missfee said:

namepeace said:

Define "our time."

Envision Kanye West walking on the stage for a jam session with nothing but musical instruments and a microphone. Take, say, a half-dozen of the greatest musicians in rock history: A random selection --

Paul McCartney, Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Berry, Stevie Wonder, Bruce Springsteen.

Honestly, how would he fare? I love Kanye's work myself, but let's be real, you can't call him a musician. He's a rapper and producer.

He could be the 21st century's answer to Phil Spector. Maybe.

This is how I feel. Well said.

As aggravated as I get with his public persona, he is a legend behind the boards and can at times be a great lyricist in spite of himself.

namepeace said:

Define "our time."

Envision Kanye West walking on the stage for a jam session with nothing but musical instruments and a microphone. Take, say, a half-dozen of the greatest musicians in rock history: A random selection --

Paul McCartney, Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Berry, Stevie Wonder, Bruce Springsteen.

Honestly, how would he fare? I love Kanye's work myself, but let's be real, you can't call him a musician. He's a rapper and producer.

He could be the 21st century's answer to Phil Spector. Maybe.

Sadly, not even that. Phil Spector could play instruments and write music. He did a lot of the arrangements, (putting shit on PAPER so musicians could READ it). So no, not even Phil Spector. I believe he's an artist, but a musician is a stretch.

Pretty FUCKING close and I'm only 2 songs in.

steakfinger said:

namepeace said:

Define "our time."

Envision Kanye West walking on the stage for a jam session with nothing but musical instruments and a microphone. Take, say, a half-dozen of the greatest musicians in rock history: A random selection --

Paul McCartney, Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Berry, Stevie Wonder, Bruce Springsteen.

Honestly, how would he fare? I love Kanye's work myself, but let's be real, you can't call him a musician. He's a rapper and producer.

He could be the 21st century's answer to Phil Spector. Maybe.

Sadly, not even that. Phil Spector could play instruments and write music. He did a lot of the arrangements, (putting shit on PAPER so musicians could READ it). So no, not even Phil Spector. I believe he's an artist, but a musician is a stretch.

Fair point, and as I said I agree that Ye isn't a musician, I compared him to Spector because of the sound he helped craft for performers. But that's a fair point.

namepeace said:

EddieC said:

I'll say it now--put Prince (at their ages) in a room with Jimi Hendrix or Santana. He very well might have completely failed to bring it.

God knows he blew it on stage with James Brown and Michael Jackson.

That's an apples to apples comparison, and good one (since Prince was out of his league as a stage performer at that time), but the Kanye analogy is different.

Of course, what the heck is with all this putting people in the room with other people as an argument for greatness anyway? How does that prove their greatness? Are they meant to battle it out or collaborate? And how exactly does a guitar battle work out?

I don't get it.

Recall that the issue is not "greatness," but "musicianship." As I have said in the same reply where I used the "room/stage" analogy, Kanye West has made a mark as a producer and MC that will loom large because he is (arguably) the leading artistic force in pop music. What that says about music today is another story but it's true.

Okay. As I've said before, I don't know Kanye beyond singles, and as others have pointed out that might be unfair to someone who seems to actually work at making longer album-length statements--so I'm not making an argument about whether or not Kanye is "the greatest musician of our time" (and I assume that "our time" here begins after "Prince's time").

I think that music technology has changed in such a way the last couple of decades that someone who isn't an instrumentalist (or is so only at a fairly rudimentary level) is not prevented from being a musician by that fact. Kanye clearly is involved in making a great deal of music, and while I don't know exactly what he contributes on each track, the general feeling seems to be that he's responsible (to a large degree, though with collaborators) for the sounds on his albums. That makes him a musician, as far as I'm concerned. The "greatness" of him "as a musician" has to do with his music.

Prince is a multi-instrumentalist, being at least good/very good on the basic instruments for the genres in which he works. However, he is not the "greatest" on any of these. He is also a good/very good vocalist, a good/very good songwriter, a good/very good arranger. The combination of these skills allowed him, often by himself, to have musical ideas and realize them as actual sounds, actual recorded music. Most of it was put together, piecemeal, in the studio. It never actually happened as a single moment in time, but was built using the technology he had available to him. The argument for his greatness relies on that music and its influence on other musicians and their music, both in its own time and in the years since then and still to come.

Part of Prince's influence is that his remarkable output as a "solo" performer provided an example for other people to make music on their own as well, realizing their musical ideas by themselves in the studio. Changes in technology opened that up to people with rudimentary or even non-existent skills with traditional instruments. But the fact that they are not players doesn't mean that they aren't taking the ideas from their minds and creating the actual audible music--they are simple using different methods. They still make music; they're still musicians.

I don't know how great Kanye is. But I think any discussion of him needs to be as a musician as well any of the individual skills he has as rapper or producer or arranger--those are part of his skills as a musician working to make music. His greatness will be seen as we see whether his music stands the test of time and influence.

I think it's possible, by the way, that Kanye might beat Prince in one way. I can see him collaborating with others much more easily and fruitfully than others. He might actually do better in a room with Hendrix or Santana, working with them. But I said that somewhere else.

Not. Maybe one of the greatest rappers but it is always debatable when you

talk about who's the best rapper of all time.

Oooh, ooh... when can we start comparing him to Prince???

He's a great modern artist/entertainer, I'll give him that. From the music world, I would even say he's one of the best of the last generation at conceptualizing an album package and getting that vision across to his fans, and maybe even some people who didn't like him before. And there is absolutely no doubt that within the world of hip-hop he is important (any other artists in that genre with as many classic albums over the same time period?) and will be remembered as one of the greats. But in the context of the actual meaning of the word "musician", no, he is not.

RenHoek said:

Oooh, ooh... when can we start comparing him to Prince???

terrible replies ITT

kanye has always been a phenomenal producer unmatched by his contemporaies, and his emotive rapping gets better with every album

stay tastless org

Shawy89 said:

Critics admire his work all time

He easily makes it to the year-end lists of best albums/songs

He produces his own shit

So people pretty much say he's THE greatest musician of our time.

What is your opinion?

And if he wasn't, who is the greatest of our time then?!

There is only one true statement in the entry above.

The shit sliding out of his arse hitting the toilet water has more musicality.

He's not even the greatest musician in his own bathroom.

I think it's fair to call him this generation's Brian Wilson. Kanye has a golden ear and uses other musicians expertly to get what he wants out of them.

(Yes, I know Brian Wilson also played piano and had a beautiful voice before all the cocaine took it away but still )

CharlieRise said:

I think it's fair to call him this generation's Brian Wilson. Kanye has a golden ear and uses other musicians expertly to get what he wants out of them.

(Yes, I know Brian Wilson also played piano and had a beautiful voice before all the cocaine took it away but still )

Kanye West samples and instructs other musicians to "play something like this". He's not a musician.

What is the diference bewteen Georg Clinton's input in P-Funk and what Kanye does? And I never see anyone slamming George for his musical skills, I've never seen him play piano or guitar either...Yet there is no doubt in my mind he is a great musician, so why can't Knaye (& Dr Dre) be too?

[Edited 6/15/13 9:38am]

Thibaut said:

What is the diference bewteen Georg Clinton's input in P-Funk and what Kanye does? And I never see anyone slamming George for his musical skills, I've never seen him play piano or guitar either...Yet there is no doubt in my mind he is a great musician, so why can't Knaye (& Dr Dre) be too?

If George doesn't compose or conduct music, or play an instrument, then he's not a musician either. He's a songwriter, and there's a huge difference. Kanye is a great songwriter, but pounding on an MPC filled with samples does not make one a musician. I listen to a HUGE amount of electronic music (it's mainly what I listen to, actually), and I don't believe most of them are musicians, either.

Cerebus said:

Thibaut said:

What is the diference bewteen Georg Clinton's input in P-Funk and what Kanye does? And I never see anyone slamming George for his musical skills, I've never seen him play piano or guitar either...Yet there is no doubt in my mind he is a great musician, so why can't Knaye (& Dr Dre) be too?

If George doesn't compose or conduct music, or play an instrument, then he's not a musician either. He's a songwriter, and there's a huge difference. Kanye is a great songwriter, but pounding on an MPC filled with samples does not make one a musician. I listen to a HUGE amount of electronic music (it's mainly what I listen to, actually), and I don't believe most of them are musicians, either.

I almost brought up Clinton, but I didn't really know if he played an instrument, or what exactly all those songwriting credits amounted to. Are they for lyrics, or does he compose a lead vocal line or horn line or what? What does "composing or conducting music" amount to? Particularly, I'm confused as to how "conducting" would make you a musician if we're going to exclude people who aren't instrumentalists. That's kind of like saying a director is an actor, isn't it? Lots of vocalists who are not instrumentalists (or can do very little instrumentally) "compose" by singing lines and letting other people arrange them for instruments. Are these people musicians?

I don't know. My thinking remains that if you're responsible for the realization of musical ideas as actual music, you're a musician. I wonder if the choice of that word in the original has become just a distraction from what I think was the intention. What if we changed to "musical artist"?

Obviously, there are people out there who still wouldn't accept the idea of Kanye as either musical or an artist, or would even laugh at songwriter, but I think most of us would be able to move to considering the value of what he does once we got rid of "musician" as a term.

It's as simple as pie!

If the majority of your output relies on samples of OTHER PEOPLE'S MUSIC, then you get a demotion in terms of creativity.

A singer who writes is different though because a singer when they write most of the time write the melody as well, which depending on who you ask is THE most important part of the song. It's hard to put their creativity into question.

Cerebus said:

CharlieRise said:

I think it's fair to call him this generation's Brian Wilson. Kanye has a golden ear and uses other musicians expertly to get what he wants out of them.

(Yes, I know Brian Wilson also played piano and had a beautiful voice before all the cocaine took it away but still )

Kanye West samples and instructs other musicians to "play something like this". He's not a musician.

Never heard of The Wrecking Crew or The Wondermints? Some of Brian Wilson's best music came from his golden ear and directing highly talented musicians to match the sound he heard in his head (and if you listen to the studio takes, he wasn't technical about his direction at all)

.

It's silly to try to say that Kanye West isn't a musician. He does things in a (slightly) different way but the end result is still some amazing music. And, if anything, you can argue that he treats the studio itself like an instrument.

EddieC said:

Cerebus said:

If George doesn't compose or conduct music, or play an instrument, then he's not a musician either. He's a songwriter, and there's a huge difference. Kanye is a great songwriter, but pounding on an MPC filled with samples does not make one a musician. I listen to a HUGE amount of electronic music (it's mainly what I listen to, actually), and I don't believe most of them are musicians, either.

I almost brought up Clinton, but I didn't really know if he played an instrument, or what exactly all those songwriting credits amounted to. Are they for lyrics, or does he compose a lead vocal line or horn line or what? What does "composing or conducting music" amount to? Particularly, I'm confused as to how "conducting" would make you a musician if we're going to exclude people who aren't instrumentalists. That's kind of like saying a director is an actor, isn't it? Lots of vocalists who are not instrumentalists (or can do very little instrumentally) "compose" by singing lines and letting other people arrange them for instruments. Are these people musicians?

I don't know. My thinking remains that if you're responsible for the realization of musical ideas as actual music, you're a musician. I wonder if the choice of that word in the original has become just a distraction from what I think was the intention. What if we changed to "musical artist"?

Obviously, there are people out there who still wouldn't accept the idea of Kanye as either musical or an artist, or would even laugh at songwriter, but I think most of us would be able to move to considering the value of what he does once we got rid of "musician" as a term.

Conductors need to know what and when every instruement is supposed to be doing according to the sheet music. A good conductor is playing the entire orchestra.

A vocalist is a vocalist, an arranger is an arranger and a performer is a performer and songwriters (a very broad term - which is why some songs credit a long list of people) write songs. And in my first reply to this thread I called Kanye an artist. In fact, I called him a great one.

Admittedly I'm a snob about this - you'll get no argument from me in that regard. And in the name of the other stuff I have to do today, that's all I'm going to say for now.

No, I'm going to say one more thing. Even if everyone who thinks otherwise acquiesces and we all agree to call Kanye a "musician", he still IS NOT the greatest of out time. Or the last decade, or any other time for that matter.

Cerebus said:

No, I'm going to say one more thing. Even if everyone who thinks otherwise acquiesces and we all agree to call Kanye a "musician", he still IS NOT the greatest of out time. Or the last decade, or any other time for that matter.

Cerebus--

I've avoided making a judgement concerning his actual greatness, but you're probably right.

As for whether or not he's a musician--I don't guess it matters much. I'm fine with disagreeing.

I dig Kanye's drive to push the envelope.

But... no. Just no.

No. But here's a very interesting new interview from the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/20...sVlA1qDCtg

EddieC said:

aardvark15 said:

purple1968 said: You do realise the same was said about Prince that was said to Kanye?

I'll say it now--put Prince (at their ages) in a room with Jimi Hendrix or Santana. He very well might have completely failed to bring it.

God knows he blew it on stage with James Brown and Michael Jackson.

Of course, what the heck is with all this putting people in the room with other people as an argument for greatness anyway? How does that prove their greatness? Are they meant to battle it out or collaborate? And how exactly does a guitar battle work out?

I don't get it.

Prince didn't blow anything! He was set up. Mj already knew that JB was going to invite him up on that stage. It is well known that JB didn't care too much for Prince. They made a total fool out of him. Mj has always been scared of Prince talent & couldn't wait to outshine him when he knew he was already in his element, since his dancing was similar to James.

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

EddieC said:

I'll say it now--put Prince (at their ages) in a room with Jimi Hendrix or Santana. He very well might have completely failed to bring it.

God knows he blew it on stage with James Brown and Michael Jackson.

Of course, what the heck is with all this putting people in the room with other people as an argument for greatness anyway? How does that prove their greatness? Are they meant to battle it out or collaborate? And how exactly does a guitar battle work out?

I don't get it.

Prince didn't blow anything! He was set up. Mj already knew that JB was going to invite him up on that stage. It is well known that JB didn't care too much for Prince. They made a total fool out of him. Mj has always been scared of Prince talent & couldn't wait to outshine him when he knew he was already in his element, since his dancing was similar to James.

Set up?!

What difference does it make whether Michael knew he was calling him up or whether James couldn't stand Prince? He played a solo that had nothing to do with a pretty basic groove and fell over the stage props! How can you blame them for his being completely out of it?

If you want to justify what he did, say he was overwhelmed by being on stage with one of his heroes or something. But a set up is just laughable.

Seriously, this is a man who in the Bud Light incident mocked some drunk nobody that he pulled on stage, asking if the guitar "worked" after the guy was done playing no worse than Prince did on Brown's stage? And I laughed at that--but that's a set up.

I roll my eyes at you, KCOOL.

Taurus said:

Name one instrument he plays, then ask yourself that question again.......

Wrong point. Then you should say that Michael Jackson or Billie Holiday, who only SANG, where not musicians.

I dont mean to be arrogant, you all may maintain your disapproval, but I dont think many of you really took a chance to listen to his albums. Try 808s & Heartbreak. It's far more rnb than hip hop. And it contributes to rnb, its relevant. It really is. Take a chance. I think he's creative. Of course not on the same league as instrumental or vocal virtuosos of popular music, his league is the electronic genre, for he works with collages as well. But I dont agree what he comes up with, especially on MBDTF and 808, is anywhere near plagiarism. He comes up with something new. Nothing on the two records I mentioned really fits on previous genres. As many songs on Yeezus wont do.

About his personal attributes and behaviour, I dont take that much in count for a music appreciation. He may be a "cunt", as some of you said. Whatever. Aren't MJ and Prince Jehovah's witnesses? To me, that's far enough proof, at least to a philosofical level, that they are (or were, in the case of MJ), very very limited intelectually. And that does not stop me in any way from loving their music. (No, I didnt say Kanye's as talented as MJ or Prince. Dont misread me, teenagers.)

Kanye isn't the greatest musician of our time because he isnt a "classical" musician, however he is probably one of the best producers out today. He's been doing great stuff since the early 00s and is still trying to innovate his music. As a rapper he is not that good and anyone who has followed him knows he used to have ghost writers that wrote his songs (ask consequence ), hence the new stuff sucks because he's not a lyracist. He is creative and tries to always bring something new to the table even tho it can be quite pretentious at times. To the new generation of 90s kids and younger fans, he is what Prince was to some in the 80s. I remember back in 2011 when Kanye appeared on stage during the Prince concert at WOW festival and the crowd went crazy. The term musician I believe will be changed in the coming decades because ever since music has become more computerized, people create more music on computers than on real instruments. I say this because I study music and many musicologists are starting to debate this within the community of music.

[Edited 6/16/13 14:22pm]