NaughtyKitty said:

brooksie said:

She stated that both she and Rebbie were molested in her book, but she made it very clear that she was unsure about Janet in that regard. She didn't say a definite no or yes about Janet, but was firm about herself and Rebbie. She pointed out that their sleeping arrangements enable the sitch.

She did state that Joe physically abused Katherine. I think people had suspected this for a long time, but she basically confirmed the preception of him as overall tyrant.

Did she mention the molestation in her book or did she mention it only on the talk shows? I cant recall, but I remember reading somewhere that Latoya didnt mention any molestation in the book, only physical abuse, and later talked about the molestation when she did interviews on talk shows

[Edited 3/9/12 10:42am]

This is true

@NaughtyKitty, nah she didn't deny it. Seems like she just didn't wanna answer.

[Edited 3/9/12 11:40am]

Timmy84 said:

@NaughtyKitty, nah she didn't deny it. Seems like she just didn't wanna answer.

[Edited 3/9/12 11:40am]

Yeah she clearly didnt want to answer Matt's questions about it lol. But her non-answer was an answer actually

why are some of you saying there is no way whitney would have messed with jermaine? this was the beginnning of her career, he was her producer, he was a jackson, she was very young, it would have been easy for her to get caught up. i didnt know this was some kinda secret, i mean its been around for years. i dont think whitney being with bobby was about her needing a 'bad boy', i think it was more her needing somebody who indulged in the same activities as her. there is a interview out there with whitney talking about how she once got caught up in a love affair with a married man and how she wouldnt reccomend it to anybody.

lowkey said:

why are some of you saying there is no way whitney would have messed with jermaine? this was the beginnning of her career, he was her producer, he was a jackson, she was very young, it would have been easy for her to get caught up. i didnt know this was some kinda secret, i mean its been around for years. i dont think whitney being with bobby was about her needing a 'bad boy', i think it was more her needing somebody who indulged in the same activities as her. there is a interview out there with whitney talking about how she once got caught up in a love affair with a married man and how she wouldnt reccomend it to anybody.

THIS!

purple05 said:

brooksie said:

She stated that both she and Rebbie were molested in her book, but she made it very clear that she was unsure about Janet in that regard. She didn't say a definite no or yes about Janet, but was firm about herself and Rebbie. She pointed out that their sleeping arrangements enable the sitch.

She did state that Joe physically abused Katherine. I think people had suspected this for a long time, but she basically confirmed the preception of him as overall tyrant.

No Toya didnt state that in her book. She stated that in interviews promoting the book. In the book there was no talk of sexual abuse on anybodys part

OK...I'll take your word for it because my copy is in storage! That said, she always made clear that she was unsure about Janet.

NaughtyKitty said:

brooksie said:

Nah, she was invited on the shows because the book was so controversial. She told far more detail and new horror stories on the talk shows, but I'm almost certain the original sexual abuse claims were in the book. I must re-read it.

Yeah Imma have to pull that book out an re-read it this weekend lol! I remember sometime last year Latoya was on the Today show being interviewed by Matt Lauer about her new book she wrote on her brother. He started grilling her about her past statements on Joe molesting her...here's part of that transcript:

M: You have also made comments about your father joe molesting you and other forms of child abuse . now you say no other man alive or dead did anything like joseph did for his family and i thank him for that.

L: I do.

M: Is this a contradiction?

L: No, it is not. my father did a wonderful job of raising all of us. i have to tell you that when you're young, you see things differently than when you get older. when you get older and you have children and your nieces and nephews, you understand why your father disciplined you the way he did. parents beat their children back then. they don't do that today. if you do it today, you're going to jail.

M: But you stand by the comments you made about molestation and child abuse ?

L: My father is a very wonderful man, matt. i have to tell you something. my father is getting older. i love him with all my heart. michael loved my father at the end of the day . people are showing footage of michael speaking at my father the way he thought many years ago. at the end of michael 's life he called my father several times, wanted him there. he even told his children, call grandpa, he will help me get out of this situation.

M: You're standing by your original statements about your dad?

L: My father is a wonderful person and always will be. he has a great heart and, yes, i do love him and care for him a great deal.

M: La toya jackson , appreciate it.

http://today.msnbc.msn.co...1pTY4FunY0

Didnt really answer Matt's questions...

Interesting. She doesn't retract her original assertions in this piece, but she overall states that she now understands Joe's PoV. Well, I guess life IS complicated like this. Both things can be true at the samw time, after all.

In fairness, it must be mentioned that La Toya wasn't "young" when she made her original claims (she was over 35 when he left home) but she's right that time and changed circumstances can make things a bit more nuanced.

Whatever Joe's faults are, he DID pull his kids out of a life of certain poverty. That can't be denied.

lowkey said:

why are some of you saying there is no way whitney would have messed with jermaine? this was the beginnning of her career, he was her producer, he was a jackson, she was very young, it would have been easy for her to get caught up. i didnt know this was some kinda secret, i mean its been around for years. i dont think whitney being with bobby was about her needing a 'bad boy', i think it was more her needing somebody who indulged in the same activities as her. there is a interview out there with whitney talking about how she once got caught up in a love affair with a married man and how she wouldnt reccomend it to anybody.

Oh yeah, everythng you say has merit. Given the power dynamics of the sitch w/ Jermaine, an affair is certainly not very hard to imagine. That said, it doesn't mean that it actually happened, but the probablity is rather high.

When it comes to the whole drug thing and Bobby....when they met, how deeply was he involved w/ it? I assume he did the occassional toot here and puff there, but there's no way Bobby was deeply addicted when they met, IMHO. I think she was more advanced in this area tbh, but that together they pulled each other in deeper. They too had a power dynamics issue...she was much older and much more successful. Methinks she had more power here than he did.

Whitney was probably snorting coke as early as 16. She was a little wipper snapper. Cissy said one time she wasn't sure is Whitney was gonna make it to 14 because she was gonna kill her lol.

She also says COnrad Murray was a member of the illuminati

brooksie said:

lowkey said:

why are some of you saying there is no way whitney would have messed with jermaine? this was the beginnning of her career, he was her producer, he was a jackson, she was very young, it would have been easy for her to get caught up. i didnt know this was some kinda secret, i mean its been around for years. i dont think whitney being with bobby was about her needing a 'bad boy', i think it was more her needing somebody who indulged in the same activities as her. there is a interview out there with whitney talking about how she once got caught up in a love affair with a married man and how she wouldnt reccomend it to anybody.

Oh yeah, everythng you say has merit. Given the power dynamics of the sitch w/ Jermaine, an affair is certainly not very hard to imagine. That said, it doesn't mean that it actually happened, but the probablity is rather high.

When it comes to the whole drug thing and Bobby....when they met, how deeply was he involved w/ it? I assume he did the occassional toot here and puff there, but there's no way Bobby was deeply addicted when they met, IMHO. I think she was more advanced in this area tbh, but that together they pulled each other in deeper. They too had a power dynamics issue...she was much older and much more successful. Methinks she had more power here than he did.

bobby was kicked out of new edition because of drug use, they were both already doing drugs by the tiime they met and hooked up.their destructive lifestyle is probably what brought them together and kept them together that long. i cant confirm jermaine and whitney had an affair but since the both of them have eluded to it and his ex wrote about in her book 20 years ago i would say it most likely happened.

lowkey said:

brooksie said:

Oh yeah, everythng you say has merit. Given the power dynamics of the sitch w/ Jermaine, an affair is certainly not very hard to imagine. That said, it doesn't mean that it actually happened, but the probablity is rather high.

When it comes to the whole drug thing and Bobby....when they met, how deeply was he involved w/ it? I assume he did the occassional toot here and puff there, but there's no way Bobby was deeply addicted when they met, IMHO. I think she was more advanced in this area tbh, but that together they pulled each other in deeper. They too had a power dynamics issue...she was much older and much more successful. Methinks she had more power here than he did.

bobby was kicked out of new edition because of drug use, they were both already doing drugs by the tiime they met and hooked up.their destructive lifestyle is probably what brought them together and kept them together that long. i cant confirm jermaine and whitney had an affair but since the both of them have eluded to it and his ex wrote about in her book 20 years ago i would say it most likely happened.

Nah, it was more complicated than that. Bobby's antics on stage started causing NE real problems w/ the fuzz. As was posted upthread , he was rather raunchy onstage and at one point the cops were stopping shows (I think he even got arrested once) on indecency charges. (Too Live Crew were also targets later on....so this was something of a theme in the 80s)

IIRC, their last show as the original group was at the Cincinnati Gardens sometime in about 1986. I live in Cincy and I know that the hardass Sheriff Sy Leis had his eye on them and a few other acts w/ wild stage shows. This being the case, even if Bobby had been using at the time, the problems w/ local law on their tours would have been a better motive to kick him out.

I'm going by memory here, but I'm almost certain that his attention grabbing antics were the real reason he was booted out.

As for their relationship, I think that too is far more complex. I think they actually loved each other for most of that time and they had a kid together too.....drugs was certainly apart of the equation, but that was something that grew over time. Many people were casually using then (and now), but I don't theyse two started out as a junkie scene, if that's what you mean. They got together for most of the same reasons people normally do....they were very sexually attracted to each other.

[Edited 3/9/12 20:58pm]

Questions for y'all: Given that La Toya was not (contrary to urban legend) the world's worst singer, why do you think she couldn't have a more successful mainstream career like her siblings? Was it laziness...entitlement, what?

These days siblings of big stars frequently manage to become famous as well, so could it be that the drastic changes in media are the issue vs La Toya of the late '70s-early '80s? Think the La Toya back then would have been a big star if things were diff wrt the media?

brooksie said:

Questions for y'all: Given that La Toya was not (contrary to urban legend) the world's worst singer, why do you think she couldn't have a more successful mainstream career like her siblings? Was it laziness...entitlement, what?

These days siblings of big stars frequently manage to become famous as well, so could it be that the drastic changes in media are the issue vs La Toya of the late '70s-early '80s? Think the La Toya back then would have been a big star if things were diff wrt the media?

Joe Jackson

lowkey said:

why are some of you saying there is no way whitney would have messed with jermaine? this was the beginnning of her career, he was her producer, he was a jackson, she was very young, it would have been easy for her to get caught up. i didnt know this was some kinda secret, i mean its been around for years. i dont think whitney being with bobby was about her needing a 'bad boy', i think it was more her needing somebody who indulged in the same activities as her. there is a interview out there with whitney talking about how she once got caught up in a love affair with a married man and how she wouldnt reccomend it to anybody.

I agree. Jermaine was very attractive back then. Im also sure Jermaine has some kind of game because he sure does pull alot of women. Im also startin to belive that his d*ck musty be made of gold because these women just cannot resist. lol... Im mean damn I heard he was even f*cking Grace (MJs Nanny).

If you believe the unauthorized Jackson bios, Jermaine liked to brag about his dick...

brooksie said:

purple05 said:

No Toya didnt state that in her book. She stated that in interviews promoting the book. In the book there was no talk of sexual abuse on anybodys part

OK...I'll take your word for it because my copy is in storage! That said, she always made clear that she was unsure about Janet.

thats true... i remember that lol

Timmy84 said:

brooksie said:

Questions for y'all: Given that La Toya was not (contrary to urban legend) the world's worst singer, why do you think she couldn't have a more successful mainstream career like her siblings? Was it laziness...entitlement, what?

These days siblings of big stars frequently manage to become famous as well, so could it be that the drastic changes in media are the issue vs La Toya of the late '70s-early '80s? Think the La Toya back then would have been a big star if things were diff wrt the media?

Joe Jackson

Yea, if she could have broke away from him long enough and had some independence she would have made out better. Overall she has done pretty well for herself though. We have to remeber that LaToya was Kim Kardashian/ Paris Hilton while they were still in pampers lol

purple05 said:

Timmy84 said:

Joe Jackson

Yea, if she could have broke away from him long enough and had some independence she would have made out better. Overall she has done pretty well for herself though. We have to remeber that LaToya was Kim Kardashian/ Paris Hilton while they were still in pampers lol

Yeah she was the blueprint for that shit.

purple05 said:

Timmy84 said:

Joe Jackson

Yea, if she could have broke away from him long enough and had some independence she would have made out better. Overall she has done pretty well for herself though. We have to remeber that LaToya was Kim Kardashian/ Paris Hilton while they were still in pampers lol

Y'all think it was Joe, eh? He really tried hard to push her "brand' tho. My theory at the time and still today is that back then it was like she was one Jackson too many! All of them were working then (Reebie off and on), so many La Toya was just the straw that broke the public camel's back!

Yeah, her post '87 period DID set the template for the hot messes that came later. (Don't forget the Spears, Simpson, Carter, etc..disasters) I guess that's another thing we can blame her for!

brooksie said:

Questions for y'all: Given that La Toya was not (contrary to urban legend) the world's worst singer, why do you think she couldn't have a more successful mainstream career like her siblings? Was it laziness...entitlement, what?

These days siblings of big stars frequently manage to become famous as well, so could it be that the drastic changes in media are the issue vs La Toya of the late '70s-early '80s? Think the La Toya back then would have been a big star if things were diff wrt the media?

LaToya's only good song is "Nighttime Lover" which Michael wrote and produced for her.Perhaps she should have asked him to produce an entire album for her?

brooksie said:

lowkey said:

bobby was kicked out of new edition because of drug use, they were both already doing drugs by the tiime they met and hooked up.their destructive lifestyle is probably what brought them together and kept them together that long. i cant confirm jermaine and whitney had an affair but since the both of them have eluded to it and his ex wrote about in her book 20 years ago i would say it most likely happened.

Nah, it was more complicated than that. Bobby's antics on stage started causing NE real problems w/ the fuzz. As was posted upthread , he was rather raunchy onstage and at one point the cops were stopping shows (I think he even got arrested once) on indecency charges. (Too Live Crew were also targets later on....so this was something of a theme in the 80s)

IIRC, their last show as the original group was at the Cincinnati Gardens sometime in about 1986. I live in Cincy and I know that the hardass Sheriff Sy Leis had his eye on them and a few other acts w/ wild stage shows. This being the case, even if Bobby had been using at the time, the problems w/ local law on their tours would have been a better motive to kick him out.

I'm going by memory here, but I'm almost certain that his attention grabbing antics were the real reason he was booted out.

As for their relationship, I think that too is far more complex. I think they actually loved each other for most of that time and they had a kid together too.....drugs was certainly apart of the equation, but that was something that grew over time. Many people were casually using then (and now), but I don't theyse two started out as a junkie scene, if that's what you mean. They got together for most of the same reasons people normally do....they were very sexually attracted to each other.

[Edited 3/9/12 20:58pm]

all that raunchy stuff came during his solo career, bobby was getting high, missing shows and causing problems because of his drug use and he was eventually voted out of the group. he got arrested during his dont be cruel tour with the sexual stuff.

said:

prodigalfan said:

Right! I remember reading a gossip item that eluded that a young child Rb star was being kicked out if the group because of drug use and missing dates etc. The item went on to talk about the whole situation was sad because the kids in the group were supposed to have chaperones with them to ensure at nothing happened to them and it was those very people who were adults that got this kid into the while scene. And that the parents had Ben given assurance of the kids safety and they were mislead. It was obviously Bobby brown. He had recently been kicked out of NE. And the gossip was there were some shows in the Carolina (I think it was the carolinas that Bobby wasn't there.) Not good since Bobby lead most of their songs. Candy girl and Mr. telephone man were 2 songs that come to mind. After that tour Bobby was voted out by his friends ( members of the group). majority won. Important fact because it was a split vote. And the tea spilt was that Ralph was instrumental in getting the votes needed. The manager Starr was the one who laid it out that either Bobby leaves the group or he was finished with them and without him they would not make it. Some of the group wanted to stick with their childhood friend and take their chances but some were like "fuck that, Bobby is out!"

I had no idea there were blind items about this back then. Bobby did seem to get on a star trip for a minute there. Anyway, it's interesting to find this out so many years after the fact.

I thought Maurice Starr left New Edition in 1983. Him being the man to say "kick Bobby out" don't make sense. That was whoever was managing NE in 1985 telling them to kick Bobby out. Bobby and 'em were doing weed and coke together. Bobby's problem was probably more severe especially with alcohol. And the fact that he caused havoc whenever NE had to do a gig or promo. Bobby was a hassle but the label didn't want Bobby to ruin their image. Michael, Ronnie, Ricky and Ralph weren't going to easily tell someone who founded the group, someone who had been friends with them since he was nine, ten years old to his face that "yo we have to kick you out mane". Nah they weren't going to do that.

The REAL story is Bobby wanted to be the lead singer & always resented Ralph for it. He also felt NE was too bubble gum & wanted a more harder image. I felt it odd that they ended up giving him his own contract to go solo. He got his wish. He became bigger & more successful than NE. I wonder how that made them feel? Then he ended up marrying the biggest voice in the industry....But look what price he had to pay for fame & fortune.....

[Edited 3/10/12 19:36pm]

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

Timmy84 said:

I thought Maurice Starr left New Edition in 1983. Him being the man to say "kick Bobby out" don't make sense. That was whoever was managing NE in 1985 telling them to kick Bobby out. Bobby and 'em were doing weed and coke together. Bobby's problem was probably more severe especially with alcohol. And the fact that he caused havoc whenever NE had to do a gig or promo. Bobby was a hassle but the label didn't want Bobby to ruin their image. Michael, Ronnie, Ricky and Ralph weren't going to easily tell someone who founded the group, someone who had been friends with them since he was nine, ten years old to his face that "yo we have to kick you out mane". Nah they weren't going to do that.

I assumed it was Starr since I learned that he was the one who also started NKOTB. But the whole voting Bobby out and a split vote. Yeah that was definitely the rumor. And for some reason in my mind I had the feeling that mike and definitely Ronnie was for Bobby. I may have gotten ricky mixed up with mike but Ronnie was definitely in bobby's corner and Ralph was not. (I remembered about Ronnie because my sister was in love with him. My friends and I discussed it was probably jealousy with Ralph and with Bobby out of the way Ralph would be the obvious leader of the group. I remembered hearing that Bobby when he performed he was the crowd favorite and there some competition between him and Ralph.

Starr was sued by them in 1984 for not paying them their money. Michael and Ronnie were the ones really split over kicking Bobby out. Ricky was said to be neutral. Ralph did have a problem with him because Bobby wanted to cut in and get more lead spots that the label wasn't allowing. Bobby was immensely jealous of Ralph, but then again so was Ricky since all three guys were mainly singing parts (it wasn't just Ralph; Bobby and Ricky were heard from "Candy Love" onwards and Ricky more than anything was like Jermaine to Ralph's Michael, I guess Bobby was their Jackie or whatever but Bobby had a more deeper voice ). Bobby more than anything wanted to be THE STAR. I don't think he was made to feel anything until he saw that Ralph was "getting all the love" and he felt that he had been in this group for a long time and hadn't been able to show people what HE was capable of and this is when the problems started. But on the first album, lead vocals were actually split between Bobby, Ricky and Ralph and Bobby is the one mainly singing "Jealous Girl". Bobby was indeed the crowd favorite because he did everything he could to please his crowd. I know NE wasn't totally feeling it and thier management SURE AS HELL wasn't feeling it. They wanted NE to be nice, polite black boys who sing and dance with a smile but Bobby Brown didn't follow the damn script. In his mind, he was young, rich, black and famous and he was gonna do what he wanted to do and this is what got him kicked out. Least that's my theory. It had less to do with drug/alcohol problems.

EDIT: Scratch "rich" off because technically NE was still living in the STREETS of Roxbury when Madonna was opening for THEM!

Also it's odd how when it started, Bobby, Ricky and Michael were the TIGHT ones and now Bobby is closer to Ralph!

[Edited 3/10/12 19:59pm]

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

The REAL story is Bobby wanted to be the lead singer & always resented Ralph for it. He also felt NE was too bubble gum & wanted a more harder image. I felt it odd that they ended up giving him his own contract to go solo. He got his wish. He became bigger & more successful than NE. I wonder how that made them feel? Then he ended up marrying the biggest voice in the industry....But look what price he had to pay for fame & fortune.....

[Edited 3/10/12 19:36pm]

That sounds right to me. Bobby was very much the most popular member of the group even w/ Ralph as lead, so them just pushing him out over drugs sounds a bit too simplistic. As I said earlier, Bobby was on a star trip too and almost certainly wanted out. His acting out on stage was about him wanting to hog the attention...and it worked.

After they kicked out Bobby, they did that quartet thing for a hot minute and they quickly figured out it wouldn't work (OK, I dig Earth Angel and Count Me Out...sue me ) so they got Johnny Gill. NE sang better overall than Bobby, but they didn't have his full on charisma. Getting rid of Bobby took most of their sparkle away...even tho they were still fly as hale in the New Jack era.

You know, the biggest mystery to me was why Bobby basically became a house hubby after marrying Whitney?! He was like some woman who married the super rich boss. His career was going fine and then one day it just seems he lost interst or something. He was still very popular. I just don't get that one.

[Edited 3/10/12 20:42pm]

brooksie said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

The REAL story is Bobby wanted to be the lead singer & always resented Ralph for it. He also felt NE was too bubble gum & wanted a more harder image. I felt it odd that they ended up giving him his own contract to go solo. He got his wish. He became bigger & more successful than NE. I wonder how that made them feel? Then he ended up marrying the biggest voice in the industry....But look what price he had to pay for fame & fortune.....

[Edited 3/10/12 19:36pm]

That sounds right to me. Bobby was very much the most popular member of the group even w/ Ralph as lead, so them just pushing him out over drugs sounds a bit too simplistic. As I said earlier, Bobby was on a star trip too and almost certainly wanted out. His acting out on stage was about him wanting to hog the attention...and it worked.

After they kicked out Bobby, they did that quartet thing for a hot minute and they quickly figured out it wouldn't work (OK, I dig Earth Angel and Count Me Out...sue me ) so they got Johnny Gill. NE sang better overall than Bobby, but they didn't have his full on charisma. Getting rid of Bobby took most of their sparkle away...even tho they were still fly as hale in the New Jack era.

You know, the biggest mystery to me was why Bobby basically became a house hubby after marrying Whitney?! He was like some woman who married the super rich boss. His career was going fine and then one day it just seems he lost interst or something. He was still very popular. I just don't get that one.

[Edited 3/10/12 20:42pm]

I don't think he had much of a choice! I mean back then Whitney was the biggest singer on the planet. I do feel and I've said it here before, that Bobby resented Whitney for her mega stardom.

U are right when Whitney met Bobby he was at the top of his game. I feel his career suffered big time when he met & married Whitney. People keep saying it was the other way around. But I feel Bobby suffered just as much. I also feel Whitney sabotaged her own career. She lost interest in it. Even before she lost her voice. Its sad to say that since Whitney is no longer here.