^

Nah you were comparing. You feel that I am generalising, which is cool because I mostly am. But you try to tell me so by making an unsound comparison. Tho' you mean it as another generalisation

RKJCNE said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I'm not throwing stones in glass houses, you are assuming I am a major MJ fan when i am a Prince fan... I respect MJ, but all that collaboration wasn't his choice, it was all done after his death...if he was alive he would never have allowed that to go out... I'm sure he'd be mad about them releasing the This Is It rehearsals too...

(On a side note I think this will be why Prince will release the vault in his lifetime, to stop anyone unscrupulous ruining it and profiting from it. My only concern is I don't want him to butcher it himself (the trauma of Extraloveable is still in my mind)...

I don't know about Madonna, i think its fine if you like all her re-inventions but 80s she was sexy and innovative, now she just seems rather staid and too mainstream in comparison....but that's just my 2 cents.

[Edited 12/5/11 8:09am]

But not all of MJ's collaborations were after his death, before his death I heard constant rumors that he was working with Will.I.Am and Neyo.

Yes he was working with them.

And on Thriller (25th anniversary edition) they released new version of ''The Girl Is Mine ft. Will.I.Am'', ''P.Y.T ft. Kanye West'', ''Beat It ft. Fergie '' & ''Wanna Be Startin' Something ft. Akon'' He did a lot with Akon too, and these new versions of this songs were released in 2008.

Unholyalliance said:

mjscarousal said:

Michael didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING TRENDS hun... he INNOVATED TRENDS.. even some Madonna followed HERSELF... Collabing with the artists you mentioned does not = an entire career unlike Madonna.

I'm a little confused you guys.

I thought the whole purpose of being a popular music artist was about chasing trends in some sort of fashion. If you don't, how will your music sell? Things are constantly changing and moving forwards, so if you don't how would one intend to make it in such an industry?

That is unless you are targeting a niche market, then yeah...you can do what you want then, but I still think it has to adhere to the genre no?

Thats not completely true and just because your a pop star doesnt mean you have to be unorginal their are plenty of pop stars that were original and set trends... The Beatles, Michael etc...

I NEVER said Michael didnt follow trends as well I said he didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING trends... he was a PIONEER and had innovated trends... MOST of the trends he started most pop stars now and during his period follow.. he set most of the formula pop trends that still continue today... If he did follow trends it was very little and he still incorporated HIS creativity for example... Dangerous was a new jack swing inspired album like most during that era BUT still incorporated alot of eclectic sounds and material..

What I don't get is why are you on this fan site if you are not a Prince fan. I am not a die hard MJ (I was only during the Thriller days) or Madonna fan, so I don't go to their fansites to check on them(cuz I don't care) let alone go to their fansite's and bitch about them. someone wrote on this thread "as a use to be prince fan", hmmm again, then why r u on a prince fansite if u r no longer a fan. And no, I don't think that MJ or Madonna fans (cuz they r 2 busy over here stirring the pot,lol) are as rude as Prince fans are. But I love Prince!!!!

mjscarousal said:

Unholyalliance said:

I'm a little confused you guys.

I thought the whole purpose of being a popular music artist was about chasing trends in some sort of fashion. If you don't, how will your music sell? Things are constantly changing and moving forwards, so if you don't how would one intend to make it in such an industry?

That is unless you are targeting a niche market, then yeah...you can do what you want then, but I still think it has to adhere to the genre no?

Thats not completely true and just because your a pop star doesnt mean you have to be unorginal their are plenty of pop stars that were original and set trends... The Beatles, Michael etc...

I NEVER said Michael didnt follow trends as well I said he didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING trends... he was a PIONEER and had innovated trends... MOST of the trends he started most pop stars now and during his period follow.. he set most of the formula pop trends that still continue today... If he did follow trends it was very little and he still incorporated HIS creativity for example... Dangerous was a new jack swing inspired album like most during that era BUT still incorporated alot of eclectic sounds and material..

No one in this thread is claiming MJ never set trends, just that sometimes he followed them. As a popstar it's impossible not to and it doesn't make his innovations any less important.

PurpleRayven said:

What I don't get is why are you on this fan site if you are not a Prince fan. I am not a die hard MJ (I was only during the Thriller days) or Madonna fan, so I don't go to their fansites to check on them(cuz I don't care) let alone go to their fansite's and bitch about them. someone wrote on this thread "as a use to be prince fan", hmmm again, then why r u on a prince fansite if u r no longer a fan. And no, I don't think that MJ or Madonna fans (cuz they r 2 busy over here stirring the pot,lol) are as rude as Prince fans are. But I love Prince!!!!

Because this site thankfully has alot more going on it than just Prince. I visit every part of this site except for one.

mjscarousal said:

Thats not completely true and just because your a pop star doesnt mean you have to be unorginal their are plenty of pop stars that were original and set trends... The Beatles, Michael etc...

I NEVER said Michael didnt follow trends as well I said he didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING trends... he was a PIONEER and had innovated trends... MOST of the trends he started most pop stars now and during his period follow.. he set most of the formula pop trends that still continue today... If he did follow trends it was very little and he still incorporated HIS creativity for example... Dangerous was a new jack swing inspired album like most during that era BUT still incorporated alot of eclectic sounds and material..

So chasing trends is when you are just copying as opposed to incoporating/being influenced then right? So, for example: MJ also came out with a disco album along with everyone else at the time, but with it he ended up helping to shape 'post-disco' due to it's jazz/funk influences/sound. I always thought that's what MJ did myself. So, basically, that other poster RJKNCE, or whatever, was kinda talking out of their ass then? With Madonna, I always thought that she was doing whatever was hot at the clubs at the moment even though she, and Prince, do get credit for helping to shape dance-pop as well. (Not including all the people who worked with all three of them.)

People have their personal reasons.

That's all you need to know.

[Edited 12/5/11 10:42am]

lazycrockett said:

PurpleRayven said:

What I don't get is why are you on this fan site if you are not a Prince fan. I am not a die hard MJ (I was only during the Thriller days) or Madonna fan, so I don't go to their fansites to check on them(cuz I don't care) let alone go to their fansite's and bitch about them. someone wrote on this thread "as a use to be prince fan", hmmm again, then why r u on a prince fansite if u r no longer a fan. And no, I don't think that MJ or Madonna fans (cuz they r 2 busy over here stirring the pot,lol) are as rude as Prince fans are. But I love Prince!!!!

Because this site thankfully has alot more going on it than just Prince. I visit every part of this site except for one.

I started off mostly on the prince music forum, but eventually I got tired of talking about how much I miss 80s and even 90s prince.

MattyJam said:

jonylawson said:

Well i may be a dick but how does that above quote qualify me as said apendage?

love MJ all you want- he isnt classed as a musician..by anyone

Whether you choose to classify him as a musician or not, he was and still is internationally recognised for being insanely gifted musically, as a songwriter, a vocalist and an entertainer. Anybody can learn to play a few different instruments to a competant level. Would you call Lenny Kravitz more talented than Michael Jackson just because he can strum a few chords and play the drums?

I wager that the vast majority of people outside of fanboards would say MJ was equally as talented as Prince or moreso.

Michael Jackson knew how to play the piano on an above average level. Just because the man didn't use a piano in every live performance he did (because duh, he needs to focus on dancing), doesn't mean he wasn't a musician.

Jony, revise your statement. Not everyone thinks the way you do about Michael Jackson's musical ability.

MattyJam said:

Whether you choose to classify him as a musician or not, he was and still is internationally recognised for being insanely gifted musically, as a songwriter, a vocalist and an entertainer. Anybody can learn to play a few different instruments to a competant level. Would you call Lenny Kravitz more talented than Michael Jackson just because he can strum a few chords and play the drums?

I wager that the vast majority of people outside of fanboards would say MJ was equally as talented as Prince or moreso.

HonestMan13 said:

there's the fans who have moved along with Prince throughout his career and still value his output and then there's the fans who got stuck around 1993-1995 and feel betrayed by everthing released since on a deep personal level.

I've never seen as much bitching as I've seen on this site by Prince fans themselves. I believe in Prince's talent, and he's a very talented musician, but he really has a nasty attitude towards his fans, or those he not-so-lovingly refers to as "fams". A brilliant musician? Yes. A kind-hearted unselfish man? No.

Prior to Michael's passing, I ain't never heard bitching from the fans about the music or Michael. Michael loved them and everything he did, he did for them. Kinda saddening, considering he practically died in this devotion.

After his passing...well the bitching hasn't stopped. There is severe disaccord between many fans, and I personally feel the unity that once kept us together isn't there anymore. I personally keep a lot of them away from me because I can't stand their nonsense.

Madonna fans? I've met some nice fans of hers. Although some of her younger fans also happen to like Lady Gaga...and some are crazy as hell.

jonylawson said:

no idea what madonna fans are like...usually it seems middle aged and homosexual

Oh damn.

Graycap23 said:

MattyJam said:

Whether you choose to classify him as a musician or not, he was and still is internationally recognised for being insanely gifted musically, as a songwriter, a vocalist and an entertainer. Anybody can learn to play a few different instruments to a competant level. Would you call Lenny Kravitz more talented than Michael Jackson just because he can strum a few chords and play the drums?

I wager that the vast majority of people outside of fanboards would say MJ was equally as talented as Prince or moreso.

This smiley is nothing said.
Oh, come on, people talk about MJ different things, from good to bad and even horrible, but the vast majority believed that it was a very talented man. It's just too obvious.

Maybe you will answer my question?

Or talent for you is limited only by the ability to play any musical instrument and all? To sing in 11 years in 3-octave voice, do not need a talent? To dance better than any other pop artist does not need a talent? I am not to understand your logic ....

I love Prince, he is not number one for me, but among the favorites.
But so annoyed when fans are always talking about what he - it's the best thing that happened in music ever, and his talent is unprecedented and is unmatched.

This is snobbery ..

I simply refuse 2 compare Mj and Prince. 2 completely different type of artist.

2 different skill sets, 2 different sets of goals, 2 different relationships with their fans, 2 different relationships with their record companies,

2 different lifestyles.

LiLi1992 said:

Graycap23 said:

This smiley is nothing said.
Oh, come on, people talk about MJ different things, from good to bad and even horrible, but the vast majority believed that it was a very talented man. It's just too obvious.

Maybe you will answer my question?

Or talent for you is limited only by the ability to play any musical instrument and all? To sing in 11 years in 3-octave voice, do not need a talent? To dance better than any other pop artist does not need a talent? I am not to understand your logic ....

I love Prince, he is not number one for me, but among the favorites.
But so annoyed when fans are always talking about what he - it's the best thing that happened in music ever, and his talent is unprecedented and is unmatched.

If MJ talents do not matter, then we have a Bowie (amazing talent, an innovator, an incredibly creative person) Freddie Mercury (incredible singer and a good songwriter, quite possibly the most charismatic singer in history) and a few other names.
Prince - a great musician, instrumentalist, but other artists gifted in other things just as much as he. Take a look around!

This is snobbery ..

[Edited 12/5/11 13:22pm]

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

I've never seen as much bitching as I've seen on this site by Prince fans themselves. I believe in Prince's talent, and he's a very talented musician, but he really has a nasty attitude towards his fans, or those he not-so-lovingly refers to as "fams". A brilliant musician? Yes. A kind-hearted unselfish man? No.

Prior to Michael's passing, I ain't never heard bitching from the fans about the music or Michael. Michael loved them and everything he did, he did for them. Kinda saddening, considering he practically died in this devotion.

After his passing...well the bitching hasn't stopped. There is severe disaccord between many fans, and I personally feel the unity that once kept us together isn't there anymore. I personally keep a lot of them away from me because I can't stand their nonsense.

Madonna fans? I've met some nice fans of hers. Although some of her younger fans also happen to like Lady Gaga...and some are crazy as hell.

LOL. that explains it all. That's the reason why I'm crazy!
Finally I know why!
And well yeah.. I know he has been nasty to his fans but that doesn't automaticaly make you a bad person. we don't know him personally do we? no, so i'm not gonna judge him.

Graycap23 said:

I simply refuse 2 compare Mj and Prince. 2 completely different type of artist.

2 different skill sets, 2 different sets of goals, 2 different relationships with their fans, 2 different relationships with their record companies, 2 different realtionships with their fans.

2 different lifestyles.

LiLi1992 said:

Right on the money.

Graycap23 said:

I simply refuse 2 compare Mj and Prince. 2 completely different type of artist.

2 different skill sets, 2 different sets of goals, 2 different relationships with their fans, 2 different relationships with their record companies,

2 different lifestyles.

LiLi1992 said:

[Edited 12/5/11 13:22pm]

Graycap, I may not always agree with what you say, but thank you for saying this.

Yeah, people. Let the whole Prince vs. MJ fiasco die with the 80's please!

i truly have never understood how MJ and P were ever compared.

jonylawson said:

i truly have never understood how MJ and P were ever compared.

They share a lot of qualities just as they do NOT share a lot of qualities.

1. Some Madonna-fans would bitch with her concerning Mariah, if that counts for something.

2. MJJ-fans would never bitch. But if you ever speak blasphemy against Michael these days, they will verbally ripped your freaking head off. Just ask Nikki Sixx OR Gene Simmons!

3. Prince-fans are THE worst when it comes to bitching. Prince has made more then enough bad business decisions (especially suing fan sites like THIS one!) to justify it. Knowing what we know now, Prince might have been better off retiring after the Emancipation-era to prevent most of his fans from bitching.

RKJCNE said:

mjscarousal said:

Thats not completely true and just because your a pop star doesnt mean you have to be unorginal their are plenty of pop stars that were original and set trends... The Beatles, Michael etc...

I NEVER said Michael didnt follow trends as well I said he didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING trends... he was a PIONEER and had innovated trends... MOST of the trends he started most pop stars now and during his period follow.. he set most of the formula pop trends that still continue today... If he did follow trends it was very little and he still incorporated HIS creativity for example... Dangerous was a new jack swing inspired album like most during that era BUT still incorporated alot of eclectic sounds and material..

No one in this thread is claiming MJ never set trends, just that sometimes he followed them. As a popstar it's impossible not to and it doesn't make his innovations any less important.

He helped popularized certain things and implemented HIS creativity in them maintaining his originality... I agree that he did follow some things while incorporating his own creativity but I disagree with it being IMPOSSIBLE to thrive in the pop industry... maybe TODAY yes but during Michaels reign.. I doubt it.

I never said he didnt follow trends at times.. I said he didnt based his ENTIRE career for the most part he was innovative.

[Edited 12/5/11 14:40pm]

TonyVanDam said:

1. Some Madonna-fans would bitch with her concerning Mariah, if that counts for something.

2. MJJ-fans would never bitch. But if you ever speak blasphemy against Michael these days, they will verbally ripped your freaking head off. Just ask Nikki Sixx OR Gene Simmons!

3. Prince-fans are THE worst when it comes to bitching. Prince has made more then enough bad business decisions (especially suing fan sites like THIS one!) to justify it. Knowing what we know now, Prince might have been better off retiring after the Emancipation-era to prevent most of his fans from bitching.

And both those men you listed can join hands and kiss my mothafuckin' ass....

That was the only way they could get publicity for their own shit...throwing shade at a man who isn't even here anymore.

jonylawson said:

i truly have never understood how MJ and P were ever compared.

I agree, I never saw the comparison at all. Outside of in the 1983-1985 years they were 2 of the mega stars on the scene. the Mania surrounding them at the time was just crazy

Unholyalliance said:

mjscarousal said:

Thats not completely true and just because your a pop star doesnt mean you have to be unorginal their are plenty of pop stars that were original and set trends... The Beatles, Michael etc...

I NEVER said Michael didnt follow trends as well I said he didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING trends... he was a PIONEER and had innovated trends... MOST of the trends he started most pop stars now and during his period follow.. he set most of the formula pop trends that still continue today... If he did follow trends it was very little and he still incorporated HIS creativity for example... Dangerous was a new jack swing inspired album like most during that era BUT still incorporated alot of eclectic sounds and material..

So chasing trends is when you are just copying as opposed to incoporating/being influenced then right? So, for example: MJ also came out with a disco album along with everyone else at the time, but with it he ended up helping to shape 'post-disco' due to it's jazz/funk influences/sound. I always thought that's what MJ did myself. So, basically, that other poster RJKNCE, or whatever, was kinda talking out of their ass then? With Madonna, I always thought that she was doing whatever was hot at the clubs at the moment even though she, and Prince, do get credit for helping to shape dance-pop as well. (Not including all the people who worked with all three of them.)

PurpleRayven said:

What I don't get is why are you on this fan site if you are not a Prince fan.

People have their personal reasons.

That's all you need to know.

[Edited 12/5/11 10:42am]

LOL RJ always talks out of his ass BUT on this issue SOME of what he is saying is true.. I just disagree with the notion that a pop star cant be original... because even within a trend you can still show creativity and experimentation... MOST of Michaels material and works were innovative from scratch and because of that STARTED trends in itself... he was a trendsetter!!

But I agree with the point you made as well

TheFreakerFantastic said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

What trends are she chasing?

What 80's sound? How could she stay with an 80's sound?

As she said herself why is that a person has to stop being sexy or sexual once they pass an age (ageism) Yes at 53 she still has it and people love it

what period of time was there long gaps between albums? 2 easily answer that look at what was going on in her life.

She released Sticky Sweet and did the tour the tour was such a hit and sell out that she did Sticky Sweet 2 and continued into the next years time

she got married-divorced, had a child, got married again & had another child.

I don't see how she really could have stayed the same artist she was in the 1980s yet she really is doing the same thing yet on a bigger scale

She has been tracing the silly R&B trend / Timberlake shit, ie. think of '4 minutes'...(P has also been guilty of that recently with damn autotune).

People like Prince and Madonna should be making new trends not copying other trends already out there.

The 80s sound is what made her good IMO, since 97 she hasn't really been 'Madonna' but a different artist as far as I can see, but her fans seem to lap it up....

I don't think people stop being sexy after a certain age.....look at Nigella Lawson or the actress Helen Mirren, she's freakin hot and she's late 60s...

BUT you can be dignified about it and Madonna spreading her legs in leotards and fishnets at 53 is just not sexy but smacks of desperation....

She can still be sexy, but be more subtle about it....(maybe like Prince is now)

I don't think she chasing(tracing?) an R&B trend.

On what album? the last one she had 2 or 3 songs with them on it. If she admires them and wants to work with them whats the problem? That album, if uve heard it is pretty diverse. If she had 2-3 albums with the same thing then you could say she's chasing it, but that's not the case by a long shot.

in 2011 I question how much 'new' musical trends can really be created vs how music was in the 1970s or 80's

I don't think its desperate at all. Again you're controlling a womans sexuality... like female circums. Tina Turner came back on the scene a few years looking like 1980's Tina and I don't think any told her to cover up

Madonna is in shape, how is dignified supposed to look?

Her body is more toned that a lot of those 20 something on the scene

And she dresses very classy, you make it seem like she is running around is daisy duke 24/7

Sending love to you OldFriends4Sale

As for people saying I talk out of my ass, I can't help it! My ass just speaks for itself.

[Edited 12/5/11 17:33pm]

^^ Are you the person who insisted that Madonna was never going to release another full-length album? I keep asking, but nobody will fess up. I really want to rub their nose in it.

I know Madonna fans from here and other forums and yes they are quite critical of her work when needed

As I'm both a MJ and Prince fan, I can say fans can be VERY critical of their work. Not all MJ fans worship him and his music. I loved the man and his work but I sure as hell wasn't gonna sit outside in the cold his damn hotel and sing "Heal The World" like I know some folks did (and I know some who really did that ) and I and many others criticized him many times for not putting out more music or focusing on other matters (like trying to build theme parks, movie companies, and shit like that)

Prince, I'm critical of too, but I've seen on this site, fans being maybe TOO harsh on the guy. At times it feels like hating just for the sake of hating

Aw the heal the world stuff was cute....when I was 13 and watching it on TV If I were in that crowd if he was still alive, I would be trying to scream over them and say I love him and stuff like that

And yeah, I feel so selfish for it, but I was critical and upset he was not active for awhile too though I understood the circumstances, and was really angry with what he was put through, how that made it hard to enjoy the fun part of being a fan, but am learning to let go.

[Edited 12/6/11 4:44am]