Unholyalliance said:

errant said:

Here are a couple of questions, if you don't believe the people named in the letter who worked closely with Michael throughout the years or 2 independent forensics teams, or the people that were actually in the studio recording the songs with Michael:

Many of these points have been discussed here quite frequently in the last couple of MJ threads. I would, highly, recommend doing a thread search and reading through them. I think it would really give you a better understanding of what a lot us are having an issues with rather than just slapping the 'crazy' generalization on all of us which is a little unfair.

Honestly, I don't care enough to do that. Answer or don't answer the questions I asked.

[Edited 12/14/10 22:54pm]

errant said:

Honestly, I don't care enough to do that. Answer or don't answer the questions I asked.

There you go.

Swa said:

Jackson songs needed 'Digital Enhancement'.

According to famed producer Teddy Riley, one of the main producers on the posthumous Michael Jackson album, "Michael," which drops today (Dec. 14), the late King of Pop's vocal tracks required considerable digital enhancement.

"I had to do more processing to the voice, which is why people were asking about the authenticity of his voice," Riley, who worked with Jackson on his 1991 album "Dangerous," told Reuters Monday. "We had to do what we had to do to make ... his voice work with the actual music."'

Riley reveals that producers used Melodyne technology to get the raw vocals in key.

"With the Melodyne we actually move the (pitch) up which is the reason why some of the vibrato sounds a little off or processed, over-processed," Riley added. "We truly apologize for that happening, but you are still hearing the true Michael Jackson."

"...I know it's great material, I know that it needs to be out, I know that the legacy needs to continue because he's such a great person, and there's more to come," continued Riley, who worked on three of the 10 songs on the album -- "Hollywood Tonight," "Monster" and "Breaking News" -- and who said that he would like to partake in producing future Jackson albums if they should come to fruition.

The original demo vocals for "monster" MJ is singing much slower so Riley had to speed the vocal up to match the track. Makes since.

I know many here won't agree, but the "monster" track is very much needed for this album because it will be the albums biggest mainstream hit and bring in the sales.

Non fans are loving this track

ShadeoViolet said:

If you doubt the authenticity of Michael's vocals, you must be prepared to refute the claims made by this man.

They've been commented on weeks ago on this site and on others. There's nothing of substantial evidence there. They're simply saying "people have confirmed it" and then proceeding to offer an information overload, which tends to convince the readers that aren't aware of such rhetoric. Nothing of what these "experts" have actually stated on the material is mentioned in the response. Neither is anything of what what the Jackson family and other members of the estate felt about those "expert opinions" mentioned. Taryll Jackson and Cory Rooney were also in those meetings and according to them the word choices are highly exaggerated and plain false at parts. That's probably the reason why you should always carry a small recorder with you in meetings and click on the "record button" whenever you think something fishy is going on.

Notice also that he isn't making any claims about the authenticity of the finished product, which is what everyone has a problem with. Who knows what the source material was like - we're not going to hear it - but it's clearly not Michael Jackson on those three released songs. So It's just lawyer speak from start to finish. When someone uses an expression like "overwhelming evidence" and doesn't offer any of that evidence for others to see you can be pretty sure they are bullshitting. How could there even be "overwhelming evidence" when so many people have been doubting their authenticity? The "evidence" is there for everybody to hear.

You want an expert opinion? Ask Militant or anyone else that has worked in a recording studio and knows what he's talking about.

So, most likely, rhetoric and plain lies. They simply got too much to lose at this point by admitting that the tracks aren't genuine.

Riley reveals that producers used Melodyne technology to get the raw vocals in key.

"With the Melodyne we actually move the (pitch) up which is the reason why some of the vibrato sounds a little off or processed, over-processed," Riley added. "We truly apologize for that happening, but you are still hearing the true Michael Jackson."

That's what's happening on "Hollywood Tonight" (although it isn't just "up", it's "down" as well). The other Three Riley-produced tracks are a different deal altogether. It's hardly just about the "vibrato" either. The tone's just too different. Why did they feel the need to add sampled breath noises and adlibs from other songs to those other songs? Because they wanted to make them more convincing, that's why. The saddest part is that the samples do not even come from the very sessions that Michael Jackson supposedly did with the Cascios, or even from vault material. They seem to be simply from the a cappella tracks that have been floating around on the internet for ages.

errant, you've missed a million epic posts by me and others, many in just the previous MJ thread, breaking down to every last detail all available evidence and point as to why these songs aren't michael, answers to the questions you just posted plus a lot more.

i'm not going to post all that stuff AGAIN. You want answers, the answers are there, go read them if you care that much.

but if you're just going to accuse long term MJ fans who know these songs aren't real of being "fanbots" or whatever it was you said, then i'm not going to go out of my way to direct you towards the truth, because it sounds from your tone that you're not really interested in hearing it and are going to stick with your incorrect preconceptions regardless, as others have done.

The difference between "Hollywood Tonight" and the Cascio songs is that, even with all the digital processing and manipulation, Melodyne'd (which I use a lot and know exactly how it works and how it makes people sound) and auto-tuned vocals...... it still sounds like Michael.

And I want you guys to know something.... in every single recording session I've ever done, in studios all over the world, even on the most electronic of songs, I've never heard any chain or combination of vocal processing, editing, tempo changes, or anything, that makes one person's voice COMPLETELY unrecognizable from anything and everything else they've ever done. Sorry, believers, but in the real world this does not happen. So Teddy is trying to bullshit people who don't know any better. "Monster" was recorded within (at a push) 15BPM of what you're hearing. AT MOST. And he thinks people don't know the effect speeding up vocals has? I speed up vocals all the time if I'm working on dancier, edgier remixes of songs for people or sampling old recordings to make hip-hop stuff. It sounds exactly like what you'd expect - the same person singing faster. Not a different person completely, which is what the lead vocals on the Cascio songs sound like. I could speed up any MJ song right now and change the melody with Melodyne and you'd still be able to obviously tell that's it Michael Jackson singing. The same way "2000 Watts" was obviously Michael Jackson to me the first time I heard it, and doesn't need questioning.

Anyway. My CD and T-Shirt just showed up. Little unimpressed with the design and structure of the booklet. The plain blue of the CD, the inlay and the back of the booklet is just a little dull. Michael's albums always had more nuance than this, there was always a layer of depth there that just isn't present in this design, anywhere. And it's not just becaue Michael ain't here to do it himself, it's also that there's no creativity coming from anywhere. Something feels rushed. It doesn't seem like this was a labor of love by anyone. There's so much they could have done. What's with all the blank space? You couldn't put any quotes there by Michael? You couldn't have ran a competition for a fan to have some input or to have a dedication to Michael there by someone that loved him? You couldn't, have, at the very least, have ONE actual PHOTOGRAPH of Michael on there? Not even a single quote by anyone that worked on the album about what Michael meant to them? Hell I'd take a quote from 50 Cent about what Michael meant to him even though the song he's on ain't even Michael singing. I'd take a quote from Orianthi. Even Teddy. Akon. Lenny. Neff-U. ANYTHING! Really, how hard is this? Are they making any effort at all?

You know, there's always going to be disagreements about who should be running the Estate, who should be involved, and whatnot. But, to me, I feel like if Katherine and some other family members had a bit more involvement, this whole thing would feel like it was done with love. Not just a cash-grab for some lawyers and music producers.

Tupac's Estate is controlled by his mother, Afeni Shakur. And, while there's certainly been some low points, (a few shady lawyers and bad ideas like getting Eminem to produce a whole album come to mind), overall, every project did feel like it was done with love and respect and the intent of keeping Tupac's legacy alive. Since he died, we've had at least 10 discs of posthumous material. And with some exceptions like the Eminem-produced album I mentioned, most of it has been of a VERY high quality. The remixes are done tastefully. Some are kept more or less in their original forum with a few minor changes. And even in the case of the one Em did, every album had booklets and artwork and designs where you could literally feel the love and respect that everyone involved had for the artist. I'm deadly serious. I'm sure some of you own some Tupac albums and can look for yourselves. Endless tributes, letters from his mother to the fans, great unreleased photos, photo montages of 'Pac with artists and producers involved, detailed timelines of his albums, the whole works.

10 albums. Another one coming within the next year if all goes to plan. Tupac's professional career in his lifetime, from the release date of his debut solo album "2Pacalypse Now" to his death in 1996, was less than 5 years.

Michael may not have been a studio addict like 'Pac. But we're talking about a man whose professional career lasted 40 years. And was the most famous man of all time. One of the most photographed people in history. A man loved by countless millions of people. And yet this whole project feels cold. Something about the whole thing feels emotionless. I'm looking at this packaging, thinking about how in the fuck the Estate and Sony have managed to fuck this whole thing up to where they've upset and disappointed so many people...... and I'm thinking to myself....... WHERE IS THE MOTHERFUCKING LOVE? Watch the "Hold My Hand" video. Michael is BARELY in it. You know what's completely crazy? The Estate could have fans input for free. They don't even gotta ask, turn on a damn computer, get online and read some motherfucking forums rather than sending people copyright takedown links and hiring web sheriff. I'm pretty sure that every single person here could have thought of one better idea for the album booklet/inlay than "Let's just leave a whole bunch of blank space and have one random ass painting and some scans of a few notes and that'll do."

This whole situation has broken my heart.

[Edited 12/15/10 4:58am]

[Edited 12/15/10 4:59am]

Unholyalliance said:

errant said:

We all saw that shopping spree in the mall in Las Vegas where he was buying up all that tacky "art."

Whether or not you think that the art was 'tacky' or 'gaudy' has no bearing on this artist's lack of compositional skills.

errant said:

Here are a couple of questions, if you don't believe the people named in the letter who worked closely with Michael throughout the years or 2 independent forensics teams, or the people that were actually in the studio recording the songs with Michael:

Many of these points have been discussed here quite frequently in the last couple of MJ threads. I would, highly, recommend doing a thread search and reading through them. I think it would really give you a better understanding of what a lot us are having an issues with rather than just slapping the 'crazy' generalization on all of us which is a little unfair.

errant, if you know of a good place to check out the findings of the suppossed experts who validated that it was Mike's voice, I'd be glad to check it out. However, i never suspend critical faculties, I trust my ears and my ears tell me that it's not even close to michaels voice. I don't trust experts with an axe to grind one way or the other, here in seattle a cop got off after being investigated for a racially motivated attack on a kid, the "experts" came to their conclusions, the public came to theirs, it's all on video tape for all to see and here, you don't need experts all they do is cover the power's that be's asses. It's what they are hired for.

Militant said:

The difference between "Hollywood Tonight" and the Cascio songs is that, even with all the digital processing and manipulation, Melodyne'd (which I use a lot and know exactly how it works and how it makes people sound) and auto-tuned vocals...... it still sounds like Michael.

And I want you guys to know something.... in every single recording session I've ever done, in studios all over the world, even on the most electronic of songs, I've never heard any chain or combination of vocal processing, editing, tempo changes, or anything, that makes one person's voice COMPLETELY unrecognizable from anything and everything else they've ever done. Sorry, believers, but in the real world this does not happen. So Teddy is trying to bullshit people who don't know any better. "Monster" was recorded within (at a push) 15BPM of what you're hearing. AT MOST. And he thinks people don't know the effect speeding up vocals has? I speed up vocals all the time if I'm working on dancier, edgier remixes of songs for people or sampling old recordings to make hip-hop stuff. It sounds exactly like what you'd expect - the same person singing faster. Not a different person completely, which is what the lead vocals on the Cascio songs sound like. I could speed up any MJ song right now and change the melody with Melodyne and you'd still be able to obviously tell that's it Michael Jackson singing. The same way "2000 Watts" was obviously Michael Jackson to me the first time I heard it, and doesn't need questioning.

Anyway. My CD and T-Shirt just showed up. Little unimpressed with the design and structure of the booklet. The plain blue of the CD, the inlay and the back of the booklet is just a little dull. Michael's albums always had more nuance than this, there was always a layer of depth there that just isn't present in this design, anywhere. And it's not just becaue Michael ain't here to do it himself, it's also that there's no creativity coming from anywhere. Something feels rushed. It doesn't seem like this was a labor of love by anyone. There's so much they could have done. What's with all the blank space? You couldn't put any quotes there by Michael? You couldn't have ran a competition for a fan to have some input or to have a dedication to Michael there by someone that loved him? You couldn't, have, at the very least, have ONE actual PHOTOGRAPH of Michael on there? Not even a single quote by anyone that worked on the album about what Michael meant to them? Hell I'd take a quote from 50 Cent about what Michael meant to him even though the song he's on ain't even Michael singing. I'd take a quote from Orianthi. Even Teddy. Akon. Lenny. Neff-U. ANYTHING! Really, how hard is this? Are they making any effort at all?

You know, there's always going to be disagreements about who should be running the Estate, who should be involved, and whatnot. But, to me, I feel like if Katherine and some other family members had a bit more involvement, this whole thing would feel like it was done with love. Not just a cash-grab for some lawyers and music producers.

Tupac's Estate is controlled by his mother, Afeni Shakur. And, while there's certainly been some low points, (a few shady lawyers and bad ideas like getting Eminem to produce a whole album come to mind), overall, every project did feel like it was done with love and respect and the intent of keeping Tupac's legacy alive. Since he died, we've had at least 10 discs of posthumous material. And with some exceptions like the Eminem-produced album I mentioned, most of it has been of a VERY high quality. The remixes are done tastefully. Some are kept more or less in their original forum with a few minor changes. And even in the case of the one Em did, every album had booklets and artwork and designs where you could literally feel the love and respect that everyone involved had for the artist. I'm deadly serious. I'm sure some of you own some Tupac albums and can look for yourselves. Endless tributes, letters from his mother to the fans, great unreleased photos, photo montages of 'Pac with artists and producers involved, detailed timelines of his albums, the whole works.

10 albums. Another one coming within the next year if all goes to plan. Tupac's professional career in his lifetime, from the release date of his debut solo album "2Pacalypse Now" to his death in 1996, was less than 5 years.

Michael may not have been a studio addict like 'Pac. But we're talking about a man whose professional career lasted 40 years. And was the most famous man of all time. One of the most photographed people in history. A man loved by countless millions of people. And yet this whole project feels cold. Something about the whole thing feels emotionless. I'm looking at this packaging, thinking about how in the fuck the Estate and Sony have managed to fuck this whole thing up to where they've upset and disappointed so many people...... and I'm thinking to myself....... WHERE IS THE MOTHERFUCKING LOVE? Watch the "Hold My Hand" video. Michael is BARELY in it. You know what's completely crazy? The Estate could have fans input for free. They don't even gotta ask, turn on a damn computer, get online and read some motherfucking forums rather than sending people copyright takedown links and hiring web sheriff. I'm pretty sure that every single person here could have thought of one better idea for the album booklet/inlay than "Let's just leave a whole bunch of blank space and have one random ass painting and some scans of a few notes and that'll do."

This whole situation has broken my heart.

[Edited 12/15/10 4:58am]

[Edited 12/15/10 4:59am]

Spot on on all points. Props.

As for Tupac and Afeni, yeah I agree, the really bad project was that Loyal to the Game Eminem project...The worst part to me was making Pac's voice fit the beat instead of the beat fitting Tupac. Guess what though? You could still tell it was Tupac even though the vocal speed had been altered...No matter what...It was Tupac. With Michael...No matter what they do on those 3 joints....it still don't sound like Michael Jackson and will never.

Did a quick instrumental mix of Best Of Joy...Get it while it's hot, or PM me.

errant said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Why?

it seems rather desperate to me. desperate for what, I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what they think they're accomplishing, but historically, there is always some segment of MJ's fanbase willing to grab any convoluted conspiracy theory with both hands and run with it.

where's the proof?

I guess his mother and his children are fanbots and love conspiracies too then right? The four who knew him the best...knew his voice the most...

What do you think about this interview?

http://thatgrapejuice.net/2010/12/exclusive-teddy-riley-talks-michael-jackson-album-video/

MJ was Gr8. But there r no Kings on this earth only Prince's..............

Unholyalliance said:

ShadeoViolet said:

If you doubt the authenticity of Michael's vocals, you must be prepared to refute the claims made by this man.

Howard Weitzman, Esq.

Attorney for the Estate Of Michael Jackson

The man is an attorney of the estate. The SAME estate who gave permission to Sony, of all people, to release those tracks.

He does not get paid to refute the claims of the executors of the estate. If he did, he would be fired.

Okay. So what about all the MANY people he named who are apparently supporting his claims? Are they all liars? Really?

ChocolateBox777 said:

MJ was Gr8. But there r no Kings on this earth only Prince's..............

Prince was great too. In the 80's.

Marrk said:

ChocolateBox777 said:

MJ was Gr8. But there r no Kings on this earth only Prince's..............

Prince was great too. In the 80's.

ChocolateBox777 said:

MJ was Gr8. But there r no Kings on this earth only Prince's..............

1984 called. They want their rivalry back

Jesus Christ...

ShadeoViolet said:

Okay. So what about all the MANY people he named who are apparently supporting his claims? Are they all liars? Really?

It's a little more complex than that.

What I find interesting is that the people who realize it's not real have ALL spoken out, DIRECTLY, and in PUBLIC. 3T and Darkchild have done so on Twitter, Cory Rooney on Facebook.

Out of all the people claiming it's real, only Teddy has done so directly. Nobody else mentioned in that letter from the Estate has done so. So we don't have their word, we only have Weitzman's word about this meeting.... and furthermore? Cory Rooney was actually AT that meeting and says Weitzman's story is bullshit and what he said (all those people agreeing it was MJ) didn't happen at all.

Taryll posted ACTUAL quotes of Teddy admitting to him the songs weren't real. Half the time Teddy isn't responding, he just keeps going on about how "the truth will come out" and being vague. And of course, his credibility is shot to pieces now because he said that he thinks Michael is alive.

The bottom line is you can only take someone seriously if you're hearing directly from them. So, until I hear directly from Bruce Swedien, Dr Freeze etc, saying they think it's Michael, I'm not going to trust Howard freakin Weitzman and his bogus letter that has already been called out by at least two people at the meeting - Cory and Taryll.

Militant said:

ShadeoViolet said:

Okay. So what about all the MANY people he named who are apparently supporting his claims? Are they all liars? Really?

It's a little more complex than that.

What I find interesting is that the people who realize it's not real have ALL spoken out, DIRECTLY, and in PUBLIC. 3T and Darkchild have done so on Twitter, Cory Rooney on Facebook.

Out of all the people claiming it's real, only Teddy has done so directly. Nobody else mentioned in that letter from the Estate has done so. So we don't have their word, we only have Weitzman's word about this meeting.... and furthermore? Cory Rooney was actually AT that meeting and says Weitzman's story is bullshit and what he said (all those people agreeing it was MJ) didn't happen at all.

Taryll posted ACTUAL quotes of Teddy admitting to him the songs weren't real. Half the time Teddy isn't responding, he just keeps going on about how "the truth will come out" and being vague. And of course, his credibility is shot to pieces now because he said that he thinks Michael is alive.

The bottom line is you can only take someone seriously if you're hearing directly from them. So, until I hear directly from Bruce Swedien, Dr Freeze etc, saying they think it's Michael, I'm not going to trust Howard freakin Weitzman and his bogus letter that has already been called out by at least two people at the meeting - Cory and Taryll.

Yeah but it's not like people with a vested interest in something ever lie now is it? Speaking of which have they found those WMD's in Iraq yet?

Ok stupid joke, but you have a point about none of them going public. Would be interesting if people asked them on the record if they would be willing to commit to saying it's MJ, or even agree with this letter...

Like Militant said, those folks ain't gonna provide SHIT. I swear next year we may still be talking about this and "no proof" would be presented.

And the only reason why anyone would go along with it has something to do with GREEN PAPER. Not from their heart and soul or whatever it is they think they pulled to "honor" their "friend".

But like y'all said, believe it's him, knock yourself out. But screaming at it to others who don't believe it won't cut it.

Militant said:

ShadeoViolet said:

Okay. So what about all the MANY people he named who are apparently supporting his claims? Are they all liars? Really?

It's a little more complex than that.

What I find interesting is that the people who realize it's not real have ALL spoken out, DIRECTLY, and in PUBLIC. 3T and Darkchild have done so on Twitter, Cory Rooney on Facebook.

Out of all the people claiming it's real, only Teddy has done so directly. Nobody else mentioned in that letter from the Estate has done so. So we don't have their word, we only have Weitzman's word about this meeting.... and furthermore? Cory Rooney was actually AT that meeting and says Weitzman's story is bullshit and what he said (all those people agreeing it was MJ) didn't happen at all.

Taryll posted ACTUAL quotes of Teddy admitting to him the songs weren't real. Half the time Teddy isn't responding, he just keeps going on about how "the truth will come out" and being vague. And of course, his credibility is shot to pieces now because he said that he thinks Michael is alive.

The bottom line is you can only take someone seriously if you're hearing directly from them. So, until I hear directly from Bruce Swedien, Dr Freeze etc, saying they think it's Michael, I'm not going to trust Howard freakin Weitzman and his bogus letter that has already been called out by at least two people at the meeting - Cory and Taryll.

Timmy84 said:

Like Militant said, those folks ain't gonna provide SHIT. I swear next year we may still be talking about this and "no proof" would be presented.

And the only reason why anyone would go along with it has something to do with GREEN PAPER. Not from their heart and soul or whatever it is they think they pulled to "honor" their "friend".

This is all the answer anyone ever needs:

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur.com/DKLDv.jpg[/img:$uid]

Unholyalliance said:

Timmy84 said:

Like Militant said, those folks ain't gonna provide SHIT. I swear next year we may still be talking about this and "no proof" would be presented.

And the only reason why anyone would go along with it has something to do with GREEN PAPER. Not from their heart and soul or whatever it is they think they pulled to "honor" their "friend".

This is all the answer anyone ever needs:

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur.com/DKLDv.jpg[/img:$uid]

Pretty much.

Militant said:

ShadeoViolet said:

Okay. So what about all the MANY people he named who are apparently supporting his claims? Are they all liars? Really?

It's a little more complex than that.

What I find interesting is that the people who realize it's not real have ALL spoken out, DIRECTLY, and in PUBLIC. 3T and Darkchild have done so on Twitter, Cory Rooney on Facebook.

Out of all the people claiming it's real, only Teddy has done so directly. Nobody else mentioned in that letter from the Estate has done so. So we don't have their word, we only have Weitzman's word about this meeting.... and furthermore? Cory Rooney was actually AT that meeting and says Weitzman's story is bullshit and what he said (all those people agreeing it was MJ) didn't happen at all.

It could just be that the people named in the letter are smart enough to not let themselves get bogged down in fans and their usual delusional conspiracy theories.

paisleypark4 said:

Militant said:

It's a little more complex than that.

What I find interesting is that the people who realize it's not real have ALL spoken out, DIRECTLY, and in PUBLIC. 3T and Darkchild have done so on Twitter, Cory Rooney on Facebook.

Out of all the people claiming it's real, only Teddy has done so directly. Nobody else mentioned in that letter from the Estate has done so. So we don't have their word, we only have Weitzman's word about this meeting.... and furthermore? Cory Rooney was actually AT that meeting and says Weitzman's story is bullshit and what he said (all those people agreeing it was MJ) didn't happen at all.

Taryll posted ACTUAL quotes of Teddy admitting to him the songs weren't real. Half the time Teddy isn't responding, he just keeps going on about how "the truth will come out" and being vague. And of course, his credibility is shot to pieces now because he said that he thinks Michael is alive.

The bottom line is you can only take someone seriously if you're hearing directly from them. So, until I hear directly from Bruce Swedien, Dr Freeze etc, saying they think it's Michael, I'm not going to trust Howard freakin Weitzman and his bogus letter that has already been called out by at least two people at the meeting - Cory and Taryll.

That's true I remember on the first MJ threads the twitter posts were floating all around .....I have to ask what it Taryll and Corey's Twitter names? I should go ahead and follew them and keep updated.

twitter.com/taryll and twitter.com/coryrooney - but mosts of corys posts on the subject were on his facebook which is here --> http://www.facebook.com/p...=610474054

[img:$uid]http://img42.im.../img:$uid]

Militant said:

errant, you've missed a million epic posts by me and others,

"epic" - yeah, I bet.

save me the time. did anyone come up with some proof that Michael's not singing them or did anyone come up with any sort of explanation as to why Sony or the Estate would waste their time with fake vocals? a recap will suffice.

@errant, moving away from the topic, did you buy the album yet?

dag said:

[img:$uid]http://img42.im.../img:$uid]

Please post more pictures, dag.