SherryJackson said:

Peace my man..

thanks for the hand shot!!!

bboy87 said:

Derek1984 said:

Yes, that's it! Thank you. I wonder if MJ was between sessions working on Thriller at this time since it was 1982 and in L.A. I'd also love to hear some audio on that live duet with Patti. Not a song MJ ever sang live, that was rare.

[Edited 2/17/11 12:20pm]

Someone on Youtube told me that had an cassette of it that they taped from the radio but they haven't uploaded it....and they told me that 3 years ago and I'm still waiting

this audio would be awesome to hear. i also saw from someone that the jacksons actually performed 'find me a girl' live at some point too... i am also wondering if at some point he did songs like 'lady in my life' or 'baby be mine', or at least rehearsed for them. that would be grand...

MJJstudent said:

SherryJackson said:

Peace my man..

thanks for the hand shot!!!

You're welcome Jamilah!

ViintageJunkiie said:

bboy87 said:

For those that don't know, there's someone who's selling a copy of "Hot Fever" which is the original version of The Way You Make Me Feel from 1985

So let's see, what is available from the 1985-1987 Bad sessions

Bad

The Way You Make Me Feel

Speed Demon

Liberian Girl

Just Good Friends

Another Part Of Me

Man In The Mirror

I Just Can't Stop Loving You

Dirty Diana

Smooth Criminal

Leave Me Alone

Streetwalker

Fly Away

Groove Of Midnight (snippet)

Cheater

Come Together

We Are Here To Change The World

songs that we know about but aren't circulating

Buffalo Bill

What You Do To Me

Strawberry Fields Forever

Tomboy

Hot Fever

The Price Of Fame

Crack Kills

Al Capone

Michael McKeller

Don't Be Messin' Around (originally for the Thriller album)

Chicago 1945

Get Around

Someone Put Your Hand Out (earlier version)

Turning Me Off

I wanna hear ALL those! From what I can remember, Crack Kills was never even recorded and Buffalo Bill goes back to 83 and I know the hook is "Who shot Buffalo Bill? They said he shot a lot, did he ever get killed?" I wanna hear his remake to Strawberry Fields

The BAD sessions are lookin more and more interesting as I look into them. Me thinks there may be two completely different sessions for BAD. ME thinks BAD was to originally be released sometime in 84 after VICTORY or in 85. We do know he was recording for the new album as early as 1983. Also, supposedly Epic stopped the release or Jermaine's Arista single "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin" as they said if would interfere with MJ's upcoming release, BAD. I do think it was gonna be released sometime in 85, but with the success of THRILLER, why put out BAD so soon? THRILLER was still selling like hotcakes, so no reason to put out another album on the market at the same time.

So, I think he started to work on the record again after the THRILLER craze died down a bit. And then. from some other sources, BAD was to be a 3-Set LP with 30 songs.

[Edited 2/17/11 23:31pm]

What up, Michael Jackson loving Orgers! I'm in that mood! Let's party with and for Michael!

Let me show you. Let me show you...the way to go!

Keep On Dancing!

Come y'all! Enjoy yourself with me!

We're the party people...night and day! Livin' crazy...that's the only way!

LittleBLUECorvette said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I wanna hear ALL those! From what I can remember, Crack Kills was never even recorded and Buffalo Bill goes back to 83 and I know the hook is "Who shot Buffalo Bill? They said he shot a lot, did he ever get killed?" I wanna hear his remake to Strawberry Fields

The BAD sessions are lookin more and more interesting as I look into them. Me thinks there may be two completely different sessions for BAD. ME thinks BAD was to originally be released sometime in 84 after VICTORY or in 85. We do know he was recording for the new album as early as 1983. Also, supposedly Epic stopped the release or Jermaine's Arista single "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin" as they said if would interfere with MJ's upcoming release, BAD. I do think it was gonna be released sometime in 85, but with the success of THRILLER, why put out BAD so soon? THRILLER was still selling like hotcakes, so no reason to put out another album on the market at the same time.

So, I think he started to work on the record again after the THRILLER craze died down a bit. And then. from some other sources, THRILLER was to be a 3-Set LP with 30 songs.

[Edited 2/17/11 18:45pm]

I heard that BAD initially was intended as a 3-set LP - hadn't heard Thriller was.

MJJstudent said:

i don't think your interpretation of the 'way you make me feel' video is wrong (as it is your interpretation)... i must say it still disturbed me. why is michael stalking this woman? leave her alone! let her be, let her go to where she is going in peace. his relentlessness is not only unattractive, but frightening. again, i have had this same thing happen to me (by both strangers AND people i thought were friends), and i had to put a stop to it. i wasn't giving off any signals that i was in the slightest bit attracted to them. there is a point where it's important to read body language. how tatiana gave in was very disappointing, and i think set back women in a lot of ways. it was as if she was weak and could not defend herself. what is this 'weak/helpless woman' crap? i mean she was already so skinny that you could break her in half. and then she couldn't put her stilettos up somebody's ass for stalking her? no way... no way!

lol I just found this today:

http://www.washingtoncity...n-edition/

Off-screen, Jackson's sex life was notoriously tortured—rumors in the press pegged Jackson alternately as a lifelong virgin, a pedophile, and a freak. In his music videos, we saw Jackson play with sexual violence and physical domination in order to portray the image of complete sexual control.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "The Way You Make Me Feel"

Relevant Lyrics:

The way you make me feel
You really turn me on
You knock me off of my feet
My lonely days are gone

Why It's So Rapey: Here, Michael Jackson presents an interesting contribution to the Date Rape Canon—one that defies lyrical explanation. The words to "The Way You Make Me Feel" only convey that the object of Jackson's affection "really turns [him] on." The song's undertones of sexual violence all come courtesy Jackson's notoriously specific body language. The music video makes clear the way the woman makes Jackson feel—like stalking, verbally harassing, and physically intimidating her into loving him.

Meanwhile, Jackson's female victim repeatedly fails to verbally dissuade Jackson from terrorizing her. The woman in the video, who attempts to evade Jackson's advances through the darkened night streets, remains silent throughout. The disconnect between Jackson's physical and verbal messages, and the woman's inability to articulate opposition, mirror the unspoken nature of much sexual violence, which often goes unidentified and unreported. But it's not the only MJ jam to play on the stalking theme.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "Billie Jean"

Relevant Lyrics:

For forty days and for forty nights
The law was on her side
But who can stand when she's in demand
Her schemes and plans
'Cause we danced on the floor in the round
So take my strong advice, just remember to always think twice

Why It's So Rapey: In the "Billie Jean" video, a rogue Michael Jackson sneaks into a woman's bed at night as he's chased by a band of police. The woman, obscured beneath the covers, shows no sign of being awake, or in fact registering Jackson's presence at all! The sheets nevertheless erupt into a metaphorical flash of light, signifying doin' it. Then, Jackson vanishes into thin air, underlining the song's assertion that Billie Jean is totally lying about all of this. Tragically for MJ, charges of sexual assault weren't relegated to the fictional sphere: Jackson was acquitted of sex abuse allegations in 2005.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "Thriller"

Relevant Lyrics:

They're out to get you, there's demons closing in on every side
They will possess you unless you change that number on your dial
Now is the time for you and I to cuddle close together, yeah
All through the night I'll save you from the terror on the screen
I'll make you see

That this is thriller, thriller night
'Cause I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try
Thriller, thriller night
So let me hold you tight and share a
Killer, diller, chiller, thriller here tonight

Why It's So Rapey: In "Thriller," a young man attempts to scare his date by taunting herwith horror film phantoms—and insisting that she needs to come home with him to avoid them.

There's a domestic violence lesson to be learned here: The guy who insists that you need his protection in return for sexual favors (implied) is actually much more dangerous than any of the shit he's claiming to protect you from. (" I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try.") In the case of "Thriller," the bogeyman keeping the girl close to Jackson takes the form of ghouls, blood-seeking creatures, and "the thing with forty eyes." In real life, the phantom dangers abusive men use to make women stay include "never being able to find a guy like me again," "being unhappy forever," and/or "doing it for the kids."

Unholyalliance said:

MJJstudent said:

i don't think your interpretation of the 'way you make me feel' video is wrong (as it is your interpretation)... i must say it still disturbed me. why is michael stalking this woman? leave her alone! let her be, let her go to where she is going in peace. his relentlessness is not only unattractive, but frightening. again, i have had this same thing happen to me (by both strangers AND people i thought were friends), and i had to put a stop to it. i wasn't giving off any signals that i was in the slightest bit attracted to them. there is a point where it's important to read body language. how tatiana gave in was very disappointing, and i think set back women in a lot of ways. it was as if she was weak and could not defend herself. what is this 'weak/helpless woman' crap? i mean she was already so skinny that you could break her in half. and then she couldn't put her stilettos up somebody's ass for stalking her? no way... no way!

lol I just found this today:

http://www.washingtoncity...n-edition/

Off-screen, Jackson's sex life was notoriously tortured—rumors in the press pegged Jackson alternately as a lifelong virgin, a pedophile, and a freak. In his music videos, we saw Jackson play with sexual violence and physical domination in order to portray the image of complete sexual control.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "The Way You Make Me Feel"

Relevant Lyrics:

Why It's So Rapey: In the "Billie Jean" video, a rogue Michael Jackson sneaks into a woman's bed at night as he's chased by a band of police. The woman, obscured beneath the covers, shows no sign of being awake, or in fact registering Jackson's presence at all! The sheets nevertheless erupt into a metaphorical flash of light, signifying doin' it. Then, Jackson vanishes into thin air, underlining the song's assertion that Billie Jean is totally lying about all of this. Tragically for MJ, charges of sexual assault weren't relegated to the fictional sphere: Jackson was acquitted of sex abuse allegations in 2005.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "Thriller"

Relevant Lyrics:

They're out to get you, there's demons closing in on every side
They will possess you unless you change that number on your dial
Now is the time for you and I to cuddle close together, yeah
All through the night I'll save you from the terror on the screen
I'll make you see

That this is thriller, thriller night
'Cause I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try
Thriller, thriller night
So let me hold you tight and share a
Killer, diller, chiller, thriller here tonight

Why It's So Rapey: In "Thriller," a young man attempts to scare his date by taunting herwith horror film phantoms—and insisting that she needs to come home with him to avoid them.

There's a domestic violence lesson to be learned here: The guy who insists that you need his protection in return for sexual favors (implied) is actually much more dangerous than any of the shit he's claiming to protect you from. (" I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try.") In the case of "Thriller," the bogeyman keeping the girl close to Jackson takes the form of ghouls, blood-seeking creatures, and "the thing with forty eyes." In real life, the phantom dangers abusive men use to make women stay include "never being able to find a guy like me again," "being unhappy forever," and/or "doing it for the kids."

Look I'm all up for interpretation...but that...they just ruined some of my favourites right there.

I think first off, song choice is weak. Two, it's the wrong angle they chose for those. And three....the time they published this was in extreme bad taste if you ask me.

Swa said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The BAD sessions are lookin more and more interesting as I look into them. Me thinks there may be two completely different sessions for BAD. ME thinks BAD was to originally be released sometime in 84 after VICTORY or in 85. We do know he was recording for the new album as early as 1983. Also, supposedly Epic stopped the release or Jermaine's Arista single "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin" as they said if would interfere with MJ's upcoming release, BAD. I do think it was gonna be released sometime in 85, but with the success of THRILLER, why put out BAD so soon? THRILLER was still selling like hotcakes, so no reason to put out another album on the market at the same time.

So, I think he started to work on the record again after the THRILLER craze died down a bit. And then. from some other sources, THRILLER was to be a 3-Set LP with 30 songs.

[Edited 2/17/11 18:45pm]

I heard that BAD initially was intended as a 3-set LP - hadn't heard Thriller was.

Thanks, I meant BAD not THRILLER, I changed it. But think about, he recorded tracks between 83 and 85, they were planned for some album. What was Love Never Felt So God planned for? Dirty Diana and Pyramid Girl are from 83. This is It from 83.

Those interpretations are just plain stupid.

Oh and thanks for the Destiny tour clips, Hatrina!

Timmy84 said:

Those interpretations are just plain stupid.

Oh and thanks for the Destiny tour clips, Hatrina!

I was just beginning to wonder if this damn thing...was on!

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Timmy84 said:

Those interpretations are just plain stupid.

Oh and thanks for the Destiny tour clips, Hatrina!

I was just beginning to wonder if this damn thing...was on!

I feel ya.

^^ I think when all is said and done, the best outtakes will have been from BAD. 2 songs that really interest me are Buffalo Bill and Tomboy. IIRC, in a deposition, MJ was asked about Tomboy and he started singing the song to himself and was grooving to it.

I think Buffalo Bill was worked on a lot. It started in '83 and Frank Dileo was quoted in Rolling Stone saying it was another hit dance song. I then asked an engineer that worked on BAD over in the Gearslutz forum about this song and he replied back that they DID work on it and it had a heavy John Barnes influence. I believe it was worked on for Victory and BAD.

And also, don't forget about the song called Apocalypse Now. I also have high hopes about a song titled "What You Do To Me". And if Groove of Midnight was ever recorded, that sounds like it could be amazing.

2012/13 should be all about BAD. It's the 25th anniversary. They should release a double disc and also finally the BAD Tour on dvd. Oh, and they should release the original cover that Michael wanted for the album... I believe that's already been posted on here. The picture with drawings on his face.

[Edited 2/18/11 6:33am]

[Edited 2/18/11 6:34am]

LittleBLUECorvette said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I wanna hear ALL those! From what I can remember, Crack Kills was never even recorded and Buffalo Bill goes back to 83 and I know the hook is "Who shot Buffalo Bill? They said he shot a lot, did he ever get killed?" I wanna hear his remake to Strawberry Fields

The BAD sessions are lookin more and more interesting as I look into them. Me thinks there may be two completely different sessions for BAD. ME thinks BAD was to originally be released sometime in 84 after VICTORY or in 85. We do know he was recording for the new album as early as 1983. Also, supposedly Epic stopped the release or Jermaine's Arista single "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin" as they said if would interfere with MJ's upcoming release, BAD. I do think it was gonna be released sometime in 85, but with the success of THRILLER, why put out BAD so soon? THRILLER was still selling like hotcakes, so no reason to put out another album on the market at the same time.

So, I think he started to work on the record again after the THRILLER craze died down a bit. And then. from some other sources, BAD was to be a 3-Set LP with 30 songs.

[Edited 2/17/11 23:31pm]

you make some great points there... i have heard this before, so you may be absolutely right.

Unholyalliance said:

MJJstudent said:

i don't think your interpretation of the 'way you make me feel' video is wrong (as it is your interpretation)... i must say it still disturbed me. why is michael stalking this woman? leave her alone! let her be, let her go to where she is going in peace. his relentlessness is not only unattractive, but frightening. again, i have had this same thing happen to me (by both strangers AND people i thought were friends), and i had to put a stop to it. i wasn't giving off any signals that i was in the slightest bit attracted to them. there is a point where it's important to read body language. how tatiana gave in was very disappointing, and i think set back women in a lot of ways. it was as if she was weak and could not defend herself. what is this 'weak/helpless woman' crap? i mean she was already so skinny that you could break her in half. and then she couldn't put her stilettos up somebody's ass for stalking her? no way... no way!

lol I just found this today:

http://www.washingtoncity...n-edition/

Off-screen, Jackson's sex life was notoriously tortured—rumors in the press pegged Jackson alternately as a lifelong virgin, a pedophile, and a freak. In his music videos, we saw Jackson play with sexual violence and physical domination in order to portray the image of complete sexual control.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "The Way You Make Me Feel"

Relevant Lyrics:

Why It's So Rapey: In the "Billie Jean" video, a rogue Michael Jackson sneaks into a woman's bed at night as he's chased by a band of police. The woman, obscured beneath the covers, shows no sign of being awake, or in fact registering Jackson's presence at all! The sheets nevertheless erupt into a metaphorical flash of light, signifying doin' it. Then, Jackson vanishes into thin air, underlining the song's assertion that Billie Jean is totally lying about all of this. Tragically for MJ, charges of sexual assault weren't relegated to the fictional sphere: Jackson was acquitted of sex abuse allegations in 2005.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "Thriller"

Relevant Lyrics:

They're out to get you, there's demons closing in on every side
They will possess you unless you change that number on your dial
Now is the time for you and I to cuddle close together, yeah
All through the night I'll save you from the terror on the screen
I'll make you see

That this is thriller, thriller night
'Cause I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try
Thriller, thriller night
So let me hold you tight and share a
Killer, diller, chiller, thriller here tonight

Why It's So Rapey: In "Thriller," a young man attempts to scare his date by taunting herwith horror film phantoms—and insisting that she needs to come home with him to avoid them.

There's a domestic violence lesson to be learned here: The guy who insists that you need his protection in return for sexual favors (implied) is actually much more dangerous than any of the shit he's claiming to protect you from. (" I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try.") In the case of "Thriller," the bogeyman keeping the girl close to Jackson takes the form of ghouls, blood-seeking creatures, and "the thing with forty eyes." In real life, the phantom dangers abusive men use to make women stay include "never being able to find a guy like me again," "being unhappy forever," and/or "doing it for the kids."

I refuse to read this nonsense..

Unholyalliance said:

MJJstudent said:

i don't think your interpretation of the 'way you make me feel' video is wrong (as it is your interpretation)... i must say it still disturbed me. why is michael stalking this woman? leave her alone! let her be, let her go to where she is going in peace. his relentlessness is not only unattractive, but frightening. again, i have had this same thing happen to me (by both strangers AND people i thought were friends), and i had to put a stop to it. i wasn't giving off any signals that i was in the slightest bit attracted to them. there is a point where it's important to read body language. how tatiana gave in was very disappointing, and i think set back women in a lot of ways. it was as if she was weak and could not defend herself. what is this 'weak/helpless woman' crap? i mean she was already so skinny that you could break her in half. and then she couldn't put her stilettos up somebody's ass for stalking her? no way... no way!

lol I just found this today:

http://www.washingtoncity...n-edition/

Off-screen, Jackson's sex life was notoriously tortured—rumors in the press pegged Jackson alternately as a lifelong virgin, a pedophile, and a freak. In his music videos, we saw Jackson play with sexual violence and physical domination in order to portray the image of complete sexual control.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "The Way You Make Me Feel"

Relevant Lyrics:

Why It's So Rapey: In the "Billie Jean" video, a rogue Michael Jackson sneaks into a woman's bed at night as he's chased by a band of police. The woman, obscured beneath the covers, shows no sign of being awake, or in fact registering Jackson's presence at all! The sheets nevertheless erupt into a metaphorical flash of light, signifying doin' it. Then, Jackson vanishes into thin air, underlining the song's assertion that Billie Jean is totally lying about all of this. Tragically for MJ, charges of sexual assault weren't relegated to the fictional sphere: Jackson was acquitted of sex abuse allegations in 2005.

Michael Jackson Date Rape Anthem: "Thriller"

Relevant Lyrics:

They're out to get you, there's demons closing in on every side
They will possess you unless you change that number on your dial
Now is the time for you and I to cuddle close together, yeah
All through the night I'll save you from the terror on the screen
I'll make you see

That this is thriller, thriller night
'Cause I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try
Thriller, thriller night
So let me hold you tight and share a
Killer, diller, chiller, thriller here tonight

Why It's So Rapey: In "Thriller," a young man attempts to scare his date by taunting herwith horror film phantoms—and insisting that she needs to come home with him to avoid them.

There's a domestic violence lesson to be learned here: The guy who insists that you need his protection in return for sexual favors (implied) is actually much more dangerous than any of the shit he's claiming to protect you from. (" I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try.") In the case of "Thriller," the bogeyman keeping the girl close to Jackson takes the form of ghouls, blood-seeking creatures, and "the thing with forty eyes." In real life, the phantom dangers abusive men use to make women stay include "never being able to find a guy like me again," "being unhappy forever," and/or "doing it for the kids."

i am probably alone when i see the points in this... those are actually some of my least favourite songs too. it's no secret that michael had issues with women, due to how he grew up. so i can see where this piece is coming from. i don't see these interpretations as stupid at all. i definitely see michael playing with violence in ways which were not healthy. and popular culture conditions us to ignore and accept it. and people who speak out against it are seen as 'reading too much into it', or being 'no fun'.

we have yet to take sexual abuse of women (and men, boys and girls) seriously. thanks for posting this.

SherryJackson said:

Look I'm all up for interpretation...but that...they just ruined some of my favourites right there.

I think first off, song choice is weak. Two, it's the wrong angle they chose for those. And three....the time they published this was in extreme bad taste if you ask me.

i can totally see where the piece is coming from. when i first saw the 'thriller' film as a child, it gave me nightmares. on one hand i see it as a guy saving a girl from a scary movie. on the other hand i do see violence in it. women rarely if ever defend themselves in michael's world. they always have to be saved. i find problems with that.

i love michael, but this is probably the largest issue i have with him.

Timmy84 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I was just beginning to wonder if this damn thing...was on!

I feel ya.

i like the clips too, but since this is a forum for discussing "everything and anything MJ", when can there be a space to discuss the more serious issues affecting his art? i don't ever see a space for that, so when i see it here, it makes me happy that people are actually thinking about it, and processing these things.

what michael did was not just 'entertainment'. it made me mad when he kept using that word. 'escapism'. what he did represented a lot in the socio-political sphere. he denied himself that voice, until he began to openly speak out in the 1990s. this is the michael i love.

i keep asking, but no one is answering me... is there a public space/forum where people discuss michael in a space other than the dreaded 'entertainment' realm? i mean, forums like this, that aren't relegated to an academic environment?

it gets frustrating to always be seen as crazy, when i try to discuss michael as a serious figure, not just numbed by entertaining people. he had such a political voice, and was well-versed in it. his conversations with shmuley are an example of that. WHERE'S THAT DISCUSSION OF MICHAEL?

if i were to post stuff like this in the political forums, i would think it would get pushed back to here. so, what does a person like me (and others interested in the political side of michael and the culture) do?

thanks.

sag10 said:

Unholyalliance said:

Why It's So Rapey: In "Thriller," a young man attempts to scare his date by taunting herwith horror film phantoms—and insisting that she needs to come home with him to avoid them.

There's a domestic violence lesson to be learned here: The guy who insists that you need his protection in return for sexual favors (implied) is actually much more dangerous than any of the shit he's claiming to protect you from. (" I can thrill you more than any ghost would ever dare try.") In the case of "Thriller," the bogeyman keeping the girl close to Jackson takes the form of ghouls, blood-seeking creatures, and "the thing with forty eyes." In real life, the phantom dangers abusive men use to make women stay include "never being able to find a guy like me again," "being unhappy forever," and/or "doing it for the kids."

I refuse to read this nonsense..

why is it nonsense? because you dis-agree with it, or it makes you uncomfortable? i think there are valid points here. points we as a society need to discuss in trelation to the perpetuation of sexual violence in popular culture. michael was not immune to that. it's something we need to acknowledge. i don't think it's a bad thing.

i was led to this forum because i thought there would be more serious discussions on his art; deeper than usually had. this would also include some serious, in depth critique. but i find myself running into a lot of the same issues as with other michael-based forums; so i find myself alone in a lot of my views. i keep receiving the message that 'this is not the space to do that'.

frankly, i think the WORLD is the space to do that. apparently the world does not agree with me. in this instantaneous world we no longer have in-depth conversations. we live in 'text message' culture, where everything is abbreviated. even in our in-person conversations we are text-messaging people or looking on our laptops.

it's difficult for me to live in a world like this. i obviously have not caught up with the world yet. i take my role of a student of michael's teachings very seriously. he isn't just a singer or an entertainer to me. one of the tenents of his teachings to me is to "always question your teachers". teaching and learning are reciprocal. if i don't critique my teacher, how can i learn from him?

we've come to the point in this society where 'to critique is to hate'. we're no longer encouraged to have impassioned dialogs about the state of the earth. we've come to the point where our views are shaped by five words to one sentence. it's difficult to live in a world like that. it is a very cold, uncaring world we have become; where technology is supposed to help us communicate, but it has hindered us and limited our abilities to share our take on things. because if we share more than a few words, it's just too much and it gets ignored.

so i just wanna say thanks for letting me share some of this experience with you; but ultimately this whole thing is not for me.

thanks, and peace...

MJJstudent said:

i was led to this forum because i thought there would be more serious discussions on his art; deeper than usually had. this would also include some serious, in depth critique. but i find myself running into a lot of the same issues as with other michael-based forums; so i find myself alone in a lot of my views. i keep receiving the message that 'this is not the space to do that'.

frankly, i think the WORLD is the space to do that. apparently the world does not agree with me. in this instantaneous world we no longer have in-depth conversations. we live in 'text message' culture, where everything is abbreviated. even in our in-person conversations we are text-messaging people or looking on our laptops.

it's difficult for me to live in a world like this. i obviously have not caught up with the world yet. i take my role of a student of michael's teachings very seriously. he isn't just a singer or an entertainer to me. one of the tenents of his teachings to me is to "always question your teachers". teaching and learning are reciprocal. if i don't critique my teacher, how can i learn from him?

we've come to the point in this society where 'to critique is to hate'. we're no longer encouraged to have impassioned dialogs about the state of the earth. we've come to the point where our views are shaped by five words to one sentence. it's difficult to live in a world like that. it is a very cold, uncaring world we have become; where technology is supposed to help us communicate, but it has hindered us and limited our abilities to share our take on things. because if we share more than a few words, it's just too much and it gets ignored.

so i just wanna say thanks for letting me share some of this experience with you; but ultimately this whole thing is not for me.

thanks, and peace...

I would encourage you to stick around. Sometimes you may not get the answer you are looking for right away, but that is life, and the fact remains that we have better MJ related discussions here than anywhere else I've found online.

What are you willing to discuss at this moment?

"Wednesday, January 26, 2011 was the 12th anniversary of Carnival, a monthly choreographer's showcase in Hollywood and Travis Payne was the honored guest of the evening. Travis's assistant, Stacy Walker, invited the dancers from "This Is It" to perform part of a tribute piece for Travis with some of the original "Dangerous" dancers from Michael Jackson's iconic AMA and VMA performances.

For the first time since September of 2009, I finally took the stage with part of my brilliantly talented "This Is It" family again and it felt so nice. I also got the opportunity to share the stage with some of the dancers who I studied on TV when I was a little Michael Jackson fan growing up. Jason Yribar, Cris Judd, Edgar Godineaux, and Courtney Miller, I spent hours and hours with my TV facing my mirror watching you, learning the moves while wearing out my VHS tapes! Thank you for being part of such an influential moment that inspired me when I was little and still inspires me today. Travis, the work you did with LaVelle and Courtney helped shape the choreographer I am now. And thanks for urging me to come to the "This Is It" auditions even though I'm so short!

Thank you Michael.

L.O.V.E.
Chucky
P.S. from 5:50 to 6:05, I dedicated my moment to all the nice MJ fans of the world."

Militant said:

MJJstudent said:

i was led to this forum because i thought there would be more serious discussions on his art; deeper than usually had. this would also include some serious, in depth critique. but i find myself running into a lot of the same issues as with other michael-based forums; so i find myself alone in a lot of my views. i keep receiving the message that 'this is not the space to do that'.

frankly, i think the WORLD is the space to do that. apparently the world does not agree with me. in this instantaneous world we no longer have in-depth conversations. we live in 'text message' culture, where everything is abbreviated. even in our in-person conversations we are text-messaging people or looking on our laptops.

it's difficult for me to live in a world like this. i obviously have not caught up with the world yet. i take my role of a student of michael's teachings very seriously. he isn't just a singer or an entertainer to me. one of the tenents of his teachings to me is to "always question your teachers". teaching and learning are reciprocal. if i don't critique my teacher, how can i learn from him?

we've come to the point in this society where 'to critique is to hate'. we're no longer encouraged to have impassioned dialogs about the state of the earth. we've come to the point where our views are shaped by five words to one sentence. it's difficult to live in a world like that. it is a very cold, uncaring world we have become; where technology is supposed to help us communicate, but it has hindered us and limited our abilities to share our take on things. because if we share more than a few words, it's just too much and it gets ignored.

so i just wanna say thanks for letting me share some of this experience with you; but ultimately this whole thing is not for me.

thanks, and peace...

I would encourage you to stick around. Sometimes you may not get the answer you are looking for right away, but that is life, and the fact remains that we have better MJ related discussions here than anywhere else I've found online.

What are you willing to discuss at this moment?

i'm mostly into discussing the socio-political issues relating to his art. or the technical stuff, like the microphones he used. the engineering stuff. talking about people like bruce swedien. i'm not really into discussing his looks, or the 'moonwalk'/backslide. if we talk about that stuff, i'm interested in pulling it all apart. getting to the roots of the issues.

i'm into doing some heavy, serious critique of his art and works. digging beyond the surface. and not feeling like i am a bad person for wanting that. i see words like 'stupid' posted here, simply for a critique of his perceived treatment of women. i think what he does warrants critique, on a forum with others who happen to like him as well.

i just can't deal with the 'oh he's cute' things. or the 'that song is great!' thing, without explaining the muscle of the song. i wanna know WHY people like the song, the technical reasons. i wanna get into it. i wanna have a dialog.

MJJstudent said:

i was led to this forum because i thought there would be more serious discussions on his art; deeper than usually had. this would also include some serious, in depth critique. but i find myself running into a lot of the same issues as with other michael-based forums; so i find myself alone in a lot of my views. i keep receiving the message that 'this is not the space to do that'.

It took me about a couple of days to get through the rage inducing first paragraph of you original response to my post. I need some time to think of an appropiate response for you that would open up for more discussion rather than a full blown argument. I think you also need to give it some time, at least for me, I need it. It requires some thinking. I had a response ready for you, but I had found the article instead so I posted that up instead it's enough to keep people busy or to start some convo in the meantime.

I do know what you are saying though. It's hard to find a place where you can openly discuss his art w/o people wanting to start talking about how much they love him, how cute he was, how his death and life really moved people. Or how when some news comes out, example: He used to pinch his nipples in his the confines of his bathroom gets a TON of responses. While this has nothing to do with his art, I think it shows something else even more significant. WHY does this happen amongst fans? The ones that are interested in talking about it are ususally the ones that like slam everything that he did post-80s.

Every other music fandom can have indepth discussions about the music of their idol, except for MJ it seems. It reminds me of this video where this dude said that 'This Is It was boring because no one is interested in Michael Jackson's work, because his music was never as interesting as the man himself." That shit made me rage so hard, but everyday it seems to be true.

But never fret, there are some books that are being released that speak about his music. I'm excited for those.

for instance, i want to discuss how this song pertains to the universal laws:

my hope is to have in depth, philisophical, political discussions about the teacher.

Unholyalliance said:

MJJstudent said:

i was led to this forum because i thought there would be more serious discussions on his art; deeper than usually had. this would also include some serious, in depth critique. but i find myself running into a lot of the same issues as with other michael-based forums; so i find myself alone in a lot of my views. i keep receiving the message that 'this is not the space to do that'.

It took me about a couple of days to get through the rage inducing first paragraph of you original response to my post. I need some time to think of an appropiate response for you that would open up for more discussion rather than a full blown argument. I think you also need to give it some time, at least for me, I need it. It requires some thinking. I had a response ready for you, but I had found the article instead so I posted that up instead it's enough to keep people busy or to start some convo in the meantime.

I do know what you are saying though. It's hard to find a place where you can openly discuss his art w/o people wanting to start talking about how much they love him, how cute he was, how his death and life really moved people. Or how when some news comes out, example: He used to pinch his nipples in his the confines of his bathroom gets a TON of responses. While this has nothing to do with his art, I think it shows something else even more significant. WHY does this happen amongst fans? The ones that are interested in talking about it are ususally the ones that like slam everything that he did post-80s.

Every other music fandom can have indepth discussions about the music of their idol, except for MJ it seems. It reminds me of this video where this dude said that 'This Is It was boring because no one is interested in Michael Jackson's work, because his music was never as interesting as the man himself." That shit made me rage so hard, but everyday it seems to be true.

But never fret, there are some books that are being released that speak about his music. I'm excited for those.

thanks for the response... i like the bruce swedien book actually. the books which talk philisophically about him, i find end up calling him the archangel, or say he's perfect. there's no true critiques in general, like the one you posted.

i do acknowledge that i get impatient with stuff like this: you would not be the only one to let me know. when i don't see an immediate response i just assume people are not listening. it's pretty obvious people love him though; i think the deepest sign of that love is also calling him out on things. letting him slide on the faults (when you critique anyone else on it) is not love.

i think it's an even larger love when there is a deeper appreciation for what he gave to us; when the dialog grows beyond the superficiality. i think what he gave to us warrants a larger conversation about politics, spirituality, the notion of family, and how we treat ourselves, and each other. the day i find these conversations dominating our sensibilities when it comes to michael, i will be so pleased.