MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

Sounds like prog Genesis and Yes fans not liking Invisible Touch and Owner Of A Lonely Heart. Or Jefferson Airplane fans not liking Sara and We Built This City.

Are you kidding? Jefferson Starship sold-out with the track No Way Out. The damage was already done before they became Starship.

Timmy84 said:

Actually to be frank, when the labels noticed how much sales Whitney (and Lionel and Michael and Prince) got, the labels (and the artists themselves) decided to "follow" the leader. Like I said, if you decide to aim for the same music, then that don't make you any better. It's a label psychology. You wanna sell, you have to not want to be yourself. Sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. The Whitney model didn't last forever really.

Even with the existence of "The Whitney Model" in the 1980's, Madonna was still the main woman that Whtiney had to deal with as far as popularity and album sales goes. And by the time Janet finally hit crossover paydirt with the Control album, the pop culture audience were given at least 3 options for who they wanted the most. "The Whitney Model" would never been the only gig in town.

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

Oh, man, it's really sad what Kool and the Gang turned in to. They were one of the funkiest bands of the '70s but today all they are remembered for are the pop hits of the '80s.

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

[Edited 3/3/11 16:08pm]

Kool & The Gang were gunning for Michael Jackson-type of success. That's exactly what they tried to do.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Sounds like prog Genesis and Yes fans not liking Invisible Touch and Owner Of A Lonely Heart. Or Jefferson Airplane fans not liking Sara and We Built This City.

Jefferson Airplane's transformation was way more dramatic than that of Genesis'. Genesis made it CLEAR why they changed their sound (they wanted the pussy ).

[Edited 3/3/11 16:20pm]

Genesis didn't change their sound as much as they were really taking the Phil Collins sound and make it THE new sound for the band itself. The title track for Genesis' Invisible Touch album could have easily counted as a track on a Phil Collins album.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

Jefferson Airplane's transformation was way more dramatic than that of Genesis'. Genesis made it CLEAR why they changed their sound (they wanted the pussy ).

[Edited 3/3/11 16:20pm]

Genesis didn't change their sound as much as they were really taking the Phil Collins sound and make it THE new sound for the band itself. The title track for Genesis' Invisible Touch album could have easily counted as a track on a Phil Collins album.

True. "In Too Deep" was definitely more of a Phil solo track too.

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Genesis didn't change their sound as much as they were really taking the Phil Collins sound and make it THE new sound for the band itself. The title track for Genesis' Invisible Touch album could have easily counted as a track on a Phil Collins album.

True. "In Too Deep" was definitely more of a Phil solo track too.

Mike + The Mechanics were straight pop too.

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

[Edited 3/3/11 16:08pm]

I first got into them in 1979 with "Ladies Night" and loved it. I also loved "Celebration" the next year and "Take My Heart", "Get Down On It", and "Steppin' Out" the year after that. When I considered them slipping is when I heard shit like "Joanna" and "Misled" the year after that. "Fresh" was decent but weak compared to earlier work and I loved "Tonite" and a few years later, "Victory".

I had previously heard "Jungle Boogie" and "Hollywood Swinging" but was too young to know who the group was. I really first got into music myself and buying music beginning in 1978 and 1979 so I loved a lot of stuff that Kool and The Gang did from that time on up through the early 1980s. I first heard one of their earlier songs "Rated X" in one of Finess's mixes a few years ago and thought it was one of the funkiest jams I had ever heard. I like a lot of their pre JT stuff and there's also a lot of it I don't care for also just like the latter JT stuff.

Ooops, I forgot about "Open Sesame". I first heard that on the second album I ever bought, the "Saturday Night Fever" soundtrack and loved it also.

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Misled simply because of the awesomely bad video that is still worth watching on YouTube. . But Joanna on the other hand is definitely weak sauce. It's one of the few of Kool & The Gang's greatest hits that I don't care for.

[Edited 3/3/11 19:21pm]

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

Ice-T had the power...

That's because he didn't take no shit. HUSTLERS don't take no shit. Whitney was NOT a hustler. DIFFERENCE!

Lots of the old school artists were hustlers, some of them got what they want and some had to half-play the system before getting back at the label president. You forget Stevie Wonder was an ultimate hustler. He can play nice and then before you know it, he'll tell you to PAY up, he'll challenge you to come up with whatever it is you demand and then he'll tell you what he WANTS and before you know it, BAM!

Whitney just doesn't have that power. Not even today. She just doesn't.

yup. if he wasn't, he'd be playing on a tour of casinos today. you don't make 'songs in the key of life' (or even 'where i'm coming from') without being a hustler. mama lula raised that boy right. they were like, 'y'all better gimme that money when STEVIE turns 21!' it's like STEVIE, lula and their people were the few who actually seemed to have read the contract.

STEVIE was also one of the only artists there to get songwriting and production credits, as well as played instruments. for him to do that and be so young; it was like the coup of all coups at motown. HAAAAAAAAAAAIL YEAH, STEVIE was a hustler.

michael was a hustler too. the biggest example of that is the acquisition of ATV. how is it some 25-year old black kid outbids some white corporate heads (and mc cartney) for one of the most lucratve catalogs of all times? he certainly didn't do it by being nice about it. for better and for worse, michael had hustlers in his 'camp'- yetnikoff, dileo, branca...

and even if it backfired sometimes (and it certainly did), michael milked the system/industry. even if people hated him, they STILL watched the interviews he did with oprah, bashir and all them. people STILL watched the super bowl performance. those who tried to hate still invoked his name, and stood outside trying to get a glimpse of him when he scratched his ass.

and his brothers try to be hustlers, but organizations didn't want them unless michael was involved. so they tried to play michael, and he was just civil about it- 'i love my family but no, i will not be performing with them. it gots my own thang, thank you very much.' that's ice cold, man.

and when 25 june came- how many people who've transcended crashed computer servers like that?

only a hustler of his caliber could do that.

i happen to have a soft place in my heart for whitney, but no, she is far from a hustler, from what i have seen. she's usually just been pushed/guided by svengalis (if you will) like clive davis. then she went and married bobby brown (and we see the mess which ensued from that). i don't ever recall her negotiating anything on the level of STEVIE or michael. both of them have marketed themselves as being independent from just a 'product'. they both fought for creative autonomy, to produce and arrange their own works. whitney houston usually just performs other people's compositions.

she is still marketed as a product. mariah carey is actually more of a hustler than her. she does compose music, and she got on that perfume kick and did movies and all this other stuff. she fought for freedom from mottola. she was probably like, 'i want 3 million for that mimi album!' HA!

Timmy84 said:

Graycap23 said:

Number uno - 1 in my book is Michael Jackson 4 making video's more important than the actual music.

No it's to everyone who thought they can do what Michael did, i.e., the label. Michael's deal was to be independent on how to market. People followed him and in turn abused it. You always got those follow the leader types that rather than lead by example, they follow and on purpose. So no I can't blame Michael for that.

EXACTLY. people forget that amongst all that singing and dancing michael did, he was all about marketing himself and his image. he was keenly aware of marketing since childhood. he was observing what his father did, what gordy did, what diana ross did, what james brown did, etc.

he never denied the 'rumor' about CBS telling MTV they'd pull all the artists if they didn't play michael's videos. if that's not marketing i don't know what is. the networks had to pay a lot of money to be able to air 'thriller' first. michael made his money back from that, and more. and even if the man never made another record in his life, thriller STILL sells, every time they re-issue it. i'm like, yo! i thought everybody and their mama had that album.

you can't re-create any of this. not even michael could. pure marketing brilliance on everyone's part, at the time. it was like you had to be there to watch it all unfold.

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

I put a lot of the blame on R&B radio though. Why the hell are you going to play a black version of some Debbie Boone type shit alongside of some hard shit like The Barkays or Midnight Star unless you are playing the little Barbie princess just because she's black.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, Jon Butcher, Living Colour, etc. are all black and didn't get R&B radio play. Even most of Tina Turner's post What's Love Got To Do With It songs weren't played on black stations. From what I remember, R&B radio in the late 80's where I lived was EPMD, Michel'le, Oran Juice Jones, Salt N Pepa, Dana Dane, Kool Moe Dee, New Edition, Guy, Al B. Sure!, Today, and other hip hop/New Jack related stuff. Whitney wasn't really cool with the younger people. Whitney's black audience were mainly the middle aged ones who didn't like hip hop. They were the ones who also bought Kenny G, Luther Vandross, Anita Baker, Rene & Angela, BeBe & CeCe Winans, and other ballad/mid tempo style R&B records. I was mostly listening to pop radio at the time. I rarely turned on the R&B stations.

yeah... whitney houston artistically is simply part of the wide range of experience of black life. she was actually played more on the general pop stations (which also played freestyle). some of her songs were on 'traditional' R&B radio: the ballads... she got more play later on, with 'waiting to exhale', 'it's not right but it's okay' (whatever that song is called), etc.

but artists like anita baker were liked by young people too... luther, shirley murdoch... a lot of those artists crossed generational boundaries. being from new york, the 'quiet storm' intermingled with the uptempo stuff.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I don't recall Clive Davis really signing hip hop acts. Arista was mostly a middle of the road label.

And Ice T was on Warner Bros. Arista was definitely a middle of the road label. They try to make Phyllis Hyman middle of the road and she rebelled.

i LOVE me some phyllis hyman! and yeah, she wasn't taking the being put into a box. and of course, the first artist to be signed to arista (gil scott-heron, with brian jackson) got dropped, cos they didn't know what to do with him.

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

Anita would've happened anyway with or without Whitney. There was always an audience for that stuff. Why you think the Commodores and Kool & the Gang went full scale pop by the early '80s? It was two years before Ms. Houston and Ms. Baker. Luther Vandross was already heading that way by 1983 (and technically he already was a pop-soul, adult contemporary act), he had some jams, yes, but he became real popular with the ballads. Whitney's strongest material was the ballads and Clive played the strings as far as that went.

Oh, Anita was never pop. I don't remember her ever having a crossover hit. She was just dull ass adult contemporary and not just dull, but extremely dull, a depressing dull. As for folks like Kool and The Gang, there's a huge difference in stuff like "Celebration", "Get Down On It', and "Tonite" than shit like "How Will I Know"

Luther was pretty good on up till around 1983 and he was still decent but his songs did have good basslines in them. Even when he got weaker, he still would have been just one person out of a few. When the little goodie two shoes came along, they all came out of the woodwork.

HEE HEE... I ACTUALLY LIKE MS. BAKER, AND I HAVE A SOFT PLACE IN MY HEART FOR WHITNEY. BUT I GOTTA SAY I'M ACTUALLY ENJOYING YOUR COMMENTS. THEY'RE MAKING ME CHUCKLE. SO THANKS!

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

And Ice T was on Warner Bros. Arista was definitely a middle of the road label. They try to make Phyllis Hyman middle of the road and she rebelled.

Very true. Phyllis' vocals were too soulful for the mainstream pop audience. "F*** a crossover" was her attitude about the situation and Clive Davis fired her for it.

PHYLLIS HYMAN: ONE OF THE GREATEST OF ALL TIMES. SHE IS ONE OF THE MOST UNDERRATED ARTISTS EVER. WHEN SHE WAS IN SCHOOL DAZE SHE GOT SOME LIGHT; BUT NO ONE OTHER THAN THE PEOPLE WHO KNEW HER APPRECIATED HER. IT WAS A SAD MOMENT WHEN SHE TRANSCENDED.

NO ONE OF HER CALIBER CAN BE RE-CREATED. PURE CLASS, SHE WAS. HER AND ANGELA BOFILL.

TonyVanDam said:

JoeTyler said:

the order of my Top10 is chronological, lol

anyway, Whitney deserves to be in my personal top3, with Poison and Deicide/Usher, I can't pick one...

BTW, why do you hate Poison so much? I mean, it's not their fault that other pop-metal bands were copying their style. But then again, Poison themselves were copying KISS & Motley Crue!

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

they did the unthinkable: they turned hard-rock into something poppy and inoffensive Unforgivable. And they spawned dozens of imitators...Winger being the worst of all time. Don't you think that "Seventeen" is the most offensive piece of crap of all time? Tony, what do you think about that song?

at least Def Leppard started as a british metal band, at least Motley Crue were dangerous, and at least Bon Jovi showed some Springsteen/Neil Young influences, specially since New Jersey...

but Poison is, well, poison for my ears, and for my brain...

JoeTyler said:

TonyVanDam said:

BTW, why do you hate Poison so much? I mean, it's not their fault that other pop-metal bands were copying their style. But then again, Poison themselves were copying KISS & Motley Crue!

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

they did the unthinkable: they turned hard-rock into something poppy and inoffensive Unforgivable. And they spawned dozens of imitators...Winger being the worst of all time. Don't you think that "Seventeen" is the most offensive piece of crap of all time? Tony, what do you think about that song?

at least Def Leppard started as a british metal band, at least Motley Crue were dangerous, and at least Bon Jovi showed some Springsteen/Neil Young influences, specially since New Jersey...

but Poison is, well, poison for my ears, and for my brain...

NO WAY, dude! warrant is worse! or trixter! 'cherry pie' is worse than 'seventeen'!

[Edited 3/4/11 5:21am]

MJJstudent said:

JoeTyler said:

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

they did the unthinkable: they turned hard-rock into something poppy and inoffensive Unforgivable. And they spawned dozens of imitators...Winger being the worst of all time. Don't you think that "Seventeen" is the most offensive piece of crap of all time? Tony, what do you think about that song?

at least Def Leppard started as a british metal band, at least Motley Crue were dangerous, and at least Bon Jovi showed some Springsteen/Neil Young influences, specially since New Jersey...

but Poison is, well, poison for my ears, and for my brain...

NO WAY, dude! warrant is worse! or trixter!

both are crappy but at least their lead singer wasn't an asshole: Mr.Winger is one of the BIGGEST assholes of the late-80's/early-90's and that's sayin' something...

JoeTyler said:

MJJstudent said:

NO WAY, dude! warrant is worse! or trixter!

both are crappy but at least their lead singer wasn't an asshole: Mr.Winger is one of the BIGGEST assholes of the late-80's/early-90's and that's sayin' something...

hmmmmmmmm... i never really have seen an interview with winger, except for one maybe 10 years ago, when he was doing industrial music or something?

MJJstudent said:

JoeTyler said:

both are crappy but at least their lead singer wasn't an asshole: Mr.Winger is one of the BIGGEST assholes of the late-80's/early-90's and that's sayin' something...

hmmmmmmmm... i never really have seen an interview with winger, except for one maybe 10 years ago, when he was doing industrial music or something?

a man who writes a song like "Seventeen" HAS to be an asshole, but he's also the guy that PROUDLY said that his band was better than bands like Metallica, Megadeth, etc.

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHAHA

JoeTyler said:

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

These four bands did not need any help destroying their legacies, they did that all on their own.

rialb said:

JoeTyler said:

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

These four bands did not need any help destroying their legacies, they did that all on their own.

rialb said:

JoeTyler said:

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

These four bands did not need any help destroying their legacies, they did that all on their own.

MJJstudent said:

vainandy said:

Oh, Anita was never pop. I don't remember her ever having a crossover hit. She was just dull ass adult contemporary and not just dull, but extremely dull, a depressing dull. As for folks like Kool and The Gang, there's a huge difference in stuff like "Celebration", "Get Down On It', and "Tonite" than shit like "How Will I Know"

Luther was pretty good on up till around 1983 and he was still decent but his songs did have good basslines in them. Even when he got weaker, he still would have been just one person out of a few. When the little goodie two shoes came along, they all came out of the woodwork.

HEE HEE... I ACTUALLY LIKE MS. BAKER, AND I HAVE A SOFT PLACE IN MY HEART FOR WHITNEY. BUT I GOTTA SAY I'M ACTUALLY ENJOYING YOUR COMMENTS. THEY'RE MAKING ME CHUCKLE. SO THANKS!

Like the whores say..."I'm here to please, honey". And when it comes to whorin', I am the madame of the brothel.

.

.

.

[Edited 3/4/11 10:38am]

vainandy said:

MJJstudent said:

HEE HEE... I ACTUALLY LIKE MS. BAKER, AND I HAVE A SOFT PLACE IN MY HEART FOR WHITNEY. BUT I GOTTA SAY I'M ACTUALLY ENJOYING YOUR COMMENTS. THEY'RE MAKING ME CHUCKLE. SO THANKS!

Like the whores say..."I'm here to please, honey". and when it comes to whorin', I am the madame or the brothel.

vainandy said:

MJJstudent said:

HEE HEE... I ACTUALLY LIKE MS. BAKER, AND I HAVE A SOFT PLACE IN MY HEART FOR WHITNEY. BUT I GOTTA SAY I'M ACTUALLY ENJOYING YOUR COMMENTS. THEY'RE MAKING ME CHUCKLE. SO THANKS!

Like the whores say..."I'm here to please, honey". And when it comes to whorin', I am the madame of the brothel.

.

.

.

[Edited 3/4/11 10:38am]

JoeTyler said:

TonyVanDam said:

BTW, why do you hate Poison so much? I mean, it's not their fault that other pop-metal bands were copying their style. But then again, Poison themselves were copying KISS & Motley Crue!

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

they did the unthinkable: they turned hard-rock into something poppy and inoffensive Unforgivable. And they spawned dozens of imitators...Winger being the worst of all time. Don't you think that "Seventeen" is the most offensive piece of crap of all time? Tony, what do you think about that song?

at least Def Leppard started as a british metal band, at least Motley Crue were dangerous, and at least Bon Jovi showed some Springsteen/Neil Young influences, specially since New Jersey...

but Poison is, well, poison for my ears, and for my brain...

1. Winger's Seventeen is equally as controversial as KISS's Christine Sixteen, Rick James' 17, AND Bell Biv Devoe's Do Me. Song about fornicating underage teenage girls is nothing new.

And yes, Winger f***ing suck! I'll agree with you there.

2. Poison's Talk Dirty To Me & Every Rose Has Its Thorn are classics. Even if we agree that C.C. Deville is one of the most overrated guitar players ever, you cannot overlook Bret Michaels' excellent lyrics!

TonyVanDam said:

JoeTyler said:

Poison destroyed the legacy of Zeppelin, MC5, early-70's Stones, Aerosmith, Kiss, Van Halen, etc.

they did the unthinkable: they turned hard-rock into something poppy and inoffensive Unforgivable. And they spawned dozens of imitators...Winger being the worst of all time. Don't you think that "Seventeen" is the most offensive piece of crap of all time? Tony, what do you think about that song?

at least Def Leppard started as a british metal band, at least Motley Crue were dangerous, and at least Bon Jovi showed some Springsteen/Neil Young influences, specially since New Jersey...

but Poison is, well, poison for my ears, and for my brain...

1. Winger's Seventeen is equally as controversial as KISS's Christine Sixteen, Rick James' 17, AND Bell Biv Devoe's Do Me. Song about fornicating underage teenage girls is nothing new.

Mick Jagger sang about banging a fifteen year old in "Stray Cat Blues." Rock stars are pervs.

rialb said:

TonyVanDam said:

1. Winger's Seventeen is equally as controversial as KISS's Christine Sixteen, Rick James' 17, AND Bell Biv Devoe's Do Me. Song about fornicating underage teenage girls is nothing new.

Mick Jagger sang about banging a fifteen year old in "Stray Cat Blues." Rock stars are pervs.

true

No acts/bands in my list. In no special order:

1. Columbia

2. Arista

3. Jive

5. Universal

6. Atlantic

7. RCA

8. Virgin

9. Warner Bros

10. Def Jam

They were the ones who raped popular music and suckered everybody else into buying their gift wrapped bullshit.

Remember when we chastised Milli Vanilli for being frauds instead of the folks who signed them? That was a long time ago, because it sure as hell doesn't seem like anybody's batting an eyelash over the fraudulence going on nowadays.

Harlepolis said:

No acts/bands in my list. In no special order:

1. Columbia

2. Arista

3. Jive

5. Universal

6. Atlantic

7. RCA

8. Virgin

9. Warner Bros

10. Def Jam

They were the ones who raped popular music and suckered everybody else into buying their gift wrapped bullshit.

Remember when we chastised Milli Vanilli for being frauds instead of the folks who signed them? That was a long time ago, because it sure as hell doesn't seem like anybody's batting an eyelash over the fraudulence going on nowadays.

/endofthread.

Harlepolis said:

No acts/bands in my list. In no special order:

1. Columbia

2. Arista

3. Jive

5. Universal

6. Atlantic

7. RCA

8. Virgin

9. Warner Bros

10. Def Jam

They were the ones who raped popular music and suckered everybody else into buying their gift wrapped bullshit.

Remember when we chastised Milli Vanilli for being frauds instead of the folks who signed them? That was a long time ago, because it sure as hell doesn't seem like anybody's batting an eyelash over the fraudulence going on nowadays.

I would have ranked Universial/MCA records at #1. Think about it, THIS beast power of a major label has brought out Motown, Mercury, A&M, Interscope, Young Money/Ca$h Money, Def Jam, Island, Aftermath, and damn nearly every other label that started out as "independent".