The1592 said:

WaterInYourBath said:

Whatever implicit arrogance Michael exhibited with his art, it is all warranted, in my opinion.

Besides, he never demonstrated any conceit/self-importance towards his fans, ever. To me, that completely overshadows all instances of the "yes, I'm the best" theme people believe he implied with those examples you've posted.

Just to remind everyone what my original point was - I found an article [ This Article ] about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness, I wondered aloud if his "personal troubles" would have never occured had he stayed a witness, then I wondered aloud if he would have remained popular and "humble" had he stayed a witness. When I said he was viewed as arrogant, I meant to say that the general public didn't like his "I'm so bad" or "I'm so cool", "I'm the king of pop" etc. attitude that they felt he had, which is why I believe the public turned on him in the 1990s.

I was saying that Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't be allowed to call themselves "king" and have videos where people faint over them, as their religion frowns upon that type of behavior. I think the public would have liked Michael more if he were less "showy", and I think the fame eventually went to his head, which I don't think would have happened if he'd kept his strong faith.

btw, for the record, I'm not super religious, nor am I trying to push the JW religion on people. I'm just saying Michael seemed more peaceful and successful when he was a witness.

Now, perhaps it's time to move on and forget this discussion ever happened... I don't want to start any fights.

[Edited 7/24/11 1:57am]

Personally, I think that most of Michael's issues stemmed from the JW religion. Around the time that he left the religion, is the same time that he began to change his appearance (granted, the vitilago was not his doing), I'm talking about the plastic surgery. Based on what I've heard from other JWs who leave the religion, they have a hard time leaving it behind. Many feel guilty over it for years. The reason for the guilt is that they are taught that the JW religion is the only true religion. They equate leaving the religion with leaving God.

I don't think that he would have been any better off had he stayed with the religion though. He would have been miserable, and that misery would have manifested itself in some form in his life. How can a person be at peace with going through the motions of something they no longer believe in. In one interview in which the subject of the Thriller video came up, Micheal stated that he felt that the JW religion was taking certain scriptures too far. I think that his eyes were beginning to open regarding some of their teachings.

For those in Brooklyn, NY!

http://img23.imageshack.u...6229la.jpg

[img:$uid]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/28974_1307488444581_1151640417_30719881_3769925_n.jpg[/img:$uid]

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

What I would do as Sony/Estate (this was originally written in 2010)

2010 ‘Michael’ CD

Release a deluxe version with the finished tracks and the source material as a bonus disc.

2011 – June - OFF THE WALL – Deluxe Box

Fully remastered Off The Wall in both Stereo and 5.1 mix.

Album to contain bonus disc of outtakes and alternate versions.

2011 – August - BAD – Deluxe Box (25^th Anniversary)

Fully remastered in Stereo and 5.1

Album to contain bonus tracks and alternate recordings

2011 October – THE MASTER - Tour DVD Box Set

Release a MJ LIVE tour box set featuring Bad Tour (Los Angeles), Dangerous Tour (London) HiStory Tour (Sydney – including DS & Come Together)

2011 – November - Jacksons Live DVD set

A triple DVD set of Destiny / Triumph and Victory tours fully restored and remastered featuring behind the scenes featurettes

2011 December ‘Jackson’ (blue eye cover)

12 tracks of unreleased material from 1989 -2009

2012 - January - The Immortal CD & DVD

Release a CD for the Cirque du Solei show as long as it is given the same musical reinvention as The Beatles “Love” album.

2012 – August – Dangerous (21st Anniversary)

Fully remastered in Stereo and 5.1

Album to contain bonus tracks and alternate recordings.

2012 – December - Singles Box Set

Release a CD-Single box set of all of Michael’s solo releases for Epic.

Each single will contain the original track listing as the 12” records, and feature original artwork.

2013 – August - HiStory Book II

Fully remastered HiStory album in Stereo and 5.1

Bonus disc to contain extra tracks taken from the History recording sessions.

2013 – December - The Journey – CD Box set

A collection of unreleased demos and recordings from 1979-2001

2014 – February – ‘MJ’ – BioPic worldwide release

2014 - June – 5^th Anniversary Tribute

Collection of 25 covers from artists influenced by Michael and his music.

2014 – August - Tribute Concert Pay per View

(Not organised by any Jackson)

DVD released November of that year.

2015 - January - 7 CD

A remix project of 20 classic MJ tracks.

2015 – August – Invincible Deluxe

Fully remastered in stereo and 5.1

Album to contain extra tracks taken from the Invincible sessions.

2015 – December – Thriller – The Complete Sessions

The original mix of Thriller with complete versions of Billie Jean, Lady In My Life.

Bonus remix CD of the album.

Bonus CD of demos and tracks that didn’t make the cut.

WaterInYourBath said:

The1592 said:

I'm more referring to the HIStory statues, the calling himself "king", songs like "Unbreakable" and "Threatened", live videos constantly showing fans fainting, "Brace Yourself" video, etc... I think he was a good person, but I know that many in the general public would definitely say he was very arrogant. Many have, actually.

Whatever implicit arrogance Michael exhibited with his art, it is all warranted, in my opinion.

Besides, he never demonstrated any conceit/self-importance towards his fans, ever. To me, that completely overshadows all instances of the "yes, I'm the best" theme people believe he implied with those examples you've posted.

Very true! If I had even a glimmer of the amount of talent that man had,I think I would be a little bit arrogant myself!

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

As much as I love hearing unreleased music of Michael's,I don't think I would trust them with him stuff again after the crap job they did on the last one.

So until they get someone to actually do a good job with his material,(and not stick a bunch of fake songs on it,trying to pass it off as Michael)I think the rest of the releases should all be DVD'S!!

[Edited 7/24/11 20:34pm]

EmeraldSkies said:

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

As much as I love hearing unreleased music of Michael's,I don't think I would trust them with him stuff again after the crap job they did on the last one.

So until they get someone to actually do a good job with his material,(and not stick a bunch of fake songs on it,trying to pass it off as Michael)I think the rest of the releases should all be DVD'S!!

[Edited 7/24/11 20:34pm]

Right.

Apparently, the July 16, 1988 Wembley Show from the Bad Tour will be released next year.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Apparently, the July 16, 1988 Wembley Show from the Bad Tour will be released next year.

[img:$uid]http://i52.tinypic.com/sxnno7.jpg[/img:$uid]

Where did you get the info? I read on MJJC and Max Jax that it was either going to be the July 14th one of the one from July 16 or a mix of both

smoothcriminal12 said:

Apparently, the July 16, 1988 Wembley Show from the Bad Tour will be released next year.

Timmy84 said:

EmeraldSkies said:

As much as I love hearing unreleased music of Michael's,I don't think I would trust them with him stuff again after the crap job they did on the last one.

So until they get someone to actually do a good job with his material,(and not stick a bunch of fake songs on it,trying to pass it off as Michael)I think the rest of the releases should all be DVD'S!!

[Edited 7/24/11 20:34pm]

Right.

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

Just like everyone else a 2nd leg bad tour dvd in good quality. I dont care for the music anymore cause they are going to update it anyway. Best song of michael was behind the mask , a song over 25 years old thats says enough . Michaels post humous career is not a flattering one in terms of quality

smoothcriminal12 said:

Cloudbuster said:

Yeah, Jarvis Cocker. I actually quite like Cocker but he was a massive hypocrite about that MJ performance. To me it was simply a piece of theatre, definately the most entertaining performance of the evening even if somewhat slack by MJ's usual standards.

My beef with Cocker was simply that while he criticised Mike for his messianic grandstanding, Cocker himself came down from the rafters on wires for his own performance. Pot meet kettle.

Of course, no-one commented on that as "Jacko-bashing" was at its most rife at that time.

It's funny how he later said that he went on stage because he was pretending to be Jesus when he went on before that happened.

Oh yeah, I didn't even realize that.

motownlover said:

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

Just like everyone else a 2nd leg bad tour dvd in good quality. I dont care for the music anymore cause they are going to update it anyway. Best song of michael was behind the mask , a song over 25 years old thats says enough . Michaels post humous career is not a flattering one in terms of quality

Hhe sone as ethe songase the songs in the original form? Would you be interested in the songs if they were released "as is"?

Why is it when labels release material of R&B and hip hop artists after they pass, they do they feel the need to "update" the material?

bboy87 said:

motownlover said:

Just like everyone else a 2nd leg bad tour dvd in good quality. I dont care for the music anymore cause they are going to update it anyway. Best song of michael was behind the mask , a song over 25 years old thats says enough . Michaels post humous career is not a flattering one in terms of quality

Hhe sone as ethe songase the songs in the original form? Would you be interested in the songs if they were released "as is"?

Why is it when labels release material of R&B and hip hop artists after they pass, they do they feel the need to "update" the material?

They do the same to some past rock acts. I don't get why they even do that anyways. They've done that to 2Pac too many fucking times that if he was alive today, he'd curse at all of them right now.

^^ I'm happy with an update sound on 2 conditions - 1. the producer/engineer in the original sessions do the mix and 2. they release the original versions (demos) as an accompanying disc.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Apparently, the July 16, 1988 Wembley Show from the Bad Tour will be released next year.

I've seen countless numbers of posts along these lines and I get so excited over nothing. I've wanted ANY show from the Bad Tour released on DVD for years.

I just don't want to get all joyous about it yet .. It'll be a different story when I see something official like a release date, then I'll be counting down the days

Whoever said the newer songs aren't very good is right, although I feel bad admitting that. I think there should be a total cessation of new music release too, I agree with that. And I don't think old releases should get out either because obviously MJ probably wouldn't want that, hence them being unreleased in the first place; plus, with a lot of MJ's unreleased tracks, you can see that they were unreleased for a reason for the most part; MJ was one of those artists who really released all his best stuff.

Even when it comes to unreleased tracks that I do like alot, like "Carousel", I have to admit it's not exactly earth-shaking stuff and not really the best stuff he's ever done.

*completes post I would've gotten banned for at an MJ fan-forum*

Actually I got banned from just about all those forums for saying stuff alot like this... .

bboy87 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Apparently, the July 16, 1988 Wembley Show from the Bad Tour will be released next year.

[img:$uid]http://i52.tinypic.com/sxnno7.jpg[/img:$uid]

Where did you get the info? I read on MJJC and Max Jax that it was either going to be the July 14th one of the one from July 16 or a mix of both

I got it from Max Jax as well. One member who claims to have information from the estate and Sony has been saying that he's 99% sure of a 2012 release of the Wembley concert next year based on what he's heard from those who actually work at Sony. But yeah, he's also saying that it might be a mix of both concerts, but I'm hoping we get the full, unmolested copy of July 16.

armpit said:

Whoever said the newer songs aren't very good is right, although I feel bad admitting that. I think there should be a total cessation of new music release too, I agree with that. And I don't think old releases should get out either because obviously MJ probably wouldn't want that, hence them being unreleased in the first place; plus, with a lot of MJ's unreleased tracks, you can see that they were unreleased for a reason for the most part; MJ was one of those artists who really released all his best stuff.

Even when it comes to unreleased tracks that I do like alot, like "Carousel", I have to admit it's not exactly earth-shaking stuff and not really the best stuff he's ever done.

*completes post I would've gotten banned for at an MJ fan-forum*

Actually I got banned from just about all those forums for saying stuff alot like this... .

I don't really think so, songs like "best of joy " and "much too soon" are one of the best stuff really , and they remianed unreleased....

armpit said:

Whoever said the newer songs aren't very good is right, although I feel bad admitting that. I think there should be a total cessation of new music release too, I agree with that. And I don't think old releases should get out either because obviously MJ probably wouldn't want that, hence them being unreleased in the first place; plus, with a lot of MJ's unreleased tracks, you can see that they were unreleased for a reason for the most part; MJ was one of those artists who really released all his best stuff.

Even when it comes to unreleased tracks that I do like alot, like "Carousel", I have to admit it's not exactly earth-shaking stuff and not really the best stuff he's ever done.

*completes post I would've gotten banned for at an MJ fan-forum*

Actually I got banned from just about all those forums for saying stuff alot like this... .

I think there's potential of the more recent stuff. From the Michael album, Hollywood Tonight, Hold My Hand, and Best Of Joy are the only ones we've heard from his final sessions. Hearing that small snippet of "I Am A Loser" has me hoping they release it soon

For his unreleased stuff, it wasn't always about them being weak, sometimes they weren't on the album because they didn't fit that particular project and he felt it would work for another, that's the case for a couple of songs

Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' (originally for Off The Wall)

Liberian Girl (originally for Victory)

Someone Put Your Hand Out (originally for Bad)

Little Susie spent 14 years on the shelf until he put it on HIStory

Morphine, Is It Scary (originally for HIStory)

Superfly Sister and Blood On The Dancefloor (originally for Dangerous)

I get what you're saying, but I think we may get surprised down the road

bboy87 said:

armpit said:

Whoever said the newer songs aren't very good is right, although I feel bad admitting that. I think there should be a total cessation of new music release too, I agree with that. And I don't think old releases should get out either because obviously MJ probably wouldn't want that, hence them being unreleased in the first place; plus, with a lot of MJ's unreleased tracks, you can see that they were unreleased for a reason for the most part; MJ was one of those artists who really released all his best stuff.

Even when it comes to unreleased tracks that I do like alot, like "Carousel", I have to admit it's not exactly earth-shaking stuff and not really the best stuff he's ever done.

*completes post I would've gotten banned for at an MJ fan-forum*

Actually I got banned from just about all those forums for saying stuff alot like this... .

I think there's potential of the more recent stuff. From the Michael album, Hollywood Tonight, Hold My Hand, and Best Of Joy are the only ones we've heard from his final sessions. Hearing that small snippet of "I Am A Loser" has me hoping they release it soon

For his unreleased stuff, it wasn't always about them being weak, sometimes they weren't on the album because they didn't fit that particular project and he felt it would work for another, that's the case for a couple of songs

Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' (originally for Off The Wall)

Liberian Girl (originally for Victory)

Someone Put Your Hand Out (originally for Bad)

Little Susie spent 14 years on the shelf until he put it on HIStory

Morphine, Is It Scary (originally for HIStory)

Superfly Sister and Blood On The Dancefloor (originally for Dangerous)

I get what you're saying, but I think we may get surprised down the road

There'll be some gems, no doubt.

Streetwalker, Monkey Business, Someone Put Your Hand Out, On The Line, We've Had Enough... None of them made his regular studio albums but all good stuff.

I thought that Is It Scary was for the Addams Family film and that Ghosts was the track originally intended for History.

Cloudbuster said:

bboy87 said:

I think there's potential of the more recent stuff. From the Michael album, Hollywood Tonight, Hold My Hand, and Best Of Joy are the only ones we've heard from his final sessions. Hearing that small snippet of "I Am A Loser" has me hoping they release it soon

For his unreleased stuff, it wasn't always about them being weak, sometimes they weren't on the album because they didn't fit that particular project and he felt it would work for another, that's the case for a couple of songs

Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' (originally for Off The Wall)

Liberian Girl (originally for Victory)

Someone Put Your Hand Out (originally for Bad)

Little Susie spent 14 years on the shelf until he put it on HIStory

Morphine, Is It Scary (originally for HIStory)

Superfly Sister and Blood On The Dancefloor (originally for Dangerous)

I get what you're saying, but I think we may get surprised down the road

There'll be some gems, no doubt.

Streetwalker, Monkey Business, Someone Put Your Hand Out, On The Line, We've Had Enough... None of them made his regular studio albums but all good stuff.

Monkey Business was on Dangerous as was other songs he did with Bryan Loren (I think Man In Black was on it too), then he started the sessions with Teddy Riley and the songs he did with B Loren were cut

Behind The Mask wasn't on Thriller simply because of royalty issues with the original composers and they were already past the deadline

and the story of Much Too Soon.... wrote and recorded originally in 1981 for Thriller. Thriller took a different shape, didn't make the cut

fast forward to spring 1994, in New York and he tells them he wants to try a song, and he proceeds to re-record Much Too Soon. Just him and the guitar player. They finish, and the song is never brought up again

bboy87 said:

Cloudbuster said:

There'll be some gems, no doubt.

Streetwalker, Monkey Business, Someone Put Your Hand Out, On The Line, We've Had Enough... None of them made his regular studio albums but all good stuff.

Monkey Business was on Dangerous as was other songs he did with Bryan Loren (I think Man In Black was on it too), then he started the sessions with Teddy Riley and the songs he did with B Loren were cut

Behind The Mask wasn't on Thriller simply because of royalty issues with the original composers and they were already past the deadline

and the story of Much Too Soon.... wrote and recorded originally in 1981 for Thriller. Thriller took a different shape, didn't make the cut

fast forward to spring 1994, in New York and he tells them he wants to try a song, and he proceeds to re-record Much Too Soon. Just him and the guitar player. They finish, and the song is never brought up again

I'm glad John McClain salvaged it tho, it's a lovely song.

Joe Vogel has said that there's around 40-50 tracks that are worth releasing. Let's hope he's right.

Hey everyone, I've been reading this thread and the other one for quite some time and everything is just so interesting, but I got intrigued by BabyBeMine and her/his posts about MJ getting faded in the back seat of his limo, getting drunk and him getting a "yep yep" by a female many times...

wow, I never knew this side of MJ, but I'd really like to know more about that. When did that happen in the early 2000s, late 90s, were there other women MJ hung out with, where did he find these women, what other stories do you know about him and women?

[Edited 7/25/11 7:28am]

"yep yep"

http://home.michaelforeve.../home.html

[Edited 7/25/11 8:37am]

SparkInTheDark said:

Hey everyone, I've been reading this thread and the other one for quite some time and everything is just so interesting, but I got intrigued by BabyBeMine and her/his posts about MJ getting faded in the back seat of his limo, getting drunk and him getting a "yep yep" by a female many times...

wow, I never knew this side of MJ, but I'd really like to know more about that. When did that happen in the early 2000s, late 90s, were there other women MJ hung out with, where did he find these women, what other stories do you know about him and women?

[Edited 7/25/11 7:28am]

Have I missed something? Is it in this thread or the older one?

dag said:

SparkInTheDark said:

Hey everyone, I've been reading this thread and the other one for quite some time and everything is just so interesting, but I got intrigued by BabyBeMine and her/his posts about MJ getting faded in the back seat of his limo, getting drunk and him getting a "yep yep" by a female many times...

wow, I never knew this side of MJ, but I'd really like to know more about that. When did that happen in the early 2000s, late 90s, were there other women MJ hung out with, where did he find these women, what other stories do you know about him and women?

[Edited 7/25/11 7:28am]

Have I missed something? Is it in this thread or the older one?