Timmy84 said:

Some of the songs on "Bad" had been worked on since '84 lol

Dirty Diana is registered in 1983.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Some of the songs on "Bad" had been worked on since '84 lol

Dirty Diana is registered in 1983.

Yeah I did read that somewhere.

Apparently Taxi Cab by R. Kelly was for MJ too.

What's the deal with Groove of Midnight? I know about the really short snippet that leaked... Was the song ever finished by MJ? I know it got recorded by Siedah Garrett for her album. So they had Temperton come in to work on Bad but that must have been short lived...

Derek1984 said:

What's the deal with Groove of Midnight? I know about the really short snippet that leaked... Was the song ever finished by MJ? I know it got recorded by Siedah Garrett for her album. So they had Temperton come in to work on Bad but that must have been short lived...

I doubt it was a Bad outtake, if Temperton is on it.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Derek1984 said:

What's the deal with Groove of Midnight? I know about the really short snippet that leaked... Was the song ever finished by MJ? I know it got recorded by Siedah Garrett for her album. So they had Temperton come in to work on Bad but that must have been short lived...

I doubt it was a Bad outtake, if Temperton is on it.

Rod worked on songs for Bad but none of the songs didn't make the cut

bboy87 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I doubt it was a Bad outtake, if Temperton is on it.

Rod worked on songs for Bad but none of the songs didn't make the cut

yeah... i wonder if that's because michael consistently spoke about how he hated repeating himself... or shall i say, he talked about never wanting to look to the past? perhaps michael felt the temperton songs presented to him would have been a repeat of 'thriller'. some of those songs he was working on around that time which ended up on later albums took on a completely different shape by the time it officially was released.

i am actually most curious at how 'liberian girl' initially sounded like, since he began working on that in 1983 or so as well. i for one am certainly glad he never repeated the sounds of thriller. about three, maybe four songs even sound remotely like traditional jones productions on the bd album. and i'm actually okay with that. i'm sure i'm in the minority. but i do like the way michael worked, in terms of arrangement and sound. i think if he stayed with quincy his ideas would have been heavily compromised.

Swa said:

MJJstudent said:

hmmm... i don't see that. i see him more as trying to find his voice. but here is when he began to speak more political messages. this is the michael i love and appreciate the most, more than his romantic love songs. i think his 'toughness' was kind of playful, save 'the way you make me feel' and 'dirty diana'. and 'black or white' part 2.

I tend to think Michael really found his voice on Off The Wall. Everything leading up to it was building to that moment - drawing on his influences. With Off The Wall a new sense of confidence was coming through, it was more Michael going for what he wanted.

yeah... listening to 'forever, michael, you could hear what we would come to know. also, this performance:

this is one of my favourite J5 performances of all times. you hear the inflections, the gruffness... the charisma, the lightening-speed presicion. to me, 1975 was the beginnings of what we came to see when he was an adult. also, this performance:

this is another one of my favourites. absolutely phenomenal. not too fond of the 'perm' era of michael and jermaine, but he is so spot on here it's kind of scary. how someone honed his skill at such an age. i mean, people have always been performing since very young ages, but very few people have mastered their art in the ways michael has.

Derek1984 said:

I think Michael "found his voice" on Push Me Away. Actually, that track might display the best of his vocals ever recorded.

DEFINITELY one of the best he's ever recorded. that song is sheer perfection. there's a lot of hurt in that song. i think the songs where he's channeling some sort of pain are his best ones. because he's coming with the realness.

Vanilli said:

zhare said:

i love this pic

Same here. To all those people who say MJ changed so much from when he was a kid

up till his final years...I love how this picture, and Michael's smile especially proves...

some things never change.

he looks really happy; he's with his teacher.

MJJstudent said:

hmmmm... i'm not saying he is right or wrong... as i said, whatever he does is between him and GOD. i was just stating how I feel about the situation. what i say may not necessarily matter to him, i realize that. all i can do is state how i would have like to see things go down. that's all i got. unfortunately, we are here in a forum, where we can't exactly explain everything how we want to. people already tell me i write too much. i could always write more on the subject, but who knows if people would read it? i write and have discussions on these things all the time though.

I think that you should not inhibit yourself when it comes to expressing yourself properly on a message board. I mean if some people complain about length, then tough titties to them.

MJJstudent said:

i just wished we lived in a world where we would not have to play out relationships in the way it was shown in the video. this whole thing is beyond michael. we are essentially saying the same thing though, we just have different ways of saying it.

=/ So you wish to live in a world that goes against the very basis of human nature?!?

MJJstudent said:

i do get what michael was saying in the songs you named though- he didn't exactly have positive male or female role models in his developing years... this led to his notion of how women were, according to interviews with him. i get it.

I think it's cool to try and understand the artist behind the work, as it does give some insight into the piece, but at the same time I think it's important to be able to look at the piece sepearately from the artist as well. The work is from the artist, but not, necessarily, a reflection of the artist entirely. While I will agree that there are concurring themes in his work and they did mature as he became older, I think there's a time when you have to still look at the work independently of the artist too you know?

Well, personally, I always felt that the video for The Way You Make Me Feel was an exaggerration of the mating ritual or just another 'boy meets girl' story. Here is something close to it in real life:

All in all the video is still this at its basic:

Mj's character, Daryll I think it was (I could be wrong, probably from the Bad video), is different from the other men who are hanging out on the corner. He dresses differently from them and is sort of introverted to their extrovertedness. He sees a pretty girl pass by and wants to gain her attention. So after his first failed attempt garnered some ridicule from the 'homeboys' he then decides to assert his masculinity by calling out to her. Once he has her undivided attention, he walks up to her and begins to sing a song for as he starts to show off his dance moves to her. In the video, Tatianna's character goes from total indifference to hate/annoyance to playful flirting. All the while MJ's character shows an amazing amount of relentlessness as he continues to pursue the object of his affection using his dancing to capture her heart. By the climax of the video he completely disappears, leaving the maiden curious and confused. The sudden darkness gives us a sense of danger and mysteriousness. Where did MJ's character go? Where did all these guys come from? Who released the lock on the fire hydrant? All is answered when, in reality, the rest of his buddies have emerged from the darkness to help out their friend as they all engage in the ultimate courtship dance, of sorts if you want to call it that. In the resolution of the video, the lovely maiden has been smitten by the protagonist's attempts and she has fallen for him as he had for her.

While there are some things in the video that could be up for interpretation and even though this is still an interpretation of it, I think I am not wrong in believing that this is as close as you can get to what MJ and everyone else who worked on the project had in mind when the video was being conceptualized and created. I mean, we can talk about some cases the video where it begins to look more like a horror movie as in one scene Tatianna's character seems to be desperately trying to open the locked door to the building in an attempt to escape, but alas this is still art and exaggerations still work best in trying to convey ideas, especially in storytelling.

For Dirty Diana, what you are labeling as 'objectification' is a very popular technique that is utilized in order to give a more personal experience to the viewer. Example, in a lot of Japanese hentai, eroges (erotic games) and a/v's (adult videos) the male's face is either darkened or not even shown at all. This helps for the males to inject themselves into to action as they are the man having sex with the female character or actress. This is, almost, the entire concept to 1st person shooters, such as Halo and The House of the Dead series. By hiding Diana's identity in the video, the viewer is allowed for their imagination to run free. Who is Diana? Some will think Diana Ross, but it's up to you, the viewer. Michael did this before in Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough when he didn't specify what he was singing about and in Billie Jean there was just this random figure that he got into bed with. We don't even know if it was human. We are left to just imagine it.

Though, while the music may not have had a huge influence on his own yet, it seems that hip hop had a strong influence on MJ's image during the late 80s. This major historical factor gets forgotten a lot when people talk about Bad era MJ it seems.

SherryJackson said:

Yeah, I'ma have to agree with you there. Some of the fangirls can get rather...uh...wild...about that. There used to be a time when I'd post a lot of Michael pics on my profile, but the comments got so disgusting I had to take the majority of them down. I mean, I have kids on my facebook too that are MJ fans...and I can't have them seeing that. Look it's ok to have your fantasies and what not, but be careful where you say them, fo'reals! I'm not a prude, I just expected a little better than that. Nothing wrong with showing admiration though.

And girl, I've been grappling with the definition of "normal" since the very beginning! Like democracy, it has no definition really. The closest I've ever gotten to "normal" was standing next to my dishwashing machine on "normal wash". But jokes aside, yes Michael was very self-conscious about how people percieved him. Me, I always saw him as a regular guy. I mean, when he's not performing or nothin', I'd expect him to be at home relaxing, watching a movie, or out with his friend, sittin' on the curb, watch the pretty girls go by (this was my opinion formulated when I was 11 ). I know Michael loved watching women, observing their mannerisms, noting distinct features about them, even as a kid. That's a rare thing in a guy...I'm glad he was like that. He appreciated women in their entirety...not merely as objects.

Man, you too? Something people don't know about me is..I was raised in a very strict, Arab home. My mother and father were and still are wonderful parents, but sexuality or boy-talk wasn't something you talked about openly or candidly. It was a private affair. And I'm much the same way now. When I was younger, I acted the way my parents raised me and a lot of kids thought I wasn't normal because they thought I didn't like boys like the other girls did. Which isn't true..I did. I just didn't talk about it. Besides, at that age, who can you talk with really? No one thought i was gay, they just thought I was strange because I was more into books and music than chasing boys or going on dates. But eh, whatever....

And I loooove it when our man Mike start preachin'. So inspiring to hear him talk. And what's great about him is..he practices what he preaches. He backs up what he preaches with actions. His numerous charity works are testament to that.

As far as sexy goes, if by that you mean i find Michael to be sexually attractive....then the answer is yes. But it goes beyond that. I find him to be a caring, gentle, and loving soul...and that greatly eclipses the latter. I admire him for that, and I try to emulate his example. The fact he was also physically beautiful doesn't matter much without these qualities. And yes, I love his eyes and hands too. Musician's hands...I've always wanted to draw them...but never got around to it. One day I will though...I wanted to do drawings of him when he was still around...but when he passed away i never got the strength back to draw him. One day, it'll come though.

He's my teacher as well, and I'm still learning from him. You really should check some of my facebook notes.

[Edited 2/15/11 1:15am]

you're sherry jackson on facebook?

yeah, i keep commenting on how these people talk about how they want to RAPE him and such. it's like, REALLY? REALLY??!! people also speak about how they are going to have sex with him, even though his body isn't physically here. it's pretty disturbing.

i don't put pictures of michael on my page, really... i post a lot of articles on him, as well as write a lot of notes. the most i do is post the collection of michael stuff i have (it doesn't seem like it's something i'll ever finish doing). but i don't really like talking to a lot of the fan base because i am tired of getting grief because i don't think the man is perfect. frankly, i'm still pretty young (clue: i'm as old as michael a year or so after 'dangerous' was released); but i'm WAAAY too old to be drooling over some man i never even knew when he was here. he's grown, and is not immune from critique. i'm more into speaking about the issues concerning his teachings and legacy than anything else.

on democracy: it does have a definition; we just haven't felt its true form yet. back to michael: i think he was about as 'normal' as he could be, in a world where he was more or less sheltered from dealing with people in the outside world. what would anyone expect from someone who was raised in a performance fishbowl? and that that's all people demand from him?

yeah, when he was a kid he and his brothers used to watch women through the peephole. it's something he's maintained, albeit in a different format. i think in some ways he saw women as objects- because that's pretty much all he saw. women who sold sex. strippers, groupies... his brothers' wives. he had no real example of morality in women. he's always maintained his mother was perfect, but she threw down too! she cold beat down gina sprague (who was the secretary at joe's office), allegedly bringing her two children with her... them jacksons did not play around.

i don't believe for one second that michael was as gentle as people think he is. i think how he acted was a reaction to how he grew up, but if he had to he faught back. pople took him to be a pushover. there is no way he would have made it 45 years in the business by being a pushover. they saw his resiliance and they had to kill it. i think he was very kind to people, but the way people talk bout him they act like he's a piece of porcealin, capable of breaking at any moment. people made fun of him all the tim, and he handled his business. he had more of a sense of humor about himself than a lot of people i've met in the fan base have about him.

my household wasn't that strict, but like michael i grew up in an abusive home, where sexuality was not a very positive thing. in many ways that did shape my views. did you grow up christian or muslim? zoroastrian? or did you just grow up culturally arab?

yeah... i don't find michael sexually attractive really... the sexiest i think he was (if at all) was in the 'in the closet' and 'blood on the dance floor' videos. he wasn't particularly overt about it, which is what made it attractive. he was assertive, but not aggressive. in terms of looks, here is where i find him phenomenally gorgeous; just sheer perfection:

how his father used his looks against him in order to control michael is a shame. the man was perfect. again, i think he was still beautiful way after this, but there is no denying the sheer perfection of michael here. GOD indeed blessed that family with some beautiful genes.

michael was a virgo, tried and true. and virgos are really hard to deal with at times, if you don't recognise their patterns. i think this may be why a lot of people thought he was weird. since my closest friends are usually virgos though, i see michael straight through. there ain't nothin' strange about him. ultimately i think he was too free to really be with any one person; at least this is a trait i see with the virgos in my life. so the nature is to heal a lot of people in some way. this is what he did in his art. he made people feel happy. but it most likely didn't necessarily make him happy, because it was impossible to have true relationships.

i was writing a book for two years on him when he transcended, so i know what you mean...

bboy87 said:

For those that don't know, there's someone who's selling a copy of "Hot Fever" which is the original version of The Way You Make Me Feel from 1985

So let's see, what is available from the 1985-1987 Bad sessions

Bad

The Way You Make Me Feel

Speed Demon

Liberian Girl

Just Good Friends

Another Part Of Me

Man In The Mirror

I Just Can't Stop Loving You

Dirty Diana

Smooth Criminal

Leave Me Alone

Streetwalker

Fly Away

Groove Of Midnight (snippet)

Cheater

Come Together

We Are Here To Change The World

songs that we know about but aren't circulating

Buffalo Bill

What You Do To Me

Strawberry Fields Forever

Tomboy

Hot Fever

The Price Of Fame

Crack Kills

Al Capone

Michael McKeller

Don't Be Messin' Around (originally for the Thriller album)

Chicago 1945

Get Around

Someone Put Your Hand Out (earlier version)

Turning Me Off

I wanna hear ALL those! From what I can remember, Crack Kills was never even recorded and Buffalo Bill goes back to 83 and I know the hook is "Who shot Buffalo Bill? They said he shot a lot, did he ever get killed?" I wanna hear his remake to Strawberry Fields

MJJstudent said:

bboy87 said:

Rod worked on songs for Bad but none of the songs didn't make the cut

yeah... i wonder if that's because michael consistently spoke about how he hated repeating himself... or shall i say, he talked about never wanting to look to the past? perhaps michael felt the temperton songs presented to him would have been a repeat of 'thriller'. some of those songs he was working on around that time which ended up on later albums took on a completely different shape by the time it officially was released.

i am actually most curious at how 'liberian girl' initially sounded like, since he began working on that in 1983 or so as well. i for one am certainly glad he never repeated the sounds of thriller. about three, maybe four songs even sound remotely like traditional jones productions on the bd album. and i'm actually okay with that. i'm sure i'm in the minority. but i do like the way michael worked, in terms of arrangement and sound. i think if he stayed with quincy his ideas would have been heavily compromised.

I dont think it was because MJ didnt like repeating himself, I think he became confident enough to write his OWN songs. I'm sure Rod did have songs submitted for Bad, but most likely they didn't fit the direction MJ was going for

ViintageJunkiie said:

MJJstudent said:

yeah... i wonder if that's because michael consistently spoke about how he hated repeating himself... or shall i say, he talked about never wanting to look to the past? perhaps michael felt the temperton songs presented to him would have been a repeat of 'thriller'. some of those songs he was working on around that time which ended up on later albums took on a completely different shape by the time it officially was released.

i am actually most curious at how 'liberian girl' initially sounded like, since he began working on that in 1983 or so as well. i for one am certainly glad he never repeated the sounds of thriller. about three, maybe four songs even sound remotely like traditional jones productions on the bd album. and i'm actually okay with that. i'm sure i'm in the minority. but i do like the way michael worked, in terms of arrangement and sound. i think if he stayed with quincy his ideas would have been heavily compromised.

I dont think it was because MJ didnt like repeating himself, I think he became confident enough to write his OWN songs. I'm sure Rod did have songs submitted for Bad, but most likely they didn't fit the direction MJ was going for

i think there's a possibility of him not wanting to repeat himself. the thing is, michael had already been writing songs for years. so he could have done an album with just songs HE penned for off the wall or thriller, if he truly wanted to. i think it's a question to be had... i wouldn't rule out any possibilities. as much as i love off the wall, i prefer the direction he went post-thriller.

MJJstudent said:

SherryJackson said:

Yeah, I'ma have to agree with you there. Some of the fangirls can get rather...uh...wild...about that. There used to be a time when I'd post a lot of Michael pics on my profile, but the comments got so disgusting I had to take the majority of them down. I mean, I have kids on my facebook too that are MJ fans...and I can't have them seeing that. Look it's ok to have your fantasies and what not, but be careful where you say them, fo'reals! I'm not a prude, I just expected a little better than that. Nothing wrong with showing admiration though.

And girl, I've been grappling with the definition of "normal" since the very beginning! Like democracy, it has no definition really. The closest I've ever gotten to "normal" was standing next to my dishwashing machine on "normal wash". But jokes aside, yes Michael was very self-conscious about how people percieved him. Me, I always saw him as a regular guy. I mean, when he's not performing or nothin', I'd expect him to be at home relaxing, watching a movie, or out with his friend, sittin' on the curb, watch the pretty girls go by (this was my opinion formulated when I was 11 ). I know Michael loved watching women, observing their mannerisms, noting distinct features about them, even as a kid. That's a rare thing in a guy...I'm glad he was like that. He appreciated women in their entirety...not merely as objects.

Man, you too? Something people don't know about me is..I was raised in a very strict, Arab home. My mother and father were and still are wonderful parents, but sexuality or boy-talk wasn't something you talked about openly or candidly. It was a private affair. And I'm much the same way now. When I was younger, I acted the way my parents raised me and a lot of kids thought I wasn't normal because they thought I didn't like boys like the other girls did. Which isn't true..I did. I just didn't talk about it. Besides, at that age, who can you talk with really? No one thought i was gay, they just thought I was strange because I was more into books and music than chasing boys or going on dates. But eh, whatever....

And I loooove it when our man Mike start preachin'. So inspiring to hear him talk. And what's great about him is..he practices what he preaches. He backs up what he preaches with actions. His numerous charity works are testament to that.

As far as sexy goes, if by that you mean i find Michael to be sexually attractive....then the answer is yes. But it goes beyond that. I find him to be a caring, gentle, and loving soul...and that greatly eclipses the latter. I admire him for that, and I try to emulate his example. The fact he was also physically beautiful doesn't matter much without these qualities. And yes, I love his eyes and hands too. Musician's hands...I've always wanted to draw them...but never got around to it. One day I will though...I wanted to do drawings of him when he was still around...but when he passed away i never got the strength back to draw him. One day, it'll come though.

He's my teacher as well, and I'm still learning from him. You really should check some of my facebook notes.

[Edited 2/15/11 1:15am]

you're sherry jackson on facebook?

yeah, i keep commenting on how these people talk about how they want to RAPE him and such. it's like, REALLY? REALLY??!! people also speak about how they are going to have sex with him, even though his body isn't physically here. it's pretty disturbing.

i don't put pictures of michael on my page, really... i post a lot of articles on him, as well as write a lot of notes. the most i do is post the collection of michael stuff i have (it doesn't seem like it's something i'll ever finish doing). but i don't really like talking to a lot of the fan base because i am tired of getting grief because i don't think the man is perfect. frankly, i'm still pretty young (clue: i'm as old as michael a year or so after 'dangerous' was released); but i'm WAAAY too old to be drooling over some man i never even knew when he was here. he's grown, and is not immune from critique. i'm more into speaking about the issues concerning his teachings and legacy than anything else.

on democracy: it does have a definition; we just haven't felt its true form yet. back to michael: i think he was about as 'normal' as he could be, in a world where he was more or less sheltered from dealing with people in the outside world. what would anyone expect from someone who was raised in a performance fishbowl? and that that's all people demand from him?

yeah, when he was a kid he and his brothers used to watch women through the peephole. it's something he's maintained, albeit in a different format. i think in some ways he saw women as objects- because that's pretty much all he saw. women who sold sex. strippers, groupies... his brothers' wives. he had no real example of morality in women. he's always maintained his mother was perfect, but she threw down too! she cold beat down gina sprague (who was the secretary at joe's office), allegedly bringing her two children with her... them jacksons did not play around.

i don't believe for one second that michael was as gentle as people think he is. i think how he acted was a reaction to how he grew up, but if he had to he faught back. pople took him to be a pushover. there is no way he would have made it 45 years in the business by being a pushover. they saw his resiliance and they had to kill it. i think he was very kind to people, but the way people talk bout him they act like he's a piece of porcealin, capable of breaking at any moment. people made fun of him all the tim, and he handled his business. he had more of a sense of humor about himself than a lot of people i've met in the fan base have about him.

my household wasn't that strict, but like michael i grew up in an abusive home, where sexuality was not a very positive thing. in many ways that did shape my views. did you grow up christian or muslim? zoroastrian? or did you just grow up culturally arab?

yeah... i don't find michael sexually attractive really... the sexiest i think he was (if at all) was in the 'in the closet' and 'blood on the dance floor' videos. he wasn't particularly overt about it, which is what made it attractive. he was assertive, but not aggressive. in terms of looks, here is where i find him phenomenally gorgeous; just sheer perfection:

how his father used his looks against him in order to control michael is a shame. the man was perfect. again, i think he was still beautiful way after this, but there is no denying the sheer perfection of michael here. GOD indeed blessed that family with some beautiful genes.

michael was a virgo, tried and true. and virgos are really hard to deal with at times, if you don't recognise their patterns. i think this may be why a lot of people thought he was weird. since my closest friends are usually virgos though, i see michael straight through. there ain't nothin' strange about him. ultimately i think he was too free to really be with any one person; at least this is a trait i see with the virgos in my life. so the nature is to heal a lot of people in some way. this is what he did in his art. he made people feel happy. but it most likely didn't necessarily make him happy, because it was impossible to have true relationships.

i was writing a book for two years on him when he transcended, so i know what you mean...

Actually.......it's me, Salma. SherryJackson is just my username on here. Long story.

Wait...democracy has a definition now? I must be out of it. Last time I checked....no one could agree on a formative definition. I'ma look that up.

Wow, his mama did that? I never heard of that. I know his mother was not perfect..but out of that family, with the exception of a couple of siblings, she's not that bad I hope. I seriously hope she isn't because she's taking care of his children right now. But you right, Michael never got to see true morality in a woman. I think if he did, things would've turned out different.

You don't believe Michael was gentle? I know he handled business like a grown up and could be serious...but why don't you think he's gentle?

I am a Bahai and was raised in a Bahai household. But my parents were immigrants from Egypt, so they themselves are products of a conservative Muslim country. And they've raised me as such (in terms of morals, behaviour, etc). However my family's religious background is very mixed. My mother's side of the family are Sunni Muslim, my father's side are Egyptian Coptic Christian(his father), with my dad's mother having Iranian roots (i.e Zoroastrian). Yeah...a handful

And those pictures ...yeah, Michael really was a beautiful person outwardly. His smile was just to die for. The first time I saw him was in "Beat It". In my mind, that's how I'll forever see him.

Yup, virgos are hard to deal with. But really, they're sweet people. At least the one's I've met.

I think Michael put his craft above all else really. He enjoyed what he did (I remember reading there wasn't a day that didn't go by without him dancing), but he would overdo it sometimes to the point it felt like a chore (i.e the effort put into touring; he said he "goes thru hell" each time he does). But yes, he made a lot of people happy..and that is, I think, what made it worth it for him in the end.

Did you ever finish that book? If it's anything like your notes, I'm interested in reading it.

MJJstudent said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I dont think it was because MJ didnt like repeating himself, I think he became confident enough to write his OWN songs. I'm sure Rod did have songs submitted for Bad, but most likely they didn't fit the direction MJ was going for

i think there's a possibility of him not wanting to repeat himself. the thing is, michael had already been writing songs for years. so he could have done an album with just songs HE penned for off the wall or thriller, if he truly wanted to. i think it's a question to be had... i wouldn't rule out any possibilities. as much as i love off the wall, i prefer the direction he went post-thriller.

MJ could have made an album with just his music, but like Quincy said, he [MJ] didn't become confident enough in his writing until the Bad session. That's why Quincy had him write all the songs, because he [Quincy] felt MJ's growth. MJ wrote a lot of songs, but he was always embarrassed to present them during album sessions (OTW and Thriller)

Unholyalliance said:

MJJstudent said:

hmmmm... i'm not saying he is right or wrong... as i said, whatever he does is between him and GOD. i was just stating how I feel about the situation. what i say may not necessarily matter to him, i realize that. all i can do is state how i would have like to see things go down. that's all i got. unfortunately, we are here in a forum, where we can't exactly explain everything how we want to. people already tell me i write too much. i could always write more on the subject, but who knows if people would read it? i write and have discussions on these things all the time though.

I think that you should not inhibit yourself when it comes to expressing yourself properly on a message board. I mean if some people complain about length, then tough titties to them.

=/ So you wish to live in a world that goes against the very basis of human nature?!?

MJJstudent said:

i do get what michael was saying in the songs you named though- he didn't exactly have positive male or female role models in his developing years... this led to his notion of how women were, according to interviews with him. i get it.

I think it's cool to try and understand the artist behind the work, as it does give some insight into the piece, but at the same time I think it's important to be able to look at the piece sepearately from the artist as well. The work is from the artist, but not, necessarily, a reflection of the artist entirely. While I will agree that there are concurring themes in his work and they did mature as he became older, I think there's a time when you have to still look at the work independently of the artist too you know?

Well, personally, I always felt that the video for The Way You Make Me Feel was an exaggerration of the mating ritual or just another 'boy meets girl' story. Here is something close to it in real life:

All in all the video is still this at its basic:

Mj's character, Daryll I think it was (I could be wrong, probably from the Bad video), is different from the other men who are hanging out on the corner. He dresses differently from them and is sort of introverted to their extrovertedness. He sees a pretty girl pass by and wants to gain her attention. So after his first failed attempt garnered some ridicule from the 'homeboys' he then decides to assert his masculinity by calling out to her. Once he has her undivided attention, he walks up to her and begins to sing a song for as he starts to show off his dance moves to her. In the video, Tatianna's character goes from total indifference to hate/annoyance to playful flirting. All the while MJ's character shows an amazing amount of relentlessness as he continues to pursue the object of his affection using his dancing to capture her heart. By the climax of the video he completely disappears, leaving the maiden curious and confused. The sudden darkness gives us a sense of danger and mysteriousness. Where did MJ's character go? Where did all these guys come from? Who released the lock on the fire hydrant? All is answered when, in reality, the rest of his buddies have emerged from the darkness to help out their friend as they all engage in the ultimate courtship dance, of sorts if you want to call it that. In the resolution of the video, the lovely maiden has been smitten by the protagonist's attempts and she has fallen for him as he had for her.

While there are some things in the video that could be up for interpretation and even though this is still an interpretation of it, I think I am not wrong in believing that this is as close as you can get to what MJ and everyone else who worked on the project had in mind when the video was being conceptualized and created. I mean, we can talk about some cases the video where it begins to look more like a horror movie as in one scene Tatianna's character seems to be desperately trying to open the locked door to the building in an attempt to escape, but alas this is still art and exaggerations still work best in trying to convey ideas, especially in storytelling.

For Dirty Diana, what you are labeling as 'objectification' is a very popular technique that is utilized in order to give a more personal experience to the viewer. Example, in a lot of Japanese hentai, eroges (erotic games) and a/v's (adult videos) the male's face is either darkened or not even shown at all. This helps for the males to inject themselves into to action as they are the man having sex with the female character or actress. This is, almost, the entire concept to 1st person shooters, such as Halo and The House of the Dead series. By hiding Diana's identity in the video, the viewer is allowed for their imagination to run free. Who is Diana? Some will think Diana Ross, but it's up to you, the viewer. Michael did this before in Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough when he didn't specify what he was singing about and in Billie Jean there was just this random figure that he got into bed with. We don't even know if it was human. We are left to just imagine it.

Though, while the music may not have had a huge influence on his own yet, it seems that hip hop had a strong influence on MJ's image during the late 80s. This major historical factor gets forgotten a lot when people talk about Bad era MJ it seems.

see, the only thing i think that is natural is the ability to produce and bear children, if one is able to do that. all that other stuff that goes around it- the sexuality, to me it's not natural- it's behavioral. we're conditioned to do all these mating rituals in order to attract people. just like we're conditioned that pink is for girls and blue is for boys, we're conditioned that women wear certain things to attract a man, or that men do a certain thing to attract a woman.

see, even a gay man and a gay woman can get together and have children. the sexuality of a person doesn't matter. you are still producing the act to have a child. this is the only thing which is natural. this is how we are similar to other life forms. they do what they do to mate. ultimately that is what humans do as well, but we have become so far removed from all that. and so we just end up with a set of learned behaviors.

i don't particularly see michael's work as being separate from himself though. the greatest artists always put a little of themselves in what they do, for better or for worse, be it musicians, filmmakers, etc. i do believe the video was actually a part of him- the part a lot of us don't want to acknowledge. he was open about having issues with women, he's been open about that for years, with certain comments he would make in interviews or whatever. this is what i see in the video. i see him either angry about something, telling a moral tale, or singing for that love he hoped for. i don't really see him as inauthentic, in terms of his artistry. i think he carried a lot of anger inside of him, and it came out in a lot of his art.

i think his art actually DID reflect who he was entirely, because he was so many different people. he was the child, the survivo/victim; the angry man, a man driven to find love... a man driven to find peace, within himself and the world around him; a man who loved looking at women. a man who looked at women with scorn in some ways. i think his albums looked into the frameworks of his mind. like STEVIE WONDER he was informing us of what was going on inside of him, without saying 'this is what is going on'. that is the brilliance in his work.

again, i'm not really into the 'boy meets girl' or mating ritual' stuff. and this vrsion of it particularly rubbed me the wrong way. i saw a tinge of violence in it that perhaps a lot did not see.

ah yes, daryl; that was the name of his character in the 'bad' film. i preferred that character much better. sadly, that character of daryl was based on the life of edmund perry, who attended exeter (and was set to go to harvard) and was shot by a cop. fortunately, edmund/'daryl' survives.

i don't think your interpretation of the 'way you make me feel' video is wrong (as it is your interpretation)... i must say it still disturbed me. why is michael stalking this woman? leave her alone! let her be, let her go to where she is going in peace. his relentlessness is not only unattractive, but frightening. again, i have had this same thing happen to me (by both strangers AND people i thought were friends), and i had to put a stop to it. i wasn't giving off any signals that i was in the slightest bit attracted to them. there is a point where it's important to read body language. how tatiana gave in was very disappointing, and i think set back women in a lot of ways. it was as if she was weak and could not defend herself. what is this 'weak/helpless woman' crap? i mean she was already so skinny that you could break her in half. and then she couldn't put her stilettos up somebody's ass for stalking her? no way... no way!

i think the 'blood on the dance floor' video was cool, because even though it's another song about a vindictive woman, at least that woman could throw down if she needed to.

"For Dirty Diana, what you are labeling as 'objectification' is a very popular technique that is utilized in order to give a more personal experience to the viewer."

i guess i am not sure how, if someone is being objectified, how could that create a personal experience for someone watching it. if someone is being objectified, it is cold, it is outside of oneself. it seems difficult to identify with the person you are objectifying, as objectifying someone is exerting some sort of control over them. even if you are imagining yourself as the person in that scene (such as the 'darkened faces' you mentioned), you have one goal in mind (as is for porn). i don't see a state of empathy happening at all. halo and house of the dead, are those films?

hmmmm... i see what you mean about his music being left up to interpretation, but for me, i just see michael's clear distrust and paranoia of media and certain individuals. i mean, this began during 'destiny'. 'billie jean' was a long line of videos where he discussed the role of media in his life. i thought that was pretty clear. when he got into bed with the woman i saw that as a play on people discussing his sexuality in the media. and 'dirty diana' was about a groupie. i see it as a cautionary/moral tale. i'm not sure how diana ross is in the picture, as i highly doubt diana ross did any of the stuff stated in the song. but yeah, it is open to interpretation.

i don't think people leave out hip hop as an influence during the 'bad' era... at least not scholars or engineers. i'm really into reading about the technical stuff when it comes to michael and his work, so i see a lot of mentions of his influences and such. but he's always been influenced by hip hop- i mean, he learned a lot of his style from folks like poppin' taco. and of course, james brown was his biggest teacher; and we can't forget how james brown shaped hip hop culture.

Timmy84 said:

Oh Lord, they were gonna call it "Pee"???

Bruce Swedien, I just read on Michael's site, said the working title of the title track to "Bad" was "Pee" and they were also thinking of calling it that.

"Pee"... "Lace"... I swore it was Lace or Lingerie or something like that...

I have heard that Bad was called Pee (the track not the album) and I think it was a Quincy remark about P = Prince as we know the master plan was to have both of them on there.

As for Lace - I've never heard that and it may be a comment made in jest that has been taken as fact over time.

MJJstudent said:

hee hee... i prefer the album version to 'she's out of my life'. i like the dramatic buildup. which demo are you speaking of though, because he recorded that song a lot. the demos i heard of it sound a bit rushed to me, since he was just rehearsing it. i've heard varying stages of the song.

The SOOML demo I speak of is the one on the This Is It deluxe edition - it made me totally appreciate the song in a new light and to me it is the far superior version.

Swa said:

MJJstudent said:

hee hee... i prefer the album version to 'she's out of my life'. i like the dramatic buildup. which demo are you speaking of though, because he recorded that song a lot. the demos i heard of it sound a bit rushed to me, since he was just rehearsing it. i've heard varying stages of the song.

The SOOML demo I speak of is the one on the This Is It deluxe edition - it made me totally appreciate the song in a new light and to me it is the far superior version.

aaaaah, yes, i have heard that one. i have not seen 'this is it'- i have no desire in investing in anything posthumous relating to michael, as i don't believe he co-signed on the product they released. it's just an obvious cash-in for sony and AEG. i highly doubt, as much of a perfectionist as he was he would not want the rehearsal tapes to be released as quickly as they were. i saw the set list for the show, and they were not even remotely finished, by the time they were set to do these shows.

i also have major issues with how AEG has handled things (but you can see my posts about that all over the place). they ran the man into the ground, as did sony. also, as much as he hated touring (he's been saying that since the 80's) it was awfully strange to see him say he was doing this residency. i watched that 5 march speech over and over again, and something did not sit right with me. i wrote about this on the day i saw the 2 and a half-minute speech. looking back, he seemed forced to do it, which is most likely why he didn't really have anything compelling to say. it was also as if he was getting ready to say something he wasn't supposed to say, then stopped himself. he was just really stiff and looked uncomfortable. it was very much like the speech he gave at the last dodgers stadium show on the victory tour.

i have seen so much footage from that tour, and all the footage i have seen, the dude was PISSED! i saw that same energy coming from him with the 'this is it' speech. only his anger gave way to resignation.

out of respect to michael i won't be seeing it. my sister said 'for completion's sake, so you can write a proper commentary of it you need to see it'. on one hand i agree, but i cannot make myself do this. consciously i could not do it.

i don't believe in the 'well, even if it's not what he wanted in full, some of it is better than none at all'. for me, i don't believe in that sort of compromise. i have all i need from michael, relating to his art. unfortunately, michael DID owe sony a bunch of money, so sony is totally milking that.

Swa said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh Lord, they were gonna call it "Pee"???

Bruce Swedien, I just read on Michael's site, said the working title of the title track to "Bad" was "Pee" and they were also thinking of calling it that.

"Pee"... "Lace"... I swore it was Lace or Lingerie or something like that...

I have heard that Bad was called Pee (the track not the album) and I think it was a Quincy remark about P = Prince as we know the master plan was to have both of them on there.

As for Lace - I've never heard that and it may be a comment made in jest that has been taken as fact over time.

i'm sure the lace thing had to do with prince as well. michael had a healthy competive spirit with madonna and prince- the other two artists his age who were doing fairly well, and influenced a bunch of people.

Anyone see this?

http://www.deejay.it/dj/music/artist/special/video/965/4412/Michael

Supposedly he recorded sitting down in a shower.

Superstition said:

Anyone see this?

http://www.deejay.it/dj/music/artist/special/video/965/4412/Michael

Supposedly he recorded sitting down in a shower.

heh heh... i gotta be honest with you, i thought this was a link for a general perspctive on how the man worked, as per your description; so i clicked on it. when i realized the narrator was talking about that 'album' i turned it off, immediately after i heard the word 'estate'.

i think what they are doing with michael's artistic legacy is a disgrace. i have no intentions of purchasing any posthumous materials from sony; but for those who do, at least show some respect to them, as opposed to putting out these weak- and yes, fake- tracks.

the people running the estate appear to not have respect for the fan base either, since they signed off on that mess. i guess it's easy money- and oh well, if the sales fail and the estate can't pay up on their share of the bargain, sony gets another 25% of ATV.

what SHOULD be happening is that the fan base should be driving what comes out, not a bunch of lawyers and record executives. this happened when fans compiled a bunch of songs they wanted to hear, and it got released for michael's 50th birthday.

with that... the fans want wembley footage? well give it to them! not some crappy remix of songs that were already perfect.

Pity we can't hear anything.

dag said:

i have seen this before, but i cannot remember where... is this on the HIStory or 'dangerous' DVD? i have them all on VHS, so they don't have the 'making of' clips. i wanted to get the HIStory DVD because there actually were some 'making of' clips, and that's the stuff i'm really interested in: the process. thanks for posting.

dag said:

Pity we can't hear anything.

you don't know how happy you just made me... i've been feeling pretty down (due to a close friend's transition), and it's been difficult to get back up. but the japan footage makes me happy when i watch it for some reason. and i love his hands so very much. they are absolutely beautiful hands (i love them especially the older he got). he's got old man hands, and i love that. i'm always searching for close-up hand shots of michael's. thank you again...

MJJstudent said:

dag said:

Pity we can't hear anything.

you don't know how happy you just made me... i've been feeling pretty down (due to a close friend's transition), and it's been difficult to get back up. but the japan footage makes me happy when i watch it for some reason. and i love his hands so very much. they are absolutely beautiful hands (i love them especially the older he got). he's got old man hands, and i love that. i'm always searching for close-up hand shots of michael's. thank you again...

Yeah, his hands are something. I was also staring at them with delight. I love his hands - those long, thin fingers. As a man, he's got the most beautiful hands ever.

MJJstudent said:

dag said:

i have seen this before, but i cannot remember where... is this on the HIStory or 'dangerous' DVD? i have them all on VHS, so they don't have the 'making of' clips. i wanted to get the HIStory DVD because there actually were some 'making of' clips, and that's the stuff i'm really interested in: the process. thanks for posting.

This one is not on the dvd, but there is a making of Black or White. Since you're new here, you probably haven't seen this yet. But beware, ladies who've seen it couldn't breathe.