How come the reason of the crash was never determined? Was it because it was assumed that they flyed in bad weather? What I'm saying is, why wasn't there a thorough investigation or anything? Did they try to find the flight recorder or black box to figure out why the plane went down less than 4 miles away from them landing? I've searched and can't really find anything about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard somewhere (probably here) that Otis bought that plane from James Brown.

Sorry for the rambling, I just heard an Otis song here at work and got moved deeply and saddened for a bit that he was taken away from us so early. How would music be now if he were still alive?

Yes, James Brown was the previous owner of the doomed twin-engine aircraft which Redding purchased. Flight Data Recorders aren't required aboard small non-commerical airplanes.

Identity said:

Yes, James Brown was the previous owner of the doomed twin-engine aircraft which Redding purchased. Flight Data Recorders aren't required aboard small non-commerical airplanes.

missfee said:

Identity said:

Yes, James Brown was the previous owner of the doomed twin-engine aircraft which Redding purchased. Flight Data Recorders aren't required aboard small non-commerical airplanes.

PANDURITO said:

missfee said:

I read that James told him it was a bad plane??

I don't believe that conversation ever happened.

That's like a car dealer warning buyers to be aware that every vehicle on the lot has faulty brakes--and you buy a car from him anyway.

Identity said:

I don't believe that conversation ever happened.

That's like a car dealer warning buyers to be aware that every vehicle on the lot has faulty brakes--and you buy a car from him anyway.

Otis Redding was his good friends. i doubt he'd sell him a faulty plane without both parties knowing. Now, if this was Joe Tex he sold it too ...

[img:$uid]http://i48.tinypic.com/350mq83.jpg[/img:$uid]

In the above photo is Ben Cauley, former Bar-Kays trumpeter and sole crash survivor. It took him over 30 years to return to the crash site. I think he was 20 at the time of the mishap.

Identity said:

[img:$uid]http://i48.tinypic.com/350mq83.jpg[/img:$uid]

In the above photo is Ben Cauley, former Bar-Kays trumpeter and sole crash survivor. It took him over 30 years to return to the crash site. I think he was 20 at the time of the mishap.

Yeah, from the Unsung episode of the Bar-Kays a couple of years ago, he still seemed very much affected by the crash...and understandably so.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I read that James told him it was a bad plane??

If this is true, wonder if James felt any residual guilt when Otis died?

U guys are just full of info.

I never knew JB used 2 own that plane.

It's sad that this death could've been prevented... I still shake my head as to why Otis would trust a faulty engine on an airplane to take them somewhere. Was Otis that stubborn enough to take that risk that he knew would be costly to people's lives? Otis should've listened to James.

Also, there was talk that Otis, James, and I believe, Ray, were talking about starting a business together to uplift black youths in their native Georgia or something and that Otis' death prevented this from happening.

missfee said:

Identity said:

[img:$uid]http://i48.tinypic.com/350mq83.jpg[/img:$uid]

In the above photo is Ben Cauley, former Bar-Kays trumpeter and sole crash survivor. It took him over 30 years to return to the crash site. I think he was 20 at the time of the mishap.

Yeah, from the Unsung episode of the Bar-Kays a couple of years ago, he still seemed very much affected by the crash...and understandably so.

I just feel so much for him. But he survived the odds and that makes his story one of the greatest in music that he survived a fatal plane crash. I still cry whenever I think about what he had to go through during and after the crash. God bless Ben Cauley. Seriously.

missfee said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I read that James told him it was a bad plane??

If this is true, wonder if James felt any residual guilt when Otis died?

James wouldn't have let you see him feel any pain but I'm sure he did. James may have been a bully but he wasn't without any remorse for other people, especially people he actually considered a friend, like Otis.

Timmy84 said:

It's sad that this death could've been prevented... I still shake my head as to why Otis would trust a faulty engine on an airplane to take them somewhere. Was Otis that stubborn enough to take that risk that he knew would be costly to people's lives? Otis should've listened to James.

Also, there was talk that Otis, James, and I believe, Ray, were talking about starting a business together to uplift black youths in their native Georgia or something and that Otis' death prevented this from happening.

But then it goes back to why James sold him this plane in the first place if he knew it was faulty. I'm not saying it's soley James fault, but if he and Otis were such good friends, then James would had gotten the engine REPLACED before selling it.

missfee said:

Timmy84 said:

It's sad that this death could've been prevented... I still shake my head as to why Otis would trust a faulty engine on an airplane to take them somewhere. Was Otis that stubborn enough to take that risk that he knew would be costly to people's lives? Otis should've listened to James.

Also, there was talk that Otis, James, and I believe, Ray, were talking about starting a business together to uplift black youths in their native Georgia or something and that Otis' death prevented this from happening.

But then it goes back to why James sold him this plane in the first place if he knew it was faulty. I'm not saying it's soley James fault, but if he and Otis were such good friends, then James would had gotten the engine REPLACED before selling it.

Good point... you know now that you said it, I had to wonder... did Otis KNEW the plane was faulty? And if James really did know, as it's indicated, then did he tell him or didn't?

Okay, people - let's set this straight.

I grew up (and still live) in Madison, WI - where Redding's plane went down in 1967. And I was alive when it happened, so...

It was December, people. Have you ever been to Wisconsin in December? It's usually freezing (which it was on that particular date) - and there was also heavy rain and fog that afternoon. The plane had been cleared for landing when approximately three miles out from the airport - and the pilot gave no indication of engine trouble. All but one of the people onboard died - and the deaths were due to drowning. In other words, they didn't die from the crash - though one report I've read said Redding (who was sitting in the co-pilot's seat) may have been knocked unconscious.

A black box? On a private, twin-engine plane in 1967? Come on, now. The first flight data recorders weren't installed on commercial aircraft until the early 60s. (A simple google search will yield that information.)

Here is my speculation: It is possible there was ice on the wings. Fog is often caused by a temperature inversion, and icing can be a particular worry in those conditions.

Do you know how icing affects how a plane flies? There are two kinds of ice - clear and rime. Clear ice is dangerous because (especially if there's precipitation hampering the pilot's vision) it's almost impossible to see accumulating on the wings - until the plane becomes too heavy to fly. Rime ice is easier to see, but it distorts the airfoil shape of the wings - which, especially if you're trying to land, is going to be a problem because you can't generate the right lift during the landing. Ice can also accumulate on propellors, further affecting flight. None of this has anything to do with the engine.

But we can't know about ice - because once the plane hit the water (it's rare for Lake Monona to freeze before January), the ice would have been gone. And the left engine and prop were never recovered - so we can't know whether there was engine trouble. (That lake is very silty and the remaining wreckage is probably still buried in the lake bed.)

That is why we don't know what happened. Not because James Brown was an awful guy who sold Otis Redding a faulty plane - or any other nefarious reason.

Young people are so funny - they invariably think we've always had the tools we possess today (forensic, in this case). Well, kiddies - we haven't.

lol I have to admit my posts did seem real knee jerking...

But yeah you're right, it was mad cold in Wisconsin. Just like it was cold eight years ago when Buddy Holly, Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens died similar deaths. I guess all these theories won't solve what "really happened".

I see your point Gen.

Nevermind.

[Edited 7/18/12 8:56am]

Crazy thing about those times is that people definitely were taking risks just to get a gig. Even if it was cold, they wouldn't care. They'll just go out and do it because they had to make money. And Otis was always about his business so he wasn't gonna cancel a flight because he probably knew there was money to be had and he risked it to do it regardless if it was a faulty engine on the plane or not. I don't know if he did it selfishly, if he really knew of the conditions or not, but I still think it could've all been avoided but I guess that's why times are so different now because people won't schedule concert dates if they felt their plane wouldn't take the weather whereas back then folks felt they had no choice but to go on.

Timmy84 said:

lol I have to admit my posts did seem real knee jerking...

But yeah you're right, it was mad cold in Wisconsin. Just like it was cold eight years ago when Buddy Holly, Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens died similar deaths. I guess all these theories won't solve what "really happened".

I see your point Gen.

At this point, all we need to know is that a great artist died before his full potential was realized. The why of it doesn't really matter, anymore.

Here's a funny story, though. One night (about 20 years after the crash), one of my friends and I were having dinner with a colleague who was in Madison on business. We were sort of filling him in on interesting Madison lore, and I said, "Oh - and Otis Redding died here." The guy said, "Right here in this restaurant?! " "Uh...no. His plane crashed in Lake Monona. You know - the lake we can see from our office windows."

missfee said:

Nevermind.

[Edited 7/18/12 8:56am]

Too late.

Genesia said:

Timmy84 said:

lol I have to admit my posts did seem real knee jerking...

But yeah you're right, it was mad cold in Wisconsin. Just like it was cold eight years ago when Buddy Holly, Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens died similar deaths. I guess all these theories won't solve what "really happened".

I see your point Gen.

At this point, all we need to know is that a great artist died before his full potential was realized. The why of it doesn't really matter, anymore.

Here's a funny story, though. One night (about 20 years after the crash), one of my friends and I were having dinner with a colleague who was in Madison on business. We were sort of filling him in on interesting Madison lore, and I said, "Oh - and Otis Redding died here." The guy said, "Right here in this restaurant?! " "Uh...no. His plane crashed in Lake Monona. You know - the lake we can see from our office windows."

lol that kinda reminds me of those Elvis stories and people would go "this (city) is where Elvis died" at Memphis restaurants and folks would go "he died in a restaurant?" lol

Timmy84 said:

Crazy thing about those times is that people definitely were taking risks just to get a gig. Even if it was cold, they wouldn't care. They'll just go out and do it because they had to make money. And Otis was always about his business so he wasn't gonna cancel a flight because he probably knew there was money to be had and he risked it to do it regardless if it was a faulty engine on the plane or not. I don't know if he did it selfishly, if he really knew of the conditions or not, but I still think it could've all been avoided but I guess that's why times are so different now because people won't schedule concert dates if they felt their plane wouldn't take the weather whereas back then folks felt they had no choice but to go on.

I did read one account that said someone did try to talk him out of it, given the weather report. And considering that they flew in a 3:30 that afternoon for a gig the same evening, they were cutting it pretty close.

Another legend is that there was a briefcase with the money from the previous night's gig (in Ohio) that went missing.

Timmy84 said:

Crazy thing about those times is that people definitely were taking risks just to get a gig. Even if it was cold, they wouldn't care. They'll just go out and do it because they had to make money. And Otis was always about his business so he wasn't gonna cancel a flight because he probably knew there was money to be had and he risked it to do it regardless if it was a faulty engine on the plane or not. I don't know if he did it selfishly, if he really knew of the conditions or not, but I still think it could've all been avoided but I guess that's why times are so different now because people won't schedule concert dates if they felt their plane wouldn't take the weather whereas back then folks felt they had no choice but to go on.

According to the interviews on Unsung, I do remember somebody saying that the one of the last things Otis said to him was "Gotta go make this money"...so yeah the money was definitely a motivator over safety in his thinking at the time.

Sad, so many other artists died from plane crashes:

John Denver

Patsy Cline

Buddy Holly

Richie Valens

Big Bopper

Ricky Nelson

Stevie Ray Vaughn (helicopter)

Aliyah

Any others?

missfee said:

Timmy84 said:

Crazy thing about those times is that people definitely were taking risks just to get a gig. Even if it was cold, they wouldn't care. They'll just go out and do it because they had to make money. And Otis was always about his business so he wasn't gonna cancel a flight because he probably knew there was money to be had and he risked it to do it regardless if it was a faulty engine on the plane or not. I don't know if he did it selfishly, if he really knew of the conditions or not, but I still think it could've all been avoided but I guess that's why times are so different now because people won't schedule concert dates if they felt their plane wouldn't take the weather whereas back then folks felt they had no choice but to go on.

According to the interviews on Unsung, I do remember somebody saying that the one of the last things Otis said to him was "Gotta go make this money"...so yeah the money was definitely a motivator over safety in his thinking at the time.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if he saw a big money deal to be had and decided "forget the reports, we gotta make the show tonight so we can get paid". Unfortunately, of course, they didn't get there.

runphilrun said:

Sad, so many other artists died from plane crashes:

John Denver

Patsy Cline

Buddy Holly

Richie Valens

Big Bopper

Ricky Nelson

Stevie Ray Vaughn (helicopter)

Aliyah

Any others?

Also in Wisconsin (near East Troy). But not a plane crash. He was in a helicopter.

runphilrun said:

Sad, so many other artists died from plane crashes:

John Denver

Patsy Cline

Buddy Holly

Richie Valens

Big Bopper

Ricky Nelson

Stevie Ray Vaughn (helicopter)

Aliyah

Any others?

Melanie Thornton

Nobody really knows her, but she was a black, American-born pop singer in Germany. She died in a plane crash in 2001 sometime after Aaliyah's death.