Spinlight said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

What Prince was doing in the early days was obviously a blatant crossover attempt. Eventually he just stopped caring about his black audience and released Purple Rain, his ultimate crossover album. Then he weirded them all out with Around The World In A Day. It's funny how Michael Jackson is thone of the only black artists who has had to cross over to a black audience (or, in his case, cross back over. And he never really fully made it there. Dangerous got him some well earned street cred though. )

What's weird to me is that both MJ and P had to feel compelled to come "back to" their black audience and, in the end, MJ was the one who received the actual audience and P received the actual cred.

I'm curious as to what kind of music P would be making today if his attempts at reaching the black 90s audience went as swimmingly as MJ's......

Michael was hurt by years of criticism and needed to prove something because of his white skin. He needed the most current black producers and Teddy Riley was IT. Dangerous' New Jack singles were quite big on the R&B charts, so that kind of helped him. After the poppiness and crossover appeal of not only Thriller, but also Bad, Dangerous helped him get back that black audience. Because of Thriller, though, he will forever be seen as the ultimate sellout artist.

I think that Prince got the cred easier because he was always a bad mofo. The swagger, the attitude, the music...all of that got him major cred. Because he was already huge with his black audience before Purple Rain, all he needed was to snap his fingers just to get that cred back. I don't think that he ever got the audience because he was never as huge as Michael was and many never saw him as appealing as Mike. The name change and slave thing also turned off some as well. That pretty much killed any chance of Prince getting back the black audience he had pre-Rain.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Justin Timberlake looks in the mirror and sees a black man. His first crossover songs (posted in the thread about JT making it without NSYNC) cites Gone and some song with Nelly as being crossover hits that allowed him to release Justified and FutureSex/LoveSounds, both R&B albums that screamed "Please make me black"

Thoughts?

[Edited 8/8/11 14:45pm]

OMFG. If I'd been drinking soda when I read that you'd so owe me a new laptop.

Anyhow, I think some white artists do it because they genuinely like and appreciate the music -- I'd put George Michael, Teena Marie, et al into that category. But for the rest, I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with how nowadays white kids are so fascinated with black culture that if they see black kids buying something they'll buy it too. (Did anybody see Byron Hurt's documentary Beyond Beats and Rhymes where some white woman was talking about her romantized fascination with the ghetto?) So, you start out aggressively targeting a smaller audience, which is less expensive, and in the end also get a larger audience who's proven that they often follow the trends of this smaller group. But then you have the problem of how tough it is to KEEP the attention of those larger markets, so if you can have a fanbase in a certain community, odds are they'll be pretty loyal to you, similar to Cher and Gaga with the gay community. (Of course, it would be wise not to fuck it up with your fanbase like certain white artists have...I won't name names, but I know we can all think of a few.)

And yeah, I understand that some people feel like this is "focusing on race" or "making race an issue," but the fact is, it ALREADY is an issue, and ignoring it won't make it less so. In fact, it'll be even LESS likely to go away if we refuse to talk about it or convince ourselves that we're all farting ponies and rainbows while living in some kind of post-racial utopia.

Arbwyth said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Justin Timberlake looks in the mirror and sees a black man. His first crossover songs (posted in the thread about JT making it without NSYNC) cites Gone and some song with Nelly as being crossover hits that allowed him to release Justified and FutureSex/LoveSounds, both R&B albums that screamed "Please make me black"

Thoughts?

[Edited 8/8/11 14:45pm]

OMFG. If I'd been drinking soda when I read that you'd so owe me a new laptop.

Anyhow, I think some white artists do it because they genuinely like and appreciate the music -- I'd put George Michael, Teena Marie, et al into that category. But for the rest, I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with how nowadays white kids are so fascinated with black culture that if they see black kids buying something they'll buy it too. (Did anybody see Byron Hurt's documentary Beyond Beats and Rhymes where some white woman was talking about her romantized fascination with the ghetto?) So, you start out aggressively targeting a smaller audience, which is less expensive, and in the end also get a larger audience who's proven that they often follow the trends of this smaller group. But then you have the problem of how tough it is to KEEP the attention of those larger markets, so if you can have a fanbase in a certain community, odds are they'll be pretty loyal to you, similar to Cher and Gaga with the gay community. (Of course, it would be wise not to fuck it up with your fanbase like certain white artists have...I won't name names, but I know we can all think of a few.)

And yeah, I understand that some people feel like this is "focusing on race" or "making race an issue," but the fact is, it ALREADY is an issue, and ignoring it won't make it less so. In fact, it'll be even LESS likely to go away if we refuse to talk about it or convince ourselves that we're all farting ponies and rainbows while living in some kind of post-racial utopia.

I 100% agree.

Has anyone noticed that many artists are now trying to "crossover" so to speak to the gay community? Artists trying to create anthems about the gay community, trying to win them over. I noticed a trend after Gaga's Born This Way came out. Now Ke$ha's done it, Pink has, Katy Perry has...

[Edited 8/8/11 19:34pm]

smoothcriminal12 said:

TonyVanDam said:

CORRECTION: With the album Faith, George Michael became the first white male artist to ever have an album go #1 on the Billboards R&B/Soul (today known as Hip-Hop/R&B) album charts.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

You said "top the r&b charts". I was more specific in saying "go #1 on the Billboards R&B/Soul".

TonyVanDam said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Isn't that exactly what I said?

You said "top the r&b charts". I was more specific in saying "go #1 on the Billboards R&B/Soul".

Ah, ok. Yeah, for a second I forgot the name so I just wrote R&B charts.

More money. More profits. Enough said.

AlexdeParis said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Isn't that exactly what I said?

Basically. Faith hit #1 on the Black album chart like you said and it also won an award (I believe an AMA) for Best Black Album. IIRC, Alexander O'Neal was heated about that, because his (also great) album didn't win.

I remember Michael Bivins speaking on it too when New Edition was

on Video Soul. He was puzzled because he thought all the brothers

listened to Keith Sweat. Apparently some were listening to George

Michael too.

Music is music to me. I would've probably been in this discussion when it was brought up two years ago but eh.

Timmy84 said:

Music is music to me. I would've probably been in this discussion when it was brought up two years ago but eh.

It's the same for me as well, but the reason I posted this thread is because I wanted to know why white artists (and black artists) were so eager to cross over to a certain demographic that was perceived to like a certain type of music. I wasn't trying to divide music into races or ish like that. Music is still music in the end.

Its music. People make it to be listened to. If it moves you, listen. If it doesn't, go on to something that does.

Bringing race into it, particularly in this manner, is bait, pure and simple. You even say so yourself. "Now this will be controversial. Thread title get your attention?" I mean, really, should we talk about why black artists have been trying to cross over for the last fifty years? (That's rhetorical, btw, because I already answered the question in my first paragraph.)

Step out of the box you live in. Tear it down and throw it away. While you're at it, help your neighbor do the same. These race based categories only exists because people refuse to let them go and move on to a higher place. Its the system controlling you. Fuck the system. Ya know?

But whatever... like Timmy said... I'ma step away from this one now.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

Music is music to me. I would've probably been in this discussion when it was brought up two years ago but eh.

It's the same for me as well, but the reason I posted this thread is because I wanted to know why white artists (and black artists) were so eager to cross over to a certain demographic that was perceived to like a certain type of music. I wasn't trying to divide music into races or ish like that. Music is still music in the end.

Really glad you said that, but I still stand by my last post.

Cerebus said:

Its music. People make it to be listened to. If it moves you, listen. If it doesn't, go on to something that does.

Bringing race into it, particularly in this manner, is bait, pure and simple. You even say so yourself. "Now this will be controversial. Thread title get your attention?" I mean, really, should we talk about why black artists have been trying to cross over for the last fifty years? (That's rhetorical, btw, because I already answered the question in my first paragraph.)

Step out of the box you live in. Tear it down and throw it away. While you're at it, help your neighbor do the same. These race based categories only exists because people refuse to let them go and move on to a higher place. Its the system controlling you. Fuck the system. Ya know?

But whatever... like Timmy said... I'ma step away from this one now.

Bait? Hm. It wasn't supposed to be bait, but oh well.

(In the last paragraph, I do say vice versa for black artists though).

Let's, however, not try to pretend that race is not a major factor in the industry. Specific artists are targeted at specific audiences for reasons, thus creating the crossover artist. The only reason I posted about white artists crossing over is because I genuinely wanted to ask a real question about crossing over and why it's so important to artists (specifically whites crossing over to blacks because they are the majority. Although I'd wager that blacks do the majority of the crossing over.)

This was never meant to put up walls and divide, and I'm sorry if anyone ever felt that way.

Cerebus said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

It's the same for me as well, but the reason I posted this thread is because I wanted to know why white artists (and black artists) were so eager to cross over to a certain demographic that was perceived to like a certain type of music. I wasn't trying to divide music into races or ish like that. Music is still music in the end.

Really glad you said that, but I still stand by my last post.

Thanks.

MickyDolenz said:

Well, how is it that black people (in the US) generally won't accept blacks who make rock or folk music and black radio doesn't play it? Such as Living Colour, Jimi Hendrix, Tracy Chapman, Traci Chapman, Odetta, etc. How about easy listening/adult contemporary like Johnny Mathis, opera like Kathleen Battle, and country like Charlie Pride? Same for blues & jazz, a lot of the audience is white and so are a lot of the younger acts. It was white guys from England who promoted the blues performers in the 60's and popularized it after it had became obscure and was only in the juke joints. If it's not R&B, soul, rap, or funk and maybe gospel, then it is ignored by a lot of black people.

Oh, I dunno, I think that's a slight overgeneralization. Your statement is largely true of the black audience as a whole but many do support a lot of the artists you mention. Just not enough to achieve mainstream success.

smoothcriminal12 said:

TonyVanDam said:

You said "top the r&b charts". I was more specific in saying "go #1 on the Billboards R&B/Soul".

Ah, ok. Yeah, for a second I forgot the name so I just wrote R&B charts.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure it was called Top Black Albums at that point.

its mostly because honky's need someone love too.

look at timbercock. his penis nose, whiny vocals, and shit songs are a travesty to music.

fuck these crossover artists.

Just a hypothetical:

You make money by selling a product to 100 people of the same color.

But you have the opportunity to make more money by selling the

same product to a group of people who aren't the same color as the first group.

Not only this, but where once the market place where you sell your

product was sectioned off by color, now, the market place includes

all kinds of colors mixed; You are a fucking retard if you don't

leap at the possibility of selling a product to both groups at a bigger

market place!

And Black artists cross over to white as well so what's really the

difference?

Besides, we are a PRINCE board - what the fuck are we talking

about the ill and evil of an artist crossing over for?

[Edited 8/9/11 10:42am]

duccichucka said:

Just a hypothetical:

You make money by selling a product to 100 people of the same color.

But you have the opportunity to make more money by selling the

same product to a group of people who aren't the same color as the first group.

Not only this, but where once the market place where you sell your

product was sectioned off by color, now, the market place includes

all kinds of colors mixed; You are a fucking retard if you don't

leap at the possibility of selling a product to both groups at a bigger

market place!

And Black artists cross over to white as well so what's really the

difference?

Besides, we are a PRINCE board - what the fuck are we talking

about the ill and evil of an artist crossing over for?

[Edited 8/9/11 10:42am]

Did you even read the full post?

smoothcriminal12 said:

duccichucka said:

Just a hypothetical:

You make money by selling a product to 100 people of the same color.

But you have the opportunity to make more money by selling the

same product to a group of people who aren't the same color as the first group.

Not only this, but where once the market place where you sell your

product was sectioned off by color, now, the market place includes

all kinds of colors mixed; You are a fucking retard if you don't

leap at the possibility of selling a product to both groups at a bigger

market place!

And Black artists cross over to white as well so what's really the

difference?

Besides, we are a PRINCE board - what the fuck are we talking

about the ill and evil of an artist crossing over for?

[Edited 8/9/11 10:42am]

Did you even read the full post?

No. Should I?

I just responded to the title of the thread. My bad. Thanks for the heads up.

My opinion is still valid, though.

duccichucka said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Did you even read the full post?

No. Should I?

I just responded to the title of the thread. My bad. Thanks for the heads up.

My opinion is still valid, though.

At the end I say vice versa for black artists and in a few other posts I mention that it isn't just about race.

smoothcriminal12 said:

At the end I say vice versa for black artists and in a few other posts I mention that it isn't just about race.

The music isn't, I absolutely agree.

The business of matketing and selling music is absolutely another story altogether.

namepeace said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

At the end I say vice versa for black artists and in a few other posts I mention that it isn't just about race.

The music isn't, I absolutely agree.

The business of matketing and selling music is absolutely another story altogether.

100% Agree. I also mentioned that earlier too.

smoothcriminal12 said:

namepeace said:

The music isn't, I absolutely agree.

The business of matketing and selling music is absolutely another story altogether.

100% Agree. I also mentioned that earlier too.

What do expect me to do? Pay attention?

namepeace said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

100% Agree. I also mentioned that earlier too.

What do expect me to do? Pay attention?

Well it might be a good idea.

take a listen: The Rigteous Brothers 'YOU'VE LOST THAT LOVIN' FEELIN'

http://www.youtube.com/wa...EkB-VQviLI

circa 1964. ask your grands about these guys. at that time it was taken for granted they were not white singers. 'surprise 'surprise.

imo, the record buyers "cross them over." it's the record company that turns them into pawns.