EmeraldSkies said:

In my opinion Michael was very humble. There were alot of things he did for other people,and charities everywhere that he never broadcast about doing. He just did it,he did'nt feel the need to announce it to the world.

I'm more referring to the HIStory statues, the calling himself "king", songs like "Unbreakable" and "Threatened", live videos constantly showing fans fainting, "Brace Yourself" video, etc... I think he was a good person, but I know that many in the general public would definitely say he was very arrogant. Many have, actually.

To some it's arrogant, to some he was doing it for entertainment purposes. Does it matter anymore? And even if he was, well there's a lot of musicians who are like that then so it ain't like he was the only one. Plus he wasn't so different from anyone who grew up under a religion and was a "certain way" until they decided to not let religion affect how they do their music or how they entertain crowds.

The1592 said:

EmeraldSkies said:

In my opinion Michael was very humble. There were alot of things he did for other people,and charities everywhere that he never broadcast about doing. He just did it,he did'nt feel the need to announce it to the world.

I'm more referring to the HIStory statues, the calling himself "king", songs like "Unbreakable" and "Threatened", live videos constantly showing fans fainting, "Brace Yourself" video, etc... I think he was a good person, but I know that many in the general public would definitely say he was very arrogant. Many have, actually.

Utter rubbish from The1592...who wants to bet that this individual would be silent on the matter concerning other artists born with a lighter persuasion?

You know someone has to say this.

Is any one else totally fatigued and irritated by white / non black folk on the org commenting on black reality, black expression and the black experience as if they have authority on the matter?

They'll continue to do it because black folk are an easy target until they regain their former position and place in the world...

People of colour assert themselves, and it's called 'arrogant' to these people. Well then, I say more 'arrogance' is needed and much more besides...

Oh, but feel free to disagree with me folk, coz I really don't give a f**k on this one.

I long for the day when these people can just be ignored.

Until then expect to see more white whine.

.

funkyandy said:

The1592 said:

I'm more referring to the HIStory statues, the calling himself "king", songs like "Unbreakable" and "Threatened", live videos constantly showing fans fainting, "Brace Yourself" video, etc... I think he was a good person, but I know that many in the general public would definitely say he was very arrogant. Many have, actually.

Utter rubbish from The1592...who wants to bet that this individual would be silent on the matter concerning other artists born with a lighter persuasion?

You know someone has to say this.

Is any one else totally fatigued and irritated by white / non black folk on the org commenting on black reality, black expression and the black experience as if they have authority on the matter?

They'll continue to do it because black folk are an easy target until they regain their former position and place in the world...

People of colour assert themselves, and it's called 'arrogant' to these people. Well then, I say more 'arrogance' is needed and much more besides...

Oh, but feel free to disagree with me folk, coz I really don't give a f**k on this one.

I long for the day when these people can just be ignored.

Until then expect to see more white whine.

.

Whoa!! ..... what??? You must think I'm a troll, which I'm not. I originally was talking about Michael being a Jehovah's Witness, and asked if people thought that he might have led a better life had he stuck with that religion. I asked for people's thoughts on that, then I said that the a lot of the general public saw/sees him as arrogant.

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with race. Now you're trying to start trouble by calling me/implying that I'm racist.

[Edited 7/24/11 1:03am]

The1592 said:

funkyandy said:

Utter rubbish from The1592...who wants to bet that this individual would be silent on the matter concerning other artists born with a lighter persuasion?

You know someone has to say this.

Is any one else totally fatigued and irritated by white / non black folk on the org commenting on black reality, black expression and the black experience as if they have authority on the matter?

They'll continue to do it because black folk are an easy target until they regain their former position and place in the world...

People of colour assert themselves, and it's called 'arrogant' to these people. Well then, I say more 'arrogance' is needed and much more besides...

Oh, but feel free to disagree with me folk, coz I really don't give a f**k on this one.

I long for the day when these people can just be ignored.

Until then expect to see more white whine.

.

Whoa!! ..... what??? You must think I'm a troll, which I'm not. I originally was talking about Michael being a Jehovah's Witness, and asked if people thought that he might have led a better life had he stuck with that religion. I asked for people's thoughts on that, then I said that the a lot of the general public saw/sees him as arrogant.

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with race. Now you're trying to start trouble by calling me/implying that I'm racist.

[Edited 7/24/11 1:03am]

I implied nothing and called no one names. Just plain talk. The first sentence of my comment was addressing you. The remainder was to anyone of whom the cap fits.

If it doesn't apply to you, no reason to offended...as they say.

.

funkyandy said:

The1592 said:

Whoa!! ..... what??? You must think I'm a troll, which I'm not. I originally was talking about Michael being a Jehovah's Witness, and asked if people thought that he might have led a better life had he stuck with that religion. I asked for people's thoughts on that, then I said that the a lot of the general public saw/sees him as arrogant.

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with race. Now you're trying to start trouble by calling me/implying that I'm racist.

[Edited 7/24/11 1:03am]

I implied nothing and called no one names. Just plain talk. The first sentence of my comment was addressing you. The remainder was to anyone of whom the cap fits.

If it doesn't apply to you, no reason to offended...as they say.

.

The1592 said:

funkyandy said:

I implied nothing and called no one names. Just plain talk. The first sentence of my comment was addressing you. The remainder was to anyone of whom the cap fits.

If it doesn't apply to you, no reason to offended...as they say.

.

Ok, but adressing me in the first line, then bringing up the term 'arrogant' later in your post (a word I used) implied you were talking to me.

No worries Austin, you're a good guy...you have a courteous manner and I like the way you defend your honour. I understand where you were coming from, next time I will attempt to make my point more generally...instead of directing it at you.

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

The1592 said:

EmeraldSkies said:

In my opinion Michael was very humble. There were alot of things he did for other people,and charities everywhere that he never broadcast about doing. He just did it,he did'nt feel the need to announce it to the world.

I'm more referring to the HIStory statues, the calling himself "king", songs like "Unbreakable" and "Threatened", live videos constantly showing fans fainting, "Brace Yourself" video, etc... I think he was a good person, but I know that many in the general public would definitely say he was very arrogant. Many have, actually.

Whatever implicit arrogance Michael exhibited with his art, it is all warranted, in my opinion.

Besides, he never demonstrated any conceit/self-importance towards his fans, ever. To me, that completely overshadows all instances of the "yes, I'm the best" theme people believe he implied with those examples you've posted.

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

WaterInYourBath said:

The1592 said:

I'm more referring to the HIStory statues, the calling himself "king", songs like "Unbreakable" and "Threatened", live videos constantly showing fans fainting, "Brace Yourself" video, etc... I think he was a good person, but I know that many in the general public would definitely say he was very arrogant. Many have, actually.

Whatever implicit arrogance Michael exhibited with his art, it is all warranted, in my opinion.

Besides, he never demonstrated any conceit/self-importance towards his fans, ever. To me, that completely overshadows all instances of the "yes, I'm the best" theme people believe he implied with those examples you've posted.

Just to remind everyone what my original point was - I found an article [ This Article ] about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness, I wondered aloud if his "personal troubles" would have never occured had he stayed a witness, then I wondered aloud if he would have remained popular and "humble" had he stayed a witness. When I said he was viewed as arrogant, I meant to say that the general public didn't like his "I'm so bad" or "I'm so cool", "I'm the king of pop" etc. attitude that they felt he had, which is why I believe the public turned on him in the 1990s.

I was saying that Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't be allowed to call themselves "king" and have videos where people faint over them, as their religion frowns upon that type of behavior. I think the public would have liked Michael more if he were less "showy", and I think the fame eventually went to his head, which I don't think would have happened if he'd kept his strong faith.

btw, for the record, I'm not super religious, nor am I trying to push the JW religion on people. I'm just saying Michael seemed more peaceful and successful when he was a witness.

Now, perhaps it's time to move on and forget this discussion ever happened... I don't want to start any fights.

[Edited 7/24/11 1:57am]

The1592 said:

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

Personally, I'd like 7 albums of all new, previously unreleased music, but I know that's asking too much... I'm definitely not interested in remasters, as I think his albums still sound fine. Maybe a Bad tour live cd & dvd?

Thank you for the response I'm sending the estate's online team some ideas/concepts for releases fans would like to see and I'm revising some of them

bboy87 said:

The1592 said:

Personally, I'd like 7 albums of all new, previously unreleased music, but I know that's asking too much... I'm definitely not interested in remasters, as I think his albums still sound fine. Maybe a Bad tour live cd & dvd?

Thank you for the response I'm sending the estate's online team some ideas/concepts for releases fans would like to see and I'm revising some of them

Everybody I've talked to wants the Bad tour DVD (preferably a show from the 2nd leg - better setlist), but I'd like a CD of the show too. Also, a HIStory DVD would be nice, but since he often lip-synched, I wouldn't need a CD for that tour.

Edit: Also, I'd like to see more from the This Is It rehearsals. Like Dirty Diana, Heal The World, etc.. whatever other songs he rehearsed, and unedited. I thought the editing on the movie was awful, the way it kept switching from one rehersal to another. I'm sure they probably won't release this anytime soon, though..

[Edited 7/24/11 2:07am]

The1592 said:

bboy87 said:

Thank you for the response I'm sending the estate's online team some ideas/concepts for releases fans would like to see and I'm revising some of them

Everybody I've talked to wants the Bad tour DVD (preferably a show from the 2nd leg - better setlist), but I'd like a CD of the show too. Also, a HIStory DVD would be nice, but since he often lip-synched, I wouldn't need a CD for that tour.

Edit: Also, I'd like to see more from the This Is It rehearsals. Like Dirty Diana, Heal The World, etc.. whatever other songs he rehearsed, and unedited. I thought the editing on the movie was awful, the way it kept switching from one rehersal to another. I'm sure they probably won't release this anytime soon, though..

[Edited 7/24/11 2:07am]

A Bad Tour DVD is definitely one of the top 3 most wanted releases, especially one of the wembley shows or the last one in LA. Someone on MJJC and KOP mixed the first 2 or 3 shows and uploaded HQ snippets of the audio.

I'd like to see unreleased rehearsal footage, tours with the Jacksons and unreleased material

Michael has always stood out to me as being one the most humble artists out there, noticeably so, both during and after departure from the JWs...considering he was arguably the most famous person in the world, this is an achievement...

Can't think of one time...not even one, when he was 'showy' or arrogant off stage...not even on stage...not in any interviews, nothing, I've seen him frustrated over perceived injustice though.

The1592 said..."I'm so bad" or "I'm so cool", "I'm the king of pop" etc. attitude...and you keep saying the public and they are saying this and that..I say don't hide behind 'the public'...speak for yourself.

He was just performing in the sam.e way he's always done since he was a child.

Fans fainting is not Michaels responsibility!...videos showing it?...how about news footage showing it! MJ is not responsible, this is beyond his control. All part of showbusiness.

'Personal troubles' could just have began due to folk making false accusations, yanno?...his religion is a personal thing we can't judge how 'spiritual' or otherwise he was. Opinions are fine, we can throw 'em around all day...just wish folk would balance opinions with what is actually known. 'Fame went to his head', is a common phrase to throw around, so you're (or the public) are gonna need examples that aren't related to personal opinion? Why would you wish to forget the discussion ever happened? Who's fighting?!

[Edited 7/24/11 2:43am]

First of all why would anyone even bring it up when dude didn't even mention race anyways? All he thought was Michael was a little arrogant after leaving the Witnesses. No mention of race in his posts so I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Another reason why people hardly post in here anymore is because of people jumping to conclusions. Not directing it to you but just in general.

[Edited 7/24/11 4:36am]

The1592 said:

WaterInYourBath said:

Whatever implicit arrogance Michael exhibited with his art, it is all warranted, in my opinion.

Besides, he never demonstrated any conceit/self-importance towards his fans, ever. To me, that completely overshadows all instances of the "yes, I'm the best" theme people believe he implied with those examples you've posted.

Just to remind everyone what my original point was - I found an article [ This Article ] about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness, I wondered aloud if his "personal troubles" would have never occured had he stayed a witness, then I wondered aloud if he would have remained popular and "humble" had he stayed a witness. When I said he was viewed as arrogant, I meant to say that the general public didn't like his "I'm so bad" or "I'm so cool", "I'm the king of pop" etc. attitude that they felt he had, which is why I believe the public turned on him in the 1990s.

I was saying that Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't be allowed to call themselves "king" and have videos where people faint over them, as their religion frowns upon that type of behavior. I think the public would have liked Michael more if he were less "showy", and I think the fame eventually went to his head, which I don't think would have happened if he'd kept his strong faith.

btw, for the record, I'm not super religious, nor am I trying to push the JW religion on people. I'm just saying Michael seemed more peaceful and successful when he was a witness.

Now, perhaps it's time to move on and forget this discussion ever happened... I don't want to start any fights.

[Edited 7/24/11 1:57am]

Yeah to be honest though I don't know if he would've remained in the JW's, he struggled to stay in it as long as he had. I guess he finally snapped when he realized that all the things he felt a childhood required, he said "fuck it" and left. He did seem "peaceful" but then again dude also had demons, I guess during that time the religion DID clear his head up but who knows?

Anyway, back to the music/entertainment, Sony and the estate needs to stop bullshitting and release that BAD DVD or whatever.

My original post was about an article I found that talked about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness. My poor choice of words led to the conversation shifting to whether Michael was "humble" or not. Many do feel that Michael was arrogant, and one example is the 1996 BRIT Awards Incident where a singer protested Michael's Earth Song performance because they were offended by him acting like a 'Christ-like figure' (their words, not mine).

Either way, that's never what I was trying to talk about. I was trying to ask people's opinions about how Michael's JW religion, and losing his religion affected his life, based on the article I posted. Since that aspect of my post didn't seem to interest anyone, I figured it'd be best to just drop it, but I want to state for the record that I was not trying to insult Michael in any way. I was only saying that his public image started getting damaged shortly after he left the Witnesses, and asking if people thought the two things were connected, as the article I posted made it sound like Michael's religion was largely responsible for keeping him out of trouble for most of his young life.

The1592 said:

My original post was about an article I found that talked about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness. My poor choice of words led to the conversation shifting to whether Michael was "humble" or not. Many do feel that Michael was arrogant, and one example is the 1996 BRIT Awards Incident where a singer protested Michael's Earth Song performance because they were offended by him acting like a 'Christ-like figure' (their words, not mine).

Either way, that's never what I was trying to talk about. I was trying to ask people's opinions about how Michael's JW religion, and losing his religion affected his life, based on the article I posted. Since that aspect of my post didn't seem to interest anyone, I figured it'd be best to just drop it, but I want to state for the record that I was not trying to insult Michael in any way. I was only saying that his public image started getting damaged shortly after he left the Witnesses, and asking if people thought the two things were connected, as the article I posted made it sound like Michael's religion was largely responsible for keeping him out of trouble for most of his young life.

I think I kinda get what you was getting at... But nah I think he was at peace anyways. He always had strong faith in God whatever religion he went to. To be honest his image was tested a few times DURING the Witnesses era. It only got crazy just due to media antics, initially by him to cause hype and then by tabloids who did everything in their power to make Michael out to be a freak when he wasn't. I'm amazed how cool and calm Michael was with all this madness. You'd think with all the craziness that surrounded him in later years that he might've did an irate cursive tirade like Whitney did on Wendy Williams that one time.

And dude, no need to apologize, I know your intentions wasn't to insult Michael.

The1592 said:

My original post was about an article I found that talked about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness. My poor choice of words led to the conversation shifting to whether Michael was "humble" or not. Many do feel that Michael was arrogant, and one example is the 1996 BRIT Awards Incident where a singer protested Michael's Earth Song performance because they were offended by him acting like a 'Christ-like figure' (their words, not mine).

Yeah, Jarvis Cocker. I actually quite like Cocker but he was a massive hypocrite about that MJ performance. To me it was simply a piece of theatre, definately the most entertaining performance of the evening even if somewhat slack by MJ's usual standards.

My beef with Cocker was simply that while he criticised Mike for his messianic grandstanding, Cocker himself came down from the rafters on wires for his own performance. Pot meet kettle.

Of course, no-one commented on that as "Jacko-bashing" was at its most rife at that time.

The1592 said:

It seems like a strict religion might have kept him humble and "normal", and maybe things wouldn't have went so bad for him.

Interesting subject. I personally have always felt that religion was like a burden to MJ and didn't permit him to fully express himself artistically, wich is very sad. I mean, when there was so much criticism from the JW towards MJ regarding a simple video, Thriller, then someone understand what kind of pressure that faith had on him. A negative one, if you ask me. Look at Prine for example. His best music came during the "non JW" period, in my opinion. So, for me Mike did well for abandoning that church and he should have done it earlier.

Just to remind everyone what my original point was - I found an article [ This Article ] about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness, I wondered aloud if his "personal troubles" would have never occured had he stayed a witness,

His personal troubles began in his early age when his father would beat the hell out of him, make fan of his appearance and then take him and his brothers to strip clubs to perform and then his mother would take him to the church and trying to make him a good Christian . Mike grew up in a house with two polar apart different parents. A very promiscuous one and a very religious one. I truly believe that that confused him very much. His parents are very much to be blamed for Mike’s personal demons. Both his mother and father. His father introduced him in night-show business life with everything that that includes while his mother and her church would later tell him that what he would do as a performer and artist was a sin. When you have his mother accepting expensive gifs for her birthday party in common bags, because of her religion, that Is a total hypocrisy. This is the environment that MJ grew up. In a total hypocritical and confusing environment with confusing messages coming from the two people who were supposed to guide him in life. On, the other hand, I truly believe that the JW religion suffocated him and confused even more. When you have the JW preaching peace and harmony and then telling him that he couldn’t speak to his sister because she stopped visiting the church or telling him what to do as an artist and criticism him for stupid things like a fake video, I mean what is that? No wonder Mike was so confussed about everything, no wonder he would feel guilty and crying because he dared to enjoy a birthday party or Christmas party.

I truly believe that all those plastic surgeries and that bizarre life stile was like him giving the finger to society all those people that used him from such a very young age for money or fame, told him what to do or not and suffocated him during his life time.

[Edited 7/24/11 6:24am]

I'm always going back and forth in general over whether religion burdens people, or how people's interpretation being imposed on those vulnerable does that, I think it's the latter in most cases. I can imagine the two polar opposites being very hard on him, or on anyone else as well.

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

All unreleased music and demo's from 1976-2009 left untouched on one boxed set. Include Will.I.Am tracks.

Thanks.

bboy87 said:

Since this thread is going in an unexpected direction....

I wanted to know what do you guys think should be released by the Estate and Sony. They have about 7 more releases in the deal. What would you like to see released?

1. Bad Tour (duh)

I would love to see a Victory tour, but I think that would count as more of a Jacksons thing.

2. Another album

Sometime this year or early next year with legit MJ songs and not ones where we have to question the vocals.

3. Moonwalker HD DVD with extras and the behind the scenes/making of.

Cloudbuster said:

The1592 said:

My original post was about an article I found that talked about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness. My poor choice of words led to the conversation shifting to whether Michael was "humble" or not. Many do feel that Michael was arrogant, and one example is the 1996 BRIT Awards Incident where a singer protested Michael's Earth Song performance because they were offended by him acting like a 'Christ-like figure' (their words, not mine).

Yeah, Jarvis Cocker. I actually quite like Cocker but he was a massive hypocrite about that MJ performance. To me it was simply a piece of theatre, definately the most entertaining performance of the evening even if somewhat slack by MJ's usual standards.

My beef with Cocker was simply that while he criticised Mike for his messianic grandstanding, Cocker himself came down from the rafters on wires for his own performance. Pot meet kettle.

Of course, no-one commented on that as "Jacko-bashing" was at its most rife at that time.

That was quite a low moment for him lol

mjscarousal said:

I'm trying to figure out why would someone say Michael was arrogant? He was the complete opposite, very humble. Always went out of his way to help others and didnt tell anybody. He was humble when it game down to his status as well. Obviously, all you have to do is read a bunch of Beyonce interviews and that is someone who defines arrogance perfectly.

Me neither. Sure, that whole History compaign can definately be viewed as him being arrogant, but as a person, I never percieved him that way. He seemed quite the opposite, always too kind, nice and humble.

Cloudbuster said:

The1592 said:

My original post was about an article I found that talked about Michael's time as a Jehovah's Witness. My poor choice of words led to the conversation shifting to whether Michael was "humble" or not. Many do feel that Michael was arrogant, and one example is the 1996 BRIT Awards Incident where a singer protested Michael's Earth Song performance because they were offended by him acting like a 'Christ-like figure' (their words, not mine).

Yeah, Jarvis Cocker. I actually quite like Cocker but he was a massive hypocrite about that MJ performance. To me it was simply a piece of theatre, definately the most entertaining performance of the evening even if somewhat slack by MJ's usual standards.

My beef with Cocker was simply that while he criticised Mike for his messianic grandstanding, Cocker himself came down from the rafters on wires for his own performance. Pot meet kettle.

Of course, no-one commented on that as "Jacko-bashing" was at its most rife at that time.

It's funny how he later said that he went on stage because he was pretending to be Jesus when he went on before that happened.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Cloudbuster said:

Yeah, Jarvis Cocker. I actually quite like Cocker but he was a massive hypocrite about that MJ performance. To me it was simply a piece of theatre, definately the most entertaining performance of the evening even if somewhat slack by MJ's usual standards.

My beef with Cocker was simply that while he criticised Mike for his messianic grandstanding, Cocker himself came down from the rafters on wires for his own performance. Pot meet kettle.

Of course, no-one commented on that as "Jacko-bashing" was at its most rife at that time.

It's funny how he later said that he went on stage because he was pretending to be Jesus when he went on before that happened.

That too.