http://bossip.com/327883/...ideo69691/

I didn't know he gave up his publishing rights!!!! Doesn't that mean all those songs that were sampled

they are not getting paid for? I don't know how all that works but isn't that what Prince was fighting for

with WB? wow

I like El's honesty..

I have a longggggg list of' what I wish I knew then..'

[Edited 1/7/11 14:20pm]

RosesRred said:

http://bossip.com/327883/el-debarge-talks-to-black-enterprise-about-5-things-he-wishes-he-knew-then-video69691/

http://bossip.com/?s=el+debarge&x=0&y=0

I didn't know he gave up his publishing rights!!!! Doesn't that mean all those songs that were sampled

they are not getting paid for? I don't know how all that works but isn't that what Prince was fighting for

with WB? wow

I like El's honesty..

I have a longggggg list of' what I wish I knew then..'

[Edited 1/6/11 14:30pm]

I think Bunny talked about her and the rest of the family giving up their rights to Motown in some interview not too long ago.

[Edited 1/6/11 15:23pm]

Motown put them on salary which is messed up in hindsight because they are one the the most sampled and covered rnb groups of all-time.

Motown pretty much ripped off anybody not named Stevie Wonder.

MickyDolenz said:

Motown pretty much ripped off anybody not named Stevie Wonder.

The royalty rate an motown artist got for each album sold was f****** peanuts LOL

thesexofit said:

MickyDolenz said:

Motown pretty much ripped off anybody not named Stevie Wonder.

The royalty rate an motown artist got for each album sold was f****** peanuts LOL

Then they would pay royalties from doctored books that undercounted the sales. But many labels did that back then and probably still do today.

MickyDolenz said:

Motown pretty much ripped off anybody not named Stevie Wonder.

Or Smokey Robinson.

missfee said:

MickyDolenz said:

Motown pretty much ripped off anybody not named Stevie Wonder.

Or Smokey Robinson.

Yep and that's it. Even Diana Ross was virtually broke when she left Motown...and she did the dirtiest work of them all if you know what I mean...

Timmy84 said:

missfee said:

Or Smokey Robinson.

Yep and that's it. Even Diana Ross was virtually broke when she left Motown...and she did the dirtiest work of them all if you know what I mean...

Rick was getting PAID.

Timmy - "Diana Ross was virtually broke." Really?

Mary Wilson came onto a yacht that I was waiting tables on and she was incredibly sweet and engaging. She was working on her third bottle of Crystal at one point and we were talking a little bit, and she said that "Yeah, I'll be going to work in Vegas next, I didn't make that Ms. Ross money." After that she asked me to "run upstairs and grab my slippers, my dogs are killing me."

(Ms. Wilson let me watch her blow dry the glue for her wig into place. Humming a little song all the while. She and Rita Coolidge were bridesmaids for a wedding being held on the yacht and when the bridal party was all ready to go down for the ceramony - 10 smokin', bad ass women in their early 50s decked out in formal black and dripping in diamonds - they busted out with "Going To The Chapel." It really was glorious to witness.]

allsmutaside said:

Timmy84 said:

Yep and that's it. Even Diana Ross was virtually broke when she left Motown...and she did the dirtiest work of them all if you know what I mean...

Rick was getting PAID.

Timmy - "Diana Ross was virtually broke." Really?

Mary Wilson came onto a yacht that I was waiting tables on and she was incredibly sweet and engaging. She was working on her third bottle of Crystal at one point and we were talking a little bit, and she said that "Yeah, I'll be going to work in Vegas next, I didn't make that Ms. Ross money." After that she asked me to "run upstairs and grab my slippers, my dogs are killing me."

(Ms. Wilson let me watch her blow dry the glue for her wig into place. Humming a little song all the while. She and Rita Coolidge were bridesmaids for a wedding being held on the yacht and when the bridal party was all ready to go down for the ceramony - 10 smokin', bad ass women in their early 50s decked out in formal black and dripping in diamonds - they busted out with "Going To The Chapel." It really was glorious to witness.]

You must mean the mid-1980s when Diana left Motown.

Because she DID get rich after that.

Rick was smart to not sign his rights to Berry.

It would take a moron to sign away his or her publishing rights. I mean, cmon! I don't understand why ANYONE would EVER do that. It goes against all logic.

MidniteMagnet said:

It would take a moron to sign away his or her publishing rights. I mean, cmon! I don't understand why ANYONE would EVER do that. It goes against all logic.

With Marvin he had no choice. Harvey Fuqua signed half his rights to Motown so in a way Marvin was stuck. If Marvin had learned how to really negotiate, he would've found a way to still get paid like Rick did. It seems as if Harvey gave him bad advice at the beginning of his career. Even after he began to establish himself, Marvin still felt Motown was following him or snooping on him. Stevie luckily had a stern mother who told him to be independent and he hired his own lawyers and attorneys, people who he knew Berry would be scared to face in court in case of a lawsuit that threatened the core of Motown. Teena Marie was able to establish her own suit and did it successfully despite her close relations with Berry.

Plus you have to know that songwriting, producing, arranging, editing, mixing and session work also gives you a lot of moolah. Many of Motown's groups weren't allowed to do that. Diana Ross didn't even write her own hits so she had to tour. But after leaving she discovered everything she thought she had own was leased by Berry so she had to learn about real estate, about businesses and wanting top cash. She worked VERY hard between 1980 and 1985 to establish her. By the 1990s, she could afford to rest on her laurels because she finally had stock, something she never did have in Motown. Plus she married a richer man than Berry so she was smart.

Mary Wilson on the other hand wasn't so lucky. Neither was Martha Reeves. Gladys Knight is doing real good right now, she didn't have the same tragic flaws as the other Motown women.

Timmy84 said:

allsmutaside said:

Rick was getting PAID.

Timmy - "Diana Ross was virtually broke." Really?

Mary Wilson came onto a yacht that I was waiting tables on and she was incredibly sweet and engaging. She was working on her third bottle of Crystal at one point and we were talking a little bit, and she said that "Yeah, I'll be going to work in Vegas next, I didn't make that Ms. Ross money." After that she asked me to "run upstairs and grab my slippers, my dogs are killing me."

(Ms. Wilson let me watch her blow dry the glue for her wig into place. Humming a little song all the while. She and Rita Coolidge were bridesmaids for a wedding being held on the yacht and when the bridal party was all ready to go down for the ceramony - 10 smokin', bad ass women in their early 50s decked out in formal black and dripping in diamonds - they busted out with "Going To The Chapel." It really was glorious to witness.]

You must mean the mid-1980s when Diana left Motown.

Because she DID get rich after that.

Rick was smart to not sign his rights to Berry.

Diana Ross didn't even write her own hits so she had to tour. But after leaving she discovered everything she thought she had own was leased by Berry so she had to learn about real estate, about businesses and wanting top cash. She worked VERY hard between 1980 and 1985 to establish her. By the 1990s, she could afford to rest on her laurels because she finally had stock, something she never did have in Motown.

O, that makes sense.

I used to wonder what it said about Mr. Gordy's love for Teena that he "let" that bullshit happen to her. But if his work with Diana could have that quality to it, it might not reflect on Teena at all. Money is money is money honey. Motown actually brought the initial lawsuit against T (I think because she was recording/signed with EPIC at a time when she had another year on her contract with Motown) she countersued and won. Rick always said she could be "hard headed." (I think this means "she wouldn't put up with my player bullshit.")

Too bad about El and his family. They certainly deserve better than that considering what brillance they gave to Motown. I think it will be a Switch weekend for me.

allsmutaside said:

Timmy84 said:

You must mean the mid-1980s when Diana left Motown.

Because she DID get rich after that.

Rick was smart to not sign his rights to Berry.

Diana Ross didn't even write her own hits so she had to tour. But after leaving she discovered everything she thought she had own was leased by Berry so she had to learn about real estate, about businesses and wanting top cash. She worked VERY hard between 1980 and 1985 to establish her. By the 1990s, she could afford to rest on her laurels because she finally had stock, something she never did have in Motown.

O, that makes sense.

I used to wonder what it said about Mr. Gordy's love for Teena that he "let" that bullshit happen to her. But if his work with Diana could have that quality to it, it might not reflect on Teena at all. Money is money is money honey. Motown actually brought the initial lawsuit against T (I think because she was recording/signed with EPIC at a time when she had another year on her contract with Motown) she countersued and won. Rick always said she could be "hard headed." (I think this means "she wouldn't put up with my player bullshit.")

Too bad about El and his family. They certainly deserve better than that considering what brillance they gave to Motown. I think it will be a Switch weekend for me.

That's why I'm still scratching my head at them talking about how much they "loved" each other. Probably because Teena REALLY didn't take no shit...

Signing away publishing rights was pretty standard back in the day. It was nothing stupid or moronic about it, it was a standard practice back then for almost all record labels. And yes, even Smokey talked about how he went to Berry and asked to buy back his rights and Berry basically told him And Stevie had a co-publishing deal during his 70ss-80s run, so Berry was and still is getting paid like a mug off all those Stevie remakes everyone did. And then some years ago Berry sold away HALF of Jobete to EMI for $132million. HALF! $132million!

Adisa said:

Signing away publishing rights was pretty standard back in the day. It was nothing stupid or moronic about it, it was a standard practice back then for almost all record labels. And yes, even Smokey talked about how he went to Berry and asked to buy back his rights and Berry basically told him And Stevie had a co-publishing deal during his 70ss-80s run, so Berry was and still is getting paid like a mug off all those Stevie remakes everyone did. And then some years ago Berry sold away HALF of Jobete to EMI for $132million. HALF! $132million!

Wait I thought it was $80 million.

About Smokey, it's interesting you bring that up because it was he who told Berry to sell Motown.

Timmy84 said:

Adisa said:

Signing away publishing rights was pretty standard back in the day. It was nothing stupid or moronic about it, it was a standard practice back then for almost all record labels. And yes, even Smokey talked about how he went to Berry and asked to buy back his rights and Berry basically told him And Stevie had a co-publishing deal during his 70ss-80s run, so Berry was and still is getting paid like a mug off all those Stevie remakes everyone did. And then some years ago Berry sold away HALF of Jobete to EMI for $132million. HALF! $132million!

Wait I thought it was $80 million.

About Smokey, it's interesting you bring that up because it was he who told Berry to sell Motown.

Motown Corporation was one entity, which he sold for $60M in the late 80s. That the selling of the master recordings and trademarks. Jobete Publishing is a different entity, which owned the publishing rights to the actual songs, which he sold away half a little over decade ago if I'm correct.

Adisa said:

Timmy84 said:

Wait I thought it was $80 million.

About Smokey, it's interesting you bring that up because it was he who told Berry to sell Motown.

Motown Corporation was one entity, which he sold for $60M in the late 80s. That the selling of the master recordings and trademarks. Jobete Publishing is a different entity, which owned the publishing rights to the actual songs, which he sold away half a little over decade ago if I'm correct.

Hmmm I see.

Thanks for the correction, he did sell Motown Enterprises for $60 million in '88.

As for Smokey, I'm interested in what you say because I always believed Smokey was wealthy (since he practically wrote many of the label's early hits and all). Matter of fact I've always been curious to their relationship.

Adisa said:

Signing away publishing rights was pretty standard back in the day. It was nothing stupid or moronic about it, it was a standard practice back then for almost all record labels.

Wow, I never knew!! It just seems like such a dumb thing to do, signing your money away.

Count me in as one of those people who have always wondered how Teena and Berry remained such great friends after she countersued his ass and won.

W W! Interesting information you all provided- I didn't know all that was going on with Motown. I got a taste

of it after watching -Unsung- on Teena Marie. I'm glad she fought back- It couldn't have been just a ' standard practice'- What about the Jacksons?

That would make me so if I heard other artist sample MY music -my sound-my art-

your hard work and knowing they are getting paid-blowing up on the charts-getting awards

etc.

It's such a longggggggg list on who sampled Debarge music.

Lot of these talented artist that are wanting to make $ are so quick to sign the contract that they don' t understand what they agreed

to until it's too late- .

RosesRred said:

W W! Interesting information you all provided- I didn't know all that was going on with Motown. I got a taste

of it after watching -Unsung- on Teena Marie. I'm glad she fought back- It couldn't have been just a ' standard practice'- What about the Jacksons?

That would make me so if I heard other artist sample MY music -my sound-my art-

your hard work and knowing they are getting paid-blowing up on the charts-getting awards

etc.

It's such a longggggggg list on who sampled Debarge music.

Lot of these talented artist that are wanting to make $ are so quick to sign the contract that they don' t understand what they agreed

to until it's too late- .

The rights to the name Jackson 5 is still in Gordy's name and he co-owns the rights to their material. He and Universal get paid from their work. None of the brothers own shit they created besides their Epic material, which was split between five of them (I don't think Jermaine gets the same pay the other brothers do).

Timmy84 said:

The rights to the name Jackson 5 is still in Gordy's name and he co-owns the rights to their material. He and Universal get paid from their work. None of the brothers own shit they created besides their Epic material, which was split between five of them (I don't think Jermaine gets the same pay the other brothers do).

-- I look at Mr. Gordy in a whole different way now. I know he's not the only one that carries on business this way.

a small part in the book:

Ain't Too Proud to Beg: The Troubled Lives and Enduring Soul of the Temptations

By Mark Ribowsky

STARTING WITH PAGE 162: he talks about how gordy handled the money of many signed to motown

http://books.google.com/b...PA162&

on page 163-- he wondered where their money went? He can't blame it all on Ruffin's drug habit. Did they bother to ask Gordy?

[Edited 1/7/11 14:13pm]

MidniteMagnet said:

It would take a moron to sign away his or her publishing rights. I mean, cmon! I don't understand why ANYONE would EVER do that. It goes against all logic.

How do you think that people like Paul McCartney & Michael Jackson can buy song copyrights? Because the songwriters never owned them. Some people were songwriters for hire, which means they worked for a label and the label owned the tunes. In other cases label owners, the performer's manager, or other people (ie. mafia members) would add their names to songwriting credits to get paid. B.B. King had this problem in the 1950s with the Bihari brothers. If songwiters wanted Elvis Presley to record their tunes, Colonel Parker insisted they signed over the publishing to him (Elvis) or forget it. The songwriter still made more money and/or got recognition to write for other acts this way, than if the song was not recorded at all or by an act that is not popular. Pre 1970's a lot of the record business (and the entire US entertainment industry for that matter) was run by the mafia behind the scenes. If the mafia said you had to sign over your rights, you did it or else. It was rumored that Sam Cooke's murder was a mafia hit because he refused to give them his record label and publishing rights and the official story was a coverup. There were also rumors in the 60's that Motown had mob connections, but Berry Gordy denied this. It was common knowledge that the Rat Pack (Frank, Sammy, etc.) worked for the mafia. If you wanted to work in Las Vegas back then, an act had to go through them. A lot of the distribution and wholesale outlets the record labels used were mob run too.

It's not uncommon for songwriters even in 2011 to be signed to a publishing deal. its like running your own record label: You could make more starting out doing it on your own. But the major corporation has a lot more pull and influence. It's like, write and record a bunch of demos, try to get them to film studios or recording artists, or sign to say EMI, have them do the work, pay me a writers fee and royalties. As Mickey already stated, even today you're gonna get hosed more than likely in that somebody is gonna wanna stake and take some of your money if you want to get your song recorded. So, nothing's really changed in that regard. Same shit, different era really.

I can't stand behind that... I always thought labels raped artists' trusts.

MickyDolenz said:

MidniteMagnet said:

It would take a moron to sign away his or her publishing rights. I mean, cmon! I don't understand why ANYONE would EVER do that. It goes against all logic.

How do you think that people like Paul McCartney & Michael Jackson can buy song copyrights? Because the songwriters never owned them. Some people were songwriters for hire, which means they worked for a label and the label owned the tunes. In other cases label owners, the performer's manager, or other people (ie. mafia members) would add their names to songwriting credits to get paid. B.B. King had this problem in the 1950s with the Bihari brothers. If songwiters wanted Elvis Presley to record their tunes, Colonel Parker insisted they signed over the publishing to him (Elvis) or forget it. The songwriter still made more money and/or got recognition to write for other acts this way, than if the song was not recorded at all or by an act that is not popular. Pre 1970's a lot of the record business (and the entire US entertainment industry for that matter) was run by the mafia behind the scenes. If the mafia said you had to sign over your rights, you did it or else. It was rumored that Sam Cooke's murder was a mafia hit because he refused to give them his record label and publishing rights and the official story was a coverup. There were also rumors in the 60's that Motown had mob connections, but Berry Gordy denied this. It was common knowledge that the Rat Pack (Frank, Sammy, etc.) worked for the mafia. If you wanted to work in Las Vegas back then, an act had to go through them. A lot of the distribution and wholesale outlets the record labels used were mob run too.

This is how Jackie Wilson got in trouble. Apparently his label boss or executives were all part of the Mafia and when he complained, he almost got thrown off a balcony.

That's why I'm still scratching my head at them talking about how much they "loved" each other. Probably because Teena REALLY didn't take no shit...

I don't know how easy it was, but they say time heals all wounds. My understanding is that he attended one of her shows in the early 90s and went backstage and that was it. I think that a little after that she sang at his house for a Christmas party and also presented him with a 6 foot painting that she had done of him. (If I am correct that it was her hand on the work - o my, it was gorgeous - the girl could paint.) I think that you can see the painting in her Unsung episode; a picture of her presenting him with the painting was posted on her old website. Alia was on her leg and appeared to be about 4 years old at the time. When she first signed to Motown Teena moved into Berry's brother Fuller's house. Fuller was married to Tee's manager and Jill's mom, Winnie Martin. She lived there for about three years is my understanding. So, those are some fertile waters, and sometime when family puts the shit behind them it is because they are really interested in forgiveness and reunification and love.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...CM2oAWgtro This clip of Iris Gordy presenting Teena with a R & B Foundation Award should contribut toward clarity.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related This is just great fun and singing. Betty Wright is a bit much...but we love her.

allsmutaside said:

That's why I'm still scratching my head at them talking about how much they "loved" each other. Probably because Teena REALLY didn't take no shit...

I don't know how easy it was, but they say time heals all wounds. My understanding is that he attended one of her shows in the early 90s and went backstage and that was it. I think that a little after that she sang at his house for a Christmas party and also presented him with a 6 foot painting that she had done of him. (If I am correct that it was her hand on the work - o my, it was gorgeous - the girl could paint.) I think that you can see the painting in her Unsung episode; a picture of her presenting him with the painting was posted on her old website. Alia was on her leg and appeared to be about 4 years old at the time. When she first signed to Motown Teena moved into Berry's brother Fuller's house. Fuller was married to Tee's manager and Jill's mom, Winnie Martin. She lived there for about three years is my understanding. So, those are some fertile waters, and sometime when family puts the shit behind them it is because they are really interested in forgiveness and reunification and love.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...CM2oAWgtro This clip of Iris Gordy presenting Teena with a R & B Foundation Award should contribut toward clarity.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related This is just great fun and singing. Betty Wright is a bit much...but we love her.

Yeah I saw the painting. Teena was so talented.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

How do you think that people like Paul McCartney & Michael Jackson can buy song copyrights? Because the songwriters never owned them. Some people were songwriters for hire, which means they worked for a label and the label owned the tunes. In other cases label owners, the performer's manager, or other people (ie. mafia members) would add their names to songwriting credits to get paid. B.B. King had this problem in the 1950s with the Bihari brothers. If songwiters wanted Elvis Presley to record their tunes, Colonel Parker insisted they signed over the publishing to him (Elvis) or forget it. The songwriter still made more money and/or got recognition to write for other acts this way, than if the song was not recorded at all or by an act that is not popular. Pre 1970's a lot of the record business (and the entire US entertainment industry for that matter) was run by the mafia behind the scenes. If the mafia said you had to sign over your rights, you did it or else. It was rumored that Sam Cooke's murder was a mafia hit because he refused to give them his record label and publishing rights and the official story was a coverup. There were also rumors in the 60's that Motown had mob connections, but Berry Gordy denied this. It was common knowledge that the Rat Pack (Frank, Sammy, etc.) worked for the mafia. If you wanted to work in Las Vegas back then, an act had to go through them. A lot of the distribution and wholesale outlets the record labels used were mob run too.

This is how Jackie Wilson got in trouble. Apparently his label boss or executives were all part of the Mafia and when he complained, he almost got thrown off a balcony.

The infamous Brunswick Records ran by Nat Tarnopol. The story was that Jackie wanted to leave and go to Motown since his contract expired, but was "convinced" to resign. Eugene Record asked Nat for a better royalty rate and was beat up by Nat's goons. Stax Records had a wannabe gangster, a street thug named Johnny Baylor (not 'Taylor' the singer). He was originally the manager of Luther Ingram. He started to ignore Luther's business once he (Johnny) got into Stax, but wouldn't let Luther go and pretty much let his career die. It was said that part of the label's downfall was due to his antics.