NaughtyKitty said:

NaughtyKitty said:

What do you guys think Michael's life would have been like if he had never recorded Thriller? I've often wondered about how different his life would have been. I'm sure he'd still perform and record, but perhaps without the crushing, crazy, isolating fame it brought maybe he would've had a happier, free-er existence? Thriller was a tremendous blessing for him, but sometimes it seems like it was a kind of a curse for him as well. Thoughts?

[Edited 7/7/11 13:54pm]

Well? Anyone?

I think Michael was bred to equate number 1 with worth. Regardless of whether or not he would have made Thriller, he would have still strived to achieve being bigger that he was at the OTW stage.

As you say Thriller was a blessing and a curse for him. When someone is THAT successful, everything else you do that doesn't equal it (an no one has) will always be seen as failure, in your own eyes and in the eyes of critics - despite the fact he was still outselling in most instance and selling comparable in later years with the acts lauded by the press at the time.

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

HECK no.

Swa said:

Again you demonstrate your inability to apologise. You asked for me to point out where you were disrespectful and I did. Yet you can't even say "ok, I was out of line with that".

Didn't realize you were looking for an apology. I thought by pointing out that you seem to have misunderstood the intentions of my words, that we were good. I'm not sure if I was "out of line," certainly no more out of line than when other here have told me to fuck of, jump off a cliff, etc. But if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.

What I was debating with you is that you seem to link Prolific with Ability. And again this is just your opinion. What you seem to be equating is Prolific with released Output. Even your own research into the Bad, Dangerous, HIStory etc would show that Michael would write, demo, finish many songs and then whittle them down - figuring out which songs to focus on and which finally made the release.

Yes, it's my opinion that ability to create is related to prolificness. I guess we disagree.

As for your obvious This Is It bait, coming from someone who admits hasn't watched it, I won't enter into a discussion you are obviously not qualified to debate it.

No "bait" intended. As I said earlier, I'm watching the Blu-ray this weekend and hope to see some amazing live performances, given that the (already delayed) first show was only 3 weeks away when he died. I simply mention it in the context that "what would have been," "what could have been," has no real relevance, and is best left to the "Fan Fiction" section I spotted on one of the Jackson boards I saw this morning, (when asked by a member here to check it out.)

As for future discussions, until you can post with respect, I don't see why any of us should bother giving you the respect of responding to you.

I'm fine with that, and don't ask for your respect. I also mean you no disrespect. You seem nice enough, and as far as I know, you haven't told me to fuck off, etc. although it's hard to keep track. Again, if I truly hurt your feelings in any way, it was not my intention, and I'm sorry.

Imaginative said:

I suspect that once you learn the true origins and Jackson's actual contribution (seek out the earlier versions, and it speaks for itself)

You do know that Michael is credited as co-writer for the Eric Clapton and Greg Phillinganes versions, right? The original version did not included lyrics for the verses and chorus - Michael wrote that. I think that writing 75% of the lyrics, and adding new music counts as co-writing a song.

And might I add that The Beatles covered many songs. Does that mean they didn't make quality music? If you say yes, I'd think you're insane. If you say no, then I'd like to know why Michael covering 3* songs throughout his adult career means he couldn't make quality music?

*Not counting Behind The Mask (released after his death), the three I come up with are: Girlfriend, Come Together, Smile

Also, might I add that you thanked someone for turning you on to "Behind The Mask", yet you previously stated that the Michael album was not quality material. How would you know if you hadn't heard all (or perhaps any) of the songs?

Finally, please do not view me as an 'insane Jacko fan' - I am not someone who would defend anything he did, he's not even my favorite artist... but I think you're much too critical of him, and you don't always get your facts straight, such as...

from Off The Wall onward, he wrote at least 35 of his songs solely by himself. This is not counting songs he wrote for others, songs he wrote for The Jacksons, or songs that have been legally unreleased (bootlegged), yet you've stated "18 songs" over and over, even after someone made you a list showing more than 18 songs he wrote. If you'd like, I'll do the research, make you a list and properly cite it, if you'd like proof that he can write songs. Might I also add that if co-writing songs doesn't count, neither Paul McCartney nor John Lennon would ever make a best songwriters list.

Also, might I ask you to list some of the songs post-Thriller, even post-Bad that you liked (if any), and also, if you could list some songs post-Bad that you didn't like. I don't want to insult you, but I'd just like to see if you actually listened to Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible, since you've insulted the quality of his output from the last 25 years, but I don't recall you ever mentioning a single song by name from any of those albums.

Edit: Please forgive me if anything I said has already been said. This thread is way too long to read all of it.

Edit #2: I'm sorry for abusing the words "might I also add". I didn't realize I said it like four times, and it might come off as rude.

[Edited 7/7/11 19:26pm]

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

Not really, but if you hear Destiny, you hear hints of what would become OTW. I think Workin' Day And Night was written for Destiny but he held on to it until the OTW sessions

smoothcriminal12 said:

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

HECK no.

Why not? I could easliy see Michael and his brother singing alot of the songs on there.

babybugz said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

HECK no.

Why not? I could easliy see Michael and his brother singing alot of the songs on there.

It has a much different sound than Destiny, and I prefer Michael singing it alone rather than with his brothers.

Michael would've been so proud...

[Edited 7/7/11 19:13pm]

bboy87 said:

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

Not really, but if you hear Destiny, you hear hints of what would become OTW. I think Workin' Day And Night was written for Destiny but he held on to it until the OTW sessions

That’s what I mean thank you for putting it in better wording. Rock with You, Don’t Stop, Working Day and Night...Get on the floor. It’s not hard for me to see them singing it.

The1592 said:

Imaginative said:

I suspect that once you learn the true origins and Jackson's actual contribution (seek out the earlier versions, and it speaks for itself)

You do know that Michael is credited as co-writer for the Eric Clapton and Greg Phillinganes versions, right? The original version did not included lyrics for the verses and chorus - Michael wrote that. I think that writing 75% of the lyrics, and adding new music counts as co-writing a song.

And might I add that The Beatles covered many songs. Does that mean they didn't make quality music? If you say yes, I'd think you're insane. If you say no, then I'd like to know why Michael covering 3 songs* throughout his adult career means he couldn't make quality music?

*Not counting Behind The Mask (released after his death), the three I come up with are: Girlfriend, Come Together, Smile

Also, might I add that you thanked someone for turning you on to "Behind The Mask", yet you previously stated that the Michael album was not quality material. How would you know if you hadn't hear all (or perhaps any) of the songs?

Finally, please do not view me as an 'insane Jacko fan' - I am not someone who would defend anything he did, he's not even my favorite artist... but I think you're much too critical of him, and you don't always get your facts straight, such as...

from Off The Wall onward, he wrote at least 35 of his songs solely by himself. This is not counting songs he wrote for others, songs he wrote for The Jacksons, or songs that have been legally unreleased (bootlegged), yet you've stated "18 songs" over and over, even after someone made you a list showing more than 18 songs he wrote. If you'd like, I'll do the research, make you a list and properly cite it, if you'd like proof that he can write songs. Might I also add that if co-writing songs doesn't count, neither Paul McCartney nor John Lennon would ever make a best songwriters list.

Also, might I ask you to list some of the songs post-Thriller, even post-Bad that you liked (if any), and also, if you could list some songs post-Bad that you didn't like. I don't want to insult you, but I'd just like to see if you actually listened to Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible, since you've insulted the quality of his output from the last 25 years, but I don't recall you ever mentioning a single song by name from any of those albums.

Edit: Please forgive me if anything I said has already been said. This thread is way too long to read all of it.

[Edited 7/7/11 19:09pm]

Don't forget She's Out of My Life. I think that was also a cover

bboy87 said:

The1592 said:

You do know that Michael is credited as co-writer for the Eric Clapton and Greg Phillinganes versions, right? The original version did not included lyrics for the verses and chorus - Michael wrote that. I think that writing 75% of the lyrics, and adding new music counts as co-writing a song.

And might I add that The Beatles covered many songs. Does that mean they didn't make quality music? If you say yes, I'd think you're insane. If you say no, then I'd like to know why Michael covering 3 songs* throughout his adult career means he couldn't make quality music?

*Not counting Behind The Mask (released after his death), the three I come up with are: Girlfriend, Come Together, Smile

Also, might I add that you thanked someone for turning you on to "Behind The Mask", yet you previously stated that the Michael album was not quality material. How would you know if you hadn't hear all (or perhaps any) of the songs?

Finally, please do not view me as an 'insane Jacko fan' - I am not someone who would defend anything he did, he's not even my favorite artist... but I think you're much too critical of him, and you don't always get your facts straight, such as...

from Off The Wall onward, he wrote at least 35 of his songs solely by himself. This is not counting songs he wrote for others, songs he wrote for The Jacksons, or songs that have been legally unreleased (bootlegged), yet you've stated "18 songs" over and over, even after someone made you a list showing more than 18 songs he wrote. If you'd like, I'll do the research, make you a list and properly cite it, if you'd like proof that he can write songs. Might I also add that if co-writing songs doesn't count, neither Paul McCartney nor John Lennon would ever make a best songwriters list.

Also, might I ask you to list some of the songs post-Thriller, even post-Bad that you liked (if any), and also, if you could list some songs post-Bad that you didn't like. I don't want to insult you, but I'd just like to see if you actually listened to Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible, since you've insulted the quality of his output from the last 25 years, but I don't recall you ever mentioning a single song by name from any of those albums.

Edit: Please forgive me if anything I said has already been said. This thread is way too long to read all of it.

[Edited 7/7/11 19:09pm]

Don't forget She's Out of My Life. I think that was also a cover

And Girlfriend.

bboy87 said:

The1592 said:

(Too much stuff to bother reposting)

Don't forget She's Out of My Life. I think that was also a cover

Was it? I know he didn't write it, but I wasn't aware of anyone releasing it before him. I could be wrong, though.

babybugz said:

bboy87 said:

Not really, but if you hear Destiny, you hear hints of what would become OTW. I think Workin' Day And Night was written for Destiny but he held on to it until the OTW sessions

That’s what I mean thank you for putting it in better wording. Rock with You, Don’t Stop, Working Day and Night...Get on the floor. It’s not hard for me to see them singing it.

I think the brothers' plan for Triumph was to make group version of Off The Wall. Everybody sounds like a cooled down version of Get On The Floor, Time Waits For No One sounds like a bigger She's Out Of My Life, Lovely One reminds me of Workin' Day And Night

smoothcriminal12 said:

bboy87 said:

Don't forget She's Out of My Life. I think that was also a cover

And Girlfriend.

Girlfriend was already mentioned

bboy87 said:

babybugz said:

That’s what I mean thank you for putting it in better wording. Rock with You, Don’t Stop, Working Day and Night...Get on the floor. It’s not hard for me to see them singing it.

I think the brothers' plan for Triumph was to make group version of Off The Wall. Everybody sounds like a cooled down version of Get On The Floor, Time Waits For No One sounds like a bigger She's Out Of My Life, Lovely One reminds me of Workin' Day And Night

Of course and it worked imo...Triumph is the bridge between Off The Wall and Thriller.

Imaginative said:

No "bait" intended. As I said earlier, I'm watching the Blu-ray this weekend and hope to see some amazing live performances, given that the (already delayed) first show was only 3 weeks away when he died. I simply mention it in the context that "what would have been," "what could have been," has no real relevance, and is best left to the "Fan Fiction" section I spotted on one of the Jackson boards I saw this morning, (when asked by a member here to check it out.)

I wouldn't bother with This Is It. As a hardcore fan, I can tell you it's no good. Not so much that MJ couldn't perform, but more so that the movie is poorly edited, and much of the performance footage shows him during the earlier rehearsals. They try to make it into a behind the scenes movie, rather than a concert movie. I don't think you'll like it.

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

It might've been. Only because I believe this was the album that caused Michael's brothers to be jealous. I know one or two of them went to him and said "you know we could've been on that album if you asked us to." And because it proved he could do it on his own, it made them upset. I truly believe that.

babybugz said:

bboy87 said:

I think the brothers' plan for Triumph was to make group version of Off The Wall. Everybody sounds like a cooled down version of Get On The Floor, Time Waits For No One sounds like a bigger She's Out Of My Life, Lovely One reminds me of Workin' Day And Night

Of course and it worked imo...Triumph is the bridge between Off The Wall and Thriller.

I love Triumph. I may be in the minority, but I think Time Waits For No One is better than She's Out Of My Life

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

It might've been. Only because I believe this was the album that caused Michael's brothers to be jealous. I know one or two of them went to him and said "you know we could've been on that album if you asked us to." And because it proved he could do it on his own, it made them upset. I truly believe that.

The start of the tension started earlier than that. Remember that phone call that Katherine got from either they're lawyers or the Epic saying she should tell the brothers to save their money because they wanted Michael to go solo? Plus he was working on songs for a solo project before he even started working with Quincy

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

Anyone feel that Off The Wall could have been a Jackson’s album.

It might've been. Only because I believe this was the album that caused Michael's brothers to be jealous. I know one or two of them went to him and said "you know we could've been on that album if you asked us to." And because it proved he could do it on his own, it made them upset. I truly believe that.

That is possible I just feel the ideas Michael had for his solo album could have been for them at one point too. I’m not saying all the songs sound exactly like previous Jackson’s records just it’s not impossible to picture them singing some of those songs. And then for them to make an easier transition into triumph it’s possible.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

It might've been. Only because I believe this was the album that caused Michael's brothers to be jealous. I know one or two of them went to him and said "you know we could've been on that album if you asked us to." And because it proved he could do it on his own, it made them upset. I truly believe that.

That is possible I just feel the ideas Michael had for his solo album could have been for them at one point too. I’m not saying all the songs sound exactly like previous Jackson’s records just it’s not impossible to picture them singing some of those songs. And then for them to make an easier transition into triumph it’s possible.

Don't forget he was writing songs from Triumph while he was on the Destiny Tour AND recording Off The Wall

bboy87 said:

babybugz said:

Of course and it worked imo...Triumph is the bridge between Off The Wall and Thriller.

I love Triumph. I may be in the minority, but I think Time Waits For No One is better than She's Out Of My Life

It is!! I think every Michael fan should have triumph even if it is a Jackson’s project. It’s an important album in my opinion.

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

It might've been. Only because I believe this was the album that caused Michael's brothers to be jealous. I know one or two of them went to him and said "you know we could've been on that album if you asked us to." And because it proved he could do it on his own, it made them upset. I truly believe that.

The start of the tension started earlier than that. Remember that phone call that Katherine got from either they're lawyers or the Epic saying she should tell the brothers to save their money because they wanted Michael to go solo? Plus he was working on songs for a solo project before he even started working with Quincy

True but it was building up... I think Off the Wall finally broke the straw off the camel's back as far as the Jackson brothers' growing jealousy against Michael and his success.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

It might've been. Only because I believe this was the album that caused Michael's brothers to be jealous. I know one or two of them went to him and said "you know we could've been on that album if you asked us to." And because it proved he could do it on his own, it made them upset. I truly believe that.

That is possible I just feel the ideas Michael had for his solo album could have been for them at one point too. I’m not saying all the songs sound exactly like previous Jackson’s records just it’s not impossible to picture them singing some of those songs. And then for them to make an easier transition into triumph it’s possible.

Get on the Floor, Don't Stop, Working Day and Night and Burn This Disco Out were obviously worked on with Michael and family members (particularly Randy). And it's possible they could've been possible Jacksons songs but either Michael or Quincy thought it was suitable with just Michael in it.

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

The start of the tension started earlier than that. Remember that phone call that Katherine got from either they're lawyers or the Epic saying she should tell the brothers to save their money because they wanted Michael to go solo? Plus he was working on songs for a solo project before he even started working with Quincy

True but it was building up... I think Off the Wall finally broke the straw off the camel's back as far as the Jackson brothers' growing jealousy against Michael and his success.

Randy was involved in the demos so I wonder how he felt. DSTYGE and Working Day And Night were registered under Miran Publishing, which was owned by Michael and Randy so he got a hunk of change from those songs

babybugz said:

bboy87 said:

I love Triumph. I may be in the minority, but I think Time Waits For No One is better than She's Out Of My Life

It is!! I think every Michael fan should have triumph even if it is a Jackson’s project. It’s an important album in my opinion.

IMHO Triumph sounded more Michael-esque than Jacksons-esque. Except for "Wondering Who", "Your Ways" and "Give It Up", most of the songs sounded like songs Michael had done himself and his brothers eventually decided to record them with him. "Time Waits for No One" is a great ballad. I believe Jackie wrote that one with Randy.

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

True but it was building up... I think Off the Wall finally broke the straw off the camel's back as far as the Jackson brothers' growing jealousy against Michael and his success.

Randy was involved in the demos so I wonder how he felt. DSTYGE and Working Day And Night were registered under Miran Publishing, which was owned by Michael and Randy so he got a hunk of change from those songs

Exactly. Like I mentioned those songs definitely had input from at least Randy. Who knows how he felt about it? Maybe when the checks for the songs came in, he was glad to get a paycheck especially since OTW sold that many records.

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

Randy was involved in the demos so I wonder how he felt. DSTYGE and Working Day And Night were registered under Miran Publishing, which was owned by Michael and Randy so he got a hunk of change from those songs

Exactly. Like I mentioned those songs definitely had input from at least Randy. Who knows how he felt about it? Maybe when the checks for the songs came in, he was glad to get a paycheck especially since OTW sold that many records.

Probably.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

Exactly. Like I mentioned those songs definitely had input from at least Randy. Who knows how he felt about it? Maybe when the checks for the songs came in, he was glad to get a paycheck especially since OTW sold that many records.

Probably.

And the only thing the other brothers could do was complain lol they were probably more angry at Randy than Michael because they got to write together while Jackie, Marlon and Tito, while having their own publishing companies, never wrote anything that screamed hit (Marlon was the only one who came close with Janet lol).