The other thread got too long ............ Continuing with a new one.

Previous thread http://prince.org/msg/8/351002

Please use this thread to discuss everything and anything MJ.

Any created threads will automatically get the and be directed to this sticky.

Take note folks --- requests for copies for songs in any variation of asking/hinting etc. Temp bans will be handed out generously, I shit you not.

Absolutely no illegal file sharing (via yousendit or any other site). Please be aware that the moderators here strictly enforce this.

^^^ All I can comment on that is that "Beat It" works surprisingly well when played as a ballad, although the melody has to be altered somewhat. The chord progression on "Beat It" is quite simple, but there's something about it that makes it very attractive to play on the keys / guitar. The alternation between those chords is far from ground-breaking, yet it does have a unique feel.

Thank you, but I was kinda hoping that someone would go a little more indepth into some of the chord progrssions of his other works as well. I am aware that a lot of them are really simple, but I thought it would still be nice to look at them and still wonder if the progression he chose had any significance to the song itself as pointed out in that example.

...I guess the best way to try and compare it is when I study an painter's or visual artist's work, I look at everything. I look at technique (brushstokes, etc.), colors, composition, and etc. I need to know why the artist made all of those decisions in that particular piece. I need to understand it. Unfortunately for a lot of times I can't see the original draft or the underpainting (sometimes I can) or whatever so it's best I work with what I have in front of me. Even for the simplest things I study hard, because I want to know what made it work or why that artist was able to think of doing that and I wasn't able to. There's a good chance that I will never understand a lot of decisions that the artist made, because I am not the original artist. Yet, I can, at least, be able to not only critique it properly, but, at least, take what I admire from the work and use it for inspiration for my own. Sometimes I try to learn a little bit more about the artist because it does help me to understand the work a bit more also.

Does this not work the same for music? Or is it just in MJ's case it's so simple that it's a no brainer?

bboy87 said:

Alright, as it seems that the estate IS in fact checking out the forums and trying to get feedback from fans AND after seeing what other fans have said what they'd like to see released, I'd just want to give my opinion on what would NOT be released

i sure hope they start to listen and release the kind of bad dvd the fans are craving for. other than that i cant imagine my self buying anything post humously ever again

to answer the question from last thread, Kells said he write "Not Feeling This Love" for MJ in a BET special.He never said if he recorded it or not ... and about those 6 songs, any names?

Unholyalliance said:

Thank you, but I was kinda hoping that someone would go a little more indepth into some of the chord progrssions of his other works as well. I am aware that a lot of them are really simple, but I thought it would still be nice to look at them and still wonder if the progression he chose had any significance to the song itself as pointed out in that example.

To be honest I think the example you posted was mostly the result of the author's own imagination. Each complete "line" of the melody of "Beat It" resolves to a note that's just one of the basic notes suggested by the chord progression. Michael obviously didn't know much music theory and he wrote songs by singing them to a tape recorder. Then he had musicians helping him to come up with the harmonic structure for the pieces, trying out different chords on keyboards etc. The chord progressions can also become a bit more exotic when someone has originally worked them out on, for example, keyboards and then someone else is going to turn them into a guitar riff. That'll introduce inversions, harmonic extensions etc. - so making a big deal out of something like that often misses the point.

There's just a lot of trial and error involved in these things, not to mention too many other individuals involved in the case of Michael's music to be able to tell what was going on in his head. I doubt Michael himself really heard the harmonic extensions of chords or flat five substitutions in his head when he was singing to a tape recorder, or anything like that.

[Edited 2/11/11 7:14am]

Just wanted to say something that's on my mind (after I've been up all night working on a project ) that occured to me--that it is such a shame that two physically beautiful and talented people like Michael and Janet Jackson felt so unattractive about themselves and attempted to deal with their low self-images in different ways... Maybe it was because they were in the limelight from such an early age, with the media glaring in their faces on top of whatever family issues they had to deal with... And then people wanting more from them than they could possibly give... I just wonder why there was such a disconnect from their personal images of themselves from the ones that so many people saw...and still see...inwardly and outwardly. Beauty, unfortunately, many times does lie in the eye of the beholder...and the one who is so lovely does not see that in his or her self....

I think Michael just wanted to look like an androgynous cartoon character. He wanted to be larger than life (which is not to say he wouldn't have succeeded in that). People are always speaking about how he was insecure about his looks and that's why he went under the knife repeatedly. While that's probably not untrue, you have to consider what type of looks he wanted to have instead. He didn't want to look like the typical handsome man, he wanted a little bit of everything thrown in the mix. The transformation seems to have been complete by the time of Bad or Dangerous, so it was all downhill from there due to aging and whatever additional problems he had with his skin etc.

I might be wrong with all of this, but I don't get the impression that he repeatedly wanted to "perfect" himself. We don't know how much plastic surgery he went under during the last two decades of his life, but it seems to have been more "reconstructive" type of surgery than anything. He also seemed to be the most comfortable in the mode that we first saw in the "Remember The Time" video and that's the look he tried to maintain even when he wasn't in his early-30s anymore.

As for Janet, well, I don't know. Janet and Latoya, to me, seemed to want to model their looks after their brother. Latoya in particular, because she ended up looking really different from what she looked like when she was younger. Perhaps even more so than Michael.

Oh brother Although the rehearsal footage sounds interesting.

[Edited 2/11/11 10:46am]

novabrkr said:

I think Michael just wanted to look like an androgynous cartoon character. He wanted to be larger than life (which is not to say he wouldn't have succeeded in that). People are always speaking about how he was insecure about his looks and that's why he went under the knife repeatedly. While that's probably not untrue, you have to consider what type of looks he wanted to have instead. He didn't want to look like the typical handsome man, he wanted a little bit of everything thrown in the mix. The transformation seems to have been complete by the time of Bad or Dangerous, so it was all downhill from there due to aging and whatever additional problems he had with his skin etc.

I might be wrong with all of this, but I don't get the impression that he repeatedly wanted to "perfect" himself. We don't know how much plastic surgery he went under during the last two decades of his life, but it seems to have been more "reconstructive" type of surgery than anything. He also seemed to be the most comfortable in the mode that we first saw in the "Remember The Time" video and that's the look he tried to maintain even when he wasn't in his early-30s anymore.

As for Janet, well, I don't know. Janet and Latoya, to me, seemed to want to model their looks after their brother. Latoya in particular, because she ended up looking really different from what she looked like when she was younger. Perhaps even more so than Michael.

To a certain extent...I DO agree...

But I think vitiligo played a huge part on his plastic surgeries...he started wearing more and more make up, not just to even out his skin tone but to look more dramatic and extreme...hmm..

In any case, I don't think he looked necessarily "weird and ugly" after his surgeries like a lot of people say....

IT WAS THE HAIR!! WRONG DO!!

You know, when his hair was straight...during the court days and all that.....XD

(around 2000 to 2009 before concert rehearsals...)

Because I saw "This Is It" and he looked kinda cute with curly hair XD

He looked good for a 50 year old...

Michael's own confidence in his appearance (or lack there of) might be mirrored in the covers of his album.

OTW = 21 man MJ

Thriller = Confident MJ

Bad = strong MJ (though this was the first real evidence from a covers point of view of the effects of the vitiligo)

Dangerous = photographically MJ is not on the album.

HiStory = photographically MJ is not on the album

Blood On the Dance Floor = photographically MJ is not on the album

Invincible = we get a washed out picture with a digital eye.

One might argue that it was about trying to make the music first and foremost and not the way he looked, but I feel it was a greater reflection on how he felt about himself physically.

All that said - Dangerous remains my favourite cover as I love all the symbolism and allusions in it.

[img:$uid]http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6853/mikewilljackuup.png[/img:$uid]

One of my favorite pics of Michael. Check out that attitude! I like to call this one, "Mike will jack you up"

LittleBLUECorvette said:

to answer the question from last thread, Kells said he write "Not Feeling This Love" for MJ in a BET special.He never said if he recorded it or not ... and about those 6 songs, any names?

I'm not sure of the titles but MJ was indeed working with Kells for his new album before his passing. This is an old excerpt from August 2009 during an R Kelly interview

"Not Feeling the Love" could have been one of the 5 records

[Edited 2/11/11 22:31pm]

Emancipation89 said:

To a certain extent...I DO agree...

But I think vitiligo played a huge part on his plastic surgeries...he started wearing more and more make up, not just to even out his skin tone but to look more dramatic and extreme...hmm..

Yes. I agree with this. When he started wearing make-up on a daily basis it probably influenced his decisions on how far he could go with plastic surgery and even in his choice of clothing as well ("Since I got this thing, I might just as well..." ).

Swa said:

Michael's own confidence in his appearance (or lack there of) might be mirrored in the covers of his album.

OTW = 21 man MJ

Thriller = Confident MJ

Bad = strong MJ (though this was the first real evidence from a covers point of view of the effects of the vitiligo)

Dangerous = photographically MJ is not on the album.

HiStory = photographically MJ is not on the album

Blood On the Dance Floor = photographically MJ is not on the album

Invincible = we get a washed out picture with a digital eye.

One might argue that it was about trying to make the music first and foremost and not the way he looked, but I feel it was a greater reflection on how he felt about himself physically.

All that said - Dangerous remains my favourite cover as I love all the symbolism and allusions in it.

these are interesting points, for sure...

novabrkr said:

Emancipation89 said:

To a certain extent...I DO agree...

But I think vitiligo played a huge part on his plastic surgeries...he started wearing more and more make up, not just to even out his skin tone but to look more dramatic and extreme...hmm..

Yes. I agree with this. When he started wearing make-up on a daily basis it probably influenced his decisions on how far he could go with plastic surgery and even in his choice of clothing as well ("Since I got this thing, I might just as well..." ).

he began wearing makeup years before the vitiligo was recognizable to the general populace though... you could see that, during the triumph tour the vitiligo was taking hold, and you saw a lot of the makeup end up on his clothes, and on the microphone. i'm not sure if this is what you were referring to...

there was a discussion about arrangement and keys earlier (this is the stuff i am really interested in, in relation to discussions about michael). i am curious what people think are his greatest arrangements, of songs he is credited with authoring on his own. for me, his greatest piece is perhaps 'heartbreak hotel'. it begins with the prelude (arranged by jerry hey), then the blast of the horns, which accent themselves throughout the track... you have tito and david williams (with michael sembello and paul jackson, jr.) adding a counterpoint to ollie brown's (and nathan watts' bass) thump; and michael's sense of call and response in how he frames the lyrics. the narration is spot on, in relation to the minor keys. the base rhythm of the song slightly mirrors nat adderley's 'the other side' from 1966.

then you have the instrumental bridge, which to me, is one of the greatest pieces of modern music released in the past 30 years, of all times. you then have the bridge again, rounding out the song, following one of the greatest interludes in popular music as well, with greg phillinganes on the keys, surrounded by strings. this is truly, the mind of michael at work. it is undeniable. from reading stories of those who worked with him, i can visualize how this piece was crafted.

here is one of the live performances of the song... it actually does not take away from the brilliance of the original at all. this could be because phillinganes was the musical director for this tour. my favourite shows from this tour were the brisbane and yokohama shows.

other favourite arrangements/compositions of his for me are:

-childhood

-stranger in moscow

-earth song (one of the few tracks which had live drums in the HIStory/dangerous era)

-smooth criminal (i love michael's percussive mind, and use of layering)

MJJstudent said:

novabrkr said:

Yes. I agree with this. When he started wearing make-up on a daily basis it probably influenced his decisions on how far he could go with plastic surgery and even in his choice of clothing as well ("Since I got this thing, I might just as well..." ).

he began wearing makeup years before the vitiligo was recognizable to the general populace though... you could see that, during the triumph tour the vitiligo was taking hold, and you saw a lot of the makeup end up on his clothes, and on the microphone. i'm not sure if this is what you were referring to...

Yeah, it's too hard to tell what really motivated him with his decisions. I think I've had my monthly dose of Michael Jackson internet psychoanalysis with these comments. I'll stop.

novabrkr said:

MJJstudent said:

he began wearing makeup years before the vitiligo was recognizable to the general populace though... you could see that, during the triumph tour the vitiligo was taking hold, and you saw a lot of the makeup end up on his clothes, and on the microphone. i'm not sure if this is what you were referring to...

Yeah, it's too hard to tell what really motivated him with his decisions. I think I've had my monthly dose of Michael Jackson internet psychoanalysis with these comments. I'll stop.

hee hee... very true. no one will know what was happening in his mind but him.

Hey ya'll,my computer was broken for two f'n whole weeks!

Im glad to be back!

at finding out that Stacy Brown is Rebbie's manager. It's sad how MJ's own family will still work with those that made his life a living hell.

[Edited 2/12/11 13:31pm]

mookie said:

at finding out that Stacy Brown is Rebbie's manager. It's sad how MJ's own family will still work with those that made his life a living hell.

[Edited 2/12/11 13:31pm]

Remember when, during the trial, MJ realeased a statement saying Stacy Brown did not speak for him? Remember what did Rebbie the day after?

Stacy Brown has been her manager since the early 2000's, so it should not come as a surprise just like the junkie image should not (we all know Randy has been working/inventing it since Michael legitimately accused him of fraud and that Joe wants a settlement from AEG and the junkie image is the only way).

ViintageJunkiie said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

to answer the question from last thread, Kells said he write "Not Feeling This Love" for MJ in a BET special.He never said if he recorded it or not ... and about those 6 songs, any names?

I'm not sure of the titles but MJ was indeed working with Kells for his new album before his passing. This is an old excerpt from August 2009 during an R Kelly interview

"I recorded five joints for Michael Jackson," Kelly said, as we sat in the intimate recording studio nestled in the basement of his Chicago mansion. "This studio here is where Michael recorded. And we had been talking on the phone about his new album, and I was going to finish what Michael was doing at the time. We're going to get it out though. Michael liked the way I would try to sing the songs just like him." But before he concentrates on releasing the unfinished Jackson tunes, the 42-year-old R&B crooner is anticipating his own new CD, 'Untitled,' slated to drop Oct. 13.

"Not Feeling the Love" could have been one of the 5 records

[Edited 2/11/11 22:31pm]

Awesome 2 know, thank's for the info. Kells did say the songs will be put out (acording to the interview.) Maybe they'll be on the new record with the Dr. Dreeze joints that are confirmed on the interview on this page.

mookie said:

at finding out that Stacy Brown is Rebbie's manager. It's sad how MJ's own family will still work with those that made his life a living hell.

[Edited 2/12/11 13:31pm]

I agree. It just goes to show you how fucking CLUELESS his family is.

mookie said:

at finding out that Stacy Brown is Rebbie's manager. It's sad how MJ's own family will still work with those that made his life a living hell.

[Edited 2/12/11 13:31pm]

That's so messed up. Jermaine was supposed to release a tell-all book with him too but scraped the whole thing.

Free2BMe said:

mookie said:

at finding out that Stacy Brown is Rebbie's manager. It's sad how MJ's own family will still work with those that made his life a living hell.

[Edited 2/12/11 13:31pm]

I agree. It just goes to show you how fucking CLUELESS his family is.

They've been clueless for 27 years.

Free2BMe said:

[Edited 2/12/11 13:31pm]

I agree. It just goes to show you how fucking CLUELESS his family is.

You are so right. Here's a pic of Rebbie with Stacy Brown and Diane Dimond.

MJ FANS...I HAVE A QUESTION!!

Sorry to bring this up guys...But I had to ask,

http://www.youtube.com/wa...S0oI5Q8Kfc

I saw this on Youtube, and yes, this was put up by a hater.

But I heard this was true...Well, at least the fact that Geraldo Rivera went on Howard Stern's

radio show and did an interview with him after MJ passed away....

I thought Geraldo Rivera actually did an interview with MJ when he was struggling with the allegations in 2005? And Gerlado really was one of the few people in the media (and probably the only one from FOX) to believe MJ was completely innocent of all those charges, and stand by his side since the beginning of the trial till the end....

What was this about then? Do you think Geraldo was truthful when he said "Michael had a fake nose!" on Howard Stern's show?? I guess one can accept the fact that MJ was NEVER a criminal but still think he had too much plastic surgery done.....

But I'm more than willing to hear your opinions...So MJ fans plz let me know what you think of this interview....Even if this is really what Geraldo said, I'm still very hesitant believe it....

NaughtyKitty said:

[img:$uid]http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6853/mikewilljackuup.png[/img:$uid]

One of my favorite pics of Michael. Check out that attitude! I like to call this one, "Mike will jack you up"

i really like a lot of the photos from the 'bad' sessions. i think there was a lot of freedom he felt, after he fired his father as manager, and stopped touring with his brothers. he also moved out of havenhurst around this time. he was sitting on the top. t's as if he asserted himself in ways he previously could not. i enjoy studying photos of him from every era though. i love his hands- they are like an old man's. and he has the most beautiful eyes i have ever seen. they are quite sad, actually.