Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

Ice-T had the power...

That's because he didn't take no shit. HUSTLERS don't take no shit. Whitney was NOT a hustler. DIFFERENCE!

Lots of the old school artists were hustlers, some of them got what they want and some had to half-play the system before getting back at the label president. You forget Stevie Wonder was an ultimate hustler. He can play nice and then before you know it, he'll tell you to PAY up, he'll challenge you to come up with whatever it is you demand and then he'll tell you what he WANTS and before you know it, BAM!

Whitney just doesn't have that power. Not even today. She just doesn't.

what a bimbo

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

That's because he didn't take no shit. HUSTLERS don't take no shit. Whitney was NOT a hustler. DIFFERENCE!

Lots of the old school artists were hustlers, some of them got what they want and some had to half-play the system before getting back at the label president. You forget Stevie Wonder was an ultimate hustler. He can play nice and then before you know it, he'll tell you to PAY up, he'll challenge you to come up with whatever it is you demand and then he'll tell you what he WANTS and before you know it, BAM!

Whitney just doesn't have that power. Not even today. She just doesn't.

what a bimbo

Who, Whitney?

vainandy said:

I put a lot of the blame on R&B radio though. Why the hell are you going to play a black version of some Debbie Boone type shit alongside of some hard shit like The Barkays or Midnight Star unless you are playing the little Barbie princess just because she's black.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, Jon Butcher, Living Colour, etc. are all black and didn't get R&B radio play. Even most of Tina Turner's post What's Love Got To Do With It songs weren't played on black stations. From what I remember, R&B radio in the late 80's where I lived was EPMD, Michel'le, Oran Juice Jones, Salt N Pepa, Dana Dane, Kool Moe Dee, New Edition, Guy, Al B. Sure!, Today, and other hip hop/New Jack related stuff. Whitney wasn't really cool with the younger people. Whitney's black audience were mainly the middle aged ones who didn't like hip hop. They were the ones who also bought Kenny G, Luther Vandross, Anita Baker, Rene & Angela, BeBe & CeCe Winans, and other ballad/mid tempo style R&B records. I was mostly listening to pop radio at the time. I rarely turned on the R&B stations.

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Why are y'all afraid to admit that Whitney didn't have the power to say no? Money make you weak. Look up Milli Vanilli.

Ice-T had the power...

I don't recall Clive Davis really signing hip hop acts. Arista was mostly a middle of the road label.

MickyDolenz said:

JoeTyler said:

Ice-T had the power...

I don't recall Clive Davis really signing hip hop acts. Arista was mostly a middle of the road label.

And Ice T was on Warner Bros. Arista was definitely a middle of the road label. They try to make Phyllis Hyman middle of the road and she rebelled.

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

I put a lot of the blame on R&B radio though. Why the hell are you going to play a black version of some Debbie Boone type shit alongside of some hard shit like The Barkays or Midnight Star unless you are playing the little Barbie princess just because she's black.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, Jon Butcher, Living Colour, etc. are all black and didn't get R&B radio play. Even most of Tina Turner's post What's Love Got To Do With It songs weren't played on black stations. From what I remember, R&B radio in the late 80's where I lived was EPMD, Michel'le, Oran Juice Jones, Salt N Pepa, Dana Dane, Kool Moe Dee, New Edition, Guy, Al B. Sure!, Today, and other hip hop/New Jack related stuff. Whitney wasn't really cool with the younger people. Whitney's black audience were mainly the middle aged ones who didn't like hip hop. They were the ones who also bought Kenny G, Luther Vandross, Anita Baker, Rene & Angela, BeBe & CeCe Winans, and other ballad/mid tempo style R&B records. I was mostly listening to pop radio at the time. I rarely turned on the R&B stations.

Whitney was pop-R&B and what was claimed to this day to be "urban adult contemporary". Andy don't like Kenny G., post-1986 Luther, and Anita just to be frank.

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

I put a lot of the blame on R&B radio though. Why the hell are you going to play a black version of some Debbie Boone type shit alongside of some hard shit like The Barkays or Midnight Star unless you are playing the little Barbie princess just because she's black.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, Jon Butcher, Living Colour, etc. are all black and didn't get R&B radio play. Even most of Tina Turner's post What's Love Got To Do With It songs weren't played on black stations. From what I remember, R&B radio in the late 80's where I lived was EPMD, Michel'le, Oran Juice Jones, Salt N Pepa, Dana Dane, Kool Moe Dee, New Edition, Guy, Al B. Sure!, Today, and other hip hop/New Jack related stuff. Whitney wasn't really cool with the younger people. Whitney's black audience were mainly the middle aged ones who didn't like hip hop. They were the ones who also bought Kenny G, Luther Vandross, Anita Baker, Rene & Angela, BeBe & CeCe Winans, and other ballad/mid tempo style R&B records. I was mostly listening to pop radio at the time. I rarely turned on the R&B stations.

Shitney was very popular with the young people, especially the females and I remember when she came to my town in 1985, all the females went and drug their pussy whipped boyfriends with them.

All that other stuff you are talking about came after Shitney in the late 1980s, that's why she was a problem. Before her in the early 1980s, funk dominated the airwaves and the slow jams were mostly the sexy ones made by the funk groups such as "Feel Me" by Cameo, "Something In The Past" by One Way, "Say Yes" by Lakeside, etc. A little adult contemporary existed but not much. After Shitney, it was a whole different scene and as far as all those rap groups dominating the late 1980s, there was still some funk around such as Jesse Johnson, Ready For The World, Madame X, Midnight Star, Cameo, etc. so they still had a big part of the scene but a lot of them were so busy either copying Prince's sound or trying to crossover to pop through other trends, that they weren't their own selves and they were starting to become scarce and the tables turned and the damn adult contemporary started getting more airplay than the funk. As for sexy slow jams in the late 1980s, well, that practically didn't exist anymore except for a few by leftover funk groups or artists that were still lingering around from the early 1980s. With the rebellion void of funk leaving, it was very easy for rap to come in and fill that void and it was a very weak substitute for it. The late 1980s were a completely different scene than the early 1980s before Shitney.

Actually to be frank, when the labels noticed how much sales Whitney (and Lionel and Michael and Prince) got, the labels (and the artists themselves) decided to "follow" the leader. Like I said, if you decide to aim for the same music, then that don't make you any better. It's a label psychology. You wanna sell, you have to not want to be yourself. Sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. The Whitney model didn't last forever really.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, Jon Butcher, Living Colour, etc. are all black and didn't get R&B radio play. Even most of Tina Turner's post What's Love Got To Do With It songs weren't played on black stations. From what I remember, R&B radio in the late 80's where I lived was EPMD, Michel'le, Oran Juice Jones, Salt N Pepa, Dana Dane, Kool Moe Dee, New Edition, Guy, Al B. Sure!, Today, and other hip hop/New Jack related stuff. Whitney wasn't really cool with the younger people. Whitney's black audience were mainly the middle aged ones who didn't like hip hop. They were the ones who also bought Kenny G, Luther Vandross, Anita Baker, Rene & Angela, BeBe & CeCe Winans, and other ballad/mid tempo style R&B records. I was mostly listening to pop radio at the time. I rarely turned on the R&B stations.

Whitney was pop-R&B and what was claimed to this day to be "urban adult contemporary". Andy don't like Kenny G., post-1986 Luther, and Anita just to be frank.

Oh, her music is ten times duller than Shitney's. But if Shitney hadn't opened those doors and made dull shit cool with a younger crowd, folks like Anita would have flopped. I was surprised when I found out that Anita's first album was around 1983 or so because I had never heard it on the radio. It got absolutely NO airplay in my area whatsoever? Why? Because Shitney had not hit the scene yet and funk was still dominating.

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

Whitney was pop-R&B and what was claimed to this day to be "urban adult contemporary". Andy don't like Kenny G., post-1986 Luther, and Anita just to be frank.

Oh, her music is ten times duller than Shitney's. But if Shitney hadn't opened those doors and made dull shit cool with a younger crowd, folks like Anita would have flopped. I was surprised when I found out that Anita's first album was around 1983 or so because I had never heard it on the radio. It got absolutely NO airplay in my area whatsoever? Why? Because Shitney had not hit the scene yet and funk was still dominating.

Anita would've happened anyway with or without Whitney. There was always an audience for that stuff. Why you think the Commodores and Kool & the Gang went full scale pop by the early '80s? It was two years before Ms. Houston and Ms. Baker. Luther Vandross was already heading that way by 1983 (and technically he already was a pop-soul, adult contemporary act), he had some jams, yes, but he became real popular with the ballads. Whitney's strongest material was the ballads and Clive played the strings as far as that went.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, Jon Butcher, Living Colour, etc. are all black and didn't get R&B radio play. Even most of Tina Turner's post What's Love Got To Do With It songs weren't played on black stations. From what I remember, R&B radio in the late 80's where I lived was EPMD, Michel'le, Oran Juice Jones, Salt N Pepa, Dana Dane, Kool Moe Dee, New Edition, Guy, Al B. Sure!, Today, and other hip hop/New Jack related stuff. Whitney wasn't really cool with the younger people. Whitney's black audience were mainly the middle aged ones who didn't like hip hop. They were the ones who also bought Kenny G, Luther Vandross, Anita Baker, Rene & Angela, BeBe & CeCe Winans, and other ballad/mid tempo style R&B records. I was mostly listening to pop radio at the time. I rarely turned on the R&B stations.

Whitney was pop-R&B and what was claimed to this day to be "urban adult contemporary". Andy don't like Kenny G., post-1986 Luther, and Anita just to be frank.

Whitney was considered straight pop. She didn't "cross over" like a Ready For The World or Midnight Star, she was like Lionel Richie and played on Top 40 pop stations from the get go. George Michael & Hall And Oates was considered more R&B than Whitney. The "adult R&B/pop" was taken over by New Jack Swing and rap. That's why the Anita Baker & Kashif types started to lose popularity at the end of the 80s.

Timmy84 said:

vainandy said:

Oh, her music is ten times duller than Shitney's. But if Shitney hadn't opened those doors and made dull shit cool with a younger crowd, folks like Anita would have flopped. I was surprised when I found out that Anita's first album was around 1983 or so because I had never heard it on the radio. It got absolutely NO airplay in my area whatsoever? Why? Because Shitney had not hit the scene yet and funk was still dominating.

Anita would've happened anyway with or without Whitney. There was always an audience for that stuff. Why you think the Commodores and Kool & the Gang went full scale pop by the early '80s? It was two years before Ms. Houston and Ms. Baker. Luther Vandross was already heading that way by 1983 (and technically he already was a pop-soul, adult contemporary act), he had some jams, yes, but he became real popular with the ballads. Whitney's strongest material was the ballads and Clive played the strings as far as that went.

Oh, Anita was never pop. I don't remember her ever having a crossover hit. She was just dull ass adult contemporary and not just dull, but extremely dull, a depressing dull. As for folks like Kool and The Gang, there's a huge difference in stuff like "Celebration", "Get Down On It', and "Tonite" than shit like "How Will I Know"

Luther was pretty good on up till around 1983 and he was still decent but his songs did have good basslines in them. Even when he got weaker, he still would have been just one person out of a few. When the little goodie two shoes came along, they all came out of the woodwork.

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

Anita would've happened anyway with or without Whitney. There was always an audience for that stuff. Why you think the Commodores and Kool & the Gang went full scale pop by the early '80s? It was two years before Ms. Houston and Ms. Baker. Luther Vandross was already heading that way by 1983 (and technically he already was a pop-soul, adult contemporary act), he had some jams, yes, but he became real popular with the ballads. Whitney's strongest material was the ballads and Clive played the strings as far as that went.

Oh, Anita was never pop. I don't remember her ever having a crossover hit. She was just dull ass adult contemporary and not just dull, but extremely dull, a depressing dull. As for folks like Kool and The Gang, there's a huge difference in stuff like "Celebration", "Get Down On It', and "Tonite" than shit like "How Will I Know"

Luther was pretty good on up till around 1983 and he was still decent but his songs did have good basslines in them. Even when he got weaker, he still would have been just one person out of a few. When the little goodie two shoes came along, they all came out of the woodwork.

Correction: Yeah Anita was urban adult contemporary. As for KATG, like "Joanna"?

Oh, man, it's really sad what Kool and the Gang turned in to. They were one of the funkiest bands of the '70s but today all they are remembered for are the pop hits of the '80s.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Whitney was pop-R&B and what was claimed to this day to be "urban adult contemporary". Andy don't like Kenny G., post-1986 Luther, and Anita just to be frank.

Whitney was considered straight pop. She didn't "cross over" like a Ready For The World or Midnight Star, she was like Lionel Richie and played on Top 40 pop stations from the get go.

She sure was. She was pop all the way. As for being played on R&B radio, there was no damn "rhythm" whatsoever in her music but listening to it sure as hell could give you the "blues". Maybe that's why R&B played her. But since she was so damn hellbent on being a pop artist from the get go, then that's where she should have been played and R&B radio should have told her to go fuck herself.

George Michael & Hall And Oates was considered more R&B than Whitney.

Honey, Willie Nelson is more R&B than her ass.

The "adult R&B/pop" was taken over by New Jack Swing and rap. That's why the Anita Baker & Kashif types started to lose popularity at the end of the 80s.

And when it took over, they created adult contemporary R&B stations with a "soft soul" format so that type of music could live on. Those type of stations didn't exist before. That meant you had two types of R&B music only....adult contemporary and shit hop. Something for the extremely old and something for the extremely young. Nothing for the folks that grew up with music that was fun and funky. Yeah, a lot of folks my age gave in and started liking that dull shit, especially after they got married and had kids but honey, I'm gay and we party until the day we die...at least we used to. I remember when I first came out during the house era, there were tons of older gay men in their 40s in the clubs because they had grown up on disco in their heyday and house was just a reincarnation of disco so they were loving it. Well, I'm in my 40s now and everybody in the clubs is in their 20s and rarely do you see anyone over 30.

rialb said:

Oh, man, it's really sad what Kool and the Gang turned in to. They were one of the funkiest bands of the '70s but today all they are remembered for are the pop hits of the '80s.

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

[Edited 3/3/11 16:08pm]

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

Oh, man, it's really sad what Kool and the Gang turned in to. They were one of the funkiest bands of the '70s but today all they are remembered for are the pop hits of the '80s.

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

Sounds like prog Genesis and Yes fans not liking Invisible Touch and Owner Of A Lonely Heart. Or Jefferson Airplane fans not liking Sara and We Built This City.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

Sounds like prog Genesis and Yes fans not liking Invisible Touch and Owner Of A Lonely Heart. Or Jefferson Airplane fans not liking Sara and We Built This City.

Jefferson Airplane's transformation was way more dramatic than that of Genesis'. Genesis made it CLEAR why they changed their sound (they wanted the pussy ).

[Edited 3/3/11 16:20pm]

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

Sounds like prog Genesis and Yes fans not liking Invisible Touch and Owner Of A Lonely Heart. Or Jefferson Airplane fans not liking Sara and We Built This City.

Well, I don't like it but all of those acts made truckloads of cash by "going pop."

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Sounds like prog Genesis and Yes fans not liking Invisible Touch and Owner Of A Lonely Heart. Or Jefferson Airplane fans not liking Sara and We Built This City.

Jefferson Airplane's transformation was way more dramatic than that of Genesis'. Genesis made it CLEAR why they changed their sound (they wanted the pussy ).

[Edited 3/3/11 16:20pm]

I'm trying to picture Phil Collins, Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks surrounded by a bunch of silicone bimbos and I can't quite do it.

rialb said:

Timmy84 said:

Jefferson Airplane's transformation was way more dramatic than that of Genesis'. Genesis made it CLEAR why they changed their sound (they wanted the pussy ).

[Edited 3/3/11 16:20pm]

I'm trying to picture Phil Collins, Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks surrounded by a bunch of silicone bimbos and I can't quite do it.

I don't know which member said it, it could've been Tony, but they decided with Phil's voice that the music they were doing would attract the ladies and it did. Obviously their change didn't go well with some folks. During one night, they even got booed and Phil got so upset he flipped the bird, this was like in 1981 or something.

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

Oh, man, it's really sad what Kool and the Gang turned in to. They were one of the funkiest bands of the '70s but today all they are remembered for are the pop hits of the '80s.

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

[Edited 3/3/11 16:08pm]

I first got into them in 1979 with "Ladies Night" and loved it. I also loved "Celebration" the next year and "Take My Heart", "Get Down On It", and "Steppin' Out" the year after that. When I considered them slipping is when I heard shit like "Joanna" and "Misled" the year after that. "Fresh" was decent but weak compared to earlier work and I loved "Tonite" and a few years later, "Victory".

I had previously heard "Jungle Boogie" and "Hollywood Swinging" but was too young to know who the group was. I really first got into music myself and buying music beginning in 1978 and 1979 so I loved a lot of stuff that Kool and The Gang did from that time on up through the early 1980s. I first heard one of their earlier songs "Rated X" in one of Finess's mixes a few years ago and thought it was one of the funkiest jams I had ever heard. I like a lot of their pre JT stuff and there's also a lot of it I don't care for also just like the latter JT stuff.

Ooops, I forgot about "Open Sesame". I first heard that on the second album I ever bought, the "Saturday Night Fever" soundtrack and loved it also.

Timmy84 said:

vainandy said:

Oh, Anita was never pop. I don't remember her ever having a crossover hit. She was just dull ass adult contemporary and not just dull, but extremely dull, a depressing dull. As for folks like Kool and The Gang, there's a huge difference in stuff like "Celebration", "Get Down On It', and "Tonite" than shit like "How Will I Know"

Luther was pretty good on up till around 1983 and he was still decent but his songs did have good basslines in them. Even when he got weaker, he still would have been just one person out of a few. When the little goodie two shoes came along, they all came out of the woodwork.

Correction: Yeah Anita was urban adult contemporary. As for KATG, like "Joanna"?

"Joanna", as weak as it may be, is still much better than shit like "Where Do Broken Hearts Go".

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I don't recall Clive Davis really signing hip hop acts. Arista was mostly a middle of the road label.

And Ice T was on Warner Bros. Arista was definitely a middle of the road label. They try to make Phyllis Hyman middle of the road and she rebelled.

Well, I meant that he always talked shit about the radio/labels, and he defended Cop Killa as long as he could...

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

Oh, man, it's really sad what Kool and the Gang turned in to. They were one of the funkiest bands of the '70s but today all they are remembered for are the pop hits of the '80s.

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

[Edited 3/3/11 16:08pm]

well, Celebration and Get Down On It were still R&B songs , the problems started after Get Down On It...

it wasn't until Pulp Fiction that the younger generations rediscovered their 70s stuff...

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah it's strange though. I always believed when they added JT Taylor, their intention was slowly going from straight funk/R&B to pop. It was slow in coming but it was clear by 1981 the stage was set for them to go pop.

[Edited 3/3/11 16:08pm]

well, Celebration and Get Down On It were still R&B songs , the problems started after Get Down On It...

it wasn't until Pulp Fiction that the younger generations rediscovered their 70s stuff...

Robert "Kool" Bell said they were trying to write a country song with Celebration because Urban Cowboy was popular at the time. Something that everyone could get into.

vainandy said:

TonyVanDam said:

I notice in your opening post that you have Whitney Houston at #2 for artist/band that ruined pop music (your opinion of course).

Of course that's his opinion and his opinion is WRONG. She should have been listed at #1.

vainandy said:

JoeTyler said:

ahhh, but that's exactly why I meant, both Clive and Whitney are guilty. Whitney still had the chance to say "Clive, honey, look: this sound sucks, is too thin, I wanna be like Teena Marie or Aretha, I'm looking for that sound", Clive "that sound is old and too black, do you want to be a global superstar or just he next r&B darling?", Whitney: "Ok, I'll sell my soul ($)"...

Whitney decided to follow the easy/wrong path. IT'S HER FAULT.

That's exactly what that little goodie two shoes cheerleader princess did. She has a mouth and she knows how to say "no", especially considering that she has famous people in her family that could have got her another recording contract. I honestly don't think she could have pulled off any jams though because from what I've seen, she just ain't got it in her.

I put a lot of the blame on R&B radio though. Why the hell are you going to play a black version of some Debbie Boone type shit alongside of some hard shit like The Barkays or Midnight Star unless you are playing the little Barbie princess just because she's black. Her songs obviously didn't fit in with the format and I guarantee you that Debbie Boone didn't get played on rock radio alongside of AC/DC. Playing Shitney on R&B radio in 1985 was just rediculous because she fit in about as much as the girl in the Bruce Springsteen "Dancing In The Dark" video coming down the "Soul Train" line.

[Edited 3/3/11 6:57am]

Did you just called Whitney the black version of Courtney Cox?!? You were aware that the little girl Bruce was dancing with was Courtney Cox, right?

JoeTyler said:

vainandy said:

Of course that's his opinion and his opinion is WRONG. She should have been listed at #1.

the order of my Top10 is chronological, lol

anyway, Whitney deserves to be in my personal top3, with Poison and Deicide/Usher, I can't pick one...

BTW, why do you hate Poison so much? I mean, it's not their fault that other pop-metal bands were copying their style. But then again, Poison themselves were copying KISS & Motley Crue!

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I don't recall Clive Davis really signing hip hop acts. Arista was mostly a middle of the road label.

And Ice T was on Warner Bros. Arista was definitely a middle of the road label. They try to make Phyllis Hyman middle of the road and she rebelled.

Very true. Phyllis' vocals were too soulful for the mainstream pop audience. "F*** a crossover" was her attitude about the situation and Clive Davis fired her for it.