SoulAlive said:

funkaholic1972 said:

Same here, I think 1986/87 had the last crumbles of the good RnB, then it died. Neo-Soul brought us some nice records though in the late 90's. That was about it...

The other night,I was listening to an oldies R&B station and they played three great R&B songs in a row:

"Love's Train" by Con Funk Shun

"Yearning For Your Love" by Gap Band

"Tell Me If You Still Care" by the SOS Band

and I was like,"damn...why can't today's R&B sound this good??!!" Those three songs are soulful,genuine and do not feature a trace of rap or hip-hop.

Contrary to popular belief,great R&B music can be made without using any hip-hop elements.

That would also require you to know how to write music.

Diddy "wouldn't know a B-flat" if it hit him. Quincy Jones

See you are asking too much.

TD3 said:

SoulAlive said:

The other night,I was listening to an oldies R&B station and they played three great R&B songs in a row:

"Love's Train" by Con Funk Shun

"Yearning For Your Love" by Gap Band

"Tell Me If You Still Care" by the SOS Band

and I was like,"damn...why can't today's R&B sound this good??!!" Those three songs are soulful,genuine and do not feature a trace of rap or hip-hop.

Contrary to popular belief,great R&B music can be made without using any hip-hop elements.

That would also require you to know how to write music.

Diddy "wouldn't know a B-flat" if it hit him. Quincy Jones

See you are asking too much.

that's true

TD3 said:

SoulAlive said:

The other night,I was listening to an oldies R&B station and they played three great R&B songs in a row:

"Love's Train" by Con Funk Shun

"Yearning For Your Love" by Gap Band

"Tell Me If You Still Care" by the SOS Band

and I was like,"damn...why can't today's R&B sound this good??!!" Those three songs are soulful,genuine and do not feature a trace of rap or hip-hop.

Contrary to popular belief,great R&B music can be made without using any hip-hop elements.

That would also require you to know how to write music.

Diddy "wouldn't know a B-flat" if it hit him. Quincy Jones

See you are asking too much.

amen

To be fair there are hip hop producers who do know music.

Listen to Battlecat, Fredwreck, Soopafly, DJ Quik, Ant Banks....

[Edited 1/27/13 16:36pm]

SoulAlive said:

Yes! I have been saying this for years!! R&B needs to separate itself from the hip-hop movement.The two genres do not need to be combined.I am sick of R&B albums where every other song is a collaboration with a rapper.Mariah Carey acts like she can't make an album without a bunch of rappers all over it.

Righ on SoulAlive!! I'm with you on this 100%. And, it's not just Mariah, it's almost every R&B singer. I wouldn't mind a duet from time to time, but they have to stop with all the rap collaborations and get back to great songs and great singing.

Marrk said:

neoretro7 said:

R&B/Soul music is fractured and not like what it used to be. I long for the days in the 90's when there was Boyz II Men, Brian McKnight, R Kelly, Toni Braxton, Babyface, Mariah Carey etc. That was R&B in it's purest form and all these artists became very popular and released unforgetable music that immortalizes their artistry.

Funny you say that. It might be a generational thing but soul/R'n'B to me was way better in the 60's 70's and 80's. Those acts you mentioned represent the beginning of the end to me.

[Edited 1/24/13 5:14am]

I may be young but I do know enough about R&B music.

I believe the 90's was the last decade of hearing authentic R&B music. The 00's was a hit and miss decade.

neoretro7 said:

Marrk said:

Funny you say that. It might be a generational thing but soul/R'n'B to me was way better in the 60's 70's and 80's. Those acts you mentioned represent the beginning of the end to me.

[Edited 1/24/13 5:14am]

I may be young but I do know enough about R&B music.

I believe the 90's was the last decade of hearing authentic R&B music. The 00's was a hit and miss decade.

So called "BEEF" messed up the music business to me. Instead of taking shots and holding each other down , focus on music more . Overall the 90s had good r&b but the 80's had the BEST!(Even though I wasn't in the decade)

SimpleSoul said:

So called "BEEF" messed up the music business to me. Instead of taking shots and holding each other down , focus on music more.

Decades ago, the mafia probably kept many of the acts in check, since they were running pretty much the entire entertainment industry. Those acts had to like performing, since most of them wasn't making much money. Some literally got paid in cash, fur coats, drugs, cars, etc. instead of royalties.

MickyDolenz said:

SimpleSoul said:

So called "BEEF" messed up the music business to me. Instead of taking shots and holding each other down , focus on music more.

Decades ago, the mafia probably kept many of the acts in check, since they were running pretty much the entire entertainment industry. Those acts had to like performing, since most of them wasn't making much money. Some literally got paid in cash, fur coats, drugs, cars, etc. instead of royalties.

Whoa...

SimpleSoul said:

MickyDolenz said:

Decades ago, the mafia probably kept many of the acts in check, since they were running pretty much the entire entertainment industry. Those acts had to like performing, since most of them wasn't making much money. Some literally got paid in cash, fur coats, drugs, cars, etc. instead of royalties.

Whoa...

Even Berry Gordy was rumored to have mob help in the 1960's, which he denied. Concert & club promoters also ripped off the acts. James Brown would not perform unless he was paid up front.

MickyDolenz said:

SimpleSoul said:

Whoa...

Even Berry Gordy was rumored to have mob help in the 1960's, which he denied. Concert & club promoters also ripped off the acts. James Brown would not perform unless he was paid up front.

So the business is like a brothel and the acts were the "B's".

In MY opinion, Autotune is what killed R&B. Not to mention too much credit being given to singers with pitch issues and their shocking inability to lack any sense of melody. There are not many REAL "singers" around today, and those that ARE, are sadly ignored by R&B audiences and embraced more by Pop audiences (Jennifer Hudson, Leona Lewis and a host of others.) After Deborah Cox in the 90's, is when it all began doing downhill. Hip Hop certainly did not help the genre any with its pointless and mostly illiterate vernacular appearing within most "literate" songs. Such a divorce is VERY necessary if REAL R&B is ever 2 make a comeback. The Neo Soul Movement has made significant headway, however even THAT headway has slipped beyond belief. Jill Scott along with Erykah Badu seem 2 have a clue tho.

"Relevant' may mean different things, depending on context.

Commercial relevance is impossible without hip-hop at this point.

Artistic relevance -- making good records -- can and is being done. I don't necessarily think commercial success determines relevance as an artist.

There is no need for radio to rescue R&B from irrelevance; audiences need only support the artists making great records. 15 years ago that may have been impossible to do because most of us wwe dependent on the radio, video stations and stores to point us in the right direction. There's no excuse for not finding it now.

It would be nice to just turn on the radio and not hear a guest rapper. Sometimes I get tired of 2Chainz, Drake, Lil Wayne, Kanye & Jay Z. I wanna hear some vocal acrobatics without having to change the station dammit!

Bouncy doesn't count.

Terrib3Towel said:

It would be nice to just turn on the radio and not hear a guest rapper. Sometimes I get tired of 2Chainz, Drake, Lil Wayne, Kanye & Jay Z. I wanna hear some vocal acrobatics without having to change the station dammit!

Bouncy doesn't count.

Then again it's time for us to hear the word woman and lady again

This again...

First off, MAINSTREAM 90s R&B was as generic as they come. It was the beginning of the end for R&B in the mainstream.

Secondly, without going into how the divisiveness of the music industry is a reflection of the divisiveness of American society overall due to corporate capitalism and how that very capitalism is fuel for profit, I will say that good R&B has not gone anywhere. Again, people who expect Sony and the other corporate conglomerates to deliver "good R&B" to them are going to remain sadly disappointed. Times change. That has not stopped the production of good music. I was just bumpin' Anthony David, Cedric Le'mont, etc. and last I checked, those are recent releases. R&B is still alive and kicking if you know where to look for it or if you even care to look for it. Google R&B internet radio stations and it can still come to you.

The game hasn't stopped; it has just changed venues.

Thirdly, the R&B/rap combo is a CORPORATE decision made by old white guys in suits crunching profitibility projection numbers.

If _______ demographic listens to this and the also listen to that, then they will more than likely listen to this + that. It ain't brain surgery. Part of the problem is the music listening community taking a non-active role in the decision-making process of what their base demands as far as quality and acceptability goes.

If you "just say no" that shit will go away. If you say nothing or accept it, yoiu get more.

BlaqueKnight said:

This again...

First off, MAINSTREAM 90s R&B was as generic as they come. It was the beginning of the end for R&B in the mainstream.

Secondly, without going into how the divisiveness of the music industry is a reflection of the divisiveness of American society overall due to corporate capitalism and how that very capitalism is fuel for profit, I will say that good R&B has not gone anywhere. Again, people who expect Sony and the other corporate conglomerates to deliver "good R&B" to them are going to remain sadly disappointed. Times change. That has not stopped the production of good music. I was just bumpin' Anthony David, Cedric Le'mont, etc. and last I checked, those are recent releases. R&B is still alive and kicking if you know where to look for it or if you even care to look for it. Google R&B internet radio stations and it can still come to you.

The game hasn't stopped; it has just changed venues.

Thirdly, the R&B/rap combo is a CORPORATE decision made by old white guys in suits crunching profitibility projection numbers.

If _______ demographic listens to this and the also listen to that, then they will more than likely listen to this + that. It ain't brain surgery. Part of the problem is the music listening community taking a non-active role in the decision-making process of what their base demands as far as quality and acceptability goes.

If you "just say no" that shit will go away. If you say nothing or accept it, yoiu get more.

All very true, but i will even go further as to say there is even good stuff at labels, lets not get lost in the fairy tale that the gems are the indie artists cause there is just as much shit going out indie, just pick up some rap mix tapes and see how bad the game is, problem is alot of "indies" just wanna play THAT GAME too, so places like World Star Hip Hop etc...and those indie cats are just passing the cancer on. Out of the 5 million videos they have shown i think maybe 5 are interesting artists. also the "number crunching dudes in suits AINT just not old white guys" Jayz, Puffy, JD, and others have build alot of property off that game of selling out the soul. But of course they are the first to say they are "real".

And lastly and people dont like to hear this but the issue is Music has lost its meaning to MOST the population, and that is true, now i know almost every person u see has an ipod, but the music on it, is what everyone else has, or wasnt bought etc...and you cant survive forever losing money, im not saying you gotta bling bling, but you cant do year in year out with no form of profit.

A great example is Kelly Rowland and 2 Chainz, such an awful combination compared to the light-hearted collab with Nelly years ago. Kelly can carry a whole song by herself vocally, but you get this illiterate cretin to start mumblin and ruining an interesting track.

R+B also needs to stop increasing everything to 120bpm after the first verse and over into the chorus.

This also all ties in with the lack of music education or knowledge, listen to a Babyface, Prince, Jimmy Jam/Terry Lewis track and compare it to one of these clowns that just use ProTools, Acid Pro, etc to make "music"....

SimpleSoul said:

MickyDolenz said:

Even Berry Gordy was rumored to have mob help in the 1960's, which he denied. Concert & club promoters also ripped off the acts. James Brown would not perform unless he was paid up front.

So the business is like a brothel and the acts were the "B's".

I read Raynoma Gordy's book, (Berry's ex wife). In it, she said Berry Gordy was a small time pimp.

MadamGoodnight said:

SimpleSoul said:

So the business is like a brothel and the acts were the "B's".

I read Raynoma Gordy's book, (Berry's ex wife). In it, she said Berry Gordy was a small time pimp.

From stories and stuff I never knew berry was that low

SimpleSoul said:

MadamGoodnight said:

I read Raynoma Gordy's book, (Berry's ex wife). In it, she said Berry Gordy was a small time pimp.

From stories and stuff I never knew berry was that low

He did it in his early days. According to her, Berry said he wasn't cut out for it. The other pimps beat their women, forced them on the street if they were sick or pregnant. Berry had some girls, but he couldn't make them go out on the street, and felt sorry for them. Plus, Raynoma said the other pimps had fine clothes, and Cadillacs, while Berry was on the bus with raggedy clothes. He was a po' pimp.

MadamGoodnight said:

SimpleSoul said:

From stories and stuff I never knew berry was that low

He did it in his early days. According to her, Berry said he wasn't cut out for it. The other pimps beat their women, forced them on the street if they were sick or pregnant. Berry had some girls, but he couldn't make them go out on the street, and felt sorry for them. Plus, Raynoma said the other pimps had fine clothes, and Cadillacs, while Berry was on the bus with raggedy clothes. He was a po' pimp.

Then motown came along and he had power. But in this case I feel a little sorry for berry because he felt bad about making them go out but in other cases no remorse

gdiminished said:

A great example is Kelly Rowland and 2 Chainz, such an awful combination compared to the light-hearted collab with Nelly years ago. Kelly can carry a whole song by herself vocally, but you get this illiterate cretin to start mumblin and ruining an interesting track.

R+B also needs to stop increasing everything to 120bpm after the first verse and over into the chorus.

This also all ties in with the lack of music education or knowledge, listen to a Babyface, Prince, Jimmy Jam/Terry Lewis track and compare it to one of these clowns that just use ProTools, Acid Pro, etc to make "music"....

Well, to be honest, practically every major (and minor) CD release from a great number of artists is made on Protools. Protools is a recording system. A digital mixing board with effects (to oversimplify).

I could see your case being made better with an MPC as an example.

Still, I get the gist of what you are saying. Less musicality is a problem.

Kelly came up in a pop/R&B market. She has talent and an image already. The problem is that R&B is not being $upported enough for artists like her, so she changes her style and sound every 6 months and goes where the money is. That is the case for a lot of artists nowadays - they go where the money is. When you don't spend money on something, it suffers.

Still, there is a lot of good R&B going on; its just usually not coming out of the radio on your drive home from work.

Internet radio is where its at. You have to find your crowd.

BlaqueKnight said:

gdiminished said:

A great example is Kelly Rowland and 2 Chainz, such an awful combination compared to the light-hearted collab with Nelly years ago. Kelly can carry a whole song by herself vocally, but you get this illiterate cretin to start mumblin and ruining an interesting track.

R+B also needs to stop increasing everything to 120bpm after the first verse and over into the chorus.

This also all ties in with the lack of music education or knowledge, listen to a Babyface, Prince, Jimmy Jam/Terry Lewis track and compare it to one of these clowns that just use ProTools, Acid Pro, etc to make "music"....

Well, to be honest, practically every major (and minor) CD release from a great number of artists is made on Protools. Protools is a recording system. A digital mixing board with effects (to oversimplify).

I could see your case being made better with an MPC as an example.

Still, I get the gist of what you are saying. Less musicality is a problem.

Kelly came up in a pop/R&B market. She has talent and an image already. The problem is that R&B is not being $upported enough for artists like her, so she changes her style and sound every 6 months and goes where the money is. That is the case for a lot of artists nowadays - they go where the money is. When you don't spend money on something, it suffers.

Still, there is a lot of good R&B going on; its just usually not coming out of the radio on your drive home from work.

Internet radio is where its at. You have to find your crowd.

MPC all day, but as great as it was in the 80s and 90s, its time has come and gone. Stronger musicianship is needed for the sake of the art.