For me, the one song that makes him a genius is "If you want me to stay". There is no chorus, yet it is funky as hell and you can't help but move to it. It paved the way for someone like Prince to come up with "The Ballad of dorothy parker", another song that works well and has no chrous.

I wouldn't call Sly a genius. I'm a fan of the band, but the term genius would be stretching things a bit.

I'd call him both....

J-

YOU ALL HAVE LOST YALL DAMN MINDS ON HERE.. I will not tolerate this. How in the hell are mindless wack music threads and artists constantly bumped and praised as being GREAT but a TRUE MUSICAL GENIUS capabilities are questioned??

This should not even be up for discussion. Sly is a legend because of what he did for MUSIC. His personal life has nothing to do with that BUT I guess since this is a MUSIC forum that feeds off of negativity, popularity and gossip about celebs personal life that doesnt matter.

[Edited 6/13/11 5:55am]

Both..........and the latter is winning.

I'd say he's a genius for this one song. Game over.

Written by, produced by and arranged by Sly.

Not to mention he had the shit hittin from track one, album one.

(he allegedly started using drugs around album 3, so I don't think drugs/alcohol need to be mentioned when talking about the quality and originality of his music, the genius was there from the get go and continued through the mayhem).

[Edited 6/13/11 7:44am]

Surely I am not the only one here who realizes that too much cocaine will turn a person into an asshole? The amount that qualifies as too much would be, in my opinion, any amount that a person goes out of their way and spends money (or worse) to get. Cocaine has the potential to DESTROY bands/musicians. It's really not all that. Give me a big sack of green any day.

As for Sly, he would STILL be a genius if not for the mountains of blow.

Yeah genius. Sly was something else. Writer, player, singer, arranger, he was responsible for that band being what it was, and it's as good as bands get. I don't see how that can be disputed. None of the Family Stone has ever come forward to say "I was the one that came up with all that stuff! Sly just sat around and got high!" It all rested on him, and it stopped when he stopped functioning.

Of course he's been under the drug thumb for a long time. He was semi-functional on the shit for a while... until one day he wasn't.

He seems to demonstrate some of the signs of a person sufferring from mental illness, which of course would be made worse by both by the pressures of success and by drug use.

nd33 said:

I'd say he's a genius for this one song. Game over.

Written by, produced by and arranged by Sly.

Not to mention he had the shit hittin from track one, album one.

(he allegedly started using drugs around album 3, so I don't think drugs/alcohol need to be mentioned when talking about the quality and originality of his music, the genius was there from the get go and continued through the mayhem).

[Edited 6/13/11 7:44am]

YESSIR!!!

Mong said:

Karen71 said:

PS: He had a child with one of the members of his band, Cynthia Robinson.

Yep. His brother was seeing her too.

And let's just say that the amount of inter-fucking that Sly and the band did wasn't just limited male-on-female action...

Lawdamercy! It gets worse. His brother, too? Why the hell not. I mean, if you're living, working & creating together non-stop, that kinda limits your social life and ability to get out and meet partners doesn't it? (Although I still think the brother thing is nasty.) A few commenters on youtube claimed Sly once indicated in an interview that he struggled with his bisexuality (which would explain a lot if true.)

QUESTION TO THOSE AROUND DURING SLY'S HEYDAY: As you watched some of his performances on TV, did it ever occur to anybody that "Damn, he must be f**cked up"? I watched a few youtube performances he did on talkshows from the 60's/70's and he seems HIGH AS A KITE. I couldn't help but wonder if that's b/c I'm viewing in retrospect--knowing of his drug problems.

Today, you can't go onstage a few pounds heavier without being dragged over coals in the public (just ask Britney) and if you so much as introduce a performer behaving strangely, we're going to speculate on drug use before you exit stage left (ask Anna Nicole).

Did you guys find his behavior erratic back then or only in retro?

[Edited 6/13/11 12:33pm]

Is James Brown not a "musical genius"?

This thread is dumb./

hhhhdmt said:

For me, the one song that makes him a genius is "If you want me to stay". There is no chorus, yet it is funky as hell and you can't help but move to it. It paved the way for someone like Prince to come up with "The Ballad of dorothy parker", another song that works well and has no chrous.

But, did the way need to be paved in order for Prince to do this?

And as far as interracial bands, FRANKIE LYMON & THE TEENAGERS were interracial. What a truly innovative concept. Like, where they hell do you get Puerto Ricans from to partake in a doo-wop group in the FIFTIES???

What a shame drugs destroyed that band too. As another poster mentioned, it's destroyed ALL the greats.

@MJSCAROUSAL: Again, I'd consider Jimi Hendrix to be a deeply-flawed man, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating that his guitar skills were RIDICULOUS and that his music was WAY ahead of it's time. I'd consider him a musical genius for that. I put him on last week and my children thought I was playing more oldies from the 90s. I was like, "No, go back about 30 years before that".

When Sly & the Family Stone started pouring from my laptop, they wondered why I was listening to "old music from the 60s and 70s".

minneapolisFunq said:

Is James Brown not a "musical genius"?

This thread is dumb./

Depends on how you define the word "genius". To me, the term is not taken lightly...kinda like the word "friend". Some consider every person on their Facebook page a friend. Not I.

James Brown? My verdict's still out on him. Was he a HARDWOKER? YES! A good dancer?YES! A soulful performer?YUP YUP!

Music genius? Shoulder shrug.

^^ You consider Jimi a genius and Sly not? I do think if YOU don't believe it, that's on you but to me Sly was. And IMHO so was James.

[Edited 6/13/11 12:45pm]

Karen71 said:

minneapolisFunq said:

Is James Brown not a "musical genius"?

This thread is dumb./

Depends on how you define the word "genius". To me, the term is not taken lightly...kinda like the word "friend". Some consider every person on their Facebook page a friend. Not I.

James Brown? My verdict's still out on him. Was he a HARDWOKER? YES! A good dancer?YES! A soulful performer?YUP YUP!

Music genius? Shoulder shrug.

I hate 2 say it................but I agree and I LOVE James music.

Timmy84 said:

^^ You consider Jimi a genius and Sly not? I do think if YOU don't believe it, that's on you but to me Sly was. And IMHO so was James.

[Edited 6/13/11 12:45pm]

And that's absolutely fine. We really can agree to disagree on this. Apparently, we define the term "genius" differently. I will also admit, however, that I need to listen to more of Sly's stuff. I'll check out the songs you posted (started listening but switched the page to comment.)

Jimi was a heck of a guitar player but as a songwriter both Sly and James were better.

You could make a good argument that James had a lot of help from his band but the man is widely credited with inventing an entire genre of music. That qualifies him as a genius as far as I'm concerned.

It may be true that James' best attribute was his work ethic but look at the quality of that work. For a good fifteen years (1960-1975) he was rarely absent from the R & B singles charts and the vast majority of those singles hold up today as good/great songs. The amazing thing about James was that he was so good for so long.

[Edited 6/13/11 13:26pm]

Karen71 said:

alphastreet said:

Would you be even asking this question if he was Dylan?

ABSOLUTELY!

If I finally discover an artist's music, check out some vids, see people rave about what a "genius" he is when I don't see it, I'd ask those in the know WHAT AM I MISSING? WHAT MADE HIM A GENIUS?

If you're a lifelong fan, you should be able to tell me.

Truth is, this is the first time I've seen the behavior of an artist obviously high as a kite being considered "genius". Usually, we just say that person is HIGH on drugs and call it a day.

[Edited 6/12/11 15:09pm]

Please stop with these post. You can find lots of footage of Sly playing instuments and on a lot of cuts he played all the instruments. He invented Funk/Rock and I know the Rock snobs do not consider that important but it is. Without Sly I doubt we would have Prince and many other great artist. Sly is hugh in the grand scale of the music world of the 1960s. In addtion, to answer your question he is a musical genius and a junkie. Nothing new about this in the music industry.

Karen71 said:

alphastreet said:

Would you be even asking this question if he was Dylan?

ABSOLUTELY!

If I finally discover an artist's music, check out some vids, see people rave about what a "genius" he is when I don't see it, I'd ask those in the know WHAT AM I MISSING? WHAT MADE HIM A GENIUS?

If you're a lifelong fan, you should be able to tell me.

Truth is, this is the first time I've seen the behavior of an artist obviously high as a kite being considered "genius". Usually, we just say that person is HIGH on drugs and call it a day.

[Edited 6/12/11 15:09pm]

Please stop with these post. You can find lots of footage of Sly playing instuments and on a lot of cuts he played all the instruments. He invented Funk/Rock and I know the Rock snobs do not consider that important but it is. Without Sly I doubt we would have Prince and many other great artist. Sly is hugh in the grand scale of the music world of the 1960s. In addtion, to answer your question he is a musical genius and a junkie. Nothing new about this in the music industry.

I agree that he was doing something very different for those times in the 2 songs that were posted.

FYI: I asked my mother the same question I posed on here to all of those who were around in Sly's heyday. (Once I realized those people would be around my mother & Sly's age I realized I wouldn't be getting an answer. What are the chances people their ages would be visiting message boards? )

Anyways....She gave me a very interesting answer.

She stated that when she watched his performances during those times she assumed he was drunk. The common assumption in the black community at the time (yes I am black) was that Whites did drugs; Blacks were alcoholics. She thought he'd been drinking before the performance and said that most people were quite naive about hard drugs during that time. It seems rockers did tons of drugs back then but only talked and wrote about those wild times decades later.

By the way, let me clarify my initial post:

The question about being a "dumb a** druggie" was not in relation to his music but to his BEHAVIOR.

It was his erratic BEHAVIOR that was blamed on his 'genius".

I completely understand that a person can be gifted in their art...but an a**hole in their personal lives.

Karen71 said:

By the way, let me clarify my initial post:

The question about being a "dumb a** druggie" was not in relation to his music but to his BEHAVIOR.

It was his erratic BEHAVIOR that was blamed on his 'genius".

I completely understand that a person can be gifted in their art...but an a**hole in their personal lives.

Ok Karen71, hold up...

I agree with mostly everything people have stated regarding your dilemma with the legacy and personal life with Sly Stone. I don't understand how his erratic behavior was blamed on his genius. I personally think that Sly & The Family Stone had their enduring run, where they ruled, innovated and changed the landscape of popular music. But at the same time, his personal life and demons took over, even as Sly reached his mighty peak and things started to decline from there. Let's not overlook that the drama of a polarized record label (Epic Records), the straining events of the Civil Rights Movement, the pressures of the Black Panther Party, the end of the utopian dreams of the 1960s, and the realization of the tragic realities of 1970s decadence were all associated with Sly's failure to actually keep himself afloat and not letting his demons take over. The one thing that remains unfortunate about Sly Stone is that he probably will never be taken seriously again, as he seems more like a novelty now more than ever. Years of drug abuse, depression and hard living have definitely deteriorated him, but he remains both a legend and living testimony. Like he once sang in "If You Want Me To Stay": "I wish I could get the message over to you now." His message remains solidified in the totality of his musical legacy, but it is blurred as it pertains to the man he has become today. As much as I have to admit it, he will never get his true props until the day he leaves this earth and that is as devastating as a heart attack!

silverchild said:

Karen71 said:

By the way, let me clarify my initial post:

The question about being a "dumb a** druggie" was not in relation to his music but to his BEHAVIOR.

It was his erratic BEHAVIOR that was blamed on his 'genius".

I completely understand that a person can be gifted in their art...but an a**hole in their personal lives.

Ok Karen71, hold up...

I agree with mostly everything people have stated regarding your dilemma with the legacy and personal life with Sly Stone. I don't understand how his erratic behavior was blamed on his genius. I personally think that Sly & The Family Stone had their enduring run, where they ruled, innovated and changed the landscape of popular music. But at the same time, his personal life and demons took over, even as Sly reached his mighty peak and things started to decline from there. Let's not overlook that the drama of a polarized record label (Epic Records), the straining events of the Civil Rights Movement, the pressures of the Black Panther Party, the end of the utopian dreams of the 1960s, and the realization of the tragic realities of 1970s decadence were all associated with Sly's failure to actually keep himself afloat and not letting his demons take over. The one thing that remains unfortunate about Sly Stone is that he probably will never be taken seriously again, as he seems more like a novelty now more than ever. Years of drug abuse, depression and hard living have definitely deteriorated him, but he remains both a legend and living testimony. Like he once sang in "If You Want Me To Stay": "I wish I could get the message over to you now." His message remains solidified in the totality of his musical legacy, but it is blurred as it pertains to the man he has become today. As much as I have to admit it, he will never get his true props until the day he leaves this earth and that is as devastating as a heart attack!

silverchild said:

Karen71 said:

By the way, let me clarify my initial post:

The question about being a "dumb a** druggie" was not in relation to his music but to his BEHAVIOR.

It was his erratic BEHAVIOR that was blamed on his 'genius".

I completely understand that a person can be gifted in their art...but an a**hole in their personal lives.

Ok Karen71, hold up...

I agree with mostly everything people have stated regarding your dilemma with the legacy and personal life with Sly Stone. I don't understand how his erratic behavior was blamed on his genius. I personally think that Sly & The Family Stone had their enduring run, where they ruled, innovated and changed the landscape of popular music. But at the same time, his personal life and demons took over, even as Sly reached his mighty peak and things started to decline from there. Let's not overlook that the drama of a polarized record label (Epic Records), the straining events of the Civil Rights Movement, the pressures of the Black Panther Party, the end of the utopian dreams of the 1960s, and the realization of the tragic realities of 1970s decadence were all associated with Sly's failure to actually keep himself afloat and not letting his demons take over. The one thing that remains unfortunate about Sly Stone is that he probably will never be taken seriously again, as he seems more like a novelty now more than ever. Years of drug abuse, depression and hard living have definitely deteriorated him, but he remains both a legend and living testimony. Like he once sang in "If You Want Me To Stay": "I wish I could get the message over to you now." His message remains solidified in the totality of his musical legacy, but it is blurred as it pertains to the man he has become today. As much as I have to admit it, he will never get his true props until the day he leaves this earth and that is as devastating as a heart attack!

But I think the man (and the band) HAVE gotten their props. That's evident by the fact that most (of you) believe him to be a musical genius and acknowledge his innovation and contribution to music. The induction into the RNR Hall of Fame solidifies his mark on the music world.

And we have to be fair to the man (AND music lovers), even if his demons had not taken over, his reign would've been long over by now. No one stays at their peak. Some artists and big bands like Aretha & the Rolling Stones may have a huge following, but when's the last time they've had a #1? It's all about Justin Beiber, Beyonce & Rihanna now. (shudder)

Sly fanatics have deluded themselves into thinking that if he got his act together yesterday and put out an album today it would be quadruple plantinum tomorrow. Truth is he wouldn't be the Sly of '70 even without the drugs. (He might, however, look better. ) Something happened to Lauryn Hill and she hasn't been able to recapture the magic of The Miseducation just 10 or so years out. Here we're expecting Sly to do what he did more 40 years later.

Timmy84 said:

Drugs don't make you a genius anyways. Sly was a genius from day one. Even fucked up, he created some masterpieces but drugs didn't contribute to it. It might've contributed to his eventual downfall but it didn't play a role in the music until he had nothing else to say and that was around 1979-ish.

I agree!

Karen71 said:

silverchild said:

Ok Karen71, hold up...

I agree with mostly everything people have stated regarding your dilemma with the legacy and personal life with Sly Stone. I don't understand how his erratic behavior was blamed on his genius. I personally think that Sly & The Family Stone had their enduring run, where they ruled, innovated and changed the landscape of popular music. But at the same time, his personal life and demons took over, even as Sly reached his mighty peak and things started to decline from there. Let's not overlook that the drama of a polarized record label (Epic Records), the straining events of the Civil Rights Movement, the pressures of the Black Panther Party, the end of the utopian dreams of the 1960s, and the realization of the tragic realities of 1970s decadence were all associated with Sly's failure to actually keep himself afloat and not letting his demons take over. The one thing that remains unfortunate about Sly Stone is that he probably will never be taken seriously again, as he seems more like a novelty now more than ever. Years of drug abuse, depression and hard living have definitely deteriorated him, but he remains both a legend and living testimony. Like he once sang in "If You Want Me To Stay": "I wish I could get the message over to you now." His message remains solidified in the totality of his musical legacy, but it is blurred as it pertains to the man he has become today. As much as I have to admit it, he will never get his true props until the day he leaves this earth and that is as devastating as a heart attack!

But I think the man (and the band) HAVE gotten their props. That's evident by the fact that most (of you) believe him to be a musical genius and acknowledge his innovation and contribution to music. The induction into the RNR Hall of Fame solidifies his mark on the music world.

And we have to be fair to the man (AND music lovers), even if his demons had not taken over, his reign would've been long over by now. No one stays at their peak. Some artists and big bands like Aretha & the Rolling Stones may have a huge following, but when's the last time they've had a #1? It's all about Justin Beiber, Beyonce & Rihanna now. (shudder)

Sly fanatics have deluded themselves into thinking that if he got his act together yesterday and put out an album today it would be quadruple plantinum tomorrow. Truth is he wouldn't be the Sly of '70 even without the drugs. (He might, however, look better. ) Something happened to Lauryn Hill and she hasn't been able to recapture the magic of The Miseducation just 10 or so years out. Here we're expecting Sly to do what he did more 40 years later.

Even though Sly & The Family Stone has gotten their props from the industry and many music admirers, I still don't think that their recogniton is wide-reaching. I mean, I think alot of people know hits such as "Dance To The Music," "Everyday People" and "Family Affair", but there is so much more to Sly's legacy and contribution to both American popular music and Black popular music. Sure hip-hop heads have sampled their stuff endlessly and folks use their songs to advertise products in commercials, but that doesn't even scratch the surface to his nor the Family Stone's enduring legacy. I mean the stuff he was doing from '67 to around '74 was just irresistible. Their run from 1967-1974 completely changed the landscape of music, period! Like someone once said, there was music before Sly & The Family Stone and after Sly & The Family Stone.

Now regarding Sly today...I don't think people would buy into it much. If he was to put out that highly-anticipated album today, it would be similar to Aretha of now. People would buy it, but it would just be any other release, nothing too spectacular. So I agree with you there Karen71, but I honestly don't think Sly will ever put out an album's worth of new material ever again. I think Sly knows what would happen. How many people were actually impressed by the diaster of a Grammy tribute back in 2007? It was a ploy to promote a highly-anticipated reissue campaign that was coming out later.

But I would like to ask a question Karen71. I still don't understand the point of this thread you created. If you know that Sly had a musically-commanding and engrossing run and has been in a decline musically and career-wise since the mid-70s, why are you bringing up his demons and considering that he must be a "dumbass drug addict"? I find it crazy that you're making a bigger deal on his personal life in the past and present, but at the same time, you're stating that you don't understand what makes him a genius. Sure, Sly has been a wreck since the 70s, but does that take away from his musical legacy? Sure life invokes art in some way, but tragedy and mishaps do happen. Sly put himself through some hardships that have made him the person he is today. He can't get mad with anyone but himself on that, but he has made his mark on music. I think that is what I will personally remember him for the most. Even the stuff he made post-Small Talk has a remarkable place in his catalog of work. So, maybe you can elaborate what your point is in this thread????

[Edited 6/13/11 20:07pm]

Karen71 said:

By the way, let me clarify my initial post:

The question about being a "dumb a** druggie" was not in relation to his music but to his BEHAVIOR.

It was his erratic BEHAVIOR that was blamed on his 'genius".

I completely understand that a person can be gifted in their art...but an a**hole in their personal lives.

Didn't you just described Prince in that statement?

Karen71 said:

minneapolisFunq said:

Is James Brown not a "musical genius"?

This thread is dumb./

Depends on how you define the word "genius". To me, the term is not taken lightly...kinda like the word "friend". Some consider every person on their Facebook page a friend. Not I.

James Brown? My verdict's still out on him. Was he a HARDWOKER? YES! A good dancer?YES! A soulful performer?YUP YUP!

Music genius? Shoulder shrug.

JB is a musical genius.

Sly Stone was a brilliant brilliant singer, songwriter, and musician but during his time but wasn't the exception to the rule, hence NEXT. I don't want to be a kill joy but the blah blah about his body of work hasn't been appreciated or hasn't received his due is pure fiction He was derailed by a substance abuse problem and the artist, bands, singers, songwriters and musicians played on. If Sister Franklin, Stevie Wonder, Al Green, or any of the countless artist had crashed and burn as he, it would've been the samething. NEXT

FUCK PRINCE.ORG THIS IS A DUMBASS THEAD that they will question a genius but have pop tart threads running rapid crazy