bboy87 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I don't think it was the music, but it probably was about him being too lazy to want to go through the whole process of releasing an album, making videos, doing a world tour, etc. He never sped through albums, like Prince, he wanted to make each album an era. Probably because of the sales he could get. The more you stretch out an album, the more sales you get, and we all know that Michael was a sales whore.

it was more about fleshing a project out. The Bad era wasn't just about the album, it was the videos, the tours, the singles, Moonwalk, Moonwalker, and the look

If you think about it, he would promote an album for at least 2 or 3 years, then would retreat and then work on the next album

He promoted Thriller from late 1982 to late 1984, spent 1985 to 1987 making Bad, EO, and doing deals. Promoted back from 1987 to early 1989 promoting Bad, then spent 1989-1991 making Dangerous, for example

I remember it well. I was in High School at the time. We didn't use the word "promote" back then. We used the word, "milk."

No matter which way you cut it, the end result is the same; regardless of the quality of material, Jackson was simply not prolific as an artist. By my count, he wrote and released a total of 18 songs by himself in the 30 years following Off the Wall.

Even if somehow another 12 songs were released from the vaults, and they were all bonafide classics up to the standard of Billie Jean and written solely by Jackson, he would still only be capable of writing an average of one song per year. If he could write more material by himself, don't you think he would have?

I think this is intentional. As the material got weaker and weaker, he consistently used theatrical slight-of-hand to distract audiences from the weakness of the material.

[Edited 7/5/11 18:58pm]

Imaginative said:

bboy87 said:

I remember it well. I was in High School at the time. We didn't use the word "promote" back then. We used the word, "milk."

No matter which way you cut it, the end result is the same; regardless of the quality of material, Jackson was simply not prolific as an artist. By my count, he wrote and released a total of 18 songs by himself in the 30 years following Off the Wall.

Even if somehow another 12 songs were released from the vaults, and they were all bonafide classics up to the standard of Billie Jean and written solely by Jackson, he would still only be capable of writing an average of one song per year. If he could write more material by himself, don't you think he would have?

smoothcriminal12 said:

That's true. He wasn't just about the music - everything had to be an extravagent show, which is quite sad, because it takes away from the real focus - the music.

I think this is intentional. As the material got weaker and weaker, he consistently used theatrical slight-of-hand to distract audiences from the weakness of the material.

[Edited 7/5/11 18:58pm]

I don't think anyone is debating whether he was prolific. It's obvious he wasn't. After Thriller, he'd wait 3-5 years between albums

The number of songs he wrote alone is a bit incorrect

Off The Wall-

Don't Stop Til You Get Enough

Working Day And Night

Thriller

Wanna Be Startin' Somethin

The Girl Is Mine

Beat It

Billie Jean

Bad-

Bad

The Way You Make Me Feel

Speed Demon

Liberian Girl

Another Part Of Me

I Just Can't Stop Loving You

Dirty Diana

Smooth Criminal

Leave Me Alone

Dangerous-

Heal The World

Who Is It

Black Or White (he wrote the song, Bill Bottrell wrote the rap section)

Will You Be There

HIStory-

They Don't Care About Us

Stranger In Moscow

Earth Song

DS

Money

Childhood

Little Susie

Blood On The Dancefloor-

Morphine

Invincible-

Speechless

The Lost Children

Songs that were later released on compilations and reissues

Sunset Driver

Beautiful Girl

The Way You Love Me

then the Jacksons albums with songs like Heartbreak Hotel and songs he wrote for other people

Muscles for Diana Ross

Night Time Lover for LaToya Jackson

Centipede for Rebbie Jackson

with songs that were a collaborative effort like We Are The World, Tabloid Junkie, HIStory, Get On The Floor, Remember The Time, Can't Let Her Get Away, Give In To Me, Dangerous, the scenario would be Michael would write the lyrics and come up with the basic lyrics, then someone like Teddy Riley would add the arrangement then they'd go from there

Louis Johnson had the bass groove for Get On The Floor then after Michael heard it, wrote lyrics to it

and I personally don't think the material got weaker, but that's up for opinion

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html

I worked with Michael on many occasions...first in 1979 shortly following the release of "Off The Wall", which was recorded at my old studio, Image Recording, when it was owned by its former owner, Allen Zentz.

I then spent some time in 1980 (or 81?) with Michael recording demo's for Thriller. This was great, because it was just the two of us and whoever Michael had coming in. "John, we have Jonathan Moffit coming at 12:00, then Greg Phillinganes at 1:00...oh, and we're recording strings at 4:00!". Wow, what a great experience working so closely with him. I had him on the mic for some days recording vocals, and it was an amazing experience...he would be dancing up a storm while singing and doing all of those "grunts, oohs, ahhs" vocal sounds that would pepper his tracks. He asked me to take up the carpet so he could dance, and in between takes, he would sing other popular songs of the day just freestyle and acapella and we would talk about the music we liked.

Over the next year or two, I hosted the Jacksons many times, recording various tracks, claps (we had a jacuzzi room which they loved to use for the massive white-noise claps that people liked back then). I got to know all the brothers.

Bruce Swedien came back to Image Recording to record a song (or two?) for the Jackson's "Victory" record in about 1983. Another great experience, as Bruce did (as I recall) a string quartet and (perhaps) Michael's vocal at the same time. Bruce IS the best of all time, by the way. BEST.

I believe there were a couple of sundry Jacksons sessions over the next couple of years, but by that time, Michael was hugely popular and I didn't see him as much. The next time was really in 1995, when Robmix and I worked on the HIStory album. Rob worked on this for quite a long time (2 years?), while I worked on it for a few months. We were all holed up in Larrabee North, where Bruce had a room (or were you guys at Record One, Rob?)...Eddie Delena was recording quite a lot Michael's vocals at Larrabee in one room, and I was put in another room to engineer for whomever needed it...my most memorable session being some days with Dallas Austin and on one day, recording The Notorious B.I.G. for his rap on "This Time Around". There I was, standing in a room with Dallas, Biggie and Michael. I'll never forget it.

The final days of that album were made interesting, by Bruce giving me the task to sequence the album and edit it down to a size that we could fit onto a CD. This was no small undertaking, as about 7 minutes needed to be trimmed somewhere. I laid this all out in Sound Tools and came to know every bar of every song very intimately. I found places where songs could be tightened up and came up with many suggestions. On the night of mastering, I was put in a room at Bernie Grundman's with my Sound Tools rig, and in this room, I would have to "negotiate" with Michael about what to take out. I'll never forget this night...Michael came in, and Bruce told MJ that we would have to remove either 1) one whole song or 2) edit the others to fit onto a CD. We chose the latter...I started with song one and played Michael my edits, "Oh no, we can't take THAT out...it's my favorite part of the album!". OK. Let's try another, "Oh no, we MUST keep those four bars". OK...let's go to the vamp, which carries on for two minutes...how about removing these eight bars, "Oh no, that's my favorite part of the vamp!". Well, you get the picture. Meanwhile, Jimmy Jam was in with us, telling Michael that all these edits were killer and actually make things better. And over the course of about 5 hours, we got it down. By this time, it was probably 3:00am, and I was wiped out. Bruce walked in..."Okay, John, I want you to make all these edits on the 1/2" masters right now!". My first thought was, "You've GOT to be kidding!" I had used some crossfades in Tools and such, plus I was worn out from "bartering" with Michael. But, into Bernie's room we went, and with Bruce over my shoulder, I cut the 1/2" tapes. As I recall, this took a couple of hours, and we were done. By the way, video footage of my "bartering session" with Michael exists, although I was never able to get a copy. Perhaps someday!

One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. "here's the first chord first note, second note, third note. Here's the second chord first note, second note, third note", etc., etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57.

He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. he would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills.

At one point Michael was angry at one of the producers on the project because he was treating everyone terribly. Rather than create a scene or fire the guy, Michael called him to his office/lounge and one of the security guys threw a pie in his face. No further action was needed . . . . .

During the recording of "Smile" on HIStory, Bruce thought it would be great if Michael would sing live with the orchestra. But of course, we didn't tell the players that. We set him up in a vocal booth off to the side. They rehearsed a bit without vocals in, then during the first take Michael sang, just about knocked them out of their chairs.

His beatboxing was without parallel, and his time was ridiculous.

His sense of harmony was incredible. Never a bad note, no tuning, even his breathing was perfectly in time.

Once, while we were taking a break, I think we were actually watching the OJ chase on TV, there was a news program talking about him being in Europe with some little boy. I was sitting next to the guy while the news is making this crap up. He just looked at me and said this is what I have to deal with.

I spent close to 3 years working with him, and not once did I question his morals, or ever believe any of the allegations. I wasn't even a fan then. I saw him interact with his brothers kids, other people's children, and at one point my own girlfriend's kids. I got to spend a day at Neverland with them. A completely incredible human being, always looking for a way to make all children's lives better. Every weekend at Neverland was donated to a different children's group - children with AIDS, children cancer, etc., and most of the time he wasn't there.

He was simply living the childhood he never had. In many ways he never grew up.

I was assisting Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis while they recorded the background vocals for "Scream" with MJ and Janet. The two of them singing together was amazing. Super tight, no bad notes. One part after another. When they took a break they sang the showtunes they used to sing as kids. Again, perfect harmony. Mj refused to sing the "stop f*ckin' with me part" because he would NOT curse.

I was the tape op for the recording of the background vocals on "Stranger in Moscow". Scared the hell out me. Michael was dropping in and out on syllables, rearranging the notes and timing as he put it down. No Pro Tools at the time, just 2" tape, and my punches.

I erased a live keyboard overdub that he played one night. He came in the next morning, replaced it, and never uttered another word about it.

I was there when Lisa Marie was around. They acted like two kids in love. Held hands all the time, and she hung out at the studio for quite a while. I never questioned their love for each other.

We recorded a Christmas song during the summer of '94 that needed a children's choir. Michael insisted that the entire studio be decorated with xmas lights, tree, fake snow and a sled for their recording. And he bought presents for everyone.

The last weekend of recording on HIStory he came to me and Eddie Delena, and said "I'm sorry, but I don't think any of us are going to sleep this weekend. There's a lot to get done, and we have to go to Bernie on Monday morning". He stayed at the studio the entire time, singing, and mixing. I got to spend a couple quiet moments with him during that time. We talked about John Lennon one night as he was gearing up to sing the last vocal of the record - the huge ad libs at the end of "earth song". I told him the story of John singing "twist and shout" while being sick, and though most people think he was screaming for effect, it was actually his voice giving out. He loved it, and then went in to sing his heart out. . . .

Later that night, while mixing, everyone left the room so MJ could turn it up. This was a common occurrence during the mixes, and I was left in the room with ear plugs, and hands over my ears, in case he needed something. This particular night, all the lights were out and we noticed some blue flashes intermittently lighting up the room during playback. After a few moments we could see that one of the speakers (custom quad augspuergers) was shooting blue flames. Mj liked this and proceeded to push all the faders up . . . .

MJ liked hot water while he was singing. I mean really hot !!!!! It got to the point that I would melt plastic spoons to test it.

Bruce and I were talking about walking to the studio everyday in NYC, and what routes we took. Michael looked at us and said we were so lucky to be able to do that. He couldn't walk down the street without being harassed. It was a sad moment for all of us.

The studio crew got free tickets to the Janet show so we all went right from work one night. About halfway through the show we see this dude with a long beard, dressed in robes dancing in the aisle behind. I mean really dancing . . . it was Mj in disguise. Kind of like the costume Chevy Chase wears in Fletch while roller skating.

He got one of the first playstations from sony in his lounge . . . we snuck in late at night to play the games that hadn't been released yet.

A couple people on the session hadn't seen Jurassic Park while it was out, so MJ arranged a private screening for us at Sony.

He was a huge fan of Nine Inch Nails Downward Spiral . . . .

I was lucky enough over the course of 3 years to have access to the multitrack masters for tour prep, videos, and archive purposes. To be able to pull these tracks apart was a huge lesson in production, and songwriting. A chance to look into the minds of geniuses.

Of all the records I've worked on, MJJ was the only company to give platinum award records.

One day we just all sat in the studio listening to his catalog with him for inspiration. He loved the process, he loved the work.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/84587-real-story-billie-jean.html

Recording and Mixing "Billie Jean"....

The year is 1982. The song is "Billie Jean". The sonic image of Michael Jacksons' "Billie Jean" is a perfect example of what happened, when I sat around dreaming awhile, about combining different recording techniques to produce a unique musical canvas with a tremendous 'sonic personality'.

Of course I was comfortably ensconsed in Westlake Audio’s beautiful new Studio ‘A’ on Beverly Boulevard, with my good friends Quincy Jones, Micheal Jackson and Rod Temperton. We were doing our favorite thing... We were making music!!! We had just started recording Michael Jackson’s album “Thriller”...

We were recording Michael’s song “Billie Jean”.....

I recorded the drums,(played by the fantastic drummer, N'Dugu) with as tight, and powerful a drum sound as I could come up with. Of course I put N'Dugus' drum set on my plywood drum platform. Also at this time, I had a special kick drum cover made that covers the whole front of the kick drum. There's a slot with a zipper in it that the mike fits through. When the kick drum mike is in place, in the slot in my drum cover, I zip the opening tightly shut around the mike.

I brought in my old pal George Massenburgs' spectacular sounding, portable, 12 channel recording console and used it to record the rhythm section. With it I recorded the bass, drums and guitars on my analogue 16 track, with no noise reduction equipment in the way of that fantastic sound!

In my estimation, the the result of the song “Billie Jean”, is a perfect example of what I call “Sonic Personality”. I don’t think there are many recordings, where all you need to hear is the first few drums beats, and you instantly know what song it is.

Great albums always start with great songs....

"Billie Jean" is just such a superb song! Of course, Michael wrote "Billie Jean"..

Quincy says that the lyric that Michael wrote is highly personal. I’m sure that’s true. Michael told us... it was about a girl, that climbed over the wall at Michael’s house, and was lounging out there, by the swimming pool.... she was laying out there, near the pool , lounging... hangin’ out... with shades on, her bathing suit on. One morning she just showed up! Kind of like a stalker, almost. She had accused Michael of being the father of ONE of her twins... Is that possible? I don’t think so....

When it came time for me to mix "Billie Jean", it was business as usual... When I am working with Michael, Quincy, Rod, Jennifer, Sergio and so on..... I am allowed total ceative freedom with the sonics of the music... In other words, I am always left to myself when it is time to mix. My mixes can take hours, days or even weeks.... I firmly believe that a mix is not finished, until it is on a Record for sale at Tower....

So I had been mixing "Billie Jean" for a day or two. I’d do a mix. ..... Say I was up to mix number 2.... (At that time I was mixing onto 1/2” analogue.) I thought it was killer!!!

I called MJ, Quincy and Rod into the control room and played mix 2 for them. They loved it!!! They were all dancing and carrying on like crazy!!! Smiles all around! Then Michael slipped out of the control room, turned around and motioned to me to follow him... Then he whispered to me, “Please Bruce, it’s perfect, but turn the Bass up just a tiny bit, and do one more mix, please....” I said to him...”OK Smelly, no problem”...

(When we were recording “Off The Wall”, Quincy gave Michael the nickname of “Smelly” because when Michael liked a groove, he’d call it “Smelly Jelly.” Also Michael doesn’t curse, and when MJ wants to say a bad word he’ll simply call it “Smelly”... The name has stuck...)

Then I went back into the control room to add Michael’s tiny bit of bass to my mix... Quincy pulled me over into the corner and said “Please Svensk... “(Svensk is Quincy’s nickname for me. It means “Swedish Man” in Swedish... When you have a genuine Quincy Jones nickname like ‘Svensk” - You are truly honored....) Q said to me.... “Add a little garlic salt to the snare and the kick. Just a squirt!!!”) so I went back into the control room and added a little garlic salt to the snare and the kick. Just a squirt!!! Now I was up to mix 20 on "Billie Jean".

Well, this went on for about a week. Soon I was up to mix 91!!! I had a stack of 1/2 inch tapes almost to the ceiling!!! I would do a few mixes, we’d listen... Then do a few more. We had it PERFECT!!! We thought we had a really ‘HOT’ mix on “Billie Jean”. I played Mix 91 for the boys... Everybody smiled... but Quincy had one of his funny looks on his face...

I thought.... Hmmmm.... Oh, Oh....

Quincy said “You know Svensk, just for the fun of it, can we listen to one of your earlier mixes???” My heart jumped because I knew that my earlier mixes were dynamite!!! Then Quincy said, “Let’s hear mix number 2!!!” Oh WOW!!!! Hallelujah!!! I love mix 2!!!!

We listened to mix 2... IT WAS SLAMMIN’!!! EVERYONE IN THE STUDIO WAS GROOVIN’ AND DANCIN’ and HAPPY, and actin’ IGNORANT!!!!

Well, here’s the deal. When “Thriller” was released to the Whole World by Epic Records, on Tuesday, November 30, 1982, it went to Tower Records with MIX 2 OF "Billie Jean" on it!!! AND, when the single of "Billie Jean" came out it was MIX 2!!!

The REAL Story of "Billie Jean"...

Bruce Swedien

Yeah, I've read through that thread at gearslutz. Good stuff.

Imaginative said:

Yeah, I've read through that thread at gearslutz. Good stuff.

2 of my friends used that when they revised their book on Michael. There's a lot of good info in there

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2009/07/more_details_on_instrumental_a.html

TV and film composer and conductor David Michael Frank may have been one of the last persons to collaborate with Michael Jackson on an artistic project. The pop singer’s untimely death left that project in an uncertain state. Initial reports suggested that Jackson planned to do an album of “classical music” he had written; the pieces were to be orchestrated by Frank. Actually, Frank says, the pieces were closer to film music and would have gone into an all-instrumental album had Jackson lived. The Baltimore-born Frank, interviewed by phone in California, gives an account here of his experience with the King of Pop:

Four or five months ago, I received a call from Michael Jackson’s longtime personal recording engineer, Michael Prince, who told me Michael was looking for someone to arrange some music for orchestra. I thought it was going to be for the tour he was going to do. For the next month or two, he would call, saying, ‘Michael Jackson says he’s going to call you.’

At the end of April, another Michael, Michael Jackson’s personal assistant, called me and asked me to come the next day at 10 a.m. and asked me the make and model of my car. I drove to the Holmby Hills home. I drove up to the front door, and was met by an assistant who told me to go inside. I was met there by a woman dressed like a housekeeper, but with a white turban on her head. She said, ‘Michael Jackson will be with you shortly.’ About two minutes later, he came down the stairs.

I was reluctant to shake his hand because I had heard that he was concerned about germs, but he immediately stuck his hand out and gave me a very firm handshake. He was very skinny, but not the least bit frail. He was wearing a suit and a hat. He was going to rehearsal later for the tour. He said, ‘You look familiar.’ I told him a long time ago I worked on a TV tribute to Sammy Davis, Jr. at Shrine Auditorium [that he had participated in]. I told him I had met him briefly there.’ He said, ‘I never forget a face.’

He told me, ‘I have three projects going on simultaneously.’ One was the tour that the whole world knew about. The other two I believe no one knew about. One was to be an album of pop songs. Then he said, ‘The other one is that I want to record an album of classical music’ — what he called classical music.

He said he listened to ...

classical music all the time; it was his absolute favorite. I was impressed with the pieces he mentioned: Aaron Copland’s Rodeo, Fanfare for the Common Man and Lincoln Portrait; Leonard Bernstein’s West Side Story. I mentioned Bernstein's On the Waterfront. Then Michael mentioned that he loved Elmer Bernstein's film music, too, and he specifically mentioned To Kill a Mockingbird.

I realized that almost all the classical pieces he mentioned are childlike, very simple and pretty, like Prokofiev’s Peter and the Wolf and Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker Suite. He also mentioned Debussy several times, specifically Arabesque [No. 1] and Clair de lune. He was very soft-spoken when were talking about music, but when he got animated about something, he was very changed. When he mentioned how he loved Elmer Bernstein, and I said I liked the Magnificent Seven score, Michael started singing the theme very loudly, almost screaming it.

He said, ‘I’m making a CD.’ Then his son, Prince Michael, came in, and Michael asked him to find a CD player. Paris found one and brought it in with Prince. Michael played the CD. It was very pretty music. He said, ‘But a section is missing.’ He played a second piece. And he said, ‘But a section is missing, too. But I can hum it to you.’ I asked if there was a piano in the house, and he said there was one in the pool house. We headed out there, but Michael stopped when he saw the dog was outside, soaking wet from being in the pool. He didn't want us to get splattered. It was kind of funny. Michael got another assistant to hold the dog while we went to his pool house.

I sat at the piano and Michael hummed the missing part of one of the pieces. I had taken a little digital recorder with me and asked if I could record him. He was in perfect pitch. I tried to figure out chords to go with it as he hummed. He said, ‘Your instincts are totally right about the chords.’

We talked about classical music some more. I played some Debussy pieces. Michael seemed very happy and I think he felt very comfortable with me. He mentioned Leonard Bernstein again, and I played some of West Side Story. He told me he had met Bernstein once and that Bernstein had said he was a big fan of Michael’s.

Back in the house, whenever he’d go from room to room, you’d hear, ‘I love you, Daddy.’ ‘I love you, Paris.’ They all seemed pretty normal and happy.

Michael was very anxious to get the pieces orchestrated and record the music with a big orchestra. I suggested we record it at the Fox, Sony or Warner Brothers lot. I asked if he could have someone call me to discuss the budget and he said he would take care of it. When I left there were several fans outside the gate.

[Later] I talked to Michael on the phone. He asked me how the project was going and I said I was waiting to hear from someone so we could set the deal. I suggested we could record the music in London while he was doing the show there. He liked the idea. He again brought up Arabesque.

I laid the music all out on my computer and started on the orchestrations. Finally, a week before Michael died, his manager, Frank Dileo, called and asked me for an email with the budget and an electronic mock-up of the music, the costs of orchestration.

Now I have no idea what’s going to happen with this. I’m hoping the family will do something to get this done. I will not bring it up [with them] until after what I think is an appropriate time.

My guess is that each piece would be seven to ten minutes long. [Each one] is more substantial than a song. It’s very pretty music. One piece had an Irish quality about it. I suggested that we could use a Celtic harp. The pieces sound like pretty film score music, with very traditional harmony, and definitely very strong melodies. One of them was a little John Barry-ish, like in Out of Africa-- that kind of John Barry score. I could hear [in my head] sweeping strings and French horns in unison.

I told Michael I was going to use one of Leonard Bernstein’s batons I had bought at auction when we did the recording. I knew he would have gotten a big kick out of that. I guess I still will use that baton if I ever get to conduct the music.

Without the need to get into a whole Prince V MJ discussion (yet again) there is no denying that Michael's output was not as prolific as Prince. Whereas Prince seems to be on constant release every few years, if not yearly, Michael would take between 2 and 4 years between albums.

This though is a quantity argument and not one of quality. Quality discussions will always come down to personal preferences and taste - though it should be noted that Michael's hit rate is higher than Prince's per album and for the same time period.

As bboy correctly stated, Michael's releases would yield hits for 2 years, with the major releases of Bad and Dangerous and HiStory all supported by lengthy world wide tours which would also factor in to how and when he released material.

Just clearing up some misconceptions.

It should also be pointed out that MJ was pretty prolific during the 1979 - 1986 period.

1978 - Destiny with The Jacksons

1979 - Off The Wall

1980 - Triumph with The Jacksons

1982 - Thriller

1984 - Victory with The Jacksons*

1986 - Bad

smoothcriminal12 said:

bboy87 said:

it was more about fleshing a project out. The Bad era wasn't just about the album, it was the videos, the tours, the singles, Moonwalk, Moonwalker, and the look

If you think about it, he would promote an album for at least 2 or 3 years, then would retreat and then work on the next album

He promoted Thriller from late 1982 to late 1984, spent 1985 to 1987 making Bad, EO, and doing deals. Promoted back from 1987 to early 1989 promoting Bad, then spent 1989-1991 making Dangerous, for example

That's true. He wasn't just about the music - everything had to be an extravagent show, which is quite sad, because it takes away from the real focus - the music.

I agree. When I think of OTW, I think of the music first & foremost. There was none of the hype that surrounded subsequent albums. Even when Thriller came out the hype was minimum, it only started to garner hype as the album became more and more successful. However, albums like BaD, Dangerous & History the hype started well before the albums were even released.

Also the difference between the timing of albums like OTW & Thriller is MJ was still very much part of the Jacksons. So even though OTW & Thriller were 3 yrs apart, in between we had another classic Jackson album, Triumph. A year before OTW we got Destiny. So There was a flow of albums either with the Jacksons or solo up until 1984. However , from 1987 up to his death you practically get just 3 and half albums in 22 years and IMO they were not his best work, most of the last 22 years was made up of lots of hype, tablod stories and allegations.

The picture says it all...

Swa said:

It should also be pointed out that MJ was pretty prolific during the 1979 - 1986 period.

1978 - Destiny with The Jacksons

1979 - Off The Wall

1980 - Triumph with The Jacksons

I'd love to hear some demos from these eras. These albums were recorded so close together. I wonder if certain songs from these albums were considered for one another.

Destiny

Recorded August 1977 - November 1978

Off the Wall

Recorded December 1978 - June 1979

Triumph

Recorded December 1979 - June 1980

Off the Wall was right in the middle...I remember when the "Sunset Driver" record came out. At first I was told it was an outtake from Destiny, then I heard it was from Off the Wall, THEN I heard it was Triumph. If you think about it, it could very well fit in any of the albums...Well not Destiny...

[Edited 7/6/11 2:13am]

babybugz said:

Will you just stop responding some of the fans make it worse and yes obviously Michael wasn’t mentally right I’m sure I wouldn’t be either if I went through half the stuff he went through but I won’t focus on that let’s just focus on his gift please smh.

Anyway can someone direct me to some good Michael photos I know some sites but need some really good ones it would be appreciated.

There was a site called Kingofthedancefloor. The facebook page is still going so I'm sure you could get some great pictures from there

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

Does anyone else prefer this to the original?

Two completely different songs IMO. Love Mikes vocals on this one. Amazing.

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[img:$uid]http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc31/KristianUK/Michael-Jackson-and-Mr-T.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc31/KristianUK/Michael-Jackson-and-Oscar-the-Grouch.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc31/KristianUK/Michael-Jackson-and-Sylvester-Stallone-17597228136.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc31/KristianUK/mjst.jpg[/img:$uid]

Swa said:

Without the need to get into a whole Prince V MJ discussion (yet again) there is no denying that Michael's output was not as prolific as Prince. Whereas Prince seems to be on constant release every few years, if not yearly, Michael would take between 2 and 4 years between albums.

This though is a quantity argument and not one of quality. Quality discussions will always come down to personal preferences and taste - though it should be noted that Michael's hit rate is higher than Prince's per album and for the same time period.

As bboy correctly stated, Michael's releases would yield hits for 2 years, with the major releases of Bad and Dangerous and HiStory all supported by lengthy world wide tours which would also factor in to how and when he released material.

Just clearing up some misconceptions.

I just HATE when these two are compared. A while back I would've been one of those people who thought the comparisons were accurate but when you really think about it, they aren't and just are useless to a discussion. There's reasons why Michael released as little albums he did and why Prince released as much as he did but to compare it is ridiculous imho.

Timmy84 said:

Swa said:

Without the need to get into a whole Prince V MJ discussion (yet again) there is no denying that Michael's output was not as prolific as Prince. Whereas Prince seems to be on constant release every few years, if not yearly, Michael would take between 2 and 4 years between albums.

This though is a quantity argument and not one of quality. Quality discussions will always come down to personal preferences and taste - though it should be noted that Michael's hit rate is higher than Prince's per album and for the same time period.

As bboy correctly stated, Michael's releases would yield hits for 2 years, with the major releases of Bad and Dangerous and HiStory all supported by lengthy world wide tours which would also factor in to how and when he released material.

Just clearing up some misconceptions.

I just HATE when these two are compared. A while back I would've been one of those people who thought the comparisons were accurate but when you really think about it, they aren't and just are useless to a discussion. There's reasons why Michael released as little albums he did and why Prince released as much as he did but to compare it is ridiculous imho.

Agree that the comparison is ridiculous. It's like comparing Sammy Davis Jr. to Duke Ellington. I also agree there is a reason why Jackson released so little. It can be summed up in one word, "Ability."

Prince's problem was that the record companies wouldn't let him release as much material as he could produce. Jackson's problem was the the record labels wanted him to release more than he was able to produce.

Jackson had good timing to be able to milk singles off a single album for 2+ years. That wouldn't have worked 20 years prior to Thriller, and it wouldn't work today. The reason he was able to make it work can also be summed up in one word, "MTV." How do you make a 2 year old song seem brand new? Release a new high-budget video. As MTV became less and less relevant, this strategy became less and less effective for Jackson.

[Edited 7/6/11 8:16am]

[Edited 7/6/11 8:17am]

Michael Jackson’s Forgotten Fortune: Secret Art CollectionUncovered & Valued At $900M

Posted on Jul 06, 2011 @ 09:00AM

WENN

By Dylan Howard - Senior Executive Editor, Star magazine

Michael Jackson secretly left behind an almost billion-dollar secret art fortune that is now at the center of an international tug of war, Star has exclusively learned.

The never-before-seen collection would have insured the King of Pop's surviving children were looked after for life. But in a startling twist, the secret vault has been sold out from underneath them, at a 'bargain basement' price, relatively speaking.

Lawyers running the late Thriller singer's estate are moving to block the $87.7 million sale to an undisclosed international businessman, in a desperate attempt to return the incredible treasure to Prince, 13, Paris, 12, and Blanket, 8, and their guardian, Jackson's mother Katherine.

In an astonishing appraisal of the 182-pieces, obtained exclusively by Star, the “rare intact major collection” was valued at a whopping $902.52 million, with “an invaluable pedigree for future sales in the international art market.”

“Michael’s mystique in life combined with this exposure of his wonderful fine art creations following his tragic death will escalate the value of these works and the popularity of his artistic vision worldwide,” appraiser Eric Finzi, a certified member of the International Society of Appraisers, wrote in a document obtained by the magazine.

“I do not think we have begun to see the true value of this fine art yet.”

The loot is so valuable that it’s worth almost more than Jackson’s other assets combined, including copyrights to his pop hits and the Beatles' catalog, which he purchased in 1998 for $47.5 million.

Jackson, who was once famously called “a millionaire who lived like a billionaire,” built the extensive collection of sculptures and sketches that he drew while being taught by an Australian artist, Brett-Livingston Strong, who was a close friend.

Strong and his advisors orchestrated the deal recently, Star has learned.

In a letter sent to the artist, Dr. Tohme Tohme, Jackson’s last business manager and spokesperson, paved the way for the sale, transferring over the collection of artwork -- free of charge -- "to keep, sell, copy, exhibit and to use in whatever way you wish."

"Michael wants you to know he is truly grateful for the loyalty you have shown him over the years, and he views this as a small token of appreciation for your continued friendship and artistic partnership," Dr. Tohme wrote in the hand-signed letter, dated November 17, 2008, obtained by Star.

But now legal experts are now examining the validity of the document concerned that it could be a fake.

They also have questions over Jackson’s knowledge of the purported agreement.

"Michael's signature nor his initials are inked on the document that purports to gifts hundreds of millions of dollars to Strong, at a time when Michael was swamped in debt," a source close to the Jacksons told Star.

"It doesn't make sense that he would give it up."

The insider added: "Michael's mother and his children were the dearest thing to him in his life, so it beggars belief that he would not want them to benefit from this collection, financially."

Complicating matters, the source close to the Jacksons said Dr. Tohme has refused to swear an affidavit confirming the letter was true.

He was asked to do so by Howard Mann, the controversial Toronto gambling entrepreneur who is Katherine Jackson's business partner, Star has learned.

While Mann refused to comment when contacted about the deal, it's emerged he was bidding for the collection against Guy Laliberté, the former street performer who founded Cirque du Soleil and went on to become a billionaire. Neither man was successful.

The collection is as bizarre as the rest of the singer's turbulent life and includes intricate designs for chairs, gates, sculptures and elaborate doors he dreamed of installing at Neverland, Jackson’s former home (and amusement park and zoo), located 125 miles northwest of Los Angeles.

Each item tells a story about Jackson and throw light on mysteries which have puzzled fans for decades.

Star uncovered:

* Sketches of Jackson’s own feet doing his signature move from 'Billie Jean', the Moonwalk, now one of the best-known dance techniques in the world. Those original drawings have been valued at $600,000 each.

* His fascination with the number 7. In a series of artworks, Jackson sketched the numeral -- which coincided with the star's three biggest albums -- "Thriller," "Bad" and "Dangerous" -- each producing 7 top 40 hits. Jackson was also the 7th of 9 children.

* Recreations of the Statue of David and Dying Slave, the masterpiece of Renaissance sculpture by Michelangelo.

* His first work of art, "We the People," on Presidential archival paper. It’s said to be worth $3 million, according to the appraisal.

* An interesting political relic: The U.S. Presidency Seal signed by President Ronald Reagan. Jackson had visited the White House on May 16, 1984.

* After that visit, Jackson sketched ‘The White House Doors’ -- a drawing appraisers have estimated is worth at $3 million.

* Sketches of Martin Luther King, President Abraham Lincoln and President George Washington, worth in all, more than $8.1 million, it’s suggested.

* A self portrait emblazoned on a plaque to be the feature of an entrance to a theater at Neverland. There’s also an image of what Jackson titled the ‘Peter Pan Magic Gate.’

* Hand-signed sepia prints of ‘The Book,’ reputed to be the only portrait he ever posed for. The portrait depitcs Jackson dressed in red velvet holding a journal of thoughts and sketches.

* Sketches of the plane with which the Orville and Wilbur Wright achieved controlled flight. Jackson was said to have been fascinated with how the Wrights were able to fly. In a 2007 visit to the the Smithsonian's National Air and Space and American Indian museums, he lingered over the actual 1903 Wright Flyer.

The collection also includes a rocking chair made by one of President John F. Kennedy’s White House staffers for the president’s use in the oval office during his term in office.

The chair was presented to Michael by Walt Disney’s brother, Roy E. Disney.

The art was created at a top secret and inconspicuous airport hanger at Santa Monica Airport in California, Star has learned.

“The successful bidder put down a payment of $37.7 million to secure the art and agreed to pay a further $50 million upon receipt of a release from the estate,” an insider close to the deal told Star.

“That’s what raised the red flag — the release has not been forthcoming and it’s ignited this tug of war."

As Star reports, the Jacksons and the estate are now working on a challenge against the document. See the disputed document -- along with sketches of the amazing art collection -- in the latest edition of Star, which is on newsstands now.

Plus -- read what Jackson matriarch Katherine tells Star, in an exclusive interview, about the secret treasure trove!

http://www.radaronline.co...alued-900m

Very interesting...

NaughtyKitty said:

Michael Jackson’s Forgotten Fortune: Secret Art CollectionUncovered & Valued At $900M

---

Posted on Jul 06, 2011 @ 09:00AM

print it send it

WENN

By Dylan Howard - Senior Executive Editor, Star magazine

Michael Jackson secretly left behind an almost billion-dollar secret art fortune that is now at the center of an international tug of war, Star has exclusively learned.

The never-before-seen collection would have insured the King of Pop's surviving children were looked after for life. But in a startling twist, the secret vault has been sold out from underneath them, at a 'bargain basement' price, relatively speaking.

Lawyers running the late Thriller singer's estate are moving to block the $87.7 million sale to an undisclosed international businessman, in a desperate attempt to return the incredible treasure to Prince, 13, Paris, 12, and Blanket, 8, and their guardian, Jackson's mother Katherine.

In an astonishing appraisal of the 182-pieces, obtained exclusively by Star, the “rare intact major collection” was valued at a whopping $902.52 million, with “an invaluable pedigree for future sales in the international art market.”

“Michael’s mystique in life combined with this exposure of his wonderful fine art creations following his tragic death will escalate the value of these works and the popularity of his artistic vision worldwide,” appraiser Eric Finzi, a certified member of the International Society of Appraisers, wrote in a document obtained by the magazine.

“I do not think we have begun to see the true value of this fine art yet.”

The loot is so valuable that it’s worth almost more than Jackson’s other assets combined, including copyrights to his pop hits and the Beatles' catalog, which he purchased in 1998 for $47.5 million.

Jackson, who was once famously called “a millionaire who lived like a billionaire,” built the extensive collection of sculptures and sketches that he drew while being taught by an Australian artist, Brett-Livingston Strong, who was a close friend.

Strong and his advisors orchestrated the deal recently, Star has learned.

In a letter sent to the artist, Dr. Tohme Tohme, Jackson’s last business manager and spokesperson, paved the way for the sale, transferring over the collection of artwork -- free of charge -- "to keep, sell, copy, exhibit and to use in whatever way you wish."

"Michael wants you to know he is truly grateful for the loyalty you have shown him over the years, and he views this as a small token of appreciation for your continued friendship and artistic partnership," Dr. Tohme wrote in the hand-signed letter, dated November 17, 2008, obtained by Star.

But now legal experts are now examining the validity of the document concerned that it could be a fake.

They also have questions over Jackson’s knowledge of the purported agreement.

"Michael's signature nor his initials are inked on the document that purports to gifts hundreds of millions of dollars to Strong, at a time when Michael was swamped in debt," a source close to the Jacksons told Star.

"It doesn't make sense that he would give it up."

The insider added: "Michael's mother and his children were the dearest thing to him in his life, so it beggars belief that he would not want them to benefit from this collection, financially."

Complicating matters, the source close to the Jacksons said Dr. Tohme has refused to swear an affidavit confirming the letter was true.

He was asked to do so by Howard Mann, the controversial Toronto gambling entrepreneur who is Katherine Jackson's business partner, Star has learned.

While Mann refused to comment when contacted about the deal, it's emerged he was bidding for the collection against Guy Laliberté, the former street performer who founded Cirque du Soleil and went on to become a billionaire. Neither man was successful.

The collection is as bizarre as the rest of the singer's turbulent life and includes intricate designs for chairs, gates, sculptures and elaborate doors he dreamed of installing at Neverland, Jackson’s former home (and amusement park and zoo), located 125 miles northwest of Los Angeles.

Each item tells a story about Jackson and throw light on mysteries which have puzzled fans for decades.

Star uncovered:

* Sketches of Jackson’s own feet doing his signature move from 'Billie Jean', the Moonwalk, now one of the best-known dance techniques in the world. Those original drawings have been valued at $600,000 each.

* His fascination with the number 7. In a series of artworks, Jackson sketched the numeral -- which coincided with the star's three biggest albums -- "Thriller," "Bad" and "Dangerous" -- each producing 7 top 40 hits. Jackson was also the 7th of 9 children.

* Recreations of the Statue of David and Dying Slave, the masterpiece of Renaissance sculpture by Michelangelo.

* His first work of art, "We the People," on Presidential archival paper. It’s said to be worth $3 million, according to the appraisal.

* An interesting political relic: The U.S. Presidency Seal signed by President Ronald Reagan. Jackson had visited the White House on May 16, 1984.

* After that visit, Jackson sketched ‘The White House Doors’ -- a drawing appraisers have estimated is worth at $3 million.

* Sketches of Martin Luther King, President Abraham Lincoln and President George Washington, worth in all, more than $8.1 million, it’s suggested.

* A self portrait emblazoned on a plaque to be the feature of an entrance to a theater at Neverland. There’s also an image of what Jackson titled the ‘Peter Pan Magic Gate.’

* Hand-signed sepia prints of ‘The Book,’ reputed to be the only portrait he ever posed for. The portrait depitcs Jackson dressed in red velvet holding a journal of thoughts and sketches.

* Sketches of the plane with which the Orville and Wilbur Wright achieved controlled flight. Jackson was said to have been fascinated with how the Wrights were able to fly. In a 2007 visit to the the Smithsonian's National Air and Space and American Indian museums, he lingered over the actual 1903 Wright Flyer.

The collection also includes a rocking chair made by one of President John F. Kennedy’s White House staffers for the president’s use in the oval office during his term in office.

The chair was presented to Michael by Walt Disney’s brother, Roy E. Disney.

The art was created at a top secret and inconspicuous airport hanger at Santa Monica Airport in California, Star has learned.

“The successful bidder put down a payment of $37.7 million to secure the art and agreed to pay a further $50 million upon receipt of a release from the estate,” an insider close to the deal told Star.

“That’s what raised the red flag — the release has not been forthcoming and it’s ignited this tug of war."

As Star reports, the Jacksons and the estate are now working on a challenge against the document. See the disputed document -- along with sketches of the amazing art collection -- in the latest edition of Star, which is on newsstands now.

Plus -- read what Jackson matriarch Katherine tells Star, in an exclusive interview, about the secret treasure trove!

http://www.radaronline.co...alued-900m

Very interesting...

Interesting indeed, if true.

^ Yes, it seems quite strange, the whole thing. Wonder who the bidder who wants to buy the art is?

^Does anyone have this pic in a bigger size?

NaughtyKitty said:

^ Yes, it seems quite strange, the whole thing. Wonder who the bidder who wants to buy the art is?

^Does anyone have this pic in a bigger size?

ILLUMINATI ZOMG!!!

^

Speaking of Brett Livingstone-Strong, I found these on his facebook page:

Oprah admiring Michael Jackson Fine Art "Portrait of Martin Luther King Jr. Copyright @all rights reserved 2010

http://www.facebook.com/p...mp;theater

Brand New Sculpture Created by Brett-Livingstone Strong of Michael Jackson as Joe Jackson admired the beautiful image to be created life size 2011. " Joe says THATS MY BOY!!" Paris standing next to him says "Thats my dad"

http://www.facebook.com/p...mp;theater

Imaginative said:

Timmy84 said:

I just HATE when these two are compared. A while back I would've been one of those people who thought the comparisons were accurate but when you really think about it, they aren't and just are useless to a discussion. There's reasons why Michael released as little albums he did and why Prince released as much as he did but to compare it is ridiculous imho.

Agree that the comparison is ridiculous. It's like comparing Sammy Davis Jr. to Duke Ellington. I also agree there is a reason why Jackson released so little. It can be summed up in one word, "Ability."

Prince's problem was that the record companies wouldn't let him release as much material as he could produce. Jackson's problem was the the record labels wanted him to release more than he was able to produce.

Jackson had good timing to be able to milk singles off a single album for 2+ years. That wouldn't have worked 20 years prior to Thriller, and it wouldn't work today. The reason he was able to make it work can also be summed up in one word, "MTV." How do you make a 2 year old song seem brand new? Release a new high-budget video. As MTV became less and less relevant, this strategy became less and less effective for Jackson.

[Edited 7/6/11 8:16am]

[Edited 7/6/11 8:17am]

Sammy and Duke were geniuses but in different ways and I feel that's the same when said about Michael and Prince. They went about things a different way, so the comparisons don't quite work

Michael DELIBERATELY didn't release albums year after year.

bboy87 said:

Imaginative said:

Agree that the comparison is ridiculous. It's like comparing Sammy Davis Jr. to Duke Ellington. I also agree there is a reason why Jackson released so little. It can be summed up in one word, "Ability."

Prince's problem was that the record companies wouldn't let him release as much material as he could produce. Jackson's problem was the the record labels wanted him to release more than he was able to produce.

Jackson had good timing to be able to milk singles off a single album for 2+ years. That wouldn't have worked 20 years prior to Thriller, and it wouldn't work today. The reason he was able to make it work can also be summed up in one word, "MTV." How do you make a 2 year old song seem brand new? Release a new high-budget video. As MTV became less and less relevant, this strategy became less and less effective for Jackson.

[Edited 7/6/11 8:16am]

[Edited 7/6/11 8:17am]

Sammy and Duke were geniuses but in different ways and I feel that's the same when said about Michael and Prince. They went about things a different way, so the comparisons don't quite work

Michael DELIBERATELY didn't release albums year after year.

Thank you!

NaughtyKitty said:

^

Speaking of Brett Livingstone-Strong, I found these on his facebook page:

Oprah admiring Michael Jackson Fine Art "Portrait of Martin Luther King Jr. Copyright @all rights reserved 2010

http://www.facebook.com/p...mp;theater

Brand New Sculpture Created by Brett-Livingstone Strong of Michael Jackson as Joe Jackson admired the beautiful image to be created life size 2011. " Joe says THATS MY BOY!!" Paris standing next to him says "Thats my dad"

http://www.facebook.com/p...mp;theater

[img:$uid]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/Ramiella/Michael%20Joseph%20Jackson/drawing/MJs_Mickey_Drawing.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://mjvibe.com/gallery/data/media/1/drawing7ju7.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://wirelessdigest.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/03/15/jacksonchaplin.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/Ramiella/Michael%20Joseph%20Jackson/drawing/dibujo_thriller-1p.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://michaeljackson-videotribute.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/michael_jackson_childhood_drawing.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://animalnewyork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/michael-jackson-art.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://media.cnbc.com/i/CNBC/Sections/News_And_Analysis/_News/_SLIDESHOWS/Michael_Jackson_SECOND/mj_auction2_chaplin.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://media.cnbc.com/i/CNBC/Sections/News_And_Analysis/_News/_SLIDESHOWS/Michael_Jackson_SECOND/mj_auction2_drawing.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/TSColdMan/MJ_Artwork_ET.jpg[/img:$uid]

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

Sammy and Duke were geniuses but in different ways and I feel that's the same when said about Michael and Prince. They went about things a different way, so the comparisons don't quite work

Michael DELIBERATELY didn't release albums year after year.

Thank you!

Speaking of Sammy, I've always admired him. I think he was the epitome of cool, but reading his autobiography, I've gained a new respect for him. Timmy you should check it out, it's a great read

[Edited 7/6/11 13:02pm]

Thanks for posting those Bboy Michael could've had another career as a cartoonist or sketch artist. That "Outraged" drawing is pretty wild, what did he write on that? Cant make out all the words.

Looks like it says A mind that is shredded beyond recognition.

[Edited 7/6/11 13:11pm]

NaughtyKitty said:

Thanks for posting those Bboy Michael could've had another career as a cartoonist or sketch artist. That "Outraged" drawing is pretty wild, what did he write on that? Cant make out all the words.

Looks like it says A mind that is shredded beyond recognition.

[Edited 7/6/11 13:11pm]

A mind that is shocked beyond recognition

bboy87 said:

NaughtyKitty said:

Thanks for posting those Bboy Michael could've had another career as a cartoonist or sketch artist. That "Outraged" drawing is pretty wild, what did he write on that? Cant make out all the words.

Looks like it says A mind that is shredded beyond recognition.

[Edited 7/6/11 13:11pm]

A mind that is shocked beyond recognition

Thanx!