Shaggy has said that Michael does indeed date women. Just not all the time. You know, like normal people. And as for behaving like a kid sometimes? Well, so-fucking-what!!! So he likes to have a bit of childish fun at times like a lot of adults do. Big deal. And as for those of you who think it's about time he got over his past? Sometimes things damage you beyond total repair. That's life. Trust me. I know!

Cloudbuster said:

That's fine, but MJ himself is the one stating that "normal" relationships with women don't interest him -- regardless of what Shaggy says. There's a disconnect there.


But, MJ's definition of childish fun seems to go way beyond that of most adults. It seems to carry the implication to children -- as 12-year-old Gavin puts it in the interview -- that people are adults when they say they are.

That's pat enough when discussing MJ, who's 40. But there also stands the possibility that MJ says this to his underage playmates as a way to "normalize" his abnormal relationships with them. Someone with far more expertise than I in assessing pedophile profiles would be able to tell whether that "we're all adults" rationalization is used to silence child victims' doubts.



I don't think we're suggesting that he gets over his past in the sense of acting like it didn't affect. I'm suggesting that he come to grips with the abnormality of his interaction with children and, if he is in fact abusing children, to accept responsibility for his behavior and get help.

gman1966 said:

PSST...GNAM1966, DON'T SAY I TOLD YOU THIS BUT...

You've posted a message in the following area:
Forums > Music: Non-Prince
Discuss other artists here

Expect to find artists other than The Purple One discussed here - including "freaking Madonna".

If you want to discuss Prince, and Prince solely, go to this board:
Forums > Prince: Music and More
Discuss Prince and his music here

PS: No worries amigo. This minor indiscretion will remain our little secret.

ThreadBare said:

"Abnormality of his interaction with children."

What the Fuck?!?

If more adults interacted with children there would probably be less fuck-ups in the world.

How Michael interacts with children is probably different to the way that you interact with children. However, who is to say which is the right way and which isn't. As long as it is a loving, caring and nuturing environment nothing else should matter.

I Just want MY MJ Albums,Rare Tracks&TOur&then all will be fine with me.on His Personal Life:Who Knows? but it seems alot of people care.the truth is MJ is in a Land of Make Believe&so are most people in Show Business.unless something truly bad goes down you can be as Eccentric as you wanna be.Mike is like a Kid in Many Ways which has Drawn soem folks in&also made many look at Him Oddly.but on the other Hand is a Shrewed Business Man who is no Joke in the Boardroom handling what He has to do.He is a Cat that has many sides to Him&you never know which one you are gonna get? but I can say that about so Many Other Entertainers the difference being nobody else has cared about them 30 years later in there Career but they all got things that would keep your eyes glassy as well.

Cloudbuster said:

You're missing the point, CB: I'm not saying more adults shouldn't interact more with their children. I agree. I think Jackson raises a wonderful point about that in the documentary.

None of that addresses his contradictory (and often-delusional) concepts of age, identity and sexuality. I think most parents would like a person who'll spend time with their children to be clear on those 3 segments of his personality.

MattUK said:

I'm aware of their similarities. Do their similarities matter enough to me to always discuss them as a threesome? NO. I dig them all to a certain degree but I'm on Prince's board for a reason. And before anyone says it I know that I could stay in the Prince music forum & avoid this one. The problem isn't that I don't want MJ or Madge discussed at all, I just don't understand discussing them CONSTANTLY. I think MJ/Madge fans on this board want everyone to share their enthusiasm for those artists & they get all bent when people don't - what's that about? Whatever, none of this crap matters anyway...

CalhounSq said:

Yeah, but CSq, the point of this thread was to give Michael Jackson fans a chance to explain what I've often thought were irreconcilable aspects of his persona.

Threads that annoy or don't interest you are easy to avoid -- that's the beauty of the Org.

(durn edit)
[This message was edited Fri Feb 7 10:10:46 PST 2003 by ThreadBare]

First, abusive histories ARE very often the springboards from which pathologic behavior start. I’d wager this is what’s going on with Michael – with his arrested adult identity, with his apparent body dismorphic disorder, yada yada yada. Still, through the physical and psychological abuse, stolen childhood and even stolen adulthood (he can’t even grow a beard without people criticizing him), no one’s mentioned Michael ever having been sexually molested. No psychological precedent has been set there, and so while I’d think it totally reasonable to look at the circumstantial evidence and think, “this guy looks like a pedophile,” we have no one-to-one behavioral correlation while we’re all being armchair psychologists. In other words, a red flag (even a pretty bright red flag) and a smoking gun are two different things.

Anyhoo, Mike DOES both claim to prefer childlike activities to sexual ones yet grabs his crotch and grinds in videos, sings about sexual feelings, etc. But aside from the fact we make a mistake of equating a person’s onstage persona or artistic output with that person’s everyday sensibilities, MJ never said he’s COMPLETELY oblivious to sex.

First, the man has an audience – a largely adult one. Kids nowadays have a shitload of disposable income, but I’m sure MJ has gotten a lot farther singing about romance than he would have singing about the cow jumping over the moon. Anyways, it’s not like all, or even half, of his songs are sexually charged. For Pete’s sake, he’s also sang about everything from horror movies to pet rodents.

Secondly, he may very well have BOTH adult/sexual and innocent, childlike sensibilities in his head… and they don’t necessarily have to taint one-another. Prince, for example, has traditionally claimed sexuality as a spiritual expression but still wanted to “fuck the taste out of [a girl’s] mouth.” Those thoughts are divergent, but they exist pretty intact within the same person. As Walt Whitman suggested, if we are large enough, we’re gonna contain multitudes.

As an aside, I’d think that if Michael Jackson were a pedophile, 1) he’d either be resourceful enough to completely get away with it, or 2) the entire world would know without a doubt…

First of all, he’s worth at least $300 million. He could have cute, anonymous kids of all shapes, sizes, ages and nationalities flown in from all over the world as sexual toys – entire families even – or he could fly to them. He could even afford to have the right people paid off or killed to protect his secret. Certainly that international black market exists. Bashir himself said it’d be a challenge for even the FBI to infiltrate Michael’s “fortress” of privacy. So why should we think he’d instead risk everything by sleeping with the likes of Emmanuel Lewis, McCauley Caulken or any number of middle-class American children whose parents KNOW their kids regularly share a bedroom with MJ?

On the other hand, given that he IS worth so much money and such an icon, don’t you think if he were a pedophile (and make no mistake: If he were, he wouldn’t be screwing 1 or 2 kids every other year, he’d have a CONSTANT craving for sex with children), an avalanche of people could corroborate any allegation, or perhaps spill the beans after unsuccessfully trying to extort money from him or gain recognition for toppling his thrown? In his 44 years, though, he’s had a single questionable allegation. That seems odd to me.

Lammastide said:

Wonderful post!!! Thanks!!!

I don't know how Bashir got this crap about the FBI possibly finding it hard to enter Neverland. Sure, the place is off limits to those who have not been invited in, but no-one is above the law in that way. If there was any evidence or any claimed victims, access could not be refused. Access WAS NOT refused in 1993 and evidence was not found.

ThreadBare said:

Another beauty of the Org is that I can post where I want & say what I want.

If you notice my original question, I wasn't trying to shut down MJ fans from explaining their views on "irreconcilable aspects of his persona." I never said this thread didn't interest me, never said it annoyed me. I was asking why they (the 3 of them) are discussed as if they were once a supergroup that parted ways. I don't instantly think of MJ or Maddy when I think of Prince & vice versa.

Sorry if you don't like my question or my "input" is unwanted but I type what I feel & will probably continue to do so. Hope you don't mind... it's the beauty of the Org, right?

CalhounSq said:

And, that's a beautiful post. Just agree with me, CSq. LOL

ThreadBare said:

Thank you



I DO agree w/ you - the Org is very beautiful




stubborn edit.
[This message was edited Sun Feb 9 4:15:50 PST 2003 by CalhounSq]

Lammastide said:

$299 mil..he bought all that gaudy tacky furniture in Vegas.

Joshy84au said:

yeah bit a lot are not getting to important points like this one is




Why? because this one is somehow..different?I want to see all of his people debate this perons question who posted this. Dont worry we can always get back to the what's your favorite song threads. They will always be here.

Can you be both a childish Peter Pan playing with dolls and manequins and yet be mature enough to raise living children as a parent? Evidently not.

The surgery denial was bizare as in the past he had used the supposed human fireball incident filming a Pepsi advert as an excuse for needing all the plastic surgery he's had.

I think in short he forgets what he's saying, what's true and what's fantasy so it's probably best he doesn't do interview in future unless it's all well scripted out like previous ones, like that sham with Lisa Marie Presley...

Ellie said:

Selling Wolf tickets to Sensanalize the Matter.I don't Respect the way Bashir covers a story.

I just watched the special on tape & came to a realization - I don't think this dude is molesting kids. Yes, it's totally possible BUT it's also possible that the parents of the kid who sued back in '93 capitalized on the circumstances & knew it was too easy to make him look guilty.

I think MJ's emotional development is arrested at some young age, whenever it was that he started getting really, REALLY emotionally damaged. He considers himself a kid, he acts like a kid, his residence is a playground, he's surrounded by total fantasy. I think when he has kids over, HE looks at it like a slumber party - a sleepover w/ friends, his peers (as odd as that sounds). He's not THINKING like an adult when a kid asks, "can I stay in your room?" All he knows is that some kid who adores the shit outta him is clamoring to spend as much time w/ him as possible & he doesn't want to disappoint the kid by telling him no. Maybe he never had slumber parties when he was growing up since he had to work so much. Did he even have friends? Or did he just have his brothers who loved him BUT teased him & were probably jealous???

We have to remember how excited these kids are to see him & spend time with him, so I can understand him saying, "you take the bed, I'll sleep on the floor." Totally plausible & makes sense, it's not as ugly as they've advertised it to be & it doesn't have to be sexual. However, the fact that he HAS slept IN bed with various children is where he needs to be shaken & told he is indeed an adult & should not be sharing a bed WITH children!! I know he doesn't understand that somehow & I'm trying to keep in mind his attitude of being a child himself & of it being harmless, but someone needs to shake his ass. You would think the lawsuit would have cured him of that years ago...

I know MJ is business savy & has some awareness of himself as an adult, a businessman, a sexual being. When he talked about (was it Brazilians? can't remember which people, but insert them ___ here) being beautiful people, he kinda gave a "whooo" the intent of which could have very well been sexual. I think it's very possible that he's asexual. Regardless of how he conducts himself w/ women, I now doubt he's going after these kids in a sexual manner. He seems almost incapable of it, but anything's possible. As far as songs he writes about women & videos in which he pursues women - FANTASY, I doubt he's even interested. The man blushes @ that stuff, described the Tatum O'Neal episode as a "sexual" experience in which he covered his eyes - COME ON! That wasn't even sexual, dude has to be a virgin w/ silliness like that...

All in all, I feel sorry for him like I always have. I'm not turning a new leaf or anything but I do understand a bit better his relationship to & love for kids, and I've been reminded of his gorgeous voice, his talent & an innocence about him that's been damaged & twisted. I find it plausible that he paid off that kid just to get the case out of his life - definitely a questionable move but still plausible on some levels. He still has time to heal his soul, I just WISH, oh how I WISH he could have loved himself enough to keep him from destroying his appearance. I wish I could turn back time & stop him after one surgery - that was enough to make him feel better about himself & keep him looking like the normal, attractive man he was. Hell, I might still be in love w/ him had he not gotten so off track, poor thing...

Just thought I would give kudos out to all the orgers on this thread!

Great job of debating the issue, regardless that it strayed for a bit, and not getting into flaming...now if only all thread posts could proceed this way.

Such hateration, Cal.

Supernova said:

Ain't no hateration or holleration up in this dancerie! :O

I JUST saw Barbershop for the first time, not too bad, cliche's up the yang but Cedric had a few good lines in there. I like that one (who knew a Mary J. song could be so funny?) and the one about his part, LOLOL!!

CalhounSq said:

I have yet to see it.

I saw part of Cedric's tv show last week and was surprised how funny I thought it was.

MJ is gonna drop his Version of the Interview Next Thrusday.should be interesting.

mistermaxxx said:

See, this is where people start to think he's full of shit & more calculating than his Peter Pan side would have you believe... Could he be smart enough to have anticipated the negative fallout & planned the counter intv. all along? I'm not saying this is the case, but given that he does lie when he wants & LOVES pub, anything's possible...

Supernova said:

You're not missing much it's LOADED w/ every cliche in the book but Ced is funny @ times, and Cube is damn cute

I kinda fell off Cedric's TV show, it was weak in the beginning. Watched it tonight though, it seems to be getting better

Everybody lies when it suits them.