 1988 Grammys he couldn't even win in any category. And that was unfortunate because his performance of Man in the Mirror was one of best ever caught on television. In fact, Bad move up a few spots on the album charts after people saw that awesome performance.

>

My take is the hype was getting away from him. It took forever (in those days before people started doing the ten years between albums thing) to release it. He was dogged by bad publicity of his own making.

I'm gonna go old school with a good old Prince vs. MJ debate. In contrast that same year Prince releases Sign, after two years of what could be considered "experimentation" and drastically reducing his fan base, to land a Best Album nomination because no one could deny how awesome that project was. The work spoke for itself. Michael was getting lost in mini-movies videomaking.

mjscarousal said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

When I heard Smooth Criminal the first time, I was imagining a much darker video. Not the Disneyesque video that he made where he transforms into a car.

What I think he should have done was include one or two Rod Temperton songs on Bad. It's not as sexy because MJ was gearing it for his Pop audience, not his R&B fans. He didn't ever want to be relegated to R&B after the 1979 Grammys when he cried his eyes out for only winning in that category.

But at the 1988 Grammys he couldn't even win in any category. And that was unfortunate because his performance of Man in the Mirror was one of best ever caught on television. In fact, Bad move up a few spots on the album charts after people saw that awesome performance.

He didn't win any Grammys because he was clearly snubbed by the Grammy association and Liberian Girl is sexy as hell not sure what you all are talking about LOL

[Edited 10/5/15 14:46pm]

MJ should have released Liberian Girl on the US market like he did in the UK.

MichaelJackson5 said:

mjscarousal said:

OMG, La Toya has always been light skin. However, La Toya said during her abusive and controlling marriage in the 90's, her husband made her wear white powdered foundation so she could look more like Michael. Do you even bother to research before you comment?

Michael had millions of fans all around the world when Thriller became the biggest selling album. You don't get the biggest selling album with African American fans alone...

But it was his enormous success on R&B that made pop stations take notice and start playing songs like BillieJean and Beat It.

Of course fans of all creeds and colors loved MJ during the Thriller Era. But during the Bad Era, he managed to sell just 6 million copies in the US during it's run from 87-89. That's a massive drop from the 19-20 million that Thriller sold during it's run.

In addition, Thriller has been the stronger catalog seller with sales in the US reaching over 29 million today while Bad is around 9 million.

This was a disappointment for MJ, when his plan was to sell 100 million copies of Bad.

No you said that African Americans were the core of his fanbase during Thriller and that is statistically not true because objectively he had to have more white people and other nationalities to have the biggest selling album and to sell out stadiums on Victory Tour.

Don't try to back track now, I see right thru your bullshit

BAD has sold over 30 million copies world wide and is on the best selling album of all time list regardless of your little agenda you are trying to push......

CynicKill said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

When I heard Smooth Criminal the first time, I was imagining a much darker video. Not the Disneyesque video that he made where he transforms into a car.

What I think he should have done was include one or two Rod Temperton songs on Bad. It's not as sexy because MJ was gearing it for his Pop audience, not his R&B fans. He didn't ever want to be relegated to R&B after the 1979 Grammys when he cried his eyes out for only winning in that category.

But at the 1988 Grammys he couldn't even win in any category. And that was unfortunate because his performance of Man in the Mirror was one of best ever caught on television. In fact, Bad move up a few spots on the album charts after people saw that awesome performance.

>

My take is the hype was getting away from him. It took forever (in those days before people started doing the ten years between albums thing) to release it. He was dogged by bad publicity of his own making.

I'm gonna go old school with a good old Prince vs. MJ debate. In contrast that same year Prince releases Sign, after two years of what could be considered "experimentation" and drastically reducing his fan base, to land a Best Album nomination because no one could deny how awesome that project was. The work spoke for itself. Michael was getting lost in mini-movies videomaking.

Michael was also a video artist so that was his forte that he also strived to perfect. However, that was not the only thing he focused on. Prince was never into music videos which is why all his videos lack quality and direction. A part of Michael's talent was video making and creative direction which ironically was a major innovation for the industry so I dont think its fair to say he got "lost" in it as if that was the only thing he focuse on.

CynicKill said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

When I heard Smooth Criminal the first time, I was imagining a much darker video. Not the Disneyesque video that he made where he transforms into a car.

What I think he should have done was include one or two Rod Temperton songs on Bad. It's not as sexy because MJ was gearing it for his Pop audience, not his R&B fans. He didn't ever want to be relegated to R&B after the 1979 Grammys when he cried his eyes out for only winning in that category.

But at the 1988 Grammys he couldn't even win in any category. And that was unfortunate because his performance of Man in the Mirror was one of best ever caught on television. In fact, Bad move up a few spots on the album charts after people saw that awesome performance.

>

My take is the hype was getting away from him. It took forever (in those days before people started doing the ten years between albums thing) to release it. He was dogged by bad publicity of his own making.

I'm gonna go old school with a good old Prince vs. MJ debate. In contrast that same year Prince releases Sign, after two years of what could be considered "experimentation" and drastically reducing his fan base, to land a Best Album nomination because no one could deny how awesome that project was. The work spoke for itself. Michael was getting lost in mini-movies videomaking.

MJ is a numbers artist. And after selling 38.5 million copies of Thriller by 1985, he put a lot of pressure on himself to try to top it. Maybe that was one of the reasons behind his poor decisions like recreating his face. Had he just gone with his instincts, Bad could have been deeper. It was a great Pop album for the late 80s.

The video for Speed Demon was clearly geared towards 10 year old kids. In fact, the whole Moonwalker cassette seemed geared towards kids.

Prince approached his albums with no regard for sales. It's impressive what he achieved with ATWIAD just one year after Purple Rain.

But MJ really was snubbed at those 88 Grammys. He deserved better than a donut for all his effort in making Bad. Because of all the bad publicity, it took most of the focus away from his music. And that's unfortunate because his performance that night was one for the ages.

Even the Pepsi commercials during the Bad Era were more geared for kids than the ones in the Thriller Era.

You really going to sit here and say all Prince albums are quality? I really hate to do this but that is really b.s. Your talking about a man that released an album almost every year and MJ waited 4-5 years in between releases because he was a "numbers artist" as you say to put effort and quality in his albums. MJ cared about sales but that wasn't the ONLY thing he cared about.

MichaelJackson5 said:

CynicKill said:

>

My take is the hype was getting away from him. It took forever (in those days before people started doing the ten years between albums thing) to release it. He was dogged by bad publicity of his own making.

I'm gonna go old school with a good old Prince vs. MJ debate. In contrast that same year Prince releases Sign, after two years of what could be considered "experimentation" and drastically reducing his fan base, to land a Best Album nomination because no one could deny how awesome that project was. The work spoke for itself. Michael was getting lost in mini-movies videomaking.

MJ is a numbers artist. And after selling 38.5 million copies of Thriller by 1985, he put a lot of pressure on himself to try to top it. Maybe that was one of the reasons behind his poor decisions like recreating his face. Had he just gone with his instincts, Bad could have been deeper. It was a great Pop album for the late 80s.

The video for Speed Demon was clearly geared towards 10 year old kids. In fact, the whole Moonwalker cassette seemed geared towards kids.

Prince approached his albums with no regard for sales. It's impressive what he achieved with ATWIAD just one year after Purple Rain.

But MJ really was snubbed at those 88 Grammys. He deserved better than a donut for all his effort in making Bad. Because of all the bad publicity, it took most of the focus away from his music. And that's unfortunate because his performance that night was one for the ages.

Even the Pepsi commercials during the Bad Era were more geared for kids than the ones in the Thriller Era.

>

You forget about U2 though.

No one was beating U2 that year. They had the critical acclaim, the credibility and the worldwide revival aesthetic all wrapped up. When going to a concert can be equated with a religious experience it's kinda hard to argue with that.

In that way I don't think Michael got snubbed that year. He didn't stand a chance.

mjscarousal said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

But it was his enormous success on R&B that made pop stations take notice and start playing songs like BillieJean and Beat It.

Of course fans of all creeds and colors loved MJ during the Thriller Era. But during the Bad Era, he managed to sell just 6 million copies in the US during it's run from 87-89. That's a massive drop from the 19-20 million that Thriller sold during it's run.

In addition, Thriller has been the stronger catalog seller with sales in the US reaching over 29 million today while Bad is around 9 million.

This was a disappointment for MJ, when his plan was to sell 100 million copies of Bad.

No you said that African Americans were the core of his fanbase during Thriller and that is statistically not true because objectively he had to have more white people and other nationalities to have the biggest selling album and to sell out stadiums on Victory Tour.

Don't try to back track now, I see right thru your bullshit

BAD has sold over 30 million copies world wide and is on the best selling album of all time list regardless of your little agenda you are trying to push......

I said blacks were his foundational fan base. Nobody can deny that. I would never claim that only blacks supported Thriller when there were only about 24 million African Americans back in 1984. For it to achieve the kind of sales from just blacks, almost every black person in America would have needed to purchase a copy of Thriller.

As for the Victory Tour, most blacks couldn't even afford the high ticket prices. Of course he had white fans who supported Thriller and the Victory Tour.

Bad sold 30 million primarily on strong sales in Europe and Japan where MJ was still rocking stadiums like Wembley. Meanwhile in America, he was only able to fill basketball and hockey arenas during the American leg of the Bad Tour. You're just reinforcing my argument of how much his popularity in the US was lost.

Doesn't it make you wonder what happened when the American sales of Thriller are on par with the worldwide sales of Bad? What happened to all the American fans and why did they lose interest in MJ?

MichaelJackson5 said:

mjscarousal said:

No you said that African Americans were the core of his fanbase during Thriller and that is statistically not true because objectively he had to have more white people and other nationalities to have the biggest selling album and to sell out stadiums on Victory Tour.

Don't try to back track now, I see right thru your bullshit

BAD has sold over 30 million copies world wide and is on the best selling album of all time list regardless of your little agenda you are trying to push......

I said blacks were his foundational fan base. Nobody can deny that. I would never claim that only blacks supported Thriller when there were only about 24 million African Americans back in 1984. For it to achieve the kind of sales from just blacks, almost every black person in America would have needed to purchase a copy of Thriller.

As for the Victory Tour, most blacks couldn't even afford the high ticket prices. Of course he had white fans who supported Thriller and the Victory Tour.

Bad sold 30 million primarily on strong sales in Europe and Japan where MJ was still rocking stadiums like Wembley. Meanwhile in America, he was only able to fill basketball and hockey arenas during the American leg of the Bad Tour. You're just reinforcing my argument of how much his popularity in the US was lost.

Doesn't it make you wonder what happened when the American sales of Thriller are on par with the worldwide sales of Bad? What happened to all the American fans and why did they lose interest in MJ?

You want to be taken seriously so bad but most of what you have said are insults, ridiculous rants and misinformed opinions.

You sat here and called MJ racist

You insisted the autospy report was phony.

I take nothing you say seriously and most of everything you are insisting are your opinions, NOT facts which you are passionately trying to push as facts.

You never mentioned anything about blacks being MJ's foundation fanbase. You said that "African Americans were his primarily fan base" during Thriller to support why BAD didn't sell well. That is factually and statistically incorrect.

Your backtracking now....

But I am done with you. Have fun insulting and attacking Michael, you are clearly not a fan anyway. All of you pretend "mj stans" are mj haters and trolls.

mjscarousal said:

CynicKill said:

>

My take is the hype was getting away from him. It took forever (in those days before people started doing the ten years between albums thing) to release it. He was dogged by bad publicity of his own making.

I'm gonna go old school with a good old Prince vs. MJ debate. In contrast that same year Prince releases Sign, after two years of what could be considered "experimentation" and drastically reducing his fan base, to land a Best Album nomination because no one could deny how awesome that project was. The work spoke for itself. Michael was getting lost in mini-movies videomaking.

Michael was also a video artist so that was his forte that he also strived to perfect. However, that was not the only thing he focused on. Prince was never into music videos which is why all his videos lack quality and direction. A part of Michael's talent was video making and creative direction which ironically was a major innovation for the industry so I dont think its fair to say he got "lost" in it as if that was the only thing he focuse on.

The only good part of the video for Smooth Criminal was the choreography. The storyline was like something out of a 80s "B" movie.

mjscarousal said:

You really going to sit here and say all Prince albums are quality? I really hate to do this but that is really b.s. Your talking about a man that released an album almost every year and MJ waited 4-5 years in between releases because he was a "numbers artist" as you say to put effort and quality in his albums. MJ cared about sales but that wasn't the ONLY thing he cared about.

Prince cared more about his artistic vision when to came to his albums. It didn't matter to him if an album sold less than 500 thousand copies which is what led to his famous dispute with Warner Music.

MJ looked at the hit potential of his albums. That's why he dumped Quincy Jones and went with Teddy Riley to produce the New Jack Swing Dangerous album as that was the popular sound at the time. He took 4-5 years to make an album because he wanted each of his albums to be massive, spawning 7 Top 10s and spanning over a two year period.

CynicKill said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

MJ is a numbers artist. And after selling 38.5 million copies of Thriller by 1985, he put a lot of pressure on himself to try to top it. Maybe that was one of the reasons behind his poor decisions like recreating his face. Had he just gone with his instincts, Bad could have been deeper. It was a great Pop album for the late 80s.

The video for Speed Demon was clearly geared towards 10 year old kids. In fact, the whole Moonwalker cassette seemed geared towards kids.

Prince approached his albums with no regard for sales. It's impressive what he achieved with ATWIAD just one year after Purple Rain.

But MJ really was snubbed at those 88 Grammys. He deserved better than a donut for all his effort in making Bad. Because of all the bad publicity, it took most of the focus away from his music. And that's unfortunate because his performance that night was one for the ages.

Even the Pepsi commercials during the Bad Era were more geared for kids than the ones in the Thriller Era.

>

You forget about U2 though.

No one was beating U2 that year. They had the critical acclaim, the credibility and the worldwide revival aesthetic all wrapped up. When going to a concert can be equated with a religious experience it's kinda hard to argue with that.

In that way I don't think Michael got snubbed that year. He didn't stand a chance.

I was never really a U2 fan and didn't consider their concert a religious experience. Their earlier songs like Sunday Bloody Sunday and In The Name of Love were, at least for me, better than the songs from the Joshua Tree.

And MJ wasn't competing with U2 in the R&B categories yet he still lost. He wasn't a happy camper that night either:

It's hard to not feel sorry for the man that night.

mjscarousal said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

I said blacks were his foundational fan base. Nobody can deny that. I would never claim that only blacks supported Thriller when there were only about 24 million African Americans back in 1984. For it to achieve the kind of sales from just blacks, almost every black person in America would have needed to purchase a copy of Thriller.

As for the Victory Tour, most blacks couldn't even afford the high ticket prices. Of course he had white fans who supported Thriller and the Victory Tour.

Bad sold 30 million primarily on strong sales in Europe and Japan where MJ was still rocking stadiums like Wembley. Meanwhile in America, he was only able to fill basketball and hockey arenas during the American leg of the Bad Tour. You're just reinforcing my argument of how much his popularity in the US was lost.

Doesn't it make you wonder what happened when the American sales of Thriller are on par with the worldwide sales of Bad? What happened to all the American fans and why did they lose interest in MJ?

You want to be taken seriously so bad but most of what you have said are insults, ridiculous rants and misinformed opinions.

You sat here and called MJ racist

You insisted the autospy report was phony.

I take nothing you say seriously and most of everything you are insisting are your opinions, NOT facts which you are passionately trying to push as facts.

You never mentioned anything about blacks being MJ's foundation fanbase. You said that "African Americans were his primarily fan base" during Thriller to support why BAD didn't sell well. That is factually and statistically incorrect.

Your backtracking now....

But I am done with you. Have fun insulting and attacking Michael, you are clearly not a fan anyway. All of you pretend "mj stans" are mj haters and trolls.

So because you cannot address my argument regarding the decline from Thiller to Bad, you resort to childish name calling and accusations. Lame.

If I really thought only blacks purchased Thriller, it would mean I expected the Victory album to sell over 20 million units too.

If you look at Michael Jackson's life from an objective viewpoint, how does a guy get hit with Vitiligo just as he has cosmetic procedures that removed all traces of his racial identity.

On top of that, this Vitiligo-sticken man sires not one, but two kids that haven't a trace of blackness in them.

What are the odds of all this?

You know you lost the debate, but at least you have that autopsy report. Is it gonna be Grape or Cherry Kool Aid for you?

This has been one of the better MJ discussions and it is not even on the sticky. But it is 6 years after MJ's death and we are still caught up in the controversies. MJ probably knew if he made himself a bit freeky people would never stop talking about him.

DonRants said:

This has been one of the better MJ discussions and it is not even on the sticky. But it is 6 years after MJ's death and we are still caught up in the controversies. MJ probably knew if he made himself a bit freeky people would never stop talking about him.

>

Possibly.

It was part of his PR strategy while he was alive.

DonRants said:

This has been one of the better MJ discussions and it is not even on the sticky. But it is 6 years after MJ's death and we are still caught up in the controversies. MJ probably knew if he made himself a bit freeky people would never stop talking about him.

Michael Jordan hasn't played basketball since 2003 but he's still talked about in the NBA to this very day like he is still playing, not because of any type of concerted effort to make sure people don't stop talkin about him, but because of the talent he displayed on that basketball court that still reverberates today........

Michael Jackson did not need to resort to image building to be discussed just for the sake of it, his talent would have always did all the talking

I'm not into controversies and shock value, that gets old quick

purplethunder3121 said:

This is the problem. When a guy looks like this, there is no need for any more plastic surgery. America was fine with him this way. Europe was fine with him this way too. Any country that wasn't fine has major issues stemming from White colonialism or White conquest like Japan. Even if the Vitiligo is real, a lighter or even white skinned MJ looking like he did in 1983 wouldn't have needed a cartoon-like nose and fake-looking chin cleft.

But I know the next excuse is going to be his bout with Lupus because we all know that an artificial chin cleft has always been the perfect way to battle Lupus.

purplethunder3121 said:

perfect gif for this whole discussion

he really is so hot in that interview, projecting his dreams and wishes on that llama and all bless louie the llama...

He looked like a beautiful man at that time, he should have stop at that time

He looks good here:

yeah he does

Scorp said:

DonRants said:

This has been one of the better MJ discussions and it is not even on the sticky. But it is 6 years after MJ's death and we are still caught up in the controversies. MJ probably knew if he made himself a bit freeky people would never stop talking about him.

Michael Jordan hasn't played basketball since 2003 but he's still talked about in the NBA to this very day like he is still playing, not because of any type of concerted effort to make sure people don't stop talkin about him, but because of the talent he displayed on that basketball court that still reverberates today........

Michael Jackson did not need to resort to image building to be discussed just for the sake of it, his talent would have always did all the talking

I'm not into controversies and shock value, that gets old quick

Scorp..I was wondering when you were going to jump in here. LOL.

Actually Scorp you are right and you are wrong. As brilliant as Michael Jordan was..his celebrity never reached the intensity that Michael Jackson's did. People acted as if they were in the presence of a "chosen one" in Jackson's presence. I don't see women and gay men falling over themselves for Jordan to the extent that they did for Jackson.

Now had MJ just relied on his talent..he would have had a better life and been more respected...no doubt about that. But he would not have been the huge celebrity which comes with getting people talking about you non-stop. That comes with being a FREAK! I believe it is the PT. Barnum influence that made him go that route.