DigitalLisa said:

I kind of glazed over this post the first time, but I'd like to re-illustrate it.

You are right, It isn't this way. When white people listen to rap music they are labelled Wankstas, or however you want to spell it. But the point is not what the current situation is, it's how the situation should be.

In that sense, music should not be racially exclusive. To assign a genre of "Black Music" typefies racial exclusivity, and therefore there is no such thing as Black music.

Put it in another sense.

If we were to ask "Are black people inferior to white people", the standard answer by most sensible people would be a resounding "No". But, as we all know, racism is still very evident in this world, and many many people consider black people inferior to white people. Less than 100 years ago MOST people considered black people inferior. Even some black people were led to believe that they weren't as good as white people, because they were always put down. But, just because most people do, or at least did perceive black's as inferior does not make it true.

If the question were "Can some races identify more with certain musical genres than others at this current point and time in human history?", my answer would be yes.

If the question was "Are there racial borders in modern music?", my answer would also be yes.

But "Is there such a thing as Black Music?" is clearly a no. It's not a properly framed question, and the classification of "Black Music" doesn't tell us anything.

I usually, don't post this much on one topic, but I just recently wrote a paper comparing Davis' free-form musical structure on Kind of Blue to Ellison's free-form writing structure in Invisible Man. A must-read and must-hear, if you haven't already. Anyways, suffice to say, I have recently been studying artistic ties with African-American identity in the 20th century, so this topic has interested me more than usual

PS. These two artists that I mentioned both had the goal of making their pieces of art identifiable with all races, while at the same time expressing messages of detachment from white society. You see? You can still speak about your own racial identity without your work being deemed "exclusively black".

Listen, I know I'm being defensive, but well, why shouldn't I be defensive of something I believe in? But, I don't want to argue, I honestly don't. My entire point was that nothing, nothing, should have color assigned to it. All that does is perpetuate racism and detachment between cultures.

I'm sorry if it didn't come across this way, I really am wolf. But at least it got people reading. At least it got you reading. Thank you wolf. At the very least, I appreciate that.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 1 1:35:04 PST 2003 by savoirfaire]

savoirfaire said:

Hey, I'm just speaking my mind on the subject. No need to say "Where the fuck do you get off" to ME. And how am I, personally, RESTRICTING musicians who aren't black from playing the kind of music they want to play? Where anywhere in my post do I say ANYTHING to support this? Let me know, because I sure would like to hear it. Especially from someone who apparently claims NEVER to EVER have had a racist thought about anyone in their life.

At least I'm honest about where I'm at and where I'm coming from, and I can admit that I'm not perfect and have had mean and generalizing thoughts from time to time. And NO, I cannot see into everyone's brains, but I'm making an educated guess, and I'm pretty sure some people would agree with me on that subject. But of course, YOU must be so perfect, and have such pure thoughts, that you could never understand what us "normal" people have on their minds, and how it's difficult at times to see the music world as being all-inclusive.

You seem to be living in what you perceive to be a utopian world, or least wish for that, but WAKE UP! It's not like that, and probably never will be. It would be nice, but I am a realist, and the only thing I can do is to own up to my own faults and work from there.

By the way, I am of mixed-race, but that shouldn't matter.

P.S. You talk about how we need to break down cultural walls, and basically live as one, but it's people like you who get all riled up from someone telling the truth that prevents this from happening. So, you better go be sick some more from what I've just written, and I'd also suggest some anger-management classes for yourself. Looks like you need them, and quick!
Geez, lighten-up man!

XLBubba said:

You guys need to stop being naieve, there is cultural and racial differences and that is just the way it is. it's like you will never see me at a River Dance concert because I just can't relate that is a caucasian thing.

Black music is Black music. Black music, the lyrics, the rythem patterns are derived from our culture. The lyrics that most of you people have heard you never experienced it or heard it before until it was released as a song.

Nothing shaped what you hear on the radio more than Rhythm & Blues.Did you know the word "Funk" took its name from a black slang expression meaning body odor.

Look Black Music is the history of African-Americans in America. Black Music is the feelings and thoughts of Black People who had to exist within a society but yet we were forced to remain separate from it. So when you guys are talking about Black Music you are talking about my African-American history and heritage. Bascially yes there is a thing such as BLACK MUSIC!!!

gman1966 said:

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to say in my post, but then I got flamed for being racist for putting music into categories!

minneapolisgenius said:

Damn right!!! Nothing, Nothing annoys me more when OTHERS try to debate me about my culture.

just what i mean.

A suburban boy from the suburbs will never understand the real and true meaning of "The Message"

Or read books like "Down These Mean Streets" or "Manchild In The Promised Land" or "Mama's Black Widow"

In the same vein as no person in the ghetto would be caught dead reading, "Sweet Valley High" or "Sherlock Holmes"

So dont even try that on me or us.

Even the clothing line "Fubu" sets caucasians off, just as "Tommy Hilfiger" sets off blacks. But U STILL C WHITE & BLACK PEOPLE WEAR IT!!

Dont gimme dat aint no racist mess, there sho nuff is, and always will be.

As long as people still representing Mexicans as Lo Riding car operators (movie Ghost Ship)

Representing Blacks as a sub culture (Martin Lawrence in National Security)

White people as diry & money hungry (Undercover Brutha or Down 2 Earth).

paisleypark4 said:

Absolutely Brutha!!! It brings a smile to my face when I hear "Oh golly, you should not categorize. Music is Music"
You know Prince is extremely pro-black with the Rainbow Children. The songs "Avalance" and "Family Name" directly targets some of the African-American experience in this country.

paisleypark4 said:

Or read the book that EVERY young black man should read.

"The Autobiography of Malcolm X"

One of the greatest black men that ever lived!!!

To all the Brutha's and Sista's on this site. Circulate this information so we never forget where we came from. This is how the BLUES started, this is the basis of the late great Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit"

"Searching through America's past for the last 25 years, collector James Allen uncovered an extraordinary visual legacy: photographs and postcards taken as souvenirs at lynchings throughout America. With essays by Hilton Als, Leon Litwack, Congressman John Lewis and James Allen, these photographs have been published as a book – "Without Sanctuary" by Twin Palms Publishers . Please be aware before entering the site that much of the material is very disturbing. We welcome your comments and input through the forum section.

Experience the images as a flash movie with narrative comments by James Allen, or as a gallery of photos which includes 81 postcards. Participate in a forum about the images, and contact us if you know of other similar postcards and photographs.

When you are finished viewing Without Sanctuary, please take a moment to register with Musarium. The confidential information you give will aid us in bringing you more compelling online presentations. "

http://www.journale.com:1...sanctuary/

gman1966 said:

Those are some pretty intense images there. I still can't believe that actually happened, it's completely insane, and very sad. Thanks for the link.

savoirfaire said:

Never forget where you came from man and who paved the way for you. Never!!!

http://www.journale.com:1...sanctuary/

Ok, I'm sorry for getting people so riled up. I noticed one of my posts was frequently drawn attention to, while the other was ignored. The last one. But, it doesn't matter.

In retrospect, I guess it was pretty naiive of me thinking I could summarize the flaws of the belief surrounding racial discrimination in music. It's an issue that's been discussed for most of the latter half of the twentieth century, and I'm going to point out the errors of this question in a couple of org posts?? Hell, no.

And, at the same time, I admit I will never be able to identify with the African-American experience, as well as an African-American can, just as many of you will never be able identify with the European-American experience as well as I can. We can both yell day and night, acting as if we fully understand each other, but we don't, and probably never will.

But, to me, this wasn't a question of different people relating to different types of music. This was a question of if music should be labelled racially. To that, I still hold true that the answer is no. We are all products of circumstance, and in that regard, it doesn't matter what color you are, it is all about how you have lived that determines how you identify with music. White, Black, Asian, whatever. Let those that be, be, no need to assign color to yet another thing in this world.

My 2 Cents. Cheers.

Look I'm not gonna be fake or niave and say there is no such thing as black music, there is a difference rather you want to admit it to yourselves or not. If this was not the case, hip hop would've tooken so long into getting into the main stream of music. I mean it wasn't until the late eighties until rap music was even apart of the grammy's, why because it started out as black music, not only black music, but it was black music from the black youth of the streets.Black music to me is blues, R&B, hip hop, rock n roll, jazz and gospel... alot of people come in try 2 imatate it the best way possible...

I mean you don't hear people debate salsa music not being spanish music, why because salsa music was created by latino's and there for it is latin music, same goes for indie music, or reaggae music, it was created and inspired by the culture there for it is called what it is, you can agree to disagree with me I'm just telling the truth for what it is. In fact D'aneglo stated that what he does is Black music and he's making his contributes to it in the best way he can

Nobody denied what Ricky Ricardo was singing was latin music ...

savoirfaire said:

savoirfaire said:

at least you came clean.

not to mention if that was the case, if music wasn't identifield racailly, there would be no such thing as black radio stations or BET, all music would get played on all the same radio stations and all music videos would get played on all the same tv stations but that ain't the case. Cuz here in Detroit we got about three different black radio stations, as well as a latin station and a reagga stations, also a stations that plays mostly pop music which most people would consider as white music... so that should tell you something right there

Wolf said:

I came clean several posts ago. By the way, I would also dispute that salsa reference that was made. I would also dispute the Baroque period if people classified it as white music. Anyways, this isn't going anywhere. Nobody's listening. Maybe we're all beating a dead horse now.

And lastly, thank you for once again, taking a section of my post, ignoring the rest, and allowing people to analyze only one segment of that.

Ever seen that Simpson's where Homer is accused of molesting that girl "I just wanted to grab her sweet sweet can". If you haven't, then you don't know what I'm talking about of course.

But... why am I prattling on? I never do this. Strange. I guess it's because things need to be said. This entire post has turned into one of those religious arguments where people gloss over the pertinent information, and attack the obvious text. I think I maybe, might be one of those obsessed people that wants to get the last word in. Or at least I want people to understand where I'm coming from. Isn't that what we're all getting at? Understanding where we come from? Try it. Understand. I have.

PS. One last thing. Unless something NEW is contributed to this, I am done on here, because it's fairly useless. I am sorry for dragging this thing on, it was dead a long time ago. The arguments in favor have started to sound like a broken record, a sign that the thread is dead.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 1 19:14:39 PST 2003 by savoirfaire]

DigitalLisa said:

...

If there wasn't a difference then Ludacris would get played on the same station as Barbra Stristein... Trick daddy would get played on the same station as Frank Sinstra... LiL Kim would get played on the same station as Tori Amos...

savoirfaire said:

and you wouldn't have to if you never brought up your own lie. nothing else you say has any plausibility after that but, keep right on.

You would have little white kids singing singing songs from Raphel Sadiqq and little black kids singing songs from the rolling stones

savoirfaire said:

Dude I do now know WTF you are talking about but that is your opinion.

gman1966 said:

did you mean do "not" know? just a point of clarification, because it can mean two different things.

And wolf. I think you meant to say "credibility". I think plausibility relates to how likely something is to happen. And I never lost credibility. You just refused to acknowledge it.

Good job mastering the eye roll emoticon though. It really drives the point across.

And still, nothing else have you said but I should have come clean. However, had I not been exposed so quick, I would have come clean, and my intention would have been seen. Nothing... nothing whatsoever, about racial boundaries, socio-context, understanding where we come from, not even about trying to break down the question into something that can be answered, have you commented on. Just this single damn sentence.

I have been understanding and patient this whole time, attempted to state a final point in a calm and easy to read manner. Something which we could all agree on, something which you could hopefully understand.

And at the very least, I'm more than open to points against my arguments, but you haven't even offered that. You just harp on this one thing without even contributing to the "discussion" the entire time.

Most would attack character, as you have done by constantly rehashing this. But some... only some attack flawed points. And, if my points are flawed, I truly want to know. It is not my intention to live in a hole. I want to grow and learn. Maybe you are right, but I haven't been shown this. But if you are right, I want to be shown. But you're not showing me anything, or helping in the least with your eye rolls and repetitive attack against a sentence which was designed to see if people should decide whether or not to agree with my points on the basis of my color.

It contributes nothing. Now please, go back, ignore that sentence, which I have decided not to edit out in the interest of this discussion, read all of my points, and deconstruct them. If you can deconstruct them, please post your criticisms, and if you cannot deconstruct them, at the very least, merit the fact that I have some very pointed arguments. That is all I ask.

Now I know you can easily take one or two sentences out of this and roll your eyes again. Let's see if you will.

By the way, your arguing my points is not a challenge. I only desire individual growth, as I am sure you do as well.

Well this be the last time? I don't know, these responses are just so damn addictive.

DigitalLisa said:

I don't think that's funny, and I don't see anything strange about this. But that's just me.

To deny the existence of Black music is to deny the existence of African Americans.

Do you have to be Black to enjoy this music?

No


Do you have to be Black to fully understand the music?

More than likely yes, depending on your cultural context. Most non-blacks that listen to Black music only see African Americans as Jayzs, michael Jordans, etc. Do I get it, sure from deep study.

savoirfaire said:

no man, i meant whatever you post within subjects such as these has NO plausibility because of your outright LIE of being black. anything you post within a thread about cultural or racial subjects will always be tainted because of you trying to pose as a black person. why do i need to spell that out for you? now that you have been caught in a lie you continue to try and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk your way out of it. it's your lie, nobody elses but since many people try and throw responsibility on to others for things they've done i'm not really surprised at your continuing actions now. each and every post after your lie have been all out defensive nonsense and you continue to make yourself look bad by doing so.

savoirfaire said:

I hope this is your last time, Damn!!! What's that song "Talkin Loud and Sayin Nothin" Well there you go.

I'm taking this section from your long-winded speech, so as not to waste space:

savoirfaire said:

Check back a few posts and you'll find a reponse from you to what I'd written an answer to the question at hand. Quote from you: "Seriously, where the fuck do you get off restricting musicians who aren't black to not play what they want?"

That's understanding and patient all right. I've already responded to that statement a couple of posts back, but I just needed to stress that that doesn't seem a very calm reponse to me.

Wait! Are you really Vanilla Ice in disguise? Because you sure seem bitter about something having to do with white musicians not being taken seriously for trying to play black music.
And here's MY overuse of that emoticon: