While watching the MTV special about 50 Cent, I couldn't help but think back to the first time I saw Kurtis Blow interviewed and where hip-hop has gone since. I had an one of those old VCRs at the time, you know the ones, the old school VCRs as big as a Toyota lol. I hurried to pop in a tape. I mean, rappers didn't get on mainstream TV in the late 70's. This was an event! Although not in the best of condition, I still have this interview (3-4 minutes long) on tape along with some of the old "New York Hot Tracks". I dug it out to help confirm what I was thinking while watching all these fools damn near worshiping 50 Cent.

Kurtis had just released the first full-length rap album which included "The Breaks". In this interview he attempted to explain what hip-hop was to this 40 something white reporter. He said, and I paraphrase, "Rap music is an escape from the reality of ghetto. Instead of people fightin' and shootin' they can let that energy out in a positive way by shakin' their thing. Rap is a party. The discos aren't for us. They ain't lettin' dudes from the Bronx up in there. So we threw our own parties. Created our own stars. Our own 54's. People can relate to an MC because he looks like they do. He's from their block or apartment building. MCs battle with their words and not their hands so it shows the kids there is another way to deal with a rival".

While listening to this, what stood out most is how far hip-hop now is from its roots, What started as an outlet from street life has now become symbol for street life. Of course rap was going to grow out of just being party music, but doesn't it strike you as both ironic and sad that it became what it was created to help escape?

Remember the end of the song "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and The Furious 5. At the end of the song, you hear sounds of Flash and the rest of them hangin' out on the street corner just chillin'. The police roll up and tell everyone to get up against the wall. You here a voice saying "Hey we're Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5" The cop replies "What is that a gang? Up against the wall" or something to that effect. Despite their insistence they are a "rap group" and not a gang, they are treated like criminals and arrested. Again what does this tell you? The mindset of early hip-hop was that of escaping the stereotype of urban black males. Flash and crew didn't want to be seen as mere street thugs but as artists who had a "message" They dressed from the streets, they spoke from the streets and in some cases even rapped about the streets. The difference was they talked of the tragedy of the inner city and drugs and how being consumed by this life was a dead end. The focus of "The Message" is on how young black man in the ghetto sees no way out of the hell that is his life. The ghetto isn't being embraced here, more than it's playing the part of the villain in the song. He wants to escape the ghetto and leave that life behind but he can't do to his like of a good paying job and racism. That's what makes this song so powerful. It spoke to millions caught in the same trap and painted a picture of this pain for millions of other who had no idea what life in the ghetto was like. In some ways, “The Message” was a blues record. Just as with the blues, Mellie Mel’s lyrics and delivery took you into a world of pain and struggle but also helped ease this same pain by shouting it for everyone to hear.

“The Message” was the predecessor to the political/socially conscious hip-hop of the late 80’s. During this period, groups like Public Enemy, while portraying a more aggressive image than that of late 70’s- early 80’s rappers, still had a focus. The focus was to break down the symbolic walls that sentenced so many urban youth to a dead end life in the ghetto. While you didn’t have to agree with the rout in which they might take to achieve it, you couldn’t denying that they really wanted to make a positive impact on the young people listening to their music.

This all changed with NWA. NWA, while undoubtedly raw, uncut and very funky, offered a different take on ghetto life, or “the streets”. The attitude here contained the same rage Chuck D, KRS-1, and others rapped with, but without the same focus or intellect. It was a “Fuck it, we can’t change it” attitude. Their name really said it all. NWA alone wasn’t the problem since the rest of the hip-hop world at this time was still true to its origin. The problem was the chain of events they inadvertently set off. If you remember correctly Run-DMC and Public Enemy had a huge white fan base. They took to these groups as a way to rebel as many young people do, both white and black. But what better way to be contrary to your parents. If you’re a white kids in middle America, than to listen to 3 black guys in leather from Hollis Queens or a group of revolutionist that are supporters of The Nation of Islam. Well, NWA upped the anti and white record executives took notice. Once they saw “Gangsta Rap” could sell millions records to both black and white kids, they did what they are always do. Imitate it on a mass scale. That’s when the roof caved in on hip-hop. All of the sudden if you rapped and did party music, you were “soft” or weren’t “keeping it real” The real question is, what reality were they refer to? Why wasn’t Hammer, Young MC, or Heavy D “real” anymore? What changed?

What had changed was the image hip-hop was now selling. No longer was hip hop sold and packaged by black people themselves but rather white record executives looking to make a huge profit by selling an image of what “real” black males were. And what image was that? The image of black urban males being drug dealers, killers, pimps and pushers. The same Image Kurtis Blow, Mellie Mel and the other founding fathers of hip-hop wanted to change. They sold and image and you all bought it. All the hype and excitement over people like 50 Cent just shows that racism is now on automatic pilot and it’s fueled by a substance called rap. Hip-hop may not be totally dead but it’s damn sure on life support.

I agree with a lot of what you said. However, I think it's too late to change anything at this point. The few people that share this perspective just don't outnumber the ones who continue to support the current trends.
[This message was edited Thu Feb 20 15:45:09 PST 2003 by chickengrease]

Some of your statement makes sense. But how do you make the reference that a rapper was soft if they did party music,when every rap artist makes club songs to sell records today?

classic77 said:

That's just it. What you call party music is still sold in the "street" package. When Ja Rule, with a company named Murda Inc, is pop you know we have gone over the edge.

Racism, and it's being taken over, and sadly, it will change, as it has, what it was meant for...think of something new?
[This message was edited Thu Feb 20 16:36:06 PST 2003 by Starmist7]

It seems that NWA along with Ice-T,Schoolly D, and KRS 1 opened a so called pandoras' box with rap music. With a viewpoint that caught so much attention because it had not been heard before it was forever changed. Part of the biggest problem from what I see is when the real life dealers and criminals got into he music as a legitimate hustle. Ex dealers who weren't really in love with the culture saw it as a way to make money legally. Thus the criminal undercurrent that is so prevalant now. My main concern is not ex dealers who want to get away from that lifestyle through music, it's the fact that there is no balance in the mainstream. There should be plenty of exposure for the likes of 50 Cent as well as Talib Kweli.

classic77 said:

KRS-1 and Ice T still came from a prospective where they encourage people to read and think about issues. 2pac is someone that doesn't fit in either class to me. While he was sure enough fit the street mode, there was something sad about him and his life. You always got the feeling listening to him, that he knew his life was headed for disaster. And love or hate him, there was some depth to that brother. I don't see much depth in most of these cats today like Lil Wayne and 50 Cent.

I was watching Krush Groove the other day, lol, the part where the Fat Boys are performing on the stairs @ school. It reminded me that rap used to be lots of things - intelligent, hardcore, serious, empowering, silly, FUN. Your FLOW was so much more important than your image - if you could move the crowd, you were cool. But there's no diversity anymore. I know times change but DAMN, everything has to be so "I'll shoot yo ass if you look @ me wrong" these days. There's a few exceptions here & there but we'll never see such diversity again in the genre - fat boys rappin' about food, dudes in sweatsuits & hats rappin' about sneakers, a smooth brotha (w/ a bangin' curl, lol) rappin' about ruling the world, a scrappy kid rappin' about how much he loves his radio... Kinda sad

Rap got Safe when Black Folks didn't keep it on Lock.The Music got Sold out to the Man&never has been the same.Rap is Promoted as Dangerous as long as White Hands didn't have a say but once Some House Negores Sold it out it all became Fair Game for all to Cash in on.gotta hold on to it.Rap has gotten more White-Washed than anything IMHO.When Biting&Jacking became acceptable than you see what happens?? A Cat like Eminem doesn't Blow up like that if a People Protect there own? Eminem would be floating down the River like 2Pac&Biggie I Bet you??

Protect their own?

All things change and evolve. I believe that there are artist who still have something to say and others that want the money. No different than any other music genre.

Eminem is a part of Hip Hop culture and I don't think because he blows up that he should get dogged for being a white boy. He can rap. If you said Vanilla Ice, that's completely different.

This has been one of the few music genre that is completely listened to by both races so with that there is a lot of money to be had in the business so there will those who pimp the game.

The intial shift from party anthems to "tell it as it is" reality was inevitable and welcome but your right that this said realism became a successful packaged parody and the formula has continued to be sold and mass-marketed as such.

Unfortunately, I agree with much of what you said. Hip-Hop has been corrupted by rank materialism, misogyny, and an overall celebration of ignorance. But for Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Common and The Roots, it would be dead. It's become in many ways a sick minstrel show, and it breaks my heart to say that.

"minstrel show" is the perfect choice of words. And they banned Amos and Andy from TV. What about Rap City?

namepeace said:

I couldn't have put it better myself.

WildheartXXX said:

Thanks.

check this out. This is what "WE" need to study:

from the latest issue of rollingstone, available online at http://www.rollingstone.c...?nid=17633
Ten Ways to Save Hip-Hop

Common dispenses some knowledge



Common was fretting about the state of hip-hop way back in 1994, on his first hit, "I Used to Love H.E.R.," a song that compared hip-hop to a girl who ran off with some gangsta guy. Five albums in, Common is on better terms than ever with the music. He describes his reconciliation with hip-hop on "Love of My Life (An Ode to Hip Hop)," his hit ballad with his main squeeze, Erykah Badu, which updates "I Used to Love H.E.R.": "We broke up and got back together/To get her back I had to sweat her." And he's made the most adventurous album of his career: The new Electric Circus (produced in part by Roots drummer ?uestlove) is a free-for-all that recalls the ambition of late-Eighties classics from the Jungle Brothers.
That doesn't mean he doesn't have a few pointers for his colleagues, though. "I really don't want to be preachy," he says over five cups of tea at a Lower Manhattan Thai-food place. But his vision is distinctly more bohemian and less bling.

1 Free Your Mind, and Their Asses Will Follow
"I worry when people are able to imitate hip-hop so well on Saturday Night Live skits -- it means we have set this culture up to be just one thing. I think the big problem comes from us trying to please the crowd. We limit hip-hop to just one look, one uniform, one statement of being real: getting money and guns and women, or selling dope all the time.

"But you try to please the crowd, and the crowd might change. They may say, 'We're tired of that gangsta stuff.' Or a new cat will come in, doing the same thing as you. But because his face is new, he'll get accepted. As Ice Cube said, 'They'll have a new nigga next year.'

"Rock artists are allowed to just be themselves -- to be the nerds or punk rockers or skateboarders or acid takers that they are. Stevie Wonder or Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan or Bob Marley -- they did songs about all type of different things. You can't make yourself secure by just trying to please whatever is happening now. I believe you please the crowd by being you."

2 Don't Let Your Homeys on Your Albums
"In hip-hop, we let our homeys rap on our records all the time, and sometimes that's not what they were meant to do, bro. I believe in providing opportunities for our brothers and sisters, but my record is my child: You gotta be bringing something special to a song to be on it. This is my art -- if you ain't got league game, I don't think you should be playing in the league. There are other ways your people can make it in the music business."

3 Check Out the Hood in Cuba
"I was talking to some of the guys from Linkin Park, and they were telling me that they toured for two years straight. Only one band does that in hip-hop: the Roots.

"Hip-hop artists need to tour more -- both to build a real fan base and just to see different cultures, and know that this is a world hood. Southern cats need to experience New York and Paris or Cuba; East Coast artists need to experience Chicago and the Midwest, go down to Jamaica or Italy."

4 Hot Producers Can Burn You
"We get coerced by our record labels to use the producers of the moment -- the 'in thing' they think can get us to the promised land. Ask yourself: Are you making music just to have a producer's name on your song, or are you trying to make something good? Put it this way: I think the Neptunes are some of the greatest musicians around, but what's gonna make the consumer differentiate you from the other twelve artists that they produced?"

5 Don't Think Rhyming About Bitches and Ho's Doesn't Influence Five-Year-Olds
"Words are power. Don't think you can rap about money and bitches and ho's and shooting somebody and then make it better by giving ten dollars to somebody in the community. Your words are probably destroying more people than the ten dollars is helping. Your words are affecting the five-year-old riding in the back of their daddy's car; your words are affecting how the world sees you. I listen to the Roots and Mos Def, and I also listen to Dr. Dre and the Clipse -- we just need to have balance in the music."

6 Look for the Union Label
"Many artists don't have health, life insurance and dental and medical benefits -- and they don't have the legal advisers that truly have the artists' interests at heart. I'd love to see a support system in hip-hop -- actors have a union, NBA players have one, so why not MCs? I would set up medical and dental and life insurance for artists -- maybe even a pension plan for old-school cats."

7 Put Your Money in the Bank, Not on Your Records
"You really need to know what's going on with your money; sit down and go over what's going on with your accountant. At the same time, the music in hip-hop sometimes seems like an afterthought, because the dream is just to get money. You gotta create the art and let the finance come as a result of it."

8 Know Your History
"A lot of shorties got into hip-hop in the Biggie-Tupac era, or even later. We can't live back in the Eighties, and I don't wanna try to re-create it, but to really know it, you need to know its history, from the Sugarhill Gang to Grandmaster Flash to KRS-One on up."

9 Keep an Eye on Your Record Company
"My album's out, and I still ain't got all of my advance check. Hip-hop artists get less long-term development than rock artists -- hip-hop albums are looked at as a product that should get a quick return, and if it ain't catching on, they don't work it like they do the rock artists. It's hard, because rock artists have more of an outlet: MTV reaches more people than BET."

10 Make Your Music Look Like Your Life
"For one, we all didn't grow up in the ghetto. And even if you did, there's more to ghetto life than just violence and sex and getting money -- there's a lot of beauty in the community aspect of it. That needs to be reflected in the music. Most people I know from the ghetto don't want to glorify ghetto life -- ain't nobody happy to have to sell dope, and most people don't wanna talk about killing people and violence. As my father used to say, 'Even gangster dudes go to church.' "

chickengrease said:

11 Sell your soul to work for Coca Cola a Global giant exploiting workers in "the third world".

12 Work for P Diddy in Sean John clothing adverts.

Right, Common aint about shit.
His kufi must be getting to tight again.

Essence said:

Essence said:

It's a soda company. Surely, there are bigger fish to fry. Unless you are walking around ass naked somebody who manufactures the clothes on your back is doing the same shit.




Image is nothing. Thirst is everything.



I could give a fuck about what he wears and who he endorses. The man makes solid music. His personal life has no bearing on my ears.
[This message was edited Thu Feb 27 16:08:57 PST 2003 by chickengrease]

chickengrease said:

I'm down with Common, just contradicting any effort to make him some martyr of hip-hop lest he gets overly preachy. We all have our hypocrisies...

Essence said:

Understood. I only posted it because what he said makes sense in regards to music and this thread.

Common is so full of shit.

XLBubba said:

Please, playa. Common is one of hip-hop's greatest MC's. I could give a funk about the Coca-Cola commercials and the Sean John gig. If you don't believe that, check out "Communism," "Soul By The Pound (remix)," "Hungry" and "Thelonious." If you don't love, or at least respect, Common, I got doubts about your love for hip-hop.

XLBubba said:

How So? Bro Man Probably got a Wack Record Deal&There is nothing wrong with Feeding Yourself&Your Family.Touring&Making any kind of Hustle is Fair Game because the Industry ain't gonna try to take Care of Him when He is in 50's&Up.I Say Common get your Hustle On Playa because the Industry is gonna Hustle You non-stop.

First let me say I don't dig Common's music AT ALL! That said, what does him doing Coke ads have to do with what he said about HIP HOP? The whole "Sell Out" term is something that always bugged me. To me a "Sell Out" is someone that is selling out his people or community not doing commercials, TV or movies. Doing commercials to put money in your pocket is hardly selling out. After all, we all have to make a living. Essense, you make it sound lke he's selling crack to 8 year olds or somethin'.

mistermaxxx said:

Sorry Maxx didn't see you said basically the same thing I just posted. Guess I should read ALL posts before I rush to mine lol

XLBubba said:

Check the interview again. The brother said he still hasn't gotten all of his advance! Those moves were smart ways to stay in the public and get paid.

In the sports world, endorsements (with the exception of Anna K.) usually go to the best athletes. I think it fitting that Common should get some opportunities to branch out and make more money -- particularly in an entertainment industry that normally would ignore such an artist.

And, in response to the thread's original point, I have to disagree.

Black people created something so large, in hip hop, that it grew beyond its original incarnation. Like Common said, it's evolved.

Sadly, the more-publicized demographics of the hip-hop community tend to be of the "gangsta" variety. Even sadder, that's not a new phenomenon. Look at the leagues of black actors and actresses who for decades had to make do with roles as domestics, pimps, hookers and petty criminals. Even now, we're witness to the paradox of a so-so actor such as George Clooney getting his big break on ER and moving to film success, while a talented film actor such as Don Cheadle is stuck with a stint on ER and those annoying NFL commercials.

But, hip hop is worldwide in scope. They're rapping in Asia and in European countries. And, while it's now international, the worldwide love affair with hip hop's catchiness and resonance with everyday people is a celebration of something so originally and undeniably black.

"Sadly, the more-publicized demographics of the hip-hop community tend to be of the "gangsta" variety. Even sadder, that's not a new phenomenon. Look at the leagues of black actors and actresses who for decades had to make do with roles as domestics, pimps, hookers and petty criminals. "

You said you disagree but you just made my point exactly! Hip Hop USED to be controled by the people that created it and it didn't look like what you just mentioned above. Once it became a tool used to make money by others look what happened. One thing you have to keep in mind, is all those old actors (like Mantan Mooreland) you mentioned had no other roles availabe to them. These dudes today are playng the "Gangsta" role by choice. And you are right, hip hop is more than "Gangsta" So all these cats that play that role to sell records are taking the easy road and are in turn the real "sell outs" of hip hop and the black community. Just watch and listen to the Public Enemy video for "Give it Up" That shit is 10 years old and touches on all of this very well. Give Chuck props he saw this coming. And like I said, even though you said you disagree I think you helped make the point I was trying to get across when I started this thread. So with that I'll rest my case
[This message was edited Fri Feb 28 9:45:47 PST 2003 by intha916]

intha916 said:

"More-publicized demographics" don't necessarily make up the entire community. My point was that a portion of hip hop is being misappropriated by the music industry. But, that's not hip hop in its totality (as you know). Dude, I used to play for a hip-hop group whose lyrics and vibe were nothing like the gangsta variety.

I'm just saying hip-hop went pop, just like what has happened with country and just like what has happened with latino music. There are larger genres than what is perpetuated as the "mainstream" incarnations of those music styles. It's just that there's a racial, social subtext to what we see with rap music that disturbs and irritates many of us who remember where hip hop began.

(my own )
[This message was edited Fri Feb 28 10:11:45 PST 2003 by ThreadBare]